tirupati

[avv_calib1]

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Dear Members,

I feel the TTD wants to make huge money with huge crowd gathering to visit Thirumala.All these things only for mony only.If the crowed is more they can do more business.

V.Rajagopal-Coimbatore

 

[venkat2206]

Dear Members,

I feel the TTD wants to make huge money with huge crowd gathering to visit Thirumala.All these things only for mony only.If the crowed is more they can do more business.

V.Rajagopal-Coimbatore

Dear Shri Rajagpoal,

Sorry to differ with your views. If this is the view, then the same thing is applicable to all places of worship. First of all, nobody is forcing anyone to visit temples. Visit to temples are out of one's own wishes. If it so happended millions of people are keen to visit Tirupathi then let it be there like that. Point of discussions is here is about the huge crowd and the effeorts taken by TTD to manage the same. Points given by various members are how best TTD is able to control the crowd and the efforts taken by them on continuous basis to provide possible amenities.

No one can deny the fact that the money is important for doing everything. Money collected TTD is spent for providing good facilities to the devottees. Temple is certainly meant even for those people who are coming for free darshan. Hence, even if one does not want to spend anything, they can also visit Tirupati and have Darshan. Hence, in my view people go to Tirupati more out of undisputable faith they have in Lord Balaji.

Venkat K

 

[avv_calib1]

Dear Members,

I have posted my thread based on my personal experience I have experienced at TTD.

(a)Because of heavy crowd the un-authorized "VENDORS" are allowed to come in side the BIG PUBLIC Q to sell their things.
(b)Almost all these vendors are having direct link with TTD officials/Politicians.
(c)In fact every Municipal Ward counselors and local(Thirumala)politicians got major business share with these vendors.

I feel I am correct.

V.Rajagopal,Coimbatore

 

[venkat2206]

Dear Shri Rajagopal,

What you have stated is out of your own personal experience then I have no further to comments to offer.

First of all, the vendors who are selling the goods in the queue - items like Biscuits, Water bottles, soft drinks - they are not charging any exhorbitant prices. They are selling the goods only at their MRPs. The way in which people buy those items - you might have seen while waiting in the queue- shows it is for the convenience of the people. Once in a group when we were waiting in Rs. 300 queue for more than 4 hours to go near Vaikumtam Complex, we were eagerly waiting for such types of vendors. While standing in the same queue we also got the chance to take "butter milk" supplied in disposable glasses free of cost. When enquired, we were informed that it was a special arrangement by TTD to supply butter milk free to devottees.

BTW, I am not in any connected with anybody in TTD. I am only an ordinary visitor to Tirupati twice in a year with two different group of friends from Mumbai.

Regards

Venkat

 

[ozone]

Dear Shri Rajagopal,

What you have stated is out of your own personal experience then I have no further to comments to offer.

Dear Sri venkat,
If I am not mistaken, I think Shri Rajagopal's point was the opportunity provided to the vendors by prolonging the queue. If the rates were above MRP that would have made news and protest, so that might not be point.
There were times when the wait time was long and there we no such vendors. Then most prayers were for the vendors than the Lord, so these are appreciable moves, imo.

If one understands that inside the garbagriha there is always crowd, then we cannot say these waits are deliberated, except of course on days when VIPs visit

 

[avv_calib1]

Dear Members,
I consider/feel keeping the devotees inside the "CELL" is human violation.Let us think some other alternate for this "Cell" system.

V.Rajagopal-Coimbatore

 

[sarang]

What is to be done for these groups?

1. Buses packed to beyond capacity, people hanging from the foot board and window bars.
2. Densely packed fans in a steel single file tunnel to see rajani or vijay film.
3. People in suits crowding the departure lounge post security check, elbowing others despite allocation of seats
4. Mass crowding of people in dandumariamman koil in coimbatore.
5. Cricket and football matches in packed stadiums.

On a positive note, TD can do the following.
1. Give two laddus and a big size framed picture of Lord Venkateshwara for those who are willing to sacrifice darshan.
2. Strap devotees to a non-stop conveyor; this too will not guarantee crowding at the entry point.
3. Create multiple temple facilities strictly limiting entry to each temple (say 1000). More job and vendor opportunities.
4. Written complaint to human rights violation committee.
5. Public interest litigation in andhra court.

Dear Members,
I consider/feel keeping the devotees inside the "CELL" is human violation.Let us think some other alternate for this "Cell" system.

V.Rajagopal-Coimbatore

 

[avv_calib1]

Dear Members,

There are many differences between ordinary Temples and TTD. In fact the TTD is only temple in the country attracting large devotees and making good/huge money.

I should even say the entire income from the TTD plays a major role in AP state budget.
When the AP Government is enjoying all the income from the poor devotees, is not the duty of the AP Government/TTD to provide free and fair Venkatesa Dharshanam, however keeping the devotees in “CELL” for hours together needs to be reviewed.

I totally disagree with the concept of confining the poor devotees in “CELL” for hours together.

Om Namo Narayana!

V.RAJAGOPAL,COIMBATORE.

 

[Nara]

I totally disagree with the concept of confining the poor devotees in “CELL” for hours together.

Dear V.RAJAGOPAL of COIMBATORE, I am puzzled, did anybody force these poor devotees into the "CELL"?

If you ask me, I am sure not many will, I think TTD does a fantastic job managing the crowd. I have been locked up in a "CELL" myself once or twice and I must say, it was not so bad, given the delusional ecstasy of "Govinda, Govinda" that lay ahead in waiting. Besides, TTD does provide all the amenities that one might imagine while locked up, believe you me I was thankful for that when that physiological urge that could not be endured hit me on once occasion.

So, dear Shri V.R., take it easy, getting locked up in this "CELL" is probably part of the divine ecstasy the poor devotees expect, why deprive them of it I say, no?

Om Namo Narayana!

This is a strange sign off. SVs make a big deal of the notion Thiruvakshtakram -- Om Namo Narayanaya -- is a secret mantra, only Brahmin males are permitted to even utter it, that too without manifesting it with audible sound so as to protect it from being heard by those who are disallowed to hear it. All others, i.e. other than Brahmin males, are supposed to drop the pranavam (Om) at the beginning and the fourth case (aaya) at the end when writing it or saying it aloud in a way it may be heard by others. That is, if one must write the mantra, it must be written as Namo Narayana, dropping the pranavam and the fourth case. I notice you have dropped the fourth case at the end, but you have written out the prnavam, a big no no.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

In Sririangam, Om namo narayanaya is broadcast from gopuram mounted speakers every morning. The koil jeer has not gone on a hunger strike to stop this. Majority of srivaishnavites including ladies chant this. Om has become a universal mantra for all including mlechas as part of their yoga and meditation practice. So is the practice of chanting mantras in tirupati and shiva temples

Barbs at srivaishnavam or any matam for that matter is the pasttime for some. As in other matams, there are some who are very orthodox and some who have faith in core sidhdhanta but lax in some practices. And when in doubt, they take help and advice from their acharyas.

Ramanujar has demystified the mantra 'om namo narayanaya' and quashed the secrecy and revealed it to all.

Even ordinary folks who attend transcendental meditation, art of living, isha yoga and reiki even refuse to divulge the bija mantra they are given by the 'teacher' of the course. The secrecy is not the mantra, but dependent on how it is received.

 

[renuka]

The secrecy is not the mantra, but dependent on how it is received.

Actually you are right..there is no secrecy about any mantra I feel.
If you sit in a quiet room where no sound can be heard after sometime we can hear the blood flowing in our inner ear and its a humming sound just like AUM.

When it is in our head what is actually a secret?

Just to add..now I am starting to wonder is that why Mantras are whispered into the ear of the disciple on initiation...just sort of reminding us that the Pranava is actually resonating in the blood flow of the inner ear??

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

It is from Latin Cellula meaning a Small Room.
Why not we take it as a "Confined Room" in a Centralised Place
Why should we mean it as Cell; why not we term it as a Compartment
Why should we mean it in the sense - Cell > Prison

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Sri"Nara",

I do not disbelieve when you say that you have visited the Temple at the seven hills. I must admit you are at your best when you make sarcastic remarks. But I find it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff ! Are you serious when you say "getting locked up in this "CELL" is probably part of the divine ecstasy the poor devotees expect, why deprive them of it I say, no?" Keeping the devotees in "cells" may regulate the crowds, but it is inhuman. Can't we think of some other method of crowd control ?

Well, personally I prefer not go to Temples which sell different class of tickets for dharshan of the deity, since I believe there should be absolute equality in the places of worship. If required, preference should be given only to weak and infirm, not on any other consideration. The pushing and shouting and the inhuman treatment meted out to devout inside the sanctum by the guards and temple staff makes me think how could any one will get peace of mind in the presence of his beloved Lord in the melee !

More I see such happenings in our major Temples, I get confused with disbelief and wonder whether we should visit such Temples at all !

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[prasad1]

Generally you go to a place of your own free will, barring some exceptions.
If you have faith, you will accept the hardships, as part and parcel of the total experience. If you do not have the faith, and in your research you find that it is testing, do not go. It is as simple as that.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sri"Nara",

I do not disbelieve when you say that you have visited the Temple at the seven hills. I must admit you are at your best when you make sarcastic remarks. But I find it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff ! Are you serious when you say "getting locked up in this "CELL" is probably part of the divine ecstasy the poor devotees expect, why deprive them of it I say, no?" Keeping the devotees in "cells" may regulate the crowds, but it is inhuman. Can't we think of some other method of crowd control ?

Well, personally I prefer not go to Temples which sell different class of tickets for dharshan of the deity, since I believe there should be absolute equality in the places of worship. If required, preference should be given only to weak and infirm, not on any other consideration. The pushing and shouting and the inhuman treatment meted out to devout inside the sanctum by the guards and temple staff makes me think how could any one will get peace of mind in the presence of his beloved Lord in the melee !

More I see such happenings in our major Temples, I get confused with disbelief and wonder whether we should visit such Temples at all !

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

One has to visit Disney world to understand about crowd control.

disney world crowd control - How Disney World Works With Crowds


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]thirty million annual visitors to Disney world, but they have lot more acreage and attractions.
[/FONT]
Compared to that Tirupati receives 19 million visitors a year.
Tirupati Temple Receives More Visitors Than the Vatican.

We in India can learn a lot more in crowd control, and service to our patrons. In India customer is treated with disdain, and not as potential repeat customer.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Prasad1

The reasons may be many, but these days one finds only Lunatics, Convicts and Gods [ deities ] confined
behind bars - all Utsva Moorthies and Moolavars in Sannidhanams are all locked in, whether Tirupathi or
Tanjavur.

In the course of the brief " imprisonment " I guess one gets a fair idea of what it feels like to be locked in, in Tirupathi.

I hope everyone has a good " Darshan " [ read freedom ]

Guruvethunai
Anand Manohar

 

[prasad1]

Dear Prasad1

The reasons may be many, but these days one finds only Lunatics, Convicts and Gods [ deities ] confined
behind bars - all Utsva Moorthies and Moolavars in Sannidhanams are all locked in, whether Tirupathi or
Tanjavur.

In the course of the brief " imprisonment " I guess one gets a fair idea of what it feels like to be locked in, in Tirupathi.

I hope everyone has a good " Darshan " [ read freedom ]

Guruvethunai
Anand Manohar

Do I read sarcasm in your post!!!!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Yes sir, It has become commercial now. In almost all the temples , they levy a fee for entry . The levy has a graded system also depending upon at which point of the Q you shortcut the line.

You pay charges for safe-keeping of the footwear also . This business is given to the highest bidder at an auction.

In the olden days, we used to climb Tirupathi Hills shouting 'Govinda, Govinda' and in this way we used to forget the leg-cramps also. We got immense pleasure when we were atop the Hills and went into raptures on seeing the Lord in the temple - without any entrance fee. The food was free and the rent for the cottage was nominal. It was a genuine pilgrimage.

Now, it is almost trade everywhere and less said is better.

 

[sarang]

One must see the patient wait of 'hopefuls' overnight for american visa in chennai and mumbai. They are happy because the reward of entry to USA overrides all discomforts. They never complain.

The land of equality, the US, denies visa to some, offers (or offered) instant citizenship to those who are ready to transfer or invest a large dollar kitty. All are equal, but some are more equal than others, is always the reality.

Agreed, it is the individual's right to decide whether a visit to the temple is needed or not. Even in olden days, they, who could not go to tirupati for any reason (health, family obligations etc.) sent their offerings through someone going there or by 'worshiping' those who made the trip.

Dear Sri"Nara",

I do not disbelieve when you say that you have visited the Temple at the seven hills. I must admit you are at your best when you make sarcastic remarks. But I find it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff ! Are you serious when you say "getting locked up in this "CELL" is probably part of the divine ecstasy the poor devotees expect, why deprive them of it I say, no?" Keeping the devotees in "cells" may regulate the crowds, but it is inhuman. Can't we think of some other method of crowd control ?

Well, personally I prefer not go to Temples which sell different class of tickets for dharshan of the deity, since I believe there should be absolute equality in the places of worship. If required, preference should be given only to weak and infirm, not on any other consideration. The pushing and shouting and the inhuman treatment meted out to devout inside the sanctum by the guards and temple staff makes me think how could any one will get peace of mind in the presence of his beloved Lord in the melee !

More I see such happenings in our major Temples, I get confused with disbelief and wonder whether we should visit such Temples at all !

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Ranganathan Sir,

Nice to hear from you after a long time. Hope you are doing well.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

.. Are you serious when you say "getting locked up in this "CELL" is probably part of the divine ecstasy the poor devotees expect, why deprive them of it I say, no?" Keeping the devotees in "cells" may regulate the crowds, but it is inhuman. Can't we think of some other method of crowd control ?

Dear B sir, I don't blame you for your difficulty to separate wheat from the chaff, my views are often seen as mostly chaff !

As I said, I have spent time in those "CELLS" myself, and I didn't find it to be inhuman, as I mentioned, TTD provides all the amenities one may require. Also, my father used to go to Tiruppati by foot starting from Chennai every year. These days lot of people do. These have become part of the pilgrimage, the difficulties are to be expected and to be enjoyed as divine experience.

There is probably a touch of sarcasm in the text you have cited, but it is not directed at those poor folks who freely cry out Govinda, Govinda, free of the shyness of the middle-class Brahmins jumping the queue with the Rs.500 ticket. My point was TTD, for all its faults, does a great job getting these millions of people in and out of the hills safely, one must admire that.

how could any one will get peace of mind in the presence of his beloved Lord in the melee !

For me, when I was an SV, Thiruppati was not for peace of mind, it was, for me, a way to connect to Bhagavat Ramanuja, Anantazhvan, Periya Thirumalai Nambi, and other stalwarts of SV Acharya lineage who spent eventful time in the hills.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Sarang Ji,

Don't you think that comparing the task of getting a visa to enter a country is totally and completely different from entering a temple for worship? I know you harbor a negative feeling about the US, but I think this type of comparison ultimately is not the right one to highlight the issues we have with our temples.

As Sri Brahmanyan Ji said, our temples should have equal access to all, giving preference to the disadvantaged. Our religion is not the first and won't be the last to restrict access to God based on wealth and influence. But, in my opinion, the situation has degenerated over the years. I, for one, do not visit big temples anymore when I visit India, because of this inequity. Especially Tirupati, which is my family's Ishta Deivatha's abode.

Regards,
KRS

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

My dear Sri KRS ji,

Thank you sir. I am ok.

with kind regards,
N.R.Ranganathan.

 

[sarang]

You are drawing wrong conclusions. I said, people are prepared to wait to achieve what they want. Earlier I had referred to queuing for cinema and games tickets. Equality is difficult to enforce in all places and in all circumstances. Old and infirm people are given preferential treatment in tirupati, srirangam and guruvayur (in other temples too, i believe).
I may harbour negative feelings about US only when it works against india's interests - indo pak politics or refusing permission to import multi axis cnc machines or defence/ nuclear related purchases in 80s and 90s. Otherwise US is as good or as bad as any other country. Visa grant or denial is certainly not an issue except to those who are in the line of fire.

Tirupathi temple trust has done lot of good work too with the money they collect - publishing samskrit religious books, supporting veda patashalas and funding many public service activities.

What is the issue here? Differential entry rates leading to privileges for few? I am under the impression that computerised token system has considerably reduced the waiting time.

Dear Sri Sarang Ji,

Don't you think that comparing the task of getting a visa to enter a country is totally and completely different from entering a temple for worship? I know you harbor a negative feeling about the US, but I think this type of comparison ultimately is not the right one to highlight the issues we have with our temples.

As Sri Brahmanyan Ji said, our temples should have equal access to all, giving preference to the disadvantaged. Our religion is not the first and won't be the last to restrict access to God based on wealth and influence. But, in my opinion, the situation has degenerated over the years. I, for one, do not visit big temples anymore when I visit India, because of this inequity. Especially Tirupati, which is my family's Ishta Deivatha's abode.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

My dear brother sarang,

You are over reacting. People normally sign off with the full thiruvashtaksharam, "Om Namo Narayanaya", or, if persuaded by the edicts, leave out pranavam and the 4th case, and sign off "Namo Narayana". I noticed the poster left out the ending 4th case but kept Om, I just wanted to know whether this was just accidental or deliberate. You are taking this to a different level.

In Sririangam, Om namo narayanaya is broadcast from gopuram mounted speakers every morning. The koil jeer has not gone on a hunger strike to stop this. Majority of srivaishnavites including ladies chant this. Om has become a universal mantra for all including mlechas as part of their yoga and meditation practice. So is the practice of chanting mantras in tirupati and shiva temples

Yes, not just thiruvashtaksharam, but dwayam and charama shlokam as well. I have seen thiruvashtaksharam in neon light in many temples. If early acharyas see all this they will be mortified. The present day Jeeyars do not have any say in matters such as these.

But all this is besides the point, I just wanted to know whether there was any significance behind leaving out the ending but keeping the pravaam at the end.

Why do you see this as a barb, is it because you somehow feel what I am saying is a put down? If you see my query as a put down that is your own view, I reject any responsibility.

Ramanujar has demystified the mantra 'om namo narayanaya' and quashed the secrecy and revealed it to all.

Dear sarang, this shows you are not familiar with the written history of Ramanuja's life. What Ramanuja actually did, we do not know, except through the written accounts that are hagiographical in nature. Even these hagiographical accounts do not say anything close to what you are claiming.

There are only two widely accepted text that narrate this event, they are 6000p padi (the earliest one) and 3000p padi (only the Vadakalais accept this version) Guru Parampara Prabhavam. Between the two 6000p padi is an earlier text and it gives more liberal account. The Vadakali version is generally more conservative. Even in the more liberal account narrated in the earlier text, there is nothing to hang the above claim.

According to 6000p padi, Ramanuja did not go to the top of the temple Gopuram at all, he did not do upadesham to anybody at all, he only went to an SV gathering, and Ramanuja did not do mantra upadesham to anybody, he only revealed the mantra-artham. For SVs, and perhaps other Brahmnical relgions as well, the secret is in the mantra sabdam, not in its artham. In other words, it is the mantra sabdam that is to be kept secret and must not be chanted aloud. Even today, those who believe in these mantras swear by this rule.

Further, for any effect to be derived one must first be initiated into the mantra and then only one is qualified to chant it. Chanting without the upadesham will have no effect.

In the largest of the Vadakalais matams, when initiating anyone who is not a Brahmin male, the mantra is initiated as "அம் நமோ நாராயணா" not in the full form, this is a fact, you may check with Sri Ahoibila Matam if you like.

The original story of Ramanuja ignoring his acharya's edict is quite inspiring as it is, but people over the years have added a lot of ornamental trinkets, like the rakshahas of Lanka tying up Hanuman with ropes over and above the Brahmmastram.

All said and done, please point out what part of what I said is factually wrong. I give below what I wrote:

"This is a strange sign off. SVs make a big deal of the notion Thiruvakshtakram -- Om Namo Narayanaya -- is a secret mantra, only Brahmin males are permitted to even utter it, that too without manifesting it with audible sound so as to protect it from being heard by those who are disallowed to hear it. All others, i.e. other than Brahmin males, are supposed to drop the pranavam (Om) at the beginning and the fourth case (aaya) at the end when writing it or saying it aloud in a way it may be heard by others. That is, if one must write the mantra, it must be written as Namo Narayana, dropping the pranavam and the fourth case. I notice you have dropped the fourth case at the end, but you have written out the prnavam, a big no no."


​

Please point out any factual error from above, cite my own words, not your interpretation of it.

Cheers!