Theory of Karma

[saidevo]

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Science providing ways to solve the abject poverty of the multitude? In addition to the excellent links provided by Govinda, here is a link as to how science is helpless when the most visible and socially active group of its practitioners create abject poverty by looting their clients:
Dr.Malpani's Blog: How Indian Doctors Loot Patients.

At least with a religious practitioner, the 'client' has a choice: to follow or ignore his advice. Here, the poor client is forced to yield to the monstrous greed of the money makers under the umbrella of science.

So, the solution can only be based on the approach that lessens greed and desire beyond the basic necessities of life, which obviously, can never be provided by science.

 

[Yamaka]

Science providing ways to solve the abject poverty of the multitude? In addition to the excellent links provided by Govinda, here is a link as to how science is helpless when the most visible and socially active group of its practitioners create abject poverty by looting their clients:
Dr.Malpani's Blog: How Indian Doctors Loot Patients.

At least with a religious practitioner, the 'client' has a choice: to follow or ignore his advice. Here, the poor client is forced to yield to the monstrous greed of the money makers under the umbrella of science.

So, the solution can only be based on the approach that lessens greed and desire beyond the basic necessities of life, which obviously, can never be provided by science.

Dear Saidevo:

1. Did you read this?

"Sadly, there is a grain of truth in this, but fortunately, most doctors are NOT like this !" Dr. Malpani commented.

2. Do you know as to how many such doctors and other affluent people are "religious" people ?

I bet very many.. because these unscrupulous "religious" people have the following consoling argument:

"Well.. we know we are bad people.. but, since every morning and evening we do poojas, bhajans and prayers to God Almighty, all the SINS vanish from our body and mind... we are rejuvenated.. and we proceed to repeat the same thing again tomorrow!

So, where's the problem?"

So, dear Saidevo, the problem is NOT with Science & Technology, it's with the people of FAITH.. Lol.

 

[happyhindu]

namaste smt.HappyHindu.

Many thanks for the enlightening points in your posts #584 and #599. This is the first time I came across terms like 'absolute brahman, nirguNa brahman and conditioned brahman', in that order. Please clarify these points about them:

Thankyou sir. These are the concepts of Adi Shankara. It is all very clearly and explicitely explained in the book "Brahmasutra Bhasya of Shankaracharya", Translated by Swami Gambhirananada, RK Mutt. This book is available at RK Mutt, Mylapore, near Kapaleeshwar Koil. Am sure you will like reading through the book very much.

01. Is this the order from the top? 'absolute, nirguNa, conditioned' brahman?

Yes, that's right.

02. Is 'saguNa brahman' the same as the 'conditioned brahman'? Where does the praNava/shabda/nAda brahman fit in this hieararchy?

Yes it is Saguna and the Samadhi is called Savikalpa Samadhi, where the sadhaka experiences bliss.

Shankara explains the aphorism Kampanat (vibration) in his bhasya. But not sufficiently enough imo . So am not able to make out much. This 'vibration concept' of advaita, could be similar to the nada-brahman of sound-vibrations.

The Nada brahman concept is found in the yoga-upanishads. It deals with kundalini concepts also. Here is the link to download the texts.

I suspect the nada-brahman concept is from the Siddha or Kapalika tradition. Personally, i find the Siddha tradition uses the Pranava and subtle differentiation of sounds a lot more than advaitins. For that matter i don't know if advaitins are into seeking moksha these days.

03. So, the flow as you say is: the yogi experiences absolute bliss and peace when he is merged with the 'conditioned brahman'; this is lost and all awareness blanks out as he progresses to the next stage 'nirguNa brahman'; and finally, his soul merges with 'absolute brahman', becomes omniscient and gets endowed with all powers except the power of creation.

Yes, that's what Shankara explains in his brahmasutra-bhasya.

Would this mean that a jIvan-mukta in nirvikalpa samAdhi at all times, like BhagavAn RamaNa maharShi for example, was merged only with the 'conditioned brahman' during his lifetime?

Am hazarding a guess based on His life experiences described so far. I feel He was frequently going into nirguna blank-state during his life-time. But to communicate, and interact with people, he was coming down to the state of savikalpa. Upon His death/samadhi, i feel He must have merged into the absolute-brahman.

Would this also mean that the Buddhist concept of shUnyata on nirvANa is only the middle stage and that the Buddhist yogi is still to attain the state of 'absolute brahman' to become omniscient?

I do think of this often, but i really do not know.

04. Puranas speak of VishvAmitra maharShi creating a svarga--heavens/universe, for the king Trishanku. How was this possible when even the most accomplished soul in liberation is not endowed with the powers of creation?

Visvamitra incident contradicts advaita. Shankara makes it clear liberated souls do not get the powers to create or run the universe.

Am so sorry Saidevo ji, but i do not have faith in puranas, unless some descriptions can be validated with supporting evidences from historical and other sources.

Maybe such a case (of trishanku) is actually a metaphor. Conveying something else thru such descriptions.

Contd..

 

[happyhindu]

Contd from post 628..

05. You said eminently in post #599:
IMO this point is also misused because some link this to caste. IMO every soul's intrinsic desire is moksham whether it is consciously aware of that or not. And IMO every soul is endowed with the ability to merge into brahman.

I totally agree with you that mokSha--liberation, is the legacy of every soul, which has an intrinsic desire towards it, although the soul itself may not know it until after many cycles of reincarnation.

In the light of this assertion, what do you think about shrI Sangom's statement in post #600, wherein he perceives a link between karma and caste?

Thank you once again, for your clarifications.

Before commenting on Sangom sir's post, let me tell my story. As a teenager i was very involved in advaita. I did things like other teenagers (love, much later dating, etc). But deep inside kept going back to advaita.

At 18, i read the brahmasutra bhasya of Shankara for the first time. It never occured to me that the 'shudra' points in it applied to me. My gurus never mentioned caste or gender as a barrier. So i had no idea.

Some years back, i got mired with all this caste issues, how castes were formed, how varnas came around, etc. At first it was all like a hobby. But later, well....Anyways, about a couple of years back, i read the brahmasutra bhasya of Shankara again.

I kept re-reading the pseudo-shudras paragraphs repeteadly (from shugasya to smritayshcha). The bhasya used an example of an (atharva) Shaunaka king Chitraratha of the line of Kapi mentioning him as a kshatriya and then declaring that a shudra is prohibitted, mainly based on the smrithis.

It felt sick to think that someone as exalted as Adi Shankara used smrithis as references / pramans to establish his point. And that too points like "filling a shudra's ears with lead and lac" (gautama dharmasutra), a shudra is like a burial ground or walking crematorium (vashista dharmasutra), a shudra's 'tongue reciting vedas is to be chopped off and body cut to pieces if he commits vedas to memory" (Gautama dharmasutra).

Since all philosophies must use vedas and/or vedanta as the pramana, it made sense that a shudra prohibitted from vedas, is just as well prohibitted from shankara's advaita.

I said to myself, shankara's advaita is a nice philosophy, but it is meant only for dvijas (or brahmins in the present times)....The excuse given by certain advaitins is "varna does not apply to the soul, it applies only for body'...If only they could prove how.....

I kept thinking, this is a saint who saw non-duality in the astral world, but differentiated between humans in the mortal world. What a contrast. Anyways, was broken to say the least. Later thot to myself, what purpose does his philosophy serve, what for do i need his philosophy when there is moksha in siddha and other traditions…

Much later, i felt maybe there is a political angle to it. I thot maybe Shankara could not have established 4 mutts without the political patronage, and acceptance from the rulers of the respective regions. So may be a political angle also existed to it, in the form of support to smrithis, although Shankara's veda pramana for the shudra-prohibition, mentioned in that book, is one saying from yajur taittriya.

I thot what applied in Shankara's time need not apply now. But anyways, my opinions are of no use. How the orthodoxy views this issue, is what matters socially...but lets leave that.

I sincerely do not know how any man gets the right to prohibit any other man from seeking knowledge of any form. Whoever does this, is in my view, earning himself a massive sin.

Wonder how can any 'religious' text terrorise a shudra into following his occupation (manusmrithi). Its a bigger wonder that some people are so smug, that i come across comments in blogs to the effect that ‘it is your karma to be a shudra and my karma to be a brahmin”.

Sangom sir's post 600 does not seem to perceive any link between caste and karma. Instead he seems to have brought out the misuse of karma to aid caste-system (i will say 'varna-system' and 'gradation system of castes'). IMO knowledge is every human's birth-right, and therefore i agree with him.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

So, you switched from solving poverty into crazy researches. Talk to rural people, they need only food, not your cure for diseases. The body is self-immune and self-repairing, if the cleanest food, air and water are fed. Why are we battling for cure, when we can adventure for the preventions?

Am doing a project on a mosquito-borne disease that affects and kills millions. Please do not claim senseless things like people do not want cure for diseases. Maybe you are a rare breed who does not take medicines when you get sick.

Diseases like leprory, cancer, etc have existed since ages, long before the advent of the modern world. We inherited those diseases. Agreed, the exposure to chemicals and modern-day stress may trigger off the onset very early on. But claiming we do not require cure is silly.

Your claim that the body is self-repairing is true only to an extent. Your body cannot repair itself from malaria, dengue, leprosy, certain kinds of cancer, etc.

True, we need a greener environment...that does not mean we don't require cure for diseases. Next time you are sick, please do not pop a pill. Do not vaccinate your kids, take them to the mountains and let them live a nice green clean life there. And do not worry if mosquitoes bite you or them...

 

[renuka]

Dear Yamaka,

You wrote :

So, dear Saidevo, the problem is NOT with Science & Technology, it's with the people of FAITH.. Lol.

You know scientists are a weird lot..just becos they cant "see" something they dismiss it as false/wrong etc.
Just becos other scientists could not see what he saw he was ridiculed..but he is a Nobel Laureate now.

Yamaka dear,Yahan kal kya ho kisne jaana...read on..

An Israeli scientist says he endured years of ridicule for the discovery which has now won him the Nobel Prize for Chemistry.
Thirty years ago Daniel Shechtman discovered quasicrystals - a new form of crystal that had a structure many scientists said at the time was impossible.
For years his peers rejected and ridiculed the findings, with the head of his laboratory handing him a textbook in crystallography and suggesting he read it.
At one point Professor Shechtman was even branded a disgrace and asked to leave his research group at the US National Institute of Standards and Technology.
But since then the Professor's quasicrystals have helped change the way chemists conceive of solid matter.
His singular discovery has now won him the Nobel Prize for Chemistry.
"His battle eventually forced scientists to reconsider their conception of the very nature of matter," the Nobel jury said.
Quasicrystals, described by the Nobel jury as "a remarkable mosaic of atoms", are patterns that are highly ordered and symmetrical but which do not repeat themselves.
To the untrained eye, they look like abstract Islamic art.
Quasicrystals have been found in the lab and some have been discovered to occur naturally in minerals.
Their closely packed structure help them strengthen materials, with potential outlets in consumer products such as frying pans and machines such as diesel engines, which experience high heat and mechanical stress.
PHOTO: Daniel Shechtman's quasicrystals discovery was extremely controversial.(AFP: Israel Institute of Technology)
Professor Shechtman's research "has fundamentally altered how chemists conceive of solid matter," the jury said.
His discovery was "extremely controversial," the Nobel committee said, noting that the atoms were "arranged in a manner that was contrary to the laws of nature".
The pattern was "considered just as impossible as creating a football using only six-cornered polygons, when a sphere needs both five and six-cornered polygons".
Professor Shechtman, born in 1941, is currently a professor at Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa, where he holds the Philip Tobias Chair.
He will receive the 10 million Swedish kronor ($1.5 million) award at a formal ceremony in Stockholm on December 10, the anniversary of the death of prize creator Alfred Nobel.
Professor Shechtman is the 10th Israeli to win a Nobel Prize and the fourth to win the Chemistry prize.
Israel's prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Professor has made every Israeli happy and every Jew in the world proud.

 

[sarang]

Science cannot eradicate poverty. Religion cannot solve poverty. Spiritualism cannot eradicate poverty. All are mutually exclusive but can co-exist. We need good rulers, good people, able-ethical administrators and self help to ensure that no one goes hungry and gets his basic needs - roti,kapda, makan.

This year millions of tons of food grains were rotting in the godowns because of improper storage (covered sheds of FCI were rented out as godowns for private parties and grains were stored in the open without cover) and the agriculture minister has gone on record with the statement that food cannot be given free to the needy. Even the SC's admonition has not induced the minister to change his stand. And our neo-mythical-monkey MMS has kept all organs covered, and as usual, kept quiet.

Science providing ways to solve the abject poverty of the multitude? In addition to the excellent links provided by Govinda, here is a link as to how science is helpless when the most visible and socially active group of its practitioners create abject poverty by looting their clients:
Dr.Malpani's Blog: How Indian Doctors Loot Patients.

At least with a religious practitioner, the 'client' has a choice: to follow or ignore his advice. Here, the poor client is forced to yield to the monstrous greed of the money makers under the umbrella of science.

So, the solution can only be based on the approach that lessens greed and desire beyond the basic necessities of life, which obviously, can never be provided by science.

 

[Yamaka]

"And our neo-mythical-monkey MMS has kept all organs covered, and as usual, kept quiet." post 632

Is this necessary? To call and describe Dr. MMS like this?

Is this as per the practices of "Sanatana Dharma"?

Very sad.

 

[Yamaka]

"You know scientists are a weird lot..just becos they cant "see" something they dismiss it as false/wrong etc.
Just becos other scientists could not see what he saw he was ridiculed..but he is a Nobel Laureate now"- post 631

Hi Renuka:

I agree most Scientists are very weird personalities, including me.. When we review papers for publication, we never accept the data presented AS IS; we doubt the authors (who themselves are Scientists, many we may know personally) and riddle them with hundred questions...

That's the nature of the beast... When Stanley Prussner got the Nobel Prize for his discoveries of Prions, similar talk was around that no one believed a word of what he said about prions 20 years ago..

I had the chance of eating lunch with Dr. Prussner "and pick his brain" for a while... he was telling me how skeptical the whole world was when he started his research on prions etc. etc.

Leaving that aside,

I believe the presence and utility of x-rays; and believe the existence of virus and bacteria none of which I can see "with my naked eye".

That's not the reason why and how I became an Atheist...

For me, the idea of a Super-Natural power (called Ishwara/Jesus/Allah/??? ) controlling everything in this Universe is UNTHINKABLE, period. I believe the power of Nature, as I am a Naturalist too.

And, I totally reject Janma Poorva Karma because it is just IMPOSSIBLE for an Agency to keep track of what an individual does over several generations AND punish/reward his/her life according to that JP KARMA.

For me there is NO Rebirth and Reincarnation of my soul... When I die, my soul/consciousness, "I-ness" and the like disappear immediately w/o any trace, period. My body is burnt or buried 6 ft underground..I am gone for ever.

In other words, simple REASONING and RATIONAL analysis what pushed me to be an Atheist!

Peace.

ps. I gather you are a Traditionalist... you are quite different from me... I am NOT a TRADITIONALIST..

 

[Govinda]

Am doing a project on a mosquito-borne disease that affects and kills millions. Please do not claim senseless things like people do not want cure for diseases. Maybe you are a rare breed who does not take medicines when you get sick.

Seems like you often ommit the IF part of the statement "We dont need any cure IF clean resources of food, water, air, environment..etc are available" . Plus you escaped the intent of my whole post/point. We messed up the whole environment and ended up with all hunger, diseases etc. In such chaos, we also lost our wisdom.

There are 900 millions 2011 World Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistics by World Hunger Education Service hungry and dying from hunger. All these when not taken care, will become the cases for Cancer or other diseases (HIV/leprosy). Shouldn't we fix the first cause! So, you want to cure their disease not their hunger/environment?

Only 50 million have these major diseases. The root causes of all diseases like HIV, leprosy are un-hygiene/un-ethical practices. Plus, the major risk factors for cancer are Tobacco, alcohol and Poor diet.  Plus, obviously the compromise of the immune system, which stems from the lack of understanding/availability of Nutrition/balanced food.  Most of them are not contagious diseases, just affect only the direct victims. These needed the cure PLUS Nutritious food. So, poor diet/unclean water/air are always risk factors.

The diseases caused by mosquitoes are solely because India completely disregarded the sewage/disposal/recycling systems. Our corrupt PWDs don't have the strategy to fix its root cause by providing cleaner environment. Your mosquito department didnot educate the public on prevention. India's sanitation crisis - YouTube . Work on sanitation that prevents water-borne/air-borne diseases. Our govt. celebrates commonwealth (for their pockets), but wont take care of the poor. Authorities clear out Delhi's poor - YouTube

Further researches/advancements in the medical field is going to help only the few exceptions for those already not available. Cure those diseases with already available medicine . But work massively on fixing the root problems/causes, is my viewpoint. Else, govt/authorities/even public take technological/scientific advancements as EXCUSE for their lack of 'SELF' responsibilities.

<div>

Next time you are sick, please do not pop a pill. Do not vaccinate your kids, take them to the mountains and let them live a nice green clean life there. And do not worry if mosquitoes bite you or them...

My maternal relatives never ever taken any medicines or vaccines and lived for avg. 65 years healthily. Now we have become less immune. 30 years ago, we had only polio vaccine. Now, we give umpteen vaccines for infants. We needed vaccines because we live in already messed up environment and in a democracy that dont aim to fix causes.

But for other reasons of sickness, our doctors recommend only nutritious food like organic whole grains, anti-oxidant, veggies and less fruits/plenty of water/less sugar-salt-white flour, 20 min yoga/walk after every meal. My doctor simply avoided x-rays, scans etc, and prescribed inhalers through just breathing evaluation. I applaud them.

In US, they take care of waste-disposal/sewage/sanitation/water-treatment etc, hence they dont have mosquitoes. We need the same attitude/pro-active effort in India. We need to work on fixing the shortfalls in our basic needs in a massive way and science should stop researching for few exceptions.

 

[Yamaka]

"Religion cannot solve poverty. Spiritualism cannot eradicate poverty." - post 632.

What happened to the prayers of those 800 million poor devout Hindus, who thought their prayers would reach Ishwara, and the HOPE that HE will solve all their sufferings...?

They all said "Ishwara, You created us this poor in this world... won't you give us enough food and shelter for our shivering skeletal frames?"

Hear them say, "Muruga! Bhahavanae! Why have you forgotten us? What did we do wrong?... we have been thinking of you all day... all our life....why don't you give us a decent living?

Is it too much to ask you The Almighty and All Knowing... the Most Merciful Bhaghavanae?"

What say you?

ps. Yamaka has given his Ten Commandments in post 617 in this Thread to solve the problems of the poor. They need to follow it, to succeed and to seek happiness! Lol

 

[Nara]

....I had the chance of eating lunch with Dr. Prussner "and pick his brain" for a while... he was telling me how skeptical the whole world was when he started his research on prions etc. etc. ..

Y, is this not a testament to science?

As Saidevo observed elsewhere, the religious Acharyas feel they can't change anything, not a single syllable. They are bound by tradition. Whatever is handed down must be implicitly believed on faith, questioning its validity is blasphemous.

On the contrary, nobody is an Oracle in science. When Dan Shechtman discovered something that went against conventional wisdom it was viewed with skepticism at first. When the data he presented was unimpeachable and the handed down conventional wisdom was shown to be false, nobody hesitated to ditch the paradigm of old masters in favor of the one proposed by the new upstart.

This is why science will always come out on top.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

scienticts especially the atheistic ones,are trained in inference.logically they shud believe in a supernatural power which manifests in myriad forms to let the believers of god enthralled for generations to come.scientists know,that they never witnessed their own creation but are alive and kicking giving superb inventions and discoveries,but yet are unable to infer that it took two other peoples resources to create them.its so rudimentary and elementary level of awareness that some scienticts fail to observe and understand,the cause and effect.maybe its their karma not to understand at a particular point of time in life,who knows maybe a eureka moment might just happen even for atheistic scienticsts,at least i am hopeful and optimistic.

 

[prasad1]

Everyone devices a set of values to live by. They are generally controlled by the universe, Time, state, and immediate neighborhood.
Some of us have a desire for knowledge to things unexplained, others "know" everything.

You behave for your survival.
In my POV science and my Brahman are not at odd. In science it is only research there is no search. To me there is nothing outside of Brahman. That Brahman is non judgmental, all pervading, always present entity. So I do not have the guilt that others have to prove/disprove the existence of Brahman. I believe that the journey of life is your personal journey, no two individual can have similar experience.