The Problem posed by Artificial Intelligence to the non believers

[sangom]

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Dear Sangom Ji,

You have touched upon the concept of Collective Karma and Individual Karma in your reply when you are speaking about Karmic Layers.

I have this info regarding Collective Karma which could help us understand it better.


Taken from the article:

Collective Karma

Theosophy:- Karma


Before completing this imperfect study we must consider what is termed Collective Karma, the complex into which are woven the results of the collective thoughts, desires and activities of groups, whether large or small.

The principles at work are the same, but the factors are far more numerous, and this multiplicity immensely increases the difficulty of understanding the effects.

The idea of considering a group as a larger individual is not alien from modern science, and such larger individuals generate karma along lines similar to those which we have been studying. A family, a nation, a sub-race, a race, are all but larger individuals, each having a past behind it, the creator of its present, each with a future ahead of it, now in course of creation.

An ego coming into such a larger individual must share in its general karma; his own special karma has brought him into it, and must be worked out within it, the larger karma often offering conditions which enable the smaller to act.

Smt. Renukaji,

For a brief period (a few years) I had studied (rather attempted to study) Theosophy in all earnestness, due to my father-in-law's association with the Theosophical Lodge. Somehow their claims of superhuman abilities and infallibility, for some of their prolific writers did not quite gel with me. I am aware that they have this concept of "collective" Karma, etc., and, if my memory serves me right, there was one line of thought that corruption in India was a result of a gargantuan collective Karma and will take ages to work itself out, etc.

When even a personality like Lord Krishna stops short of saying anything about how the Law of Karma operates and just says "mā phaleṣu kadāca na", I do not think we should venture into further details of the Law of Karma.

 

[sangom]

Exactly, Shri Sravna!!!!

"I-consciousness" = Soul


Each "I-consciousness"/Soul is different with its karmic debts and as such each has its own understanding, perceptions, realizations, maturity, intentions and attitude, all inbuilt in due process of learning, going through brith-death-birth cycle.

Mere humans life revolves around "I consciousness" and the force/energy that makes sense of "I consciousness" is nothing but the Soul. No Soul = No "I consciousness". Call it as Soul OR "I consciousness", it is the one that accumulates Karma. This Soul / "I consciousness" which is the part of the purest universal consciousness can attempt towards identifying the self as part of the supreme consciousness while surviving with the core sense of "I" (separate/unique from all and everything in this physical world) and performing with the sense of prema, kama, krodha, lobha etc, being influenced by Maya of this creation.

Dear Shri Ravi, Shri Sravna,

I believe this will be treated as my submission to the comments of both of you, since you both seem to hold similar, if not identical, views.

If we hold that I-consciousness (I-con, for short)=soul and also that the force which makes sense (it is not clear to whom and about what this 'making sense' is for) is nothing but the Soul, are we not entering into a looping logic, because, according to you Soul= Icon?

Thus, we come to the situation that the I-con requires some outer agency to 'make sense to itself and this is nothing other than itself. Such an argument beats me.

Further, you say that each I-con is "different". How do we then explain the mahāvākyas which boldly state that the jīvātmā (=soul=I-con) is nothing but the Parabrahman? Possibly we will then have to propose that the Paramātmā resides within the jīvātmā. If so how correct it will be to say that this Paramātmā is unable to make sense to the jīvātmā?

These are some of my doubts, please.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Let me try to explain only the substantive part of Ravi's argument. This is, what you call as I-consciousness has an identity which is not destroyed at death and is really no different from what we commonly call as soul. This is because what you call as I-consciousness has to accumulate experiences and learn the Truth.

The above I think is what his argument is and also mine.

 

[sangom]

Sir, I have a slight non-understanding or difference of opinion on this aspect.

I feel there is an individual characteristic to this karma. Pl permit me to expand on the "pending case example" propounded by you (a very good example). No doubt the pending cases are the accumulation of my predecessors as also by me. Now at some point this "pending case" explodes and if I am that unfortunate person at that time, it explodes in my face.

For eg. during the Harshad Mehta case of Bank Securities fraud. the system was so overloaded that RBI was not in a position to make the changes due to transfer of government securities in the SGL ledger (also on account of non-availability/non-implementation of computerisation policy). Resultantly the bankers adopted the system of issue of "Bankers Receipt" which had many loopholes to make the fraud possible. The bankers receipt had come into existence at least two years before the scam exploded.

If I was the person at the receiving end when the scam exploded, and had to undergo all the trials and tribulations, this karma was "individually characterized" for me, whereas the others before me who had started and followed this system or those who were in other departments had escape without any stigma attached to them. But for my "karmic influences" (of the past), I probably would have not been placed in the unfortunate situation.

Shri Zebra,

You feel there must be an "individual characteristic" to karma, i.e., "I" cannot be punished for the Karma performed by "someone else" nor should someone else enjoy the beneficial results of my Karma. But you see, even in the "pending cases example", I feel the institution concerned is aiming only at "clearing" all the pending cases, and is not concerned about who clears which case. I hope you will agree.

I believe that in a somewhat similar way, the institution of the Karmic Law is not bothered as to which worldly entity clears off the accumulated Karmas left over by one person, let us say X. This Karmic load may be taken up subsequently by persons identified as Y, Z, P, Q, R, etc., in successive rebirths. Our confusion, and hence, reluctance to accept such a proposition, arises due to our inability to let go of our ego-sense or "I"-consciousness.

In the larger, universal view, each individual is nothing but a kind of "projection" of the Parabrahman in different physical bodies. There is no ego-sense at that level. Just as our banks are concerned mainly with clearing of all the pending cases, at the universal level, the only concern is about wearing out the accumulated Karmas, not by any particular person/entity.

Yet another problem which I have is about explaining the increase in world population, if we stick to the "one-person-one-ātmā" rule; how are new ātmās created then? And will such new ātmās have any Karma load with them at the start?

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Let me try to explain only the substantive part of Ravi's argument. This is, what you call as I-consciousness has an identity which is not destroyed at death and is really no different from what we commonly call as soul. This is because what you call as I-consciousness has to accumulate experiences and learn the Truth.

The above I think is what his argument is and also mine.

Dear Shri Sravna,

In that case how will the mahāvākyas like Tat tvam asi, Prajnānam brahma, etc., be explained? Kindly explain. Also, why then does the I-con does not remember its past identities?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

In that case how will the mahāvākyas like Tat tvam asi, Prajnānam brahma, etc., be explained? Kindly explain. Also, why then does the I-con does not remember its past identities?

Dear Shri Sangom,

Tat tvam Asi - Brahman minus maya and atman minus its avidya are identical (advaita interpretation)
Prajanam brahma- consciousness is brahman

The above are the meanings of the mahavakyas I got from the internet. I don't find any problem with my position according to the mahavakya tat tvam asi. The second mahavakya says consciousness is the ultimate truth. Again I do not have any problem with this. Everything is consciousness , brahman being supreme consciousness.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Let me try to explain only the substantive part of Ravi's argument. This is, what you call as I-consciousness has an identity which is not destroyed at death and is really no different from what we commonly call as soul. This is because what you call as I-consciousness has to accumulate experiences and learn the Truth.

The above I think is what his argument is and also mine.

Absolutely right Shri. Sravna. This is what is my argument.

"I-con"/Soul is the culprit. Culprit in the sense, it is alone responsible for accumulated karma load, being into "I" through out life span. "I con"/Soul never dies and can be the only Truth beyond time and place, that has the capability to get rid of "I ness" and become one with the Supreme Consciousness, in due course of it refinement process.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri Sravna,

..............Also, why then does the I-con does not remember its past identities?

Shri Sangom,

"I-con" though does not remember it's past identity, bearing the physical body with physical gross brain influenced by Maya, "I-con" still retains its sub conscious mind in tact as per what it has learned all the while and bears certain inborn traits/mentality and deeper consciousness, buried with-in.

"I-con" is posed with the challenges of the new environment without which perfect learning and purification can not be achieved.

Remembering past identities would not allow "I-con" to progress ahead and would make it stuck with the experiences and feelings of the past while continuing to survive in this physical world of Maya, at the present point of time.


Thus, "I-con" need to constantly work towards realization, experiencing everything and moderating perfectly. At a certain point of time, the whole some accumulated wisdom, composition and realizations would fructify and would enable "I-con" to identify itself as one with the Brahman. At that point of time, "I-con" will lose it's "I ness" and would lose the sense of exclusivity and separateness , being in the state of absolute bliss.


The above is what I understand and I believe in.

 

[prasad1]

I agree with Mr. Sangom's idea.
If you believe that soul is same as Brahman, you should not be able to taint it.
Gita chapter 13
yatha sarva-gatam saukshmyad
akasam nopalipyate
sarvatravasthito dehe
tathatma nopalipyate

The i-ness is an envelope on the soul and is different than the soul. I-ness is the ignorance or maya.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Zebra,

Yet another problem which I have is about explaining the increase in world population, if we stick to the "one-person-one-ātmā" rule; how are new ātmās created then? And will such new ātmās have any Karma load with them at the start?

Shri Sangom,


With what I could come across in couple of discourses during my teenage, it is not the rule that only the Souls that occupied Human Body once would again take an another human body in next birth.

The challenges of the kuli yuga are more and many souls are tend to occupy human body with Animal instinct and crooked mentality.

These souls do have their Karma load based on the basic instincts and other related activities of the species it has taken the form, before bearing the human body.


------

IMO, a person suffering in his life or enjoying in his life can not be based on accumulated karma of every unknown x, y, z unless otherwise it is based on justifiable reasons for an individual as per his/her personal karma.

If particular personal Karma belonging to an individual is not the truth, then the whole concept of Personal Spiritual Practices and personal deeds would make no sense for each individual.


Lord Krishna says - Not to be concerned about the fruits of your duties. Just do your duties sincerely without any personal expectations out of it. Taking this into account, can the truth be that, a right, sincere, uncorrupted and duty bound person would have to bear the wrong doings/sins of any other x, y, z? If that is the case, then that would contradict the whole concepts of Spirituality.

 

[C RAVI]

I agree with Mr. Sangom's idea.
If you believe that soul is same as Brahman, you should not be able to taint it.
Gita chapter 13
yatha sarva-gatam saukshmyad
akasam nopalipyate
sarvatravasthito dehe
tathatma nopalipyate

The i-ness is an envelope on the soul and is different than the soul. I-ness is the ignorance or maya.

Shri Parasad,

When a person dies, Soul is said to be out from the physical body. And when the Soul is out from the physical body it only means the "I ness" of the person is out of his/her body and the person is Dead. But the Soul/I ness, remains intact with its accumulated learning and gets into rebirth as per the Karma accumulated.

Soul and "I ness" is the same. It gets enveloped with Maya only due it's reappearance in this physical world of Maya.

Soul/I-ness is found to be tainted due to its presence in this physical world of Maya. Otherwise its not. Its pure and absolute. Only the physical body it bears is impure and is Maya.

Soul is same as Brahman BUT loses its perfection outwardly while indulged in this physical world of Maya. Soul/I-con bears the brunt of Maya, attempts to find its truth and yearns to get rid of Maya that is causing the Karma Load, having been revolved/revolving around "I ness".

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renukaji,

When even a personality like Lord Krishna stops short of saying anything about how the Law of Karma operates and just says "mā phaleṣu kadāca na", I do not think we should venture into further details of the Law of Karma.

Dear sir,

I agree with you. I just put that link so that we can be aware that is a Collective Karma and this will only reinforce the fact that one has to be "well behaved" not only for one's self but also for the Loka and the Samastha.

Just like antibiotic course which is not completed by the patient won't help cure the patient and will in turn make the pathological bacteria turn resistant to the antibiotic and when resistant bacteria is coughed out and some one else is infected the antibiotic won't work for that individual who is newly infected.

So one wrong deed of a person can have a Local Effect(Individual Karma) and a Universal Effect(Collective Karma).

That's why ancients have stressed 'Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu".

Creation is supposed to be one extended family..Vasudaiva Kutambakam.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

In that case how will the mahāvākyas like Tat tvam asi, Prajnānam brahma, etc., be explained? Kindly explain. Also, why then does the I-con does not remember its past identities?

Dear Shri Sangom,

Tat tvam Asi meaning :brahman without maya is identical with atman without its avidya itself shows that there is an individual soul which is afflicted with ignorance. Only when the avidya caused by maya is removed, the atman becomes brahman.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Tat tvam Asi meaning :brahman without maya is identical with atman without its avidya itself shows that there is an individual soul which is afflicted with ignorance. Only when the avidya caused by maya is removed, the atman becomes brahman.

Dear Sravna,

We are talking about the core here.

The Atma is the core of our body and the Atma is ever pure and unsullied.

There is not a time ever where the Atma is afflicted with ignorance.

Avidya are just coverings..like a cover of a balloon which will burst and the air inside the balloon was all the while the same as the air outside.

If Atma is afflicted with Ignorance then the Mahavakyas would have no meaning at all.

Tat Tvam Asi cleary means Thou Art That...It did not indicate anywhere the absence of Avidya cos when were are talking about the Atma there is no Avidya contaminating it.

Tat Tvam Asi is just direct to the point... otherwise it would have been "Avidya Naasti Atah Tat Tvam Asi"(meaning Avidya is Absent therefore Thou Art That) which is not the case isn't it?

Avadhuta Geeta from Ramakrishna Ashram gives really good explanation about the Nature of Atma.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

OK, I was wrong in the use of the term "afflicted" in connection with atman. Call it as avidya or coverings. Atman with avidya is the jivatma, right? The moment the jivatma realizes that the real self is atman which is brahman, it is self-realized.

In a new birth, the atma enters or you can say, animates a new body. But the body or coverings that is chosen has a reference to a previous jivatma or an individual soul and so in reality that jivatma is said to continue its journey towards moksha.

So we have the necessary clarification that what we call as the individual soul is the jivatma which accumulates experiences over a number of births, erases the good and the bad karma and attains self realization finally.

 

[renuka]

Atman with avidya is the jivatma, right?

Dear Sravna,

The embodied Atma a.k.a Trapped Atma is known as Jivaatma/Self .

The Atma is ever pure but it is "trapped by coverings/avidya etc.

Ok lets take childbirth as an example:

A fetus is in the uterus and is trapped by the layers of the uterus.
A fetus breaks free from the uterus when its born.

So Avidya/coverings can be like the uterus and the Atma breaks free is released from it when Moksha is attained.

 

[ozone]

Dear Renuka,

The moment the jivatma realizes that the real self is atman which is brahman, it is self-realized.

I think, the moment a jiva has completed its life, the jivatma merges with brahman.

In a new birth, the atma enters or you can say, animates a new body. But the body or coverings that is chosen has a reference to a previous jivatma or an individual soul and so in reality that jivatma is said to continue its journey towards moksha.

Are there specific entities called jivatma outside a living entity? I do not think so. Atma enters a new body when that creation happens and being trapped manifests itself as jivatma.

So we have the necessary clarification that what we call as the individual soul is the jivatma which accumulates experiences over a number of births, erases the good and the bad karma and attains self realization finally.

I am not sure I understand or agree with this. The karmic residue gives rise to births and experiences (pleasure and sufferings) and at each birth, Atma provides the jivatma experience. The absence of karma results in no further need for birth and hence self realisation.

 

[sravna]

Are there specific entities called jivatma outside a living entity? I do not think so. Atma enters a new body when that creation happens and being trapped manifests itself as jivatma.

The atma along with the trappings is the jivatma and indeed there is nothing outside the living entity called as jivatma. The important point is that, atma which manifests in a new body represents the continuation of that which manifested in the previous body but now acquires the new body according to the accumulated karma. So a jivatma has a lineage and doesn't come and go in isolation.

I am not sure I understand or agree with this. The karmic residue gives rise to births and experiences (pleasure and sufferings) and at each birth, Atma provides the jivatma experience. The absence of karma results in no further need for birth and hence self realisation.[/QUOTE]

Absence of karma of what?

 

[guruvayurappan]

In the climax scene of WALL E the A.I would take over and we know the consequences.
Hope such things will happen ONLY in Science fiction and not in real life! :scared:

Wall-E - YouTube

dear V R !!
sorry .i could not view wall -E-in you tube since it is not diplayed in india.
but your line such things will happaen only in science and not in real life is 100 %true. after all all machine obey /works according to designer thoughts/vision.
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

post 5 #
dear sir !
it is like saying எய்தவன் இருக்க அம்பை நோவது ஏன் ? அவன் கையில் நாம் எல்லோரும் பொம்மைகள் .எல்லாம் அவன் செயல்
will we be spared from punishment by saying these things ?
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

welcome dear sangom sir !
very pleased read your post after a long interval .take care of your health &be posting your valuable thoughts
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

this thread is becoming more interesting with posts of s/s sravan ,sangom ,mrs.renuka,Tbs sri ravi. and sarang .thanks to all of them
guruvayurappan

 

[guruvayurappan]

the dicussions make me to think of newton laws
energy can neither be created or destroyed (atma )
it assume one form or another with action of other things (KARMA )
it will continue in its state of inertia until otherwise disturbed by external force(our deeds will be in correct path if guided by proper guru/teachings) .(sorry i am not well versed /read in rig veda,gadoupanishath or geetha etc.)
guruvayurappan

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

The problem of samasara is with Buddhi and not with " I-con " . The smallness with which we are accustomed to think is the root problem. I'm small, I'm limited with body, i'm not anywhere out of my body, I'm limited by skill set, I'm limitied by intellect, I'm only this much .. so and so .. this alpa buddhi is the root cause of bondage.

Ahamkara in this sense (Thinking "I" as alpa (smallness) ) only have to be given up. PURE "I-CON" is SOUL , ATMA , POORNA....

I-CON should not be mistaken to Ahamkara.

Pure " I-CON" is without any attribute.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

In this sentence " I'm so and so " the "I-con " is atma and "so and so" is Maya.

"So and So" is maya coz there is no inherency to the "so and so " it appears only.

Buddhist and Jains couldn't grasp the pure "I-CON" so after a detailed analysis they ended up with ANATMA vada (SOULLESS) theory.