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The World According To Gita

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Strange is the way of the world..
An Archaka's love for his temple is taken to be an ego based desire....
But when a personal opinion is challenged..the bruised ego launches a thousand words.
How do we really know what lies in the heart of one who serves God?
After all we humans even love our children with the desire for continuation of lineage and identity.
Show me a person who isnt bound and I will show you a stiff in the morgue.

I also feel that the said Archakar not willing to leave that job, even though he is a retired Bank Officer and so on, is more because he is unable to think of his god as anything different from that stone idol in that temple. This is probably one of the fall-outs of bhakti. There is absolutely no need to "serve God", because God does not at all need any 'service'; those who claim that they are serving God, may be a right thing in the Abrahamic religions but not in Hinduism.

As for your challenge, I feel the Siddhars were of that category but, obviously, I will not be able to show any one of them to you today!
 
Mayavi

thank you.

I appreciate positive feedback.


Lets see what we can call it.

1)reductionist...not possible becos a reductionist reduces everything to nothing.he does not acknowledge all or none as the reverse and obverse sides of a coin.

So neti neti!

2)deconstructionist...a deconstructionist tries to dissect everything into atoms and subatoms..when he is thirsty instead of drinking water he tries to figure out the structure of h20.
So he never sees the whole picture ever.

Neti neti yet again!




So what should we call it?

I leave it to you to decide.
 
Tks in #12:

I consider your responses (post #9 and 10) to be arising are from a theological and faith indoctrinated mindset. At the outset I expressed that theological beliefs and philosophical discussions do not mix since the latter is subject to understanding and reasoning and the former is not (post #5). I thought you might rise above your proclivities and beliefs to engage in a reason based discussion in examining what is happening in the society at large. I think you have proved me wrong!

Let us settle this issue first. You think faith and theology have their origin In indoctrination shorn of logic and reasoning. Let us accept this as true for a moment and move to the next issue. You have also asserted that philosophies and a discussion on them is subject to understanding and reasoning.

I have a question to ask you. If philosophy determines after discussion and reasoning, please tell me where is the proof that soul exists? If it exists what are its characteristics? Is there not an element of indoctrination and faith involved in our understanding of soul, paramatman, the universal consciousness etc.,? Or is it your case that all these are neti neti neti and there is something else about which you are posting here under philosophy? There is no real proof for anything beyond a point and at that we accept it and move and that is also called faith. So there is really no difference between faith and philosophy the way you are labouring at. One is accepting by perhaps intuition at the beginning of the understanding itself while the other is accepting after a lot of hairsplitting and a lot of dukrun karane. This is the gist of what I am trying to tell you.

There are few issues in your response
In Post# 8 I noted (paraphrasing) that Bhakti per my understanding of Shastras is neither

emotion - often confused as Bhakti in this context and feeling superior over thinking types

or intellectualization often confused as Advaitic thinking and feeling superior over Bhakti types.

AndI gave examples of bhaktas from the past and they are not intellectuals based on their work (e.g., Meerabai).
In other words it is neither emotion nor intellectualization and any love of a Murthy is without basis and at best an emotional reaction to some faith based imagination and delusion. In other words it is not related to mind activities at all!

That is your understanding of what is emotion and what is intellectualization. I have differences with you on that.

2. It is one thing to have an emotional reaction based on faith. It is another thing to attack personally instead of addressing the topic only. You say I am in an ivory tower and commanding me to get down, you attribute by reluctance as intellectual arrogance .

You have the freedom to interpret my reply as you want. But I would consider it as an attempt to digress. Ivory tower and golden cage are imageries used to make a point clear. When a person wants everything to be dissected into its micro parts in order to understand it he misses the holistic knowledge contained therein in that system. This is the point I wanted to make by imageries. I do not know you personally and You know very well that I have no reason to have any grudge against you. So why should I indulge in an “attack”?.

I spent some time browsing your recent posts and I came across your advice to others which you are not seemingly following . Here are your words
"When I am unable to marshal arguments to counter a member on points he has presented here, I do the next best thing. Brand him, typecast him add a tag and then put him in a pigeon hole and declare to the world at large that here is a specimen from the distant past in a pigeon hole. LOL."

While I do not like to engage you in a wasteful argument on language and respect for each other, I would just tell you this that that quote was in a context and that context has no resemblance to this context. Do you believe that you have proposed some great original theory and I have lost my argument because I am unable to prove your discovery wrong? And so I am trying to brand you and put you in a pigeon hole? LOL.




The Archakars like the one in the example (not the exact person mentioned) tend to have deep desire for their theology & ego identity which represents bondage to Samsara. Bhakti as defined in our Shastras is not realizable for anyone that is under the spell of bondage. Here is a verse from 10th century AD or so worth reflecting on in the context of temples and ritual which are good starting point but not good ending point.
கோயிலாவதுஏதடா குளங்களாவது ஏதடா
கோயிலும்குளங்களும் கும்பிடும் குலாமரே
கோயிலும்மனத்துளே குளங்களும் மனத்துளே
ஆவதும்அழிவதும் இல்லைஇல்லை இல்லையே.
The issues namely responding with the faith based indoctrination, responding without attempting to comprehend what was said and resorting to personal attacks means that it is not possible for me to have any reasonable discussions with you.

I repeat you have not understood the archakar. You will never understand/comprehend. With the “philosophy” of shunya close to your bosom and with a slave like devotion to it which has come out of indoctrination there is no hope that you will ever understand the bhakti. Be happy with your “ philosophy” of இல்லைஇல்லை இல்லவே இல்லையே. That will be good for you because you may not be able bear the severity of the truth if and when it dawns on you.

I do not plan to be reading any of your posts when I visit the forum site.

That again is a position statement. As if the world is waiting with bated breath for knowing your position. I do not care. This post is for the readers here and not for tks.
 
Strange is the way of the world..
An Archaka's love for his temple is taken to be an ego based desire....
But when a personal opinion is challenged..the bruised ego launches a thousand words.
How do we really know what lies in the heart of one who serves God?
After all we humans even love our children with the desire for continuation of lineage and identity.
Show me a person who isnt bound and I will show you a stiff in the morgue.
Dear Madam Renuka
I do not claim to follow all the detailed discussions. The word ego is used often. I read your message that has a challenge and an 'attitude' - Not sure how to describe it.
You seem to be talking about other's ego - does it make you egotistical too or have a bruised ego?
 
I also feel that the said Archakar not willing to leave that job, even though he is a retired Bank Officer and so on, is more because he is unable to think of his god as anything different from that stone idol in that temple. This is probably one of the fall-outs of bhakti. There is absolutely no need to "serve God", because God does not at all need any 'service'; those who claim that they are serving God, may be a right thing in the Abrahamic religions but not in Hinduism.

As for your challenge, I feel the Siddhars were of that category but, obviously, I will not be able to show any one of them to you today!

Dear Mr Sangom

I do not understand the content of many posts in this thread though I am able to understand your post. Does this idea of Bhakti based on how one is raised? Does our scriptures define Bhakti or it is defined by various Gurus according to their taste?



For example, I never understood worship of a person like Sathya Sai Baba who did many magic tricks which seem to be violation of laws of nature (like producing gold items). Yet there are many who describe themselves as devotees and Bhakthas. In what way are they different from devotion of priest to a temple deity?


And how does one become a Siddha?

Thank you
 
Dear Madam Renuka
I do not claim to follow all the detailed discussions. The word ego is used often. I read your message that has a challenge and an 'attitude' - Not sure how to describe it.
You seem to be talking about other's ego - does it make you egotistical too or have a bruised ego?


dear TB,

I would like to direct your attention to my last line where I said..show me a person who is not bound and I will show you a stiff in the morgue.

So lets begin!

Bound is becos of Ahamkara..the Ego..the I am the doer-ship feeling.

Even to reply you post my Ego needs to kick into action..becos first I need to identify myself as Renuka..so if I feel I am Renuka..that means I have identified myself with my form,name and body.
So I am bound like anyone else and is also living with body and name identification which has Ego as the substratum.

Now lets discuss ego..

What is Ego?

Its hard to describe becos technically Ego does not really exists.

It is fragile yet can have tensile strength too..it is malleable yet rigid..it can change from soft to hard and from hard to soft anytime.

Even the most humble person on earth will have an ego that he is the most humble on earth.

Now coming to your last line that "You seem to be talking about other's ego - does it make you egotistical too or have a bruised ego?"


Ego is collective..the whole world has ego..everyone is guilty for supplying a network of ego..so there is no such thing as my ego or your ego or anyone's ego..its everyone's ego.

So all of us are interconnected without we even knowing it.

Now coming to bruised ego..naah what bruised yaar..I havent fought with anyone.

When I fight and if my ego gets bruised then I am usually not so poetic.

So its one of my good mood days to be poetic.

Finally coming to me being egoistic..I dont really know?

I feel a balanced person is neither arrogant nor humble..but even then ego is the substratum of both.

BTW there was no challenge cos I did not offer a reward!LOL

Attitude? I dont know? I never gave it a thought.

Yes....I agree with you that an attitude and challenge is hard to describe or even hard to proof.
 
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dear TB,

I would like to direct your attention to my last line where I said..show me a person who is not bound and I will show you a stiff in the morgue.

So lets begin!

Bound is becos of Ahamkara..the Ego..the I am the doer-ship feeling.

Even to reply you post my Ego needs to kick into action..becos first I need to identify myself as Renuka..so if I feel I am Renuka..that means I have identified myself with my form,name and body.
So I am bound like anyone else and is also living with body and name identification which has Ego as the substratum.

Now lets discuss ego..

What is Ego?

Its hard to describe becos technically Ego does not really exists.

It is fragile yet can have tensile strength too..it is malleable yet rigid..it can change from soft to hard and from hard to soft anytime.

Even the most humble person on earth will have an ego that he is the most humble on earth.

Now coming to your last line that "You seem to be talking about other's ego - does it make you egotistical too or have a bruised ego?"


Ego is collective..the whole world has ego..everyone is guilty for supplying a network of ego..so there is no such thing as my ego or your ego or anyone's ego..its everyone's ego.

So all of us are interconnected without we even knowing it.

Now coming to bruised ego..naah what bruised yaar..I havent fought with anyone.

When I fight and if my ego gets bruised then I am usually not so poetic.

So its one of my good mood days to be poetic.

Finally coming to me being egoistic..I dont really know?

I feel a balanced person is neither arrogant nor humble..but even then ego is the substratum of both.

BTW there was no challenge cos I did not offer a reward!LOL

Attitude? I dont know? I never gave it a thought.

Yes....I agree with you that an attitude and challenge is hard to describe or even hard to proof.



Dear Madam Renuka:

Thanks for your reply.

Interesting- raises more questions.

** Technically ego does not exist but why is everyone guilty of supplying ego?

** If there is no 'my ego' and 'your ego' how can ego be bruised?

** How can poem in a discussion be cause of a bruised ego whatever that is?

** I asked a friend who is expert in Tamil poems and he translated the meaning of that poem as -- " Temples and ponds (and hence stone deities ) only are in our mind which means they get destroyed in passing of time. How can they hold God that has no beginning and no destruction in passing of time".

Is is this not relevant to the discussion and not related to any ego directly?
 
My answers in Blue.


Dear Madam Renuka:

Thanks for your reply.

Interesting- raises more questions.

** Technically ego does not exist but why is everyone guilty of supplying ego?

Becos as long as the ego exists..we are not innocent!

** If there is no 'my ego' and 'your ego' how can ego be bruised?

Yes it can..universal bruising and universal healing.

A few people of similar understanding and upbringing can have very similar Ahamkara becos they identify with similar ideals..so they might bond stronger all purely due to Ahamkara.

The person who is free from Ahamkara..for him..the whole world is his family..only he is not bruised by anything.The rest of us are always getting bruised and we heal and the start causing bruises for others and this cycle continues.

** How can poem in a discussion be cause of a bruised ego whatever that is?

The Poem was written in a good mood time..it was not becos of bruising or causing bruises.
But anyone can pen their thoughts in poems or prose and some might even actually do so in Anusthup Chanda!LOL

** I asked a friend who is expert in Tamil poems and he translated the meaning of that poem as -- " Temples and ponds (and hence stone deities ) only are in our mind which means they get destroyed in passing of time. How can they hold God that has no beginning and no destruction in passing of time".

Poems are a fiction of our imagination..it came..it saw and it conquered (another's mind).

What is a beginning? What is an end? They are both the same technically.

To begin..one has to end ... to end one has to begin...now just imagine this occurs at a very high speed..begin/end..begin/end..at one point it becomes suspended and goes beyond time.It verily exists without a beginning or an end.


Is is this not relevant to the discussion and not related to any ego directly?
 
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My answers in Blue.

I do not know how to get the blue answers here without cutting and pasting.

Your response did not make sense to me at all. It must be only me because no one else is raising issues. I will have to do more research. I did not get any answer to my direct questions

I used to do organizational counseling as part of productivity audit and recommendations for organizations.

Something in these exchanges do not add up. When I understand better I will post what I think is going on
 
My answers in Blue.

< Clipped >

** I asked a friend who is expert in Tamil poems and he translated the meaning of that poem as -- " Temples and ponds (and hence stone deities ) only are in our mind which means they get destroyed in passing of time. How can they hold God that has no beginning and no destruction in passing of time".

Poems are a fiction of our imagination..it came..it saw and it conquered (another's mind).

What is a beginning? What is an end? They are both the same technically.

To begin..one has to end ... to end one has to begin...now just imagine this occurs at a very high speed..begin/end..begin/end..at one point it becomes suspended and goes beyond time.It verily exists without a beginning or an end.

Smt. Renuka,

The Tamil verse is a part of Siva Vaakkiyar PaaDal (Pl. google for more info.). It means,

अरे ! मन्दिर कहाँ है? तालाब कहाँ है? मन्दिर और तालाब को पूजा कर्नेवले गुलामॊं!
मन्दिर भी मन के अन्दर है, तालाब भी,
(यहाँ कुछ भी नहीं पैदा होता, न ही कुछ चीज का नाश होता है।)

This, IMHO is a view similar to that of Gaudapada:

न निरोधो न चोत्पत्तिर्न बद्धो न च साधक:। न मुमुक्षर्न वै मुक्त इत्येषा परमार्थता

Nothing is said about the temples and ponds in the mind being destroyable and so these can't hold God, etc. Siva Vaakkiyar was a Siddha who was very much against idolatry.
 
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Smt. Renuka,

The Tamil verse is a part of Siva Vaakkiyar PaaDal (Pl. google for more info.). It means,

अरे ! मन्दिर कहाँ है? तालाब कहाँ है? मन्दिर और तालाब को पूजा कर्नेवले गुलामॊं!
मन्दिर भी मन के अन्दर है, तालाब भी,
(यहाँ कुछ भी नहीं पैदा होता, न ही कुछ चीज का नाश होता है।)

This, IMHO is a view similar to that of Gaudapada:

न निरोधो न चोत्पत्तिर्न बद्धो न च साधक:। न मुमुक्षर्न वै मुक्त इत्येषा परमार्थता

Nothing is said about the temples and ponds in the mind being destroyable and so these can't hold God, etc. Siva Vaakkiyar was a Siddha who was very much against idolatry.

Dear Sangom ji,

Thank you for reply.

Actually I wonder at times why we even think that God is within?

Isn't that just shifting His location from without to within?? So how does that really differ from a person who worships an idol?

No difference! One idolizes God outside and the other idolizes God inside. Then there are those who idolize God outside,inside, above,below and everywhere and call Him Universal Consciousness(UC)/Brahman.


Isn't all these just being a hypocrite and say that one does not believe in idol/image worship but yet holds on to the idea of a God within or UC/Brahman all around?


I guess finally even the concept of God has to go..we do not have to think of any concept..not even the so called all pervading Universal Consciousness/Brahman.

Its not a state of denial but an understanding that one just can not define anything or hold on to anything and just simply Exists and just Be.
 
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Notwithstanding the "realization" of anything (or nothing :-) ), I tend to think that religion evolved as a social mechanism to counter the self-destructive freedom of thought and action that most-probably-might have taken centreplace (in the absence of religion).

There are nations that are willing to kill for religion. Willing to die. Were people to learn that there is no God or superpower to control actions of humans, it is but a licence to anarchy.

Of course, there is always the argument that humans would have evolved better were it not for religion, but, going by the less riskier method, I believe, that more blood would have shed if not for religion.

My opinion only.
 
Notwithstanding the "realization" of anything (or nothing :-) ), I tend to think that religion evolved as a social mechanism to counter the self-destructive freedom of thought and action that most-probably-might have taken centreplace (in the absence of religion).

There are nations that are willing to kill for religion. Willing to die. Were people to learn that there is no God or superpower to control actions of humans, it is but a licence to anarchy.

Of course, there is always the argument that humans would have evolved better were it not for religion, but, going by the less riskier method, I believe, that more blood would have shed if not for religion.

My opinion only.

It was a conflict between knowledge based might and physical might.

When society understood that knowledge is real power, it had to find ways to sustain that power. The physical might which was destructive came in conflict with this. So it had to be contained with the theory of religion and God. It was at the beginning thus a need based clever response by those who had better knowledge and not physical might.

Later a lot of reductionism and 'dukrun karane' happened/came into play and religion became a highly complicated matter. That too helped it retain an atmosphere of mystery and a halo. When there is something mysterious the tendency is to 1)keep away from it 2)to call it names from a safe distance 3)to fear it 4) to give it respect and give it its due without disputing. 5)try to be in the good books of it.

This is the history of religions.

LOL.
 
It was a conflict between knowledge based might and physical might.

When society understood that knowledge is real power, it had to find ways to sustain that power. The physical might which was destructive came in conflict with this. So it had to be contained with the theory of religion and God. It was at the beginning thus a need based clever response by those who had better knowledge and not physical might.

Later a lot of reductionism and 'dukrun karane' happened/came into play and religion became a highly complicated matter. That too helped it retain an atmosphere of mystery and a halo. When there is something mysterious the tendency is to 1)keep away from it 2)to call it names from a safe distance 3)to fear it 4) to give it respect and give it its due without disputing. 5)try to be in the good books of it.

This is the history of religions.

LOL.

Reg. the highlighted, it might be apt to replace knowledge with "brain"... for it is not knowledge in the real sense but only a means to supremacy.
 
Reg. the highlighted, it might be apt to replace knowledge with "brain"... for it is not knowledge in the real sense but only a means to supremacy.

There may be a brain alright. But it may not be used at all. Moreover brain is again physical.LOL.
 
Dear Sangom ji,

Thank you for reply.

Actually I wonder at times why we even think that God is within?

Isn't that just shifting His location from without to within?? So how does that really differ from a person who worships an idol?

No difference! One idolizes God outside and the other idolizes God inside. Then there are those who idolize God outside,inside, above,below and everywhere and call Him Universal Consciousness(UC)/Brahman.


Isn't all these just being a hypocrite and say that one does not believe in idol/image worship but yet holds on to the idea of a God within or UC/Brahman all around?


I guess finally even the concept of God has to go..we do not have to think of any concept..not even the so called all pervading Universal Consciousness/Brahman.

Its not a state of denial but an understanding that one just can not define anything or hold on to anything and just simply Exists and just Be.

Smt. Renuka,

The point I would like to emphasize is that when you (or, I) think of the "god within", it is neither necessary nor correct to think of god only in the form of an idol, anthropomorphic and all that. It is possible to think of a god of completely different category. But for that, first one should try and get out of the fixation that "god" means, always, idolization, idolatry, doing poojas of the conventional types, singing praises of that idolized god in the form of bhajans, doing naivedyam, Arti, etc., and so on and so forth. Some time ago, I had quoted a verse from Tirumoolar's Tirumantiram, as under:

உள்ளம் பெருங்கோவில், ஊனுடம்பு ஆலயம்
வள்ளல்‍ பிரானுக்கு வாய் கோபுரவாசல்
தெள்ளத்தெளிந்தார்க்கு சீவன் சிவலிங்கம்
கள்ளப்புலன் ஐந்தும் காளாமணி விளக்கே

(uḷḷam peruṅkovil, ūṉuṭampu ālayam
vaḷḷal- pirāṉukku vāy kopuravācal
teḷḷatteḷintārkku cīvaṉ civaliṅkam
kaḷḷappulaṉ aintum kāḷāmaṇi viḷakke)

It will be noticed that "life" or cīvaṉ is named as the Sivalingam and not any imagined Sivalingam as the "vaḷḷal- pirāṉ" or god. That is the difference between simple, obsessive, compulsive idolatry and the idea that I am putting forward.
 
Delusional Devotee Mania/Syndrome (DDM)

I thought I will share my concluding thoughts for this thread.

Let me state few points of clarification first.

1. I am not against temples, rituals etc. They enrich our lives and provides a sense of hope for people to deal with hidden variables as they go about dealing with their worry/fear and their endless desires. Swami Vivekananda has spoken wonderfully as to how a culture rich with tradition and rituals tend to produce great Mahatmas that benefit the world (I am paraphrasing).

2. My comments in this thread is not about Bhakthi and Jnanam *as defined in our scriptures*. In fact they are about delusion and ignorance seen in our practice.

3. My posts tend to be long and if possible I will split the content into more than one post. The reason is that I have limited the time I spend here (due to other priorities). To be effective and efficient , I have chosen to read posts of only few people based on their persona established by their writing here and respond to very few if I have something to share. I am not looking to read posts of people that agree with me but those that are informative and well thought out. In this thread I think Sri Sangom has few illuminating posts (and in the absence of 'Like' feature I am stating this).

When I share or respond I want to put time in the thoughts I share (with some relevant references) even if no one is interested in reading what I write . I feel the forum does well when people participate by posting periodically.

4. I do not want to use the word Bhakthi and appear to speak against it. Our scriptures that can be understood by us does not negate Isvara or Bhakthi. I am only speaking against the beliefs about a magician God of Cosmos and 'Delusional Devotee Mania / Syndrome' (DDM for short) masquerading as Bhakthi to that God. (Puranas do have magician God but they serve a different purpose)

5. DDM not only not make sense for anyone that is committed to know the truth, they also are not supported by our scriptures. One can take a quote here and there from B. Gita or Upanishad to make a point about DDM but when one reconciles across all key verses of B.Gita for example they provide a different vision for Bhakthi.

6. Examples of DDM include the following:

- Chanting large number of verses like even Vishnu Sahasranamam etc without knowing the profound meaning of even a single name. In fact chanting is often done in a blah blah manner (with possibly incorrect pronunciation, incorrect intonation, not know the meaning and not having the right Bhava arising out of understanding). Many priests tend fall into this category

- Being in love with a deity or image in a temple

- Doing Pada Puja for a person

- Worshipping a human person believing in his miracles (Acharya Upasana in Chapter 13 in B.Gita has an entirely a different meaning)

- Competing by creating rituals that essentially says ' Mine or My so and so is bigger than your so and so' . For example one person says he wants to conduct a campaign to light 1000 lamps. Another ups the number and goes for 1 lakh lamps. I heard there was an event to light 1 crore lamps wasting enormous resources.

- All kinds of superstitious activities and negotiation activities with 'God'


Let me split the rest into another post which is to share my thoughts as to how to reconciling traditional rituals with DDM behaviour. There is no need for one to be an intellectual to understand ill effects of superstition which is what DDM is all about.
 
Finally I want to state how we can respect tradition and rituals without getting afflicted with DDM (see previous post for definition)

Let me use two quotes of Swami Vivekananda first:

“Experience is the only source of knowledge. The same methods of investigation which we apply to the sciences and to exterior knowledge should be applied to religion. If a religion is destroyed by such investigation and found it was nothing but a useless and unworthy superstition; the sooner it disappeared the better. Why religions should claim that they are not bound to abide by the standpoint of reason no one knows. For it is better that mankind should become atheist by following reason than blindly believe in two hundred million gods on the authority of anybody. Perhaps there are prophets, who have passed the limits of sense and obtained a glimpse of the beyond. We shall believe it only when we can do the same ourselves; not before. It is said that reason is not strong enough, that often it makes mistakes. If reason is weak why should a body of priests be considered any better guides? ~Swami Vivekananda

And beware of superstition. I would rather see everyone of you rank atheists than superstitious fools, for the atheist is alive, and you can make something of him. But if superstition enters, the brain is gone, the brain is softening, degradation has seized upon the life. Mystery-mongering and superstition are always signs of weakness.” ~Swami Vivekananda

When our children were very young we used to watch this show called Sesame Street with them and other kids. It used to feature creative characters. We even went to a place called Sesame Street in Pennsylvania where s actors wearing the costumes walk around (like 'Big Bird') . The show had a way of teaching very interesting aspects of life to young children in an imaginative manner. Many kids used to get together in our house to watch such shows.

Our rituals (role plays) and tradition are like that.

Imagine a bunch of 40+ year old all getting together for watching Sesame Street (not for their kids but for themselves). Something will be odd then.

It is one thing to watch Science Fiction movies to get inspired to study science. It is a delusional mind if it thinks science fiction is science.

All expressions of so called surrender and Bhakthi are just imaginations of our mind. What is ironic across all cultures is that many people who otherwise work with facts and reason in every walk of life tend to have selective amnesia when it comes to their 'God' and their delusions (DDM).

Our scriptures are unique because they do not preach DDM like the biblical religions. But that has not stopped large body of religions in India to become superstitious.

One does not have to be very educated to realize all this. They just need to have a quest to know the truth.

When a student is ready right teacher appears to reach the next level of understanding and Bhakthi.

Sometime ago I took an intro class with an American person to learn Panini grammar. He is a householder, a vedantist and wonderful being. He accidentally came across our teaching and then spent last 15 years learning in his spare time and used his visits to India very wisely. He is a Bhakta as well in my view. Many in India are much more fortunate being so close to many places of learning but instead it has produced superstitious beings specializing in new forms of DDM everyday.

Here is a verse from the poet Kabir (translation in English is available by Tagore) that talks about how 'close' this Isvara really is and what Bhakti means.

मोको. कहाँ तू ढूं.ढे. बंदे.
हो.. मोको. कहाँ तू ढूं.ढे. बंदे.
मैं. तो. तेरे पास में.
हो… मैं. तो. तेरे पास में.


ना मैं दे.वल, ना मैं मसजिद
ना काबे.कैला.समें..
ना तो. को.ई, क्रिया. कर्म में.
नहीं यो. ग बैरा.ग में.


खोजी हो.य तो, तुरते मिलिहो
पल भर की. तला.श में..
कहे. कबी.र, सुनो भाई सा.धो
सब स्वासों. की स्वास में.


Peace!
 
6. Examples of DDM include the following:

- Chanting large number of verses like even Vishnu Sahasranamam etc without knowing the profound meaning of even a single name. In fact chanting is often done in a blah blah manner (with possibly incorrect pronunciation, incorrect intonation, not know the meaning and not having the right Bhava arising out of understanding). Many priests tend fall into this category

- Being in love with a deity or image in a temple

- Doing Pada Puja for a person

- Worshipping a human person believing in his miracles (Acharya Upasana in Chapter 13 in B.Gita has an entirely a different meaning)

- Competing by creating rituals that essentially says ' Mine or My so and so is bigger than your so and so' . For example one person says he wants to conduct a campaign to light 1000 lamps. Another ups the number and goes for 1 lakh lamps. I heard there was an event to light 1 crore lamps wasting enormous resources.

- All kinds of superstitious activities and negotiation activities with 'God'


Let me split the rest into another post which is to share my thoughts as to how to reconciling traditional rituals with DDM behaviour. There is no need for one to be an intellectual to understand ill effects of superstition which is what DDM is all about.


Delusion and Mania are symptoms of a disorder or syndrome.

So the Nomenclature here does not seem very accurate.

Delusion Devotee Mania/Syndrome technically does not jive.

It would be more accurate to call it Devotee Syndrome.

Then again now since Mania and Delusion are in the picture this calls again for a sub-classification.

Mania means elevated energy levels beyond the normal with heightened senses.

Then during a Manic episode one can display the following:


  • Euphoria.
  • Inflated self-esteem.
  • Poor judgment.
  • Rapid speech.
  • Racing thoughts.
  • Aggressive behavior.
  • Agitation or irritation.
  • Increased physical activity.

Delusion per se in the real sense is seldom seen in Manic episodes.


So if Devotee Syndrome also has clinical features of Delusion then the correct classification of Devotee Syndrome would be:

1)Devotee Syndrome Type 1--with Mania

2)Devotee Syndrome Type 2---with Delusion



Now coming to the signs and symptoms of Devotee Syndrome as enumerated by TKS ji..my opinion is in Blue letters:

1)Chanting large number of verses like even Vishnu Sahasranamam etc without knowing the profound meaning of even a single name. In fact chanting is often done in a blah blah manner (with possibly incorrect pronunciation, incorrect intonation, not know the meaning and not having the right Bhava arising out of understanding). Many priests tend fall into this category

Chanting without understanding is done even in pre-school.When we learned ABC we did not know what A or B or C meant..we just went on repeating it from A to Z and we learned to read eventually.

So likewise..initially a person might repeat a mantra or Saharasnamam without knowing the meaning but as he progressed his effort will transform into a revelation.

Sharddhvan Labhate Jnanam.

Diagnosis: Learning process and methodology.No delusion or mania.




2)Being in love with a deity or image in a temple.

Love is a normal human emotions having attachment as its substratum. Many of us are in love with our lovers,spouses,love our kids,love our dogs/cats, car etc..adore movie star too.
Love can also extend for God and a deity or temple.
It still falls in a normal range of emotions

Diagnosis:No delusion or mania here.


3)- Doing Pada Puja for a person



Pada Pooja is just an act of hygiene. In ancient days people did not wear foot-wear and the roads were either dusty or muddy..so when a guest or elder person comes home its only normal to clean his feet as a mark of respect.

Diagnosis: Normal..no signs and symptoms of Delusion or Mania.



4)- Worshipping a human person believing in his miracles (Acharya Upasana in Chapter 13 in B.Gita has an entirely a different meaning)

This again is subject to debate becos they are humans who can perform acts like curing diseases and out of gratitude people worship them.

But they are also some who play mind games and are frauds and manage to trick others into believing them.

Diagnosis: Blind Faith.
No mania or delusion.



5)- Competing by creating rituals that essentially says ' Mine or My so and so is bigger than your so and so' . For example one person says he wants to conduct a campaign to light 1000 lamps. Another ups the number and goes for 1 lakh lamps. I heard there was an event to light 1 crore lamps wasting enormous resources.

The mine is bigger than yours starts in childhood and carries on in locker room too.

This is mostly becos of pride and the need to show off that more or bigger is better and many parties who have economical reasons might encourage such waste of resources.

Diagnosis :Pride/Economical interests.


No mania or delusion.




6)- All kinds of superstitious activities and negotiation activities with 'God'

This is due to lack of understanding and lack faith in one's own self.

Diagnosis: Lack of inner strength.

No mania or delusion.



Final conclusion : A diagnosis of Delusion or Mania could not be established in Devotee Syndrome.
 
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Posts # 44 and 45 from tks make good sense to me, though I am not a specialist to discuss whether the name given by him (tks) to the condition viz., Delusional Devotee Mania or Syndrome, is appropriate or not. "Modern Bhakti Syndrome"may be a better-fitting description of the malaise that seems to be spreading fast among hindus, especially, nowadays.

One aspect of this bhakti syndrome is a "delusion of past grandeur".

I am thankful to Shri tks for the good words he has for me.
 
Delusion and Mania are symptoms of a disorder or syndrome.

So the Nomenclature here does not seem very accurate.

Delusion Devotee Mania/Syndrome technically does not jive.

It would be more accurate to call it Devotee Syndrome.

Then again now since Mania and Delusion are in the picture this calls again for a sub-classification.

Mania means elevated energy levels beyond the normal with heightened senses.

Then during a Manic episode one can display the following:


  • Euphoria.
  • Inflated self-esteem.
  • Poor judgment.
  • Rapid speech.
  • Racing thoughts.
  • Aggressive behavior.
  • Agitation or irritation.
  • Increased physical activity.

Delusion per se in the real sense is seldom seen in Manic episodes.
So if Devotee Syndrome also has clinical features of Delusion then the correct classification of Devotee Syndrome would be:
1)Devotee Syndrome Type 1--with Mania
2)Devotee Syndrome Type 2---with Delusion
Now coming to the signs and symptoms of Devotee Syndrome as enumerated by TKS ji..my opinion is in Blue letters:
1)Chanting large number of verses like even Vishnu Sahasranamam etc without knowing the profound meaning of even a single name. In fact chanting is often done in a blah blah manner (with possibly incorrect pronunciation, incorrect intonation, not know the meaning and not having the right Bhava arising out of understanding). Many priests tend fall into this category
Chanting without understanding is done even in pre-school.When we learned ABC we did not know what A or B or C meant..we just went on repeating it from A to Z and we learned to read eventually.
So likewise..initially a person might repeat a mantra or Saharasnamam without knowing the meaning but as he progressed his effort will transform into a revelation.
Sharddhvan Labhate Jnanam.
Diagnosis: Learning process and methodology.No delusion or mania.
2)Being in love with a deity or image in a temple.
Love is a normal human emotions having attachment as its substratum. Many of us are in love with our lovers,spouses,love our kids,love our dogs/cats, car etc..adore movie star too.
Love can also extend for God and a deity or temple.
It still falls in a normal range of emotions
Diagnosis:No delusion or mania here.
3)- Doing Pada Puja for a person
Pada Pooja is just an act of hygiene. In ancient days people did not wear foot-wear and the roads were either dusty or muddy..so when a guest or elder person comes home its only normal to clean his feet as a mark of respect.
Diagnosis: Normal..no signs and symptoms of Delusion or Mania.
4)- Worshipping a human person believing in his miracles (Acharya Upasana in Chapter 13 in B.Gita has an entirely a different meaning)
This again is subject to debate becos they are humans who can perform acts like curing diseases and out of gratitude people worship them.
But they are also some who play mind games and are frauds and manage to trick others into believing them.
Diagnosis: Blind Faith.
No mania or delusion.
5)- Competing by creating rituals that essentially says ' Mine or My so and so is bigger than your so and so' . For example one person says he wants to conduct a campaign to light 1000 lamps. Another ups the number and goes for 1 lakh lamps. I heard there was an event to light 1 crore lamps wasting enormous resources.
The mine is bigger than yours starts in childhood and carries on in locker room too.
This is mostly becos of pride and the need to show off that more or bigger is better and many parties who have economical reasons might encourage such waste of resources.
Diagnosis :Pride/Economical interests.

No mania or delusion.
6)- All kinds of superstitious activities and negotiation activities with 'God'
This is due to lack of understanding and lack faith in one's own self.
Diagnosis: Lack of inner strength.
No mania or delusion.
Final conclusion : A diagnosis of Delusion or Mania could not be established in Devotee Syndrome.

the matter went and landed on the table of the Medical Council ultimately. After studying the material presented and after each member of the council examining the patient the following conclusions were recorded for appropriate action:

1. the diagnosis done at the beginning is absolutely poor in quality. The doctor who did it may be asked to appear before the council. If his certificates were found to be genuine the licence given to the college which taught and trained him may be cancelled and the Doctor advised to join a fresh course and get a fresh credential for practicing. At present he is a risk to the society at large.

2. the referral level Doctor who did the differential diagnosis has done a good job. We recommend that she be given an appropriate recognition certificate.

3. The patient may follow the advice of the referral level doctor may go to his favorite temple/church/dargah and thank God that he has such good doctors too in the world.

LOL.
 
Last edited:
Delusion and Mania are symptoms of a disorder or syndrome.

3)- Doing Pada Puja for a person


Pada Pooja is just an act of hygiene. In ancient days people did not wear foot-wear and the roads were either dusty or muddy..so when a guest or elder person comes home its only normal to clean his feet as a mark of respect.

Diagnosis: Normal..no signs and symptoms of Delusion or Mania.

Madam,

Pada Pooja is being continued till date, as far as Sankar Mutts are concerned. How will you attribute this? What is the name for it in your medical terminology?
 
Delusion and Mania are symptoms of a disorder or syndrome.

So the Nomenclature here does not seem very accurate.

Delusion Devotee Mania/Syndrome technically does not jive.

It would be more accurate to call it Devotee Syndrome.

Then again now since Mania and Delusion are in the picture this calls again for a sub-classification.

Mania means elevated energy levels beyond the normal with heightened senses.

Then during a Manic episode one can display the following:


  • Euphoria.
  • Inflated self-esteem.
  • Poor judgment.
  • Rapid speech.
  • Racing thoughts.
  • Aggressive behavior.
  • Agitation or irritation.
  • Increased physical activity.

Delusion per se in the real sense is seldom seen in Manic episodes.


So if Devotee Syndrome also has clinical features of Delusion then the correct classification of Devotee Syndrome would be:

1)Devotee Syndrome Type 1--with Mania

2)Devotee Syndrome Type 2---with Delusion



Now coming to the signs and symptoms of Devotee Syndrome as enumerated by TKS ji..my opinion is in Blue letters:

1)Chanting large number of verses like even Vishnu Sahasranamam etc without knowing the profound meaning of even a single name. In fact chanting is often done in a blah blah manner (with possibly incorrect pronunciation, incorrect intonation, not know the meaning and not having the right Bhava arising out of understanding). Many priests tend fall into this category

Chanting without understanding is done even in pre-school.When we learned ABC we did not know what A or B or C meant..we just went on repeating it from A to Z and we learned to read eventually.

So likewise..initially a person might repeat a mantra or Saharasnamam without knowing the meaning but as he progressed his effort will transform into a revelation.

Sharddhvan Labhate Jnanam.

Diagnosis: Learning process and methodology.No delusion or mania.




2)Being in love with a deity or image in a temple.

Love is a normal human emotions having attachment as its substratum. Many of us are in love with our lovers,spouses,love our kids,love our dogs/cats, car etc..adore movie star too.
Love can also extend for God and a deity or temple.
It still falls in a normal range of emotions

Diagnosis:No delusion or mania here.


3)- Doing Pada Puja for a person



Pada Pooja is just an act of hygiene. In ancient days people did not wear foot-wear and the roads were either dusty or muddy..so when a guest or elder person comes home its only normal to clean his feet as a mark of respect.

Diagnosis: Normal..no signs and symptoms of Delusion or Mania.



4)- Worshipping a human person believing in his miracles (Acharya Upasana in Chapter 13 in B.Gita has an entirely a different meaning)

This again is subject to debate becos they are humans who can perform acts like curing diseases and out of gratitude people worship them.

But they are also some who play mind games and are frauds and manage to trick others into believing them.

Diagnosis: Blind Faith.
No mania or delusion.



5)- Competing by creating rituals that essentially says ' Mine or My so and so is bigger than your so and so' . For example one person says he wants to conduct a campaign to light 1000 lamps. Another ups the number and goes for 1 lakh lamps. I heard there was an event to light 1 crore lamps wasting enormous resources.

The mine is bigger than yours starts in childhood and carries on in locker room too.

This is mostly becos of pride and the need to show off that more or bigger is better and many parties who have economical reasons might encourage such waste of resources.

Diagnosis :Pride/Economical interests.


No mania or delusion.




6)- All kinds of superstitious activities and negotiation activities with 'God'

This is due to lack of understanding and lack faith in one's own self.

Diagnosis: Lack of inner strength.

No mania or delusion.



Final conclusion : A diagnosis of Delusion or Mania could not be established in Devotee Syndrome.

Dear Renuka Madam

I find issues of logic in your post.

** If I Google the word 'Delusion' I get a Wikipedia definition that is not always linked to a clinical state

"A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary"

The word is used in non-clinical sense even in quotes like this one (from same Google search)

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Carl Sagan"

Jumping to conclusion that it is all clinical only definition does not make sense to me.
In the process you may have missed the big picture which is nicely stated in Mr Sangom's post.

** To show distinct events as distinct again does not need any special thinking which is what your message is about. Common message in all these items is: These are not examples of devotion to God even in your analysis though people engaged in these practices may have strong belief otherwise.

** There are issues in your assumptions - some examples to make the point:
In your item 1, chanting without understanding is being referred to for adults (e.g., priests) who do blah blah everyday for decades without ever understanding the meaning. Is that really devotion? I am not sure. I do not know our scriptures but I can resort to common sense for my statement here.

In your item 4, you may know God-men curing diseases - I don't. If someone is sick I will not send them to a God-men but ask them to see a good medical doctor.

In other words you made an assumption (Delusion mean clinical only) and proved it wrong.

You have a fan cheering with you but I think for different reasons.
 
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