Theory of Aryan Invasion and Interpretting Scriptures

[happyhindu]

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@ Sow. Happyhindu

"Where did you get that "fertile land" idea from? Please provide references where the boundries of Aryavarta have changed in history as per course of river?"

"Abode of the Aryas" was a term clearly put to make it look like the (later) abode of a ficticious "aryan race" which was part of the European 19th and 20th century propaganda. All the references about the territorial extents of aryavarta are clear indication of the Himalayan regions and the Indo-Gangetic plane which speak about the rivers of the regions.

Check a sanskrit dictionary, the word "arya" :Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit

Nowhere is it a tribe name - clearly it fits the second meaning "favourable" which is because of the fertility of the region. Note none of the words have no meaning refering to a tribe from any place or a fire-cult because such an idea (which you, DMK, DK try to propogate) is a ficticious one degined to the attack the brahmins.

Regards,
Vivek.

If "arya" means "favourable", does that automatically mean "aryavarta" is "fertile land"? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Is your conclusion derived from some grammatical elucidation? And where did the boundries of aryavarta change as per course of any river?

 

[MG Hariharan]

That is what I meant as sweeping. You are assuming the ancient people were not having technical knowledge. But more and more you go into works like Ramayana you will find they were very knowledgeable. Especially while using words we can misunderstand. Asimov has written 5 chapters how ancient people used Pritvi Ap vayur tejas akasam as constituting all materials We find they just meant Solids, liquids, Gas, Energy, and Space. Even today that is all we know as constituents. More can be said like this. See the political climate we are having today. 2500 years exactly the situation has been predicted by Plato as to how democracy will fare. Sometimes you think he has visited India in time machine and saw what is happening. He has written about modern fads such as going to GYM etc. can you believe it. Visit my Blog for more details

 

[Vivek_V]

@ Sow. Happyhindu

"If "arya" means "favourable", does that automatically mean "aryavarta" is "fertile land"? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Is your conclusion derived from some grammatical elucidation? And where did the boundries of aryavarta change as per course of any river?"

That is the only explaination which actually fits given that an aryan clan or tribe is actually unknown. Did you even see the link I provided? You yourself can search and see the boundaries of Aryavarta changing. Even though this has often been translated as "abode of the aryas" which actually makes no sense given that there was never any arya clan or tribe.

From wiki: "The Vasistha Dharma Sutra I.8-9 and 12-13 locates Āryāvarta to the east of the disappearance of the Sarasvati in the desert, to the west of Kalakavana, to the north of the mountains of Pariyatra and Vindhya and to the south of the Himalaya."

Note how its change has been written with respect to the disappearing river and clearly comes to describe the region of the Indo-Gangetic plain.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Vivek_V]

@Sri MG Hariharan - I didn't make a sweeping statement, was speaking ON BASIS of what is agreed upon by present academics

"That is what I meant as sweeping. You are assuming the ancient people were not having technical knowledge. But more and more you go into works like Ramayana you will find they were very knowledgeable. "

Did you read my post actually? Let me requote what I said: "I meant for an early people in what is today thought by academics to have been a pastoral lifestyle. " So, I was saying here that academicians and studies that are widely accepted regard the veda composers as having lead a pastoral life - then I go forward to question how such an absurdity as Agni (associated with fire) being born of water would have been written? (as per their translation, their assumptions of life then). Thus I go to reason the meaning is not so direct. Do you understand this type of argument method?

You seem to be hinting on what I have myself read about - like the Ancient Astronaut Theory (AAT). I don't mention it because a debate should have a common (agreeing) starting point. Also, the point was not about AAT or technology, it was about apparent absurdity of the verse in for a the type of society academics widely agrees the vedic people lived in - it is through which I say it certainly is not so direct.

So I didn't make any sweeping generalization, I am very well aware of the strangest references in our texts - like the Mahabharata which mentions that 1 billion+ people (ie. 1,660,020,000) died in the war. Obviously no conventional war could have done this in 18 days. Assuming this text is true and valid, we will have have strange conclusions, but still not impossible ones.

We can argue for or against the idea of a technological past, but since revealed archeological data concerning it is not supportive and there are many controversial ideas, its best not to take the possibility of a technological past as a basis (starting point) from an argument.

Also, generally the proponents of the AAT or any scenario of a technological past are seen as dwelling in their own fantasy of things or trying to push an agenda of supremacy too. I can't deny that some things like this above reference in MhBh. are strange but most people would dismiss such accounts as fabricated. So its best to keep an open mind about what could have been unless we come across something that strongly tells us something. For now, AAT or ideas of a technological past are not agreed upon as fact, so its best to not mention anything as its starting point.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[MG Hariharan]

Let us park the fire and Water question. The idea of Aryan attack itself is unproven. Questioning the Mahabharata war on the basis of time scale and also no of persons dead etc. are difficult and no conclusion can be arrived at. Though I don’t want to quote it ( As I don’t believe it) As it is written by an artist the facts may be tampered with. See our media (They exaggerate everyting for Breaking news. Facts are of least interest). But again I am not saying the facts are wrong but may be exaggerated. That is neither here or there. We don’t have any proof either way. So let us not say Nos were exaggerated without proof, just as the numbers may seem to us to be preposterous today.

 

[KRS]

Folks,

I just read this thread in it's entirety to understand what was going on here.

Let me first apologize to Srimathi Happy Hindu Ji on post #124 made by Sri ShivKC Ji. If I were active that post would have been deleted immediately and the following discussions about identity would not have risen. It is too late now and so I am letting these posts remain.

Let me broadly make a point here, because Sri ShivKC often brought it up here. Without NBs, you do not have Bs. Bs were given all their dharma not just to take care of themselves but all other NBs too in spiritual matters, especially those we call Shudras. So, it is not correct to divide on caste basis here as we are discussing our culture, in which NBs hold a special place.

I commented once that Srimathi HH Ji is more than a Brahmin than MANY of us. I still hold this view - she is amazing in her depth of knowledge of our religion. Unless we start to appreciate knowledge irrespective of where it comes from, we will remain ignorant. But this does not mean we need to accept what is said. Feel free to discuss and based on the merits of your scholarship and depth of knowledge, the readers of this Forum, who are all wise, will make up their minds accordingly, even if the discussions reach at an impasse.

As for as the dialog between Sri Vivek Ji and Srimathi HH Ji, while heated, almost bordering on needing moderation, I am happy to say, it never did.

Let us continue, if folks want to continue here. However, the issue of identity, NB versus B, threesomes etc. are closed for any further discussion. If some one tries to post anything connected with these, their posts will be removed and warnings will be issued

Regards,
KRS