The Sin of being born a Son in Hindu society

[sankara_sharmah]

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Indian society especially Hindu society places a lot of emphasis on Sons. You are supposed to end up in a special Naraka called Puth if you do not have a Son. In fact the sasthras are almost obsessive about Sons.

The Sons inherit the wealth of the father. That is about the only advantage they have. Indian society also neglects the girls to the extent of committing female infanticide.

The Sons alone have the responsibility of supporting the parents.

In the modern era there have been campaigns to improve the lot of the girls. They have been given equal rights in property. A lot has been done. But much more remains to be done to make the position of the Girls equal to that of boys.

We are fighting to get the daughters their rights. But what about responsibilities. Responsibility goes side by side with rights. But no one talks about that.

Of course this is true of the Indian society in general. Every one has rights. But no one has responsibilities.

Daughters have got the property rights. But the responsibility of supporting the parents still remains only with sons. We have enacted a law by which parents can sue the sons for maintenance. But why did we omit the daughters?

During the entire life of a Boy, he is told about his duty towards his parents. About how he should earn money and support his parents. When a boy questions the unfairness of his being singled out and his sister getting away free, he is told "She will go away to another house"

The vast majority of Indians do not have property to give their sons. But the sons inherit responsibility irrespective of whether he inherits property or not. Our sasthras keep on harping about the responsibility of the Son toward his parents.

Is it fair? It is NOT. Why we DO NOT at least now tell our daughters that they are equally responsible. We are unhappy when our son does not provide for us to the extent we like. But we are very happy if the daughter gives a small gift.

When we were growing up, we the sons were expected to get a good education and a good job. For that we had to leave our village , go to strange and not so hospitable places, eat strange food and generally suffer. Our sisters were not expected to do any of this.

Once when we were waiting for a job interview one of my friend said "I wish I was born a Girl. I would have got married by now and would be reading "femina" in comfort." He was right.

None of the Girls who grew up with me had to undertake the hardships that I have undergone. They had a comfortable life.

Society that is You and me have to change. Treat your Son and daughter equally. Not only in rights but also responsibilities.

Another point which I would like to make is please remember

"Fixed deposits/Investments Do not Love You."

Many of us treat our sons like fixed deposits. An Investment which is expected to yield a return in old age. We are unhappy when the return is not upto our expectations. Many parents talk about the sacrifices they have made for their children. Yes. It is a fact that they have made considerable sacrifices.

But it is your Duty. You have done the Duty according to your own judgement of what your duty toward your son is. Your son has a Duty towards you. He will do it according to his own judgment. Not yours.

He will make sacrifices for his children following your footsteps.

 

[P.J.]

shankara_Sharmah Sir

Even the South Indian Tamil Brahimn Seemandha Mandiram prays for male son only.[FONT=&quot]Ladies are asked to sing: "Be a mother of heroic sons" thus creating a heroic atmosphere. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]At the close of the ceremony she touches a male calf, symbolizing a son.At the time of pregnancy this is performed for the health and wealth of to born Baby and also for normal delivery.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]SEEMANTHAM [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

This is performed during the period between the fifth and the eighth months[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of pregnancy. The specific materials used during this Samskara, that are for the lady only, are, the quill of a porcupine, an ear of ripe paddy and some Udumbara leaves. The deity invoked is Rika, the presiding deity of the full-moon. Their implications are: that the pregnancy should be fruitful; the child should be endowed with sharp and penetrating intellect (like the sharp quill of the porcupine). The child should be beautiful like the full-moon.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] The gist of the Mantra is: "I beseech the goddess Raka. May she make this ceremony blameless. May my son be endowed with sharp intellect."Music, especially on the veena, is indicated to be played on this occasion. This increases the mothers suckling power besides conferring other psychological benefits. Ladies are asked to sing: "Be a mother of heroic sons" thus creating a heroic atmosphere. The mother fasts and keeps silent after the ceremony till night time when the stars become visible. At the close of the ceremony she touches a male calf, symbolizing a son.At the time of pregnancy this is performed for the health and wealth of to born Baby and also for normal delivery.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
Family Aacharya (Sastrigal or Vadyar or Pandit) online any time with you

 

[prasad1]

Sin is a strong word, that is associated with Guilt.
If you have problem with a position, may or may not be approved by your family of society, you will be subject to guilt. Religion is general thrives on heaping guilt.

I agree that we must treat our children equally. To an extent the Indian constitution tried to rectify this injustice towards women (thankfully).

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Sin is a strong word, that is associated with Guilt.
If you have problem with a position, may or may not be approved by your family of society, you will be subject to guilt. Religion is general thrives on heaping guilt.

I agree that we must treat our children equally. To an extent the Indian constitution tried to rectify this injustice towards women (thankfully).

May be I should have worded it as "The heavy Price of being born a Son in Hindu society"

What about the Injustice towards Men? Do we pay the penalty because of the Sin of being born a Hindu male? Is it fair? Is it Equality? Is it Justice?

 

[Brahmanyan]

May be I should have worded it as "The heavy Price of being born a Son in Hindu society"

What about the Injustice towards Men? Do we pay the penalty because of the Sin of being born a Hindu male? Is it fair? Is it Equality? Is it Justice?

Dear Sri Sharmah,

I respect your views, but I felt it is a privilege for me as the first son to take care my parents and the family. Daughters also take care of the family to which they enter after their marriage.
Equality is a state of mind, an imagination. No one is equal in creation. Each has got his/her place in the hierarchy.

(Please be honest and tell me is it not the fact that the wife in the house wields more power than the husband in most our houses.!!)

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Dear Sri Sharmah,

I respect your views, but I felt it is a privilege for me as the first son to take care my parents and the family. Daughters also take care of the family to which they enter after their marriage.
Equality is a state of mind, an imagination. Nothing is equal in creation. Each has got its place in the hierarchy of responsibility.
(Please be honest and tell me is it not the fact that the wife in the house wields more power than the husband in most our houses.!!)

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

I have seen that the pressure to perform is more on the Boys than Girls. The expectation of the the parents is also higher. This does create psychological problems. On the other hand the girls also feel neglected.

This should change. The younger generation whose are yet to be married or those whose children are still very young, should come out of this mind set and treat both the Son and the daughter equally.

The old saying is

ஆசைக்கொரு பெண்

ஆஸ்திக்கொரு பிள்ளை

We have given ஆஸ்தி to the பெண்

Let us give ஆசை to the பிள்ளை also.

I do agree that we are all humans and not computers. We can never ensure absolute equality. But atleast we should aim for it.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sri Sharmah,

I respect your views, but I felt it is a privilege for me as the first son to take care my parents and the family. Daughters also take care of the family to which they enter after their marriage.
Equality is a state of mind, an imagination. No one is equal in creation. Each has got his/her place in the hierarchy.

(Please be honest and tell me is it not the fact that the wife in the house wields more power than the husband in most our houses.!!)

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Absolutely true, Shri Brahmanyan,


The problem arises only when the daughters are concerned only about getting their share from parents and not about giving anything in return.


To be frank, I have come across many families where the males have discussed with me on this issue. They say, the girls of their home wants all the liberty in their parents home, wants all equal share in everything BUT when the situation demands something in return from them to support, they turn their face saying, they are struggling for their own family and that's the reason they are claiming their share from their parents and taking help from their brothers too otherwise of which they won't bother to ask/claim anything from any one.

The irony is even if their husbands (as SIL/BIL) are ready to shoulder during the most needed situation, the girls are not happy about it and feels that their husbands are being used as "Ilichcha Vaayans"

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I know a particular case in which just after marriage the son asked his father whether he could money every month to him. He had never done so in the past. The father also never wanted him to. Then the new daughter in law came out with the real reason. She has been sending money to her parents before marriage. She wanted to continue that. And she thought in all fairness the son also should send money to his parents. The father still said NO.

This only shows the change in the attitude of the girls. The girl's parents are well off. She said she is sending the money as pocket money for the mother. She tried her level best to convince her mother in law to accept the monthly remittance.

The change is coming.

 

[kunjuppu]

sankara,

if it were to me, i would further qualify it, to 'eldest son' in the family. today, from a legal viewpoint, afaik, it is a 'no win' situation.

true enough, by the hindu act of sep 2004, the daughters SHOULD inherit equal portions of the parents' property. ie they have no right to disown the daughters, even if they write a will, even if she marries out of caste/religion, changes her religion (only point here is that if she pre deceases her children, the children may not claim anything).

so, today's son(s) are at the mercy of their sisters, if they wish to inherit more than an equal share. in these days of inflated property values in madras, i dont know, if any of us, have stepped through the impact of a son inheriting a house. it is normally worth in the neighbourhood of a few crores or more. the daughter's seedhanam at the most comes to a few lakhs. this is the arguement that was put forth in 'neeya naana' show a few week's ago. the daughters in the show, justified their claim, that a few lakhs given long ago, does not equal to the crores inherited by their brother(s).

Hindu Daughters' rights sep 2004

the legal stuff

it means, parents cannot simply 'will' away those children whom they dont like, and give all the loot to their favoured children

in my own street where i grew up in mandaveli, atleast 3 families, have the daughters, through court order, occupying a portion of the parental household, amidst enmity and anger. this is the new world.

personally, i think, it is best if parents live with their daughters. dil cannot never be a daughter. a wife rules the household, and she can make life difficult for the in laws. but never will she do it for her parents. the mother daughter bond is the strongest bond among two humans. i think,it is only a feeling of what the community thinks, that forces parents to spend time with their son.

the oldest, in the olden days, received benefits, including an informal primogeniture system, where the entire property or household or a major portion went to the one who lit the fire. not any more. today also, there are many families with only girls, who in turn inherit everything, and along with it, comes the clout of ensuring that their parents too are well taken care of.

no matter what, it is a very personal thing, with each family. hopefully sanity prevails, and each one does, so that the overall care of 4 old people are taken care. i used to think, that if there are 3 children, the old people should spend 4 months a year with each. but then, does this not mean, shunting them around, because the children feel this is a chore, and everyone is just divvying up the unpleasant experience?

no easy answers. no pat answers, if one spends time thinking through. best is to be gone before we lose our independence - financial , health and otherwise. God willing.

thank you.

 

[sangom]

This has reference to the OP and post # 7 by Shri C. Ravi. It looks to me as if Sankara_Sharmah and others of his generation/age are an "in-between" stage; while their generation had to fulfill their obligations towards their parents, they as parents are facing a situation in which their children have gone on to the changed, modern generation. So, like a 'maddaLam', these people have received knocks or "koTTu" from both sides. This is the true situation though the OP seems to put the blame squarely on the expectations from a son in Hindu society.

I am not familiar with the nuances within the many communities within Hinduism. My knowledge being mostly about Tabras, I will say that as long as the parents were responsible as parents, there should be no grouse on the part of the son/s to discharge their responsibilities towards their parents, sisters, etc. But I have seen a good number of Tabras who merrily produced children and left them to fend for themselves but as soon as a son struggled and succeeded a job, the parents immediately woke up and started giving advice, instructions and even ultimatums to the earning son that now he is responsible for re-establishing the family's name and fame which existed a few generations ago when some great grandfather was a very rich and influential person in the community. Any mild suggestions even from the son as to what they (the parents) themselves did to reestablish the family renown, used to be met with lot of melodrama and weeping by the mother, etc., so at last, the said son just vanished one fine morning and nothing more was heard of him. The other brothers (sons) defeated their father in irresponsible lives and the family simply went wayward. I think the responsible sons should be bold enough to openly question and disown the irresponsible parents.

Incidentally, among women also there is an identical "in-between" generation, I believe; a generation which was exploited, in accordance with time-honoured customs and practices, by their mother-in-laws (?) and are currently being 'disciplined' by their daughter-in-laws in tune with today's practices But these MILs dare not even speak ill of their DILs for fear of law, arrest and possible divorce for their sons!

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

it is high time, mil learn to love their dil, even better than their own daughter. the enlightened mil like my wife, already does that. and the rewards are multifold - you have a son, who in fact is 'jealous' of how close the mil/dil have become.

it is all within the mind. and attitude.

unfortunately, we have inherited a nasty attitude passsed down by the generations - the ill treated dil, once her turn comes, instead of learning from her own lessons, takes upon as a right to inflict pain on HER dil. happened in my own family, without fail.

the first one to break it was my mom. who never interfered in our lives. and my sis' to such an extent, my bil loved to have mom live with them. but not his own parents, who interfered in every aspect of the household, as a 'right'.

overall, i think, the social development is one for the better. and inevitable, with the increased empowerment of our girls, through education and earning power. one cannot have a dichotomy of medieval slavery at home, and enlightenment outside of home. eh!

 

[Acharya]

Indian society especially Hindu society places a lot of emphasis on Sons.

The Hindu Sons are the luckiest.

You are supposed to end up in a special Naraka called Puth if you do not have a Son.

Superstition.

In fact the sasthras are almost obsessive about Sons.

The Sons inherit the wealth of the father.

What a great honor and privelige!!!

Every one has rights. But no one has responsibilities.

Would you please join with me to make a beginning? Let us assume responsibilities. I will help you. You may take all the credits, awards and rewards. I want nothing in return.

During the entire life of a Boy, he is told about his duty towards his parents. About how he should earn money and support his parents.

The greatest joy in life.

Once when we were waiting for a job interview one of my friend said "I wish I was born a Girl. I would have got married by now and would be reading "femina" in comfort."

Your friend is a coward. He is lazy, lethargic.

Mr Sharma, Please change your attitude.

With Love,
Acharya

 

[sangom]

sangom,

it is high time, mil learn to love their dil, even better than their own daughter. the enlightened mil like my wife, already does that. and the rewards are multifold - you have a son, who in fact is 'jealous' of how close the mil/dil have become.

it is all within the mind. and attitude.

unfortunately, we have inherited a nasty attitude passsed down by the generations - the ill treated dil, once her turn comes, instead of learning from her own lessons, takes upon as a right to inflict pain on HER dil. happened in my own family, without fail.

the first one to break it was my mom. who never interfered in our lives. and my sis' to such an extent, my bil loved to have mom live with them. but not his own parents, who interfered in every aspect of the household, as a 'right'.

overall, i think, the social development is one for the better. and inevitable, with the increased empowerment of our girls, through education and earning power. one cannot have a dichotomy of medieval slavery at home, and enlightenment outside of home. eh!

Dear K,

Glad to know that you now have a DIL whom Mrs. K loves like her own girl/daughter. But I don't find this in most of the tabra households here. The present situation is that many elderly women, say, of my generation are in the "maddaLam" group as described in my previous post. A dil is seen as an outsider, essentially and this increases in the case of ICM/IRM because even the small number of common binding factors like way of living, food habits, language (some cases) etc., are missing in such ICM/IRM. On the other hand a dil today at least among tabras I know is a source of awe and respect; caused by the enormous power the dil can wield over her in-laws and the husband's life, thanks to the empowerment laws in force now in India. Thus the situation seems to have really worsened although on the surface you will find any average tabra mil painstakingly inventing eulogies on her dil, like "கேட்டேளா, எங்காத்து நாட்டுப்பொண் வலது கையாலெ தான் சாப்பிடுவா. பாத்ரூமிலெ தான் குளிப்பள் and such like!" Hence my assessment is that empowerment has only worsened the mil-dil relationship into something like the cold-war stage.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

i think much of this relationship is within mil's control, atleast initially.

it would do good, to start off with sincerety. and keep the end goal in mind ie win the confidence and respect and (love) of the dil. keeping the interest of the son in mind.

to this extent, if the mil treats the dil, and showers love. without expecting anything in return, for it could so happen (as it happened to me 30+ years ago) the dil's mind could be poisoned and prejudiced by her family and family politics, of which the son would have no clue. there are always hidden agendas, wrapped with nice words, but hiding ill will and jealousy.

it would take a while for the dil's to wean herself away from 22+ years of maternal paternal sibling cousin uncle aunty friend influence, and take a look at the new family with clear and fair eyes. so the mil has to give the dil time, and wait for feedback from the son. you can be rest assured the feedback will be soon coming - good or bad.

if it is bad, the last thing you want is to be that son in the middle. i still remember my own experience, and the unsavoury attacks on me and my family from the newly related. indignation and anger was my response, and some of those, even after 30+ years still raw enough to feel.

sometimes it is immaturity. just because people are old, does not mean they are mature. families too intent on material uplifting often forget their obligations and values, especially in relations to in laws, whom they view as competition, or a source of money or jobs or influence.

on the whole, if you have only witnessed poor experiences from modern day tambram dils, it might do good, to hear the other side of the story. i have a fair number of neices, married in the past few years. i should say none of them have any overt love for their in laws, but they do follow the decorum, and behave well in company.

on the whole, the initial relationship, is like walking on eggshells. what is more important, is for the person, who has most to lose, is to work hard towards winning the respect, love and above all the confidence of the other party. nowadays, i understand, it is mil who is the underdog. it would be good, if she realizes this at onset and once she knows her position, can work towards betterment. in this effort, she is best working alone, without any advice or 'help' from her own near and dear, including her own daughter(s).

that is my take, on the oil/water relationship of a mil/dil today, as i understand its consequences to the tambram community. it is important to keep the son in mind, and help him avoid conflicts. if he had to chose, 99% it would be the wife and not the mother.

 

[Raji Ram]

Now-a-days NO mil dares confrontations with the dil. Actually, they are a sort of scared! If they advise their dil on anything,

the next moment the son will appear to support his wife. That is the case in many families I know. Our close friend's mother is

very orthodox; He and his wife are T V personalities. When their d i l appeared with tight modern dress, I thought, 'How come this

girl dresses up like this?'. But both her mil and mil's mil sent her off to college (she works as a lecturer!) with a ...

P.S: Many mils roam around the house even in the day time with a 'nighty', in Sing. Chennai! New style??? :dizzy:

 

[sravna]

In my view the strains that develop in relationships has to do with the inherent nature of humans of attaching undue bias towards one own self and hence being prejudiced towards others. But today the reason the relationship problem has taken mammoth proportions is due to the encouragement and free licence to nurturing the notion of self. Thus we are stoking something vigorously which in fact we need to curb. The marital relationships are the worst hit because of the additional empowerment given by laws to the women. The check by the society needs to be there to not let itself be unduly affected by individual inadequacies. But the trick is to strike a fine balance. We need to take up that challenge imo for our own good.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

sankara,

if it were to me, i would further qualify it, to 'eldest son' in the family. today, from a legal viewpoint, afaik, it is a 'no win' situation.

true enough, by the hindu act of sep 2004, the daughters SHOULD inherit equal portions of the parents' property. ie they have no right to disown the daughters, even if they write a will, even if she marries out of caste/religion, changes her religion (only point here is that if she pre deceases her children, the children may not claim anything).

so, today's son(s) are at the mercy of their sisters, if they wish to inherit more than an equal share. in these days of inflated property values in madras, i dont know, if any of us, have stepped through the impact of a son inheriting a house. it is normally worth in the neighbourhood of a few crores or more. the daughter's seedhanam at the most comes to a few lakhs. this is the arguement that was put forth in 'neeya naana' show a few week's ago. the daughters in the show, justified their claim, that a few lakhs given long ago, does not equal to the crores inherited by their brother(s).

Hindu Daughters' rights sep 2004

the legal stuff

it means, parents cannot simply 'will' away those children whom they dont like, and give all the loot to their favoured children

in my own street where i grew up in mandaveli, atleast 3 families, have the daughters, through court order, occupying a portion of the parental household, amidst enmity and anger. this is the new world.

personally, i think, it is best if parents live with their daughters. dil cannot never be a daughter. a wife rules the household, and she can make life difficult for the in laws. but never will she do it for her parents. the mother daughter bond is the strongest bond among two humans. i think,it is only a feeling of what the community thinks, that forces parents to spend time with their son.

the oldest, in the olden days, received benefits, including an informal primogeniture system, where the entire property or household or a major portion went to the one who lit the fire. not any more. today also, there are many families with only girls, who in turn inherit everything, and along with it, comes the clout of ensuring that their parents too are well taken care of.

no matter what, it is a very personal thing, with each family. hopefully sanity prevails, and each one does, so that the overall care of 4 old people are taken care. i used to think, that if there are 3 children, the old people should spend 4 months a year with each. but then, does this not mean, shunting them around, because the children feel this is a chore, and everyone is just divvying up the unpleasant experience?

no easy answers. no pat answers, if one spends time thinking through. best is to be gone before we lose our independence - financial , health and otherwise. God willing.

thank you.

Kunjuppu,

The laws you have quoted apply only to Ancestral property and not Self-earned property. Self-earned property can be willed away. The problem with many people is either they mix up Ancestral property with self-earned property or do not leave a will. Mixing up of properties could lead to litigation later and you have to prove that it is self-earned property. Then many people die intestate.

If we take proper precautions such happenings can be avoided. One is to clearly demarcate the ancestral property from self-earned property. And then leave a will.

I can speak from personal experience as our family had its own share of partition suits.

If you have enough and more of self-earned property it is better to distribute the ancestral property when one is alive. My father did it. I have done so.

I believe that if you have enough wealth it is better to give a share to the sons/daughters when they need it. There is no point in inheriting crores of rupees when you are 60+ years old. With people living long that is what is going to happen. The children should be given money when they are in the 30s when they need the money like when they buy a house/flat.

In my family the மஞ்சக் காணி property and the jewels of the mother goes to the daughters. I do not know whether it is region specific.

In my family we got a Gift Deed executed by the daughters at the time of marriage Gifting their share of the ancestral property to the father. My sisters did it.

About staying with children, you know that I do not believe in it. More about that later.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

This has reference to the OP and post # 7 by Shri C. Ravi. It looks to me as if Sankara_Sharmah and others of his generation/age are an "in-between" stage; while their generation had to fulfill their obligations towards their parents, they as parents are facing a situation in which their children have gone on to the changed, modern generation. So, like a 'maddaLam', these people have received knocks or "koTTu" from both sides. This is the true situation though the OP seems to put the blame squarely on the expectations from a son in Hindu society.

I am not familiar with the nuances within the many communities within Hinduism. My knowledge being mostly about Tabras, I will say that as long as the parents were responsible as parents, there should be no grouse on the part of the son/s to discharge their responsibilities towards their parents, sisters, etc. But I have seen a good number of Tabras who merrily produced children and left them to fend for themselves but as soon as a son struggled and succeeded a job, the parents immediately woke up and started giving advice, instructions and even ultimatums to the earning son that now he is responsible for re-establishing the family's name and fame which existed a few generations ago when some great grandfather was a very rich and influential person in the community. Any mild suggestions even from the son as to what they (the parents) themselves did to reestablish the family renown, used to be met with lot of melodrama and weeping by the mother, etc., so at last, the said son just vanished one fine morning and nothing more was heard of him. The other brothers (sons) defeated their father in irresponsible lives and the family simply went wayward. I think the responsible sons should be bold enough to openly question and disown the irresponsible parents.

Incidentally, among women also there is an identical "in-between" generation, I believe; a generation which was exploited, in accordance with time-honoured customs and practices, by their mother-in-laws (?) and are currently being 'disciplined' by their daughter-in-laws in tune with today's practices But these MILs dare not even speak ill of their DILs for fear of law, arrest and possible divorce for their sons!

Sangam,

It is not necessary for one to have faced a problem to discuss about it. My mother sort of forced me to study Engineering. That is about the only decision my parents made on my behalf.

I do not have the experience of Parents staying with me. My parents stayed in the village till the sathabishekam of my father. Then my brothers forced them to shift with a son. Though the reason attributed was lack of Medical facilities in the village, the real reason was peer group pressure. Though my parents were staying in the village on their own choice, my brothers were facing criticism for neglecting our parents. My parents shifted to my brother's house since he was in Madras.

I was opposed to my parents shifting because it meant I had no Home. My brother's house could never become my home though my other siblings later considered it to be home. But since I was farthest from home and my parents were never comfortable with me, I had no voice.

My parents were not comfortable in my house because my children were not there. They were in residential school. Then they never approved my smoking, drinking, partying life. They were not comfortable with my wife's social activities and TV serial acting (only for a short time).

I stay alone with my wife by choice. My children also face criticism because we live alone. But there is nothing I can do about it. I can write reams about the joy of staying independently. I have also done so. But I realize that most of the members do not approve of it.

My O.P is a cry for fairness. For equality. It is a concept/idea about which the younger generation should think and act. We should shed the shackles of the past and break free.

 

[suraju06]

Hi friends,

The conversation is interesting. Though it started with the plight of sons, it has meandered through MIL-DIL relations and has ended up in legal aspects of self-earned property Vs. ancestral property. My views are:

1. Self earned property is the only property to which one can have unfettered claim and right. All ancestral properties are subject to equal rights of other legal heirs. So why lament about daughters claiming their share? If some daughters do not claim it and leave it to the sons it is out of their largeheartedness. The sons should be thankful to them for that.

2. A couple produces a son to fulfill his responsibilities in the society. He gets married and along with his wife he discharges his duties. Here the DIL, the girl, comes from another family. Similarly they produce a daughter to go to another family and do her duties. She joins her husband and performs her duties. Where is the question of girls not sharing the family burden in this? If not the burdens in the family in which she was born she shares the burden in another family along with her husband.

3. As for the parents who just produced children without bothering to provide them with the wherewithal to lead a successful and prosperous life in the world, we must understand that they belonged to an age when they did not have knowledge of birth control methods. TBs as a community were going through several upheavals in the near past. They were thrown into fast changing urban milieu in which they were chickens let out in the forest. Did not know which way to run to for cover. Earlier the life was at a leisurely pace with lands yielding their grains with unfailing regularity, with enough time to spend on philosophical inquiries and to explore and push frontiers of intellect or just with adequate time to spend in long winding conversations about every sa and ri of the music with mouthfull of fragrant pan. So it was the failure of a pathetic lot. They could not do anything for their children when they were dispossessed of their lands and ended in a rat-hole in a town or a city commuting every day to an office to earn just adequate money to keep the body and soul together for a large family. So I have sympathy for them. It is not their mistake. It is the ruthless devastation caused by changing times. I ask just one question to these sons who have complaints about their parents. What if your son tomorrow after growing up asks you why you could not become an Ambani or a Premji so that he could have been the son of a super rich man? You will have only one answer that you did not get the opportunity. Or would you be still be harping on your father's/mother's failure? You know you cannot do that because you know Dhirubhai's father was just a primary school teacher in a decrepit seaside village called Chorwad in Gujarat.

4. So Gentlemen, let us stop complaining and start acting like true men /sons. Take responsibilities (uneasy lies the head that wears the crown-but that uneasiness is what makes you a man) , live up to the expectation of a score of relatives, go to our wars everyday, win a few and lose a few but get home to be nursed by our womenfolk who are walking Gods on earth.

Cheers.

 

[tbs]

Sangam,

It is not necessary for one to have faced a problem to discuss about it. My mother sort of forced me to study Engineering. That is about the only decision my parents made on my behalf.

I do not have the experience of Parents staying with me. My parents stayed in the village till the sathabishekam of my father. Then my brothers forced them to shift with a son. Though the reason attributed was lack of Medical facilities in the village, the real reason was peer group pressure. Though my parents were staying in the village on their own choice, my brothers were facing criticism for neglecting our parents. My parents shifted to my brother's house since he was in Madras.

I was opposed to my parents shifting because it meant I had no Home. My brother's house could never become my home though my other siblings later considered it to be home. But since I was farthest from home and my parents were never comfortable with me, I had no voice.

My parents were not comfortable in my house because my children were not there. They were in residential school. Then they never approved my smoking, drinking, partying life. They were not comfortable with my wife's social activities and TV serial acting (only for a short time).

I stay alone with my wife by choice. My children also face criticism because we live alone. But there is nothing I can do about it. I can write reams about the joy of staying independently. I have also done so. But I realize that most of the members do not approve of it.

My O.P is a cry for fairness. For equality. It is a concept/idea about which the younger generation should think and act. We should shed the shackles of the past and break free.

hi sir,
i stayed all alone kind of young age from 8 yrs in veda patasaala life...some times vacations in grand parents home....

then hostel life in college....military life in barracks.......now transatlantic life....miles away from my mom....away from my own

country.....sometimes i wonder.. IS LIFE IS CHOICE?,...OR ....IS LIFE IS CHANCE?....OR ...JUST FATE?.....just feeling more

independent now.....sometimes joy of staying independently....

 

[sravna]

I think we are not being fair in our judgement when we say that the girls do not show their responsibility. The question is what is is that you consider as responsibility? Is it one imposed by the legal system or one that is spontaneously displayed? The more you are resorting to something external or forceful to get what you want the less is the satisfaction that you derive from it. In my experience the girls seem to be more attached to their parents nowadays than the boys. The irony though is that the boy is bound by his wife.

Personally I feel we should not ask and get things that are supposed to come naturally and this in fact takes away the meaning of responsibility. But what I think needs to be done is that the boys become a little more assertive than they are now at least with respect to being good to their parents. I think it is more the parents who are abandoned by their sons than the sons being burdened with responsibility.

I think a man who mediates well between his wife and his mother would be greatly helping in maintaining peace in the family. If not under the spell of wife and is really conscientious he will support his parents spontaneously than considering it as a burden to be carried out. That is what the real solution is imo.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

hi sir,i stayed all alone kind of young age from 8 yrs in veda patasaala life...some times vacations in grand parents home....then hostel life in college....military life in barracks.......now transatlantic life....miles away from my mom....away from my owncountry.....sometimes i wonder.. IS LIFE IS CHOICE?,...OR ....IS LIFE IS CHANCE?....OR ...JUST FATE?.....just feeling moreindependent now.....sometimes joy of staying independently....

Sometimes i wonder.. IS LIFE IS CHOICE?,...OR ....IS LIFE IS CHANCE?....OR ...JUST FATE?..Yes. Even I do.

 

[vgane]

I know a Tambrahm family where son studied in a top notch convent school but his sisters studied in ordinary schools...Boys were given preference in education by parents.This was the scene till the 70's.

Come the 80's with just 1 or 2 kids all are treated equally...No no one can say that on account of gender one is not getting the right education

Coming to responsibility, I feel that daughters especially the generation who are married & in their 20's & 30's have responsibility to their parents...

Rights & Responsibilities go together...Let us respect womanhood for their sacrifices...At the same time they should also shoulder their responsibilities as far as parents are concerned...

I know a Marathi Brahmin family of sons & daughters where one of sons (married with son & daughter) decided not to take his share of the parental property & instead gift it to his sister who was in dire need..

What we need is the willingness to take equal responsibilty for parents by both son & daughter
and where there is some genuine issue when someone is not able to perform his/her role talk it over

 

[Acharya]

sometimes i wonder.. Is life is choice?,...or ....is life is chance?....or ...just fate?..yes. Even i do.

life is the best and greatest gift given by god. It is a plan of god.

 

[sangom]

sankara,

if it were to me, i would further qualify it, to 'eldest son' in the family. today, from a legal viewpoint, afaik, it is a 'no win' situation.

true enough, by the hindu act of sep 2004, the daughters SHOULD inherit equal portions of the parents' property. ie they have no right to disown the daughters, even if they write a will, even if she marries out of caste/religion, changes her religion (only point here is that if she pre deceases her children, the children may not claim anything).

so, today's son(s) are at the mercy of their sisters, if they wish to inherit more than an equal share. in these days of inflated property values in madras, i dont know, if any of us, have stepped through the impact of a son inheriting a house. it is normally worth in the neighbourhood of a few crores or more. the daughter's seedhanam at the most comes to a few lakhs. this is the arguement that was put forth in 'neeya naana' show a few week's ago. the daughters in the show, justified their claim, that a few lakhs given long ago, does not equal to the crores inherited by their brother(s).

Hindu Daughters' rights sep 2004

the legal stuff

it means, parents cannot simply 'will' away those children whom they dont like, and give all the loot to their favoured children

Dear Kunjuppu,

Your argument will be applicable only in so far as ancestral property (i.e., property inherited by the parent himself/herself ?) is concerned. Self-acquired property can be lawfully willed to any Tom, Dick or Harry of the choice of the person who makes the will.