renuka
Well-known member
This is what I fail to understand..when per religion we are supposed to give up desires why do we preform acts that further bind the departed?
-
This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
-
Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
- Status
This is what I fail to understand..when per religion we are supposed to give up desires why do we preform acts that further bind the departed?
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
Renuka,
There are many questions which arise in our mind.
1. One is supposed to attain Sivaloka/ Vaikunda according to his /her Karmas. Does the act of not Having Antyesti done by a son override all your Karmas? This is basically nullifying the entire karma theory.
2. Can a person be denied Mukthi just because his son has not performed the funeral rites?
3. The theory of rebirth. Where does this fit in ?
4. How do we reconcile the theory of rebirth and shraddham.
Hinduism: The Problem of Suffering and Rebirth and the Law of Karma
The questions could go on.
A number of explanations are given. But they are more of சப்பைக் கட்டு than reasonable or acceptabe explanations.
As one of my professors put it "when Hinduism advanced to the concept of Brahman and higher things, our ancestors forgot to update the concepts about death ceremonies which remained in the primitive state."
There are many questions which arise in our mind.
1. One is supposed to attain Sivaloka/ Vaikunda according to his /her Karmas. Does the act of not Having Antyesti done by a son override all your Karmas? This is basically nullifying the entire karma theory.
2. Can a person be denied Mukthi just because his son has not performed the funeral rites?
3. The theory of rebirth. Where does this fit in ?
4. How do we reconcile the theory of rebirth and shraddham.
Hinduism: The Problem of Suffering and Rebirth and the Law of Karma
The questions could go on.
A number of explanations are given. But they are more of சப்பைக் கட்டு than reasonable or acceptabe explanations.
As one of my professors put it "when Hinduism advanced to the concept of Brahman and higher things, our ancestors forgot to update the concepts about death ceremonies which remained in the primitive state."
tbs
0
hi
i have a copy of this book with me now....i like it...its his ph.d thesis....i think so....
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
He is now Principal, College of Indology, Banares Hindu University.
Samskaras is a book which every Hindu should read and possess.
Samskaras is a book which every Hindu should read and possess.
Raji Ram
Active member
Dear Sir,
Is 'dont' is added by mistake?
Somehow, I never had a liking for nighties right from my young age. I prefer simple chudidhars as night dress.
I have invented a very simple cutting and can stitch one set in 40 minutes!
renuka
Well-known member
Dear Sir,
After some years of logical thinking..I have started to feel that many practices are uncalled for.
Ok lets take this example..see when an animal dies..no funeral rites are done in most cases.
Just disposed off some where or may be they land up as food on a table.
The animal technically has an Atma too..if an animal can progress to the next level and does not need his progeny to do any rites for him why can't we humans progress too without any aid?
Some might view my post as insulting since I am equating animals with humans but essentially there is no difference at the Atmic level as per Geeta.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]TEXT 18[/FONT]vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]TRANSLATIONThe humble sage, by virtue of true knowledge, sees with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste].[/FONT]
I am under the impression that many practices do not really match with the theory of Karma and also with Advaitic view.
In fact one priest recently told my relative that his deceased dad is suffering in hell and a homa needs to be done costing RM 4000 to help bail his dad out of hell.
I had no idea how that priest knows who is where and he feels RM 4000 can bail out a person from hell.
To me I feel this totally goes againsts the Karma theory and worse still corruption is practiced.
To me honestly I feel most practices are not to keep the departed happy but to keep all quarters of the living happy economically.
Being born as the son of a hindu society, his chances of getting married to the person whom he loves is very less. I dont mean by intercaste marriages. I know my cousin (a tamil iyengar) loved a telugu brahmin boy of the same gothram. his parents were totally opposed for it. The boys parents liked her a lot but told we cant get u marid due to sagothra. Its since 2 years and the issue has not been solved... Even in the beginning , they decided to separate because their parents dint agree and did not want to disobey shastras. As man is a slave of circumstances , they like each other a lot n now it has gone till suicide... Can somebody tell me any dharmic way of getting them married??? or the parikarams involved ???? thanks
renuka
Well-known member
Dear RR ji,
Salwar Kameez is 2 piece..Nightie is just one piece..easy to put on and easy to remove!
Older ladies with knee problems might find wearing a Salwar Kameez a bit hard.
Last edited:
tbs
0
hi renu,
i think EASY for everything....just kidding...lol
Dear Sir,
Is 'dont' is added by mistake?
Somehow, I never had a liking for nighties right from my young age. I prefer simple chudidhars as night dress.
I have invented a very simple cutting and can stitch one set in 40 minutes!
yes error. since corrected. thanks...
.
I am not very knowledgeable on these. So I asked some one who knows. The answer I got was:
1.Put is only one of the Narakas (hells) that the soul is condemned to. There are many others. So a puthran may save you from just the puth and not from others.
2.See answer 1.
3.See answer 1. There is no contradiction. As long as your karmas remain not exhausted you will be born again and again.
4.Shraddam has nothing to do with rebirth. It takes care of the soul during its journey after death. That s all. It is more for your own satisfaction.
and
This is important: If you surrender yourself to God (saranaagati) You need worry about nothing. You go straight to God.
renuka
Well-known member
renu,
when i read 'emergency' i confess my thoughts strayed on the one pertaining to the romantic kind. the nightie works there too
LOL!
the nightie works there too
And so does the Lungi! That's why I call the Lungi/Vesthi..weapons of mass reproduction!
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
suraju06,
Your last sentence contradicts your previous statements.
If I get Mukthi why should my soul go to any hell? This is totally against the concept of Moksha/Mukthi.
If my Karmas are exhausted then why should my soul go to hell?
The concept of different hells is in contradiction to Advaita Vedanta concept.
Can your Knowledgeable person explain the place of these hells and Lokas in Advaita Vedanta? I have not found it on any book on Advaita Vedanta.
About the basis for Shraddham
<<Another belief is that the souls of dead remain in peace in Pitru Loka as a result of the rituals performed by their children or relatives. It is also said that the dead bless them for this and it helps the children and relatives to lead a good life on earth.>>
It assumes that all ancestors stay in a place called Pitru Loka. How does this conform to the belief in Rebirth?
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
You hit the nail on the head. These practices are necessary for the Purohits to make a living. Now their main ally in this are the Astrologers They talk only about Pitru Dhosha/Sapam and Deiva kurram. They suggest homams like Tila homam which is considered the ultimate for pleasing the Ancestors. And then a lot of pariharams for pleasing the Gods and planets. All yielding income for the Purohits.
Hinduism especially of the Tamil Brahmin variety has become a religion of pariharams and shraddhams. Tamil Brahmins are followers of Mimansa.
These rituals are part of Mimansa which was rejected by Adi Sankara who enunciated Advaita. The strange part is Mimansa does not believe in a supreme GOD.
Mim
We talk a lot of theory. Karma, Brahman etc. etc. You will find a lot of people participating in any discussion on the nature of Brahman, theory of Karma and similar topics. But when it comes to practice we tend to forget all their theories and blindly follow the purohits. Blind superstitions.
We quote Bhagavad Gita at the drop of a hat for everything. Does the Gita talk about the Naraks/Lokas and Antyesti? I do not know. Some one can enlighten me.
This is really relevant to my O.P. I will explain in my next post.
Dear SS,
My source further clarified:
There is no contradiction if you know the principle of Saranagati. If you do saranagathi you become a prapanna-in tamil it is called செய்த வேள்வி. Even anthim smruthi of God is not required for a prapanna. You go straight to God and there will be no rebirth, nor any visit to naraka. The anthyeshti etc. in such a case are just rituals. May be they cover the period of passage of the soul to God.
Pitruloka is the 'space' where the soul travels after death. It exists there until rebirth.
Cheers.
My source further clarified:
.
There is no contradiction if you know the principle of Saranagati. If you do saranagathi you become a prapanna-in tamil it is called செய்த வேள்வி. Even anthim smruthi of God is not required for a prapanna. You go straight to God and there will be no rebirth, nor any visit to naraka. The anthyeshti etc. in such a case are just rituals. May be they cover the period of passage of the soul to God.
If get either moksha or go to hell. If you go to moksha it means the karma in your account is wiped out by God.
No hell for you if your karmas are extinguished.
Please ask an Advaita knowledge source for this.
Please ask your Advaita knowledge source. If you are asking for these lokas to be "shown" to you in the time-space world, sorry I have no answer.
Pitruloka is the 'space' where the soul travels after death. It exists there until rebirth.
Cheers.
Last edited:
sangom
0
Dear Shri Sarmah,
What your Professor said is quite right. But I differ only in that the death ceremonies which are being followed even now, are not primitive but well-integrated with the rigvedic beliefs. The rigveda postulates one pitruloka for all the humans. Yama, who was the first human to die and go to that pitruloka was the first explorer of those regions and he is the king thereof.
Brahmanas who perform all the yaagas and yajnas prescribed for them, during their sojourn in this world, occupy the pride of place in the pitruloka; those who amass a lot of 'punya' by performing very many of the sacrifices, enjoy status equal to the Devas when they reach the pitruloka and they are of equal status to King Yama. Such first class pitrus are denoted as "angirasaH pitrus". As we recite in our Tarpana mantras, உதீரதாம் அவர உத் பராஸ: உன் மத்யமா: பிதர: (udīratām avara ut parāsa: uṉ madhyamā: pitara
, the pitrus are of three kinds, uttama, madhyama and adhama and the word avara, paraasa: madhyamaa: denote these.There is no rebirth according to the stream of thought which we find all through the rigveda, though today, people are striving their best to establish the contrary. Notions such as Brahman, Atma, rebirth etc., all seem to be products of the upanishadic times.
Last edited:
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
Thank You, Sangom. You put in a nutshell succinctly.
So a Tamil Brahmin by performs these and other rituals as a Vaidhika Brahmin.
I leave it at that because this discussion is not about Antyesti and other rituals, but the effect of belief in these rituals on the parents and sons.
So a Tamil Brahmin by performs these and other rituals as a Vaidhika Brahmin.
I leave it at that because this discussion is not about Antyesti and other rituals, but the effect of belief in these rituals on the parents and sons.
tbs
0
hi
if u know or not...u can ask raghy sir...he knows very well..he can explain better than me...
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
Most of the parents would like to stay near their children or with them. This is a Universal fact. A survey has reveled that in the U.S most of the old parents live within an hours driving from at least one of their children. Tamil Brahmins are not the only people in the world who love their children. Every parent does.
Most parents would like to stay near their children because
1. They would like the children to help them physically.
2. They love grand children.
3. Given a choice they would also like to meddle in the lives of children. -)
What differentiates the Tamil Brahmins and traditional Hindus is that their need for the sons is a desperate need. This is because of Antyesti. They believe that they would go to hell if the son does not perform the last rites.
The worst or the greatest fear is called Maha Bhaya. That is Fear of death. Every one has this fear. But it is more acute in older people. The fear of death is compounded by the fear of கோவிந்தாக் கொள்ளி. Fear of going to Hell.
I remember one of our neighbors in Madras. The father was staying with the last son. The eldest son was a no good. He used to come asking for money from the father. He would always threaten the father with his Brahmasthram. நான் உனக்கு கொள்ளி வைக்கமாட்டேன். Immediately the father would yield. He had five sons.
Different generations of Tamil Brahmins have dealt with this differently.
My Grand father's generation: My village was full of old people whose sons were working outside. Many of these parents had tried to prevent the sons from going far away from the village. They were afraid that the son may not reach in time for Antyesti. They were right in the sense that it could take take sometime three days to reach from one end of India to another. The communications were also rudimentary.
These parents were accused of standing in the way of their sons bright future. Most of them were later forced to leave the village and live with their sons. They did very reluctantly because of the fear of hell.
My father's Generation: Most of them did not have a problem with the sons going to places in India. But they were totally opposed to sons going abroad. Sons who went to U.S and U.K for higher studies were expected to return home. Most of them did do so.
I remember the time when some of my friends decided to try migrating abroad. I joined them. Emigration Visas were available on a very selective basis for Engineers to emigrate to U.S and U.K. Time 1968. My parents almost blew up when they heard of my plans. In fact none of my friend emigrated because of the reaction of the parents.
I remember the amusing incident when we were standing in a queue for U.K Visa forms. When our turn came the woman who was distributing the forms ("Nice woman who looked like my Mom") said "you children want to leave your families? No. You are not getting the form. Go home." She refused to give the forms to us. She gave the form only to my friend from Kenya who was a British resident.
When my Brother in law went to U.S for higher studies we we wanted him to come back. My FIL told him so. He came back. But later when he wanted to migrate to Australia we were shocked. There were lot of heated discussion with every one trying to persuade him NOT to go to Australia. Of course he did.
This again was because of the fear of their sons not reaching in time for Antyesti. Many of them also later moved in with their sons.
But living with their son was NOT an automatic choice.
My Generation: The trend was going towards encouraging the children to go abroad. Many of them seem to believe that Green Card is ஜன்ம சாபல்யம்.
They were not much bothered about Antyesti because they assumed that they would be living with their sons when they are old.
Living with the sons became the norm only in this generation.
Because of the restriction in emigration many of them are forced to stay alone with the fear of their son not reaching in time for Antyesti.
I am told that we have now facilities for keeping the bodies intact for a long period of time.
[Contd]
Most parents would like to stay near their children because
1. They would like the children to help them physically.
2. They love grand children.
3. Given a choice they would also like to meddle in the lives of children. -)
What differentiates the Tamil Brahmins and traditional Hindus is that their need for the sons is a desperate need. This is because of Antyesti. They believe that they would go to hell if the son does not perform the last rites.
The worst or the greatest fear is called Maha Bhaya. That is Fear of death. Every one has this fear. But it is more acute in older people. The fear of death is compounded by the fear of கோவிந்தாக் கொள்ளி. Fear of going to Hell.
I remember one of our neighbors in Madras. The father was staying with the last son. The eldest son was a no good. He used to come asking for money from the father. He would always threaten the father with his Brahmasthram. நான் உனக்கு கொள்ளி வைக்கமாட்டேன். Immediately the father would yield. He had five sons.
Different generations of Tamil Brahmins have dealt with this differently.
My Grand father's generation: My village was full of old people whose sons were working outside. Many of these parents had tried to prevent the sons from going far away from the village. They were afraid that the son may not reach in time for Antyesti. They were right in the sense that it could take take sometime three days to reach from one end of India to another. The communications were also rudimentary.
These parents were accused of standing in the way of their sons bright future. Most of them were later forced to leave the village and live with their sons. They did very reluctantly because of the fear of hell.
My father's Generation: Most of them did not have a problem with the sons going to places in India. But they were totally opposed to sons going abroad. Sons who went to U.S and U.K for higher studies were expected to return home. Most of them did do so.
I remember the time when some of my friends decided to try migrating abroad. I joined them. Emigration Visas were available on a very selective basis for Engineers to emigrate to U.S and U.K. Time 1968. My parents almost blew up when they heard of my plans. In fact none of my friend emigrated because of the reaction of the parents.
I remember the amusing incident when we were standing in a queue for U.K Visa forms. When our turn came the woman who was distributing the forms ("Nice woman who looked like my Mom") said "you children want to leave your families? No. You are not getting the form. Go home." She refused to give the forms to us. She gave the form only to my friend from Kenya who was a British resident.
When my Brother in law went to U.S for higher studies we we wanted him to come back. My FIL told him so. He came back. But later when he wanted to migrate to Australia we were shocked. There were lot of heated discussion with every one trying to persuade him NOT to go to Australia. Of course he did.
This again was because of the fear of their sons not reaching in time for Antyesti. Many of them also later moved in with their sons.
But living with their son was NOT an automatic choice.
My Generation: The trend was going towards encouraging the children to go abroad. Many of them seem to believe that Green Card is ஜன்ம சாபல்யம்.
They were not much bothered about Antyesti because they assumed that they would be living with their sons when they are old.
Living with the sons became the norm only in this generation.
Because of the restriction in emigration many of them are forced to stay alone with the fear of their son not reaching in time for Antyesti.
I am told that we have now facilities for keeping the bodies intact for a long period of time.
[Contd]
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
I am writing all this because the Sons are held responsible for ensuring that their parents do not go to Hell. A Huge responsibility.
Though I might plead that daughters also should share this responsibility, it is not going to happen in a short time.
In my opinion, there are two ways of handling this.
Parents: You have to share this fear with your children. Discuss ways and means of solving this problem.
Of course I can always argue against Antyesti. You need not accept my arguements. But do your own reaerch. Has Krishna in Bagavd Gita said that one would go to hell if Antyeshti is not performed? Find out for yourself. Do the Upanishads say this? Find out. This may allay your fears andd also make you more spiritual.
Sons: You may call Antyeshti a blind belief. But it is a belief that your parents have. Their fear is based on that belief. So you have to address the Fear. Assure them that you would perform Antyeshti.
I do not believe in Antyesti. But I did all the karyams for my father because he believed in it.
Note: All my children live in India. I did not want my children to go abroad because I wanted them to reach me in a short time and i also wanted that I should be able to visit them easily. When my son went abroad frequently, we did have some apprehensions. He was also offered jobs abroad. He did not accept them. I offered to send the other son abroad for higher education because many of his friend were doing it. But he did not go because the qualifications from there were not valued in India. All the children of my brothers and sisters are abroad. My siblings have accused me of spoiling the career of my children.
I am posting this note so that you would understand my point of view.
Though I might plead that daughters also should share this responsibility, it is not going to happen in a short time.
In my opinion, there are two ways of handling this.
Parents: You have to share this fear with your children. Discuss ways and means of solving this problem.
Of course I can always argue against Antyesti. You need not accept my arguements. But do your own reaerch. Has Krishna in Bagavd Gita said that one would go to hell if Antyeshti is not performed? Find out for yourself. Do the Upanishads say this? Find out. This may allay your fears andd also make you more spiritual.
Sons: You may call Antyeshti a blind belief. But it is a belief that your parents have. Their fear is based on that belief. So you have to address the Fear. Assure them that you would perform Antyeshti.
I do not believe in Antyesti. But I did all the karyams for my father because he believed in it.
Note: All my children live in India. I did not want my children to go abroad because I wanted them to reach me in a short time and i also wanted that I should be able to visit them easily. When my son went abroad frequently, we did have some apprehensions. He was also offered jobs abroad. He did not accept them. I offered to send the other son abroad for higher education because many of his friend were doing it. But he did not go because the qualifications from there were not valued in India. All the children of my brothers and sisters are abroad. My siblings have accused me of spoiling the career of my children.
I am posting this note so that you would understand my point of view.
sangom
0
Dear Shri Sarmah,
This is in response to posts nos. 71 & 72 above.
It is true that my (our) previous generations were more driven by the time-honoured belief of the eldest son performing the anthyeshti. But if you read our scriptures a bit more carefully, you will see that it is the seemanta putra or "first born" son who is the most preferred for this matter, and, so to say, the ideal. But many people do not get a seemanta putra but have seemanta putri and a male progeny is got only as the second, third or the nth. offspring; some couples have, in the past, given up after attempting like Robert Bruce and have left behind 6,7, 8 etc., daughters and no sons also.
I am told by authoritative sources that Krishna died when both Vasudeva and Devaki were still alive. I don't know whether this is true as per scriptures. If this be true, then would not Krishna the compulsive schemer have ensured the death of his parents and their antyeshti by himself?
From what you have written, I feel you could have been a little more condescending to your sons and allowed them to settle abroad as citizens there, especially since you personally do not believe in the motto of பிள்ளை கையாலெ ஒரு கொள்ளி! I have allowed my three sons to do what they think best for themselves. All three have become foreign citizens in US and UK. They may or may not be able to come in time for burning my body after my death but I have no problem with anybody lighting the funeral pyre, and this I have made clear to my sons. (I don't know whether my wife fully supports this but, for the time being, she also holds the same view.)
My FIL was particular about this பிள்ளை கையாலெ ஒரு கொள்ளி and my BIL did not go abroad for job. Now it appears to me that my BIL, who is 10 years younger to me, is carrying on this family legacy and his only son is not even attempting to go abroad !
This is in response to posts nos. 71 & 72 above.
It is true that my (our) previous generations were more driven by the time-honoured belief of the eldest son performing the anthyeshti. But if you read our scriptures a bit more carefully, you will see that it is the seemanta putra or "first born" son who is the most preferred for this matter, and, so to say, the ideal. But many people do not get a seemanta putra but have seemanta putri and a male progeny is got only as the second, third or the nth. offspring; some couples have, in the past, given up after attempting like Robert Bruce and have left behind 6,7, 8 etc., daughters and no sons also.
I am told by authoritative sources that Krishna died when both Vasudeva and Devaki were still alive. I don't know whether this is true as per scriptures. If this be true, then would not Krishna the compulsive schemer have ensured the death of his parents and their antyeshti by himself?
From what you have written, I feel you could have been a little more condescending to your sons and allowed them to settle abroad as citizens there, especially since you personally do not believe in the motto of பிள்ளை கையாலெ ஒரு கொள்ளி! I have allowed my three sons to do what they think best for themselves. All three have become foreign citizens in US and UK. They may or may not be able to come in time for burning my body after my death but I have no problem with anybody lighting the funeral pyre, and this I have made clear to my sons. (I don't know whether my wife fully supports this but, for the time being, she also holds the same view.)
My FIL was particular about this பிள்ளை கையாலெ ஒரு கொள்ளி and my BIL did not go abroad for job. Now it appears to me that my BIL, who is 10 years younger to me, is carrying on this family legacy and his only son is not even attempting to go abroad !
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
I do not think my sons "not going abroad" is because of my wishes. They studied in a residential school. They left home at the age of 10. It just so happens that they do not want to settle down abroad. Attachment to India. It is their choice.
As Carl Schurz said "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. "
Even that statement has been questioned.
'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'
When did Patriotism become an outmoded concept/belief?
As Carl Schurz said "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. "
Even that statement has been questioned.
'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'
When did Patriotism become an outmoded concept/belief?
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status
Share this page
Share this page
Latest posts
-
Time of Birth for Casting Birth Horoscope; Why in many cases Horoscope reading is not accurate ?- Latest: Padmanabhan Janakiraman
-
Narayaneeyam Chanting for Curing Diseases:
- Latest: Padmanabhan Janakiraman
-
-
Latest ads
-
Wanted Fulltime care person neededLooking for a fulltime lady who can look after 80 yr old person who has dementia. She can manage...
- vashok (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated:
- Expires
-
Free [Bride Wanted] Bride WantedLooking for Bride - Family Oriented and brought up from Cultured Family
- SRIKANT S -(Bride Wanted) (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated:
- Expires
-
-
Free [Bride Wanted] TAMIL BRAHMIN VADAMA BRIDE WANTEDMust to be willing to relocate to Bengaluru Must be willing to accommodate joint family
- self today (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated:
- Expires
-
Wanted [Cook Wanted] Wanted cook for Home at Gandhipuram Coimbatore. Decent Salary offeredHi, we need a female Brahmin cook for home ( 5 members family) at Coimbatore. Morning and...
- gchitra (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated: