Varna, Jaathi and Race

[Nara]

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nara,

however, it is a different story with my kinfolks in india...

Hello Shri Kunjuppu:

Greetings!

This happened in my own family. My niece wanted to marry a forward caste TNB she met and fell in love at work. The opposition was fierce from her parents, grandparents, and everyone else. A sample of reactions follows.

• We gave her education, the freedom, and look what she is doing now.
• We spent our entire life raising her and now she is abandoning us.
• Look how beautiful our daughter is and this NB is snatching her away from us.
• We shouldn't have given her this education...

I spent hours with the parents to no avail. All this for a wonderful and thoughtful man, with all the Atma Gunas many Brahmins may not even be aware existed, with an IIT education, and a secure and well paying job, etc. etc.

She went ahead and married the guy, the parents did not show, but the grandparents and Chittappa showed up, upon my persuasion I would like to think. They were not impressed though, why he is so dark, he was wearing a kurta, having IIT education or a good job is not everything....

This is where we are, there is not even a whiff of what unconditional love means. Just imagine if she wanted to marry another girl, what would her parents do? Eliminating Varna/Jati is not going to deliver us into Shangre La, it is just the beginning.

Now, my wife and I are "untouchables" to the parents, they think I was the one who encouraged her.

If only the parents throw this caste burden they are carrying on their head there is a world of bliss to be had helping the newly wed couple embark on their marriage. No, no, what will the relatives say, what will the friends say, what will the people in the Matam say???

 

[RVR]

Hitler felt his killing of 6 Million Jews as good for his power position and good for his fellow country men, Germans..

So, is the case with Komeni, Stalin,Mussolini,Naturam Godse..They always justified their acts and felt good.. Its seems you are OK with them?

Both Hitler and Mossolini were punished by international community.

Godse was punished by the Indian courts.

Regarding Komeni and Stalin, only their respective countries are responsible for any crimes committed according to their laws.

Why you bring Nathuram Godse, since Mahathma Gandhi is an opportunist according to you

 

[Nara]

Dowry is an offence under Indian Penal Code Section 304 B and Section 498A. In addition there is a separate legislation The 1961 Dowry Prohibition Act'. I am preaching only the law of the land and nothing else.

Dear Shri. Venkataramani:

Greetings!

There are good laws and bad laws. At one time making salt was prohibited by law. Also, slavery was permitted by law in the U.S. at one time. So, strictly speaking, just being lawful is not a sufficient reason to advocate a given position. I would like to think that your opposition to dowry is solely because of the pain and suffering it has wrought so many families, not because it is unlawful. Of course it being unlawful is welcome. Am I right?

Dear Sir, Please do not think I was trying to trap you into a contradiction. We all are expressing our opinions and let us do that without prejudice.

Cheers!

 

[Singleliner]

Shri.Venkatramai,

I think I may not be that smart in debating with you... I give up..

 

[Singleliner]

Nara, post No#39..

Awesome and amazing.. I was just pondering over your thought pattern, in a times I thought off giving up further responding..

There is something I got to learn from you too..Come what the views are, but then, you share some great perspective. To be frank, I rush in to see your post's first. Great show..

Its not a flattery word.. I mean this..

 

[RVR]

Dear Shri. Venkataramani:

Greetings!

There are good laws and bad laws. At one time making salt was prohibited by law. Also, slavery was permitted by law in the U.S. at one time. So, strictly speaking, just being lawful is not a sufficient reason to advocate a given position. I would like to think that your opposition to dowry is solely because of the pain and suffering it has wrought so many families, not because it is unlawful. Of course it being unlawful is welcome. Am I right?

Dear Sir, Please do not think I was trying to trap you into a contradiction. We all are expressing our opinions and let us do that without prejudice.

Dear Shri Nara ji,

I don't want to talk about US Legislations.

Salt Satyagraha was part of freedom struggle in India. It happened before independence and against British rule. When British rule itself is illegal, their legislations are also illegal.

But now India is ruled by Indians. Dowry legislation is part of Indian legislation enacted after independence.

There is vast difference between legislation enacted during British rule and legislation enacted by Indian Parliment.

I am not contradicting anything.


All the best

 

[Nara]

There is vast difference between legislation enacted during British rule and legislation enacted by Indian Parliment.

Alright, then, what would you say about the laws that provide for reservations based on caste in various educational institutions? These are laws duly passed by the Indian parliament and signed by the President. Would you also advocate in favor of these laws with the same force as the laws that forbid dowry?

Laws against homosexuality enacted by the British are still in the books and used to their advantage by the policeman of India even though the Britishers themselves have repealed them. (Only recently the Delhi HC struck this law down, but it is being appealed to the SC with the central government not joining the appeal.)

Sir, laws can sometimes be unjust, regardless of who enacted them. Just because something is lawful does not necessarily mean that something is just.

I think we are missing the point and have gone on a tangent. Let us not make this into a contest of endurance.

Thank you!

 

[RVR]

Alright, then, what would you say about the laws that provide for reservations based on caste in various educational institutions? These are laws duly passed by the Indian parliament and signed by the President. Would you also advocate in favor of these laws with the same force as the laws that forbid dowry?

Laws against homosexuality enacted by the British are still in the books and used to their advantage by the policeman of India even though the Britishers themselves have repealed them. (Only recently the Delhi HC struck this law down, but it is being appealed to the SC with the central government not joining the appeal.)

Sir, laws can sometimes be unjust, regardless of who enacted them. Just because something is lawful does not necessarily mean that something is just.

I think we are missing the point and have gone on a tangent. Let us not make this into a contest of endurance.

Thank you!

We follow the reservation law. Once it is passed in Parliment and enacted as legislation, we have to obey it. There is no other option. We have learnt to live with the reservations for several decades.

Regarding homosexuality, the matter is in Supreme court. Let us wait for the decision of the supreme court.

In a democracy, we have to respect the rule of law and personally I don't feel anything wrong in it. It is the collective opinion of all the people of the country.

If we have to change the law, we have to fight it in the appropriate forums only. We cannot say we will not obey the law.

I am very clear in my mind about the rule of law.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Venkataramani:

Greetings!

I am very clear in my mind about the rule of law.

You said advocating against dowry is alright but advocating against Varna/Jati is not alright because dowry is prohibited by law, but there is no law against marrying within the same Jati.

Then, making the story short, I asked whether you would advocate with equal enthusiasm in favor of reservation because, using the same logic as before, it is the law. In other words, what is good for goose is good for the gander.

Your answer is not clear.

May I take it then, that you are fully in favor of the reservation system and will advocate its implementation with the same force and vigor?

If the answer is yes I would like to applaud you for not taking a hypocritical position.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Then, making the story short, I asked whether you would advocate with equal enthusiasm in favor of reservation because, using the same logic as before, it is the law. In other words, what is good for goose is good for the gander.

Reservation is an accepted fact for several decades. If the Government wants, let them pass even a legislation providing 100% reservation for certain communities. Personally I am not at all opposing it. Only Supreme court will object.

If you see my writing in these columns elsewhere, you will find that I am fighting for basic education of all the deprived communities. One third of the people in the whole of India and more than one fourth of the people in Tamilnadu are deprived of even basic education. Eventhough there is no accurate statistics, I earnestly feel,literacy level will be lowest among SC,ST,Muslims, MBC, OBC than the so called forward communities.

Government of India has just passed a legislation on `right to education' for all in the age group of 6 to 14 which I whole heartedly welcome it. I earnestly feel that it is a belated legislation.

Unless literacy level improves, India as a country will not improve. We may differ on issues, but my view is literacy is the root cause of most of the social evils. Once literacy improves, people will migrate from villages to cities, towns, other states & countries. They will not carry the so called `low caste' baggage along with them. It happened in Kerala where people migrated to other states and gulf countries. Now people below poverty line is very much less in Kerala as compared to other states including Tamilnadu.

All the best

 

[Nara]

If the Government wants, let them pass even a legislation providing 100% reservation for certain communities. Personally I am not at all opposing it.

Dear Shri Venkataramani:

Greetings!

This is somewhat surprising! In any case I appreciate your consistency in terms of supporting the law. It is still not clear though whether you will apply the same logic to reservation as the one you were advocating with respect to dowry v. varna/jati.

Be that as it may, speaking for myself, while I support reservation in principle, I am absolutely against the reservation laws that have been enacted and enforced by the governments. These laws perpetuate caste divisions. I believe there are better ways of addressing past oppression.

I believe, as did Mahathma Gandhi, laws can be unjust sometimes, and it is perfectly within the rights of the citizens to oppose them through non-violent civil-disobedience aka Satyagragha.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri Nara ji,

This is just for information. Please visit the following website

India's caste system 'is thousands of years old', DNA shows - Telegraph

The article says caste system prevailed much before British invasion.

However if you go back to 7th Century AD (Sambandar period) and 9th century AD (Sundarar period) caste was there but without discriminations. Both Sambandar and Sundarar are TBs and they never expressed apprehensions about marrying other community girls. Intercaste marriages were prevalent during that time.

How it changed, why, when, how is the big question.

If you are able to get the answers, please inform.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Venkataramani ji,

People generally seem to have mated within similar occupation groups. However, inflow and outflow possibly do not seem to have been restricted. Therefore, one may find both, a clustered group corresponding to a specific occupation group; as well as admixuture in that same occupation group. In my observation, i notice that the northern region tends to exhibit more distinctive patterns than the southern region. However, all these studies are so very dependent on (and therefore restricted to) the availability of more and more enhanced technology....(please note am a student pursuing a masters course so my obervations may not all be right)..

Just to share, was recently reading 2 very interesting articles. Here are the abstracts (unfortunately the full articles are not available without subscription):

1) Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1[ast] substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system

2) Journal of Human Genetics - Abstract of article: Diverse genetic origin of Indian Muslims: evidence from autosomal STR loci

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Ms Happy Hindu ji,

I am able to get the following table

Journal of Human Genetics - Table 1 for article: The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1[ast] substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system

More detailed text is also available in the following website

Journal of Human Genetics - The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1[ast] substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system

It doesn't cover south india.

If possible please enlighten me more on this

Thanks. All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Venkatramani Ji,

Thankyou for the link to the full paper.

The sample size they took for the study did not include brahmins from south india. But they took the presence of r1a1 in chenchus (a southie tribal group) apart from saharia (a central india tribal group) into consideration in their study (and also compared their sample size with 80 dravidian brahmins: Journal of Human Genetics - Table 3 for article: The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1[ast] substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system ). Was reading this particular paper because its a fairly recent publication (jan this year).

imho, the paper seems to convey that caste as a system did not originate from anywhere 'outside' but it happened within the country itself, as people created seperated mating groups based on occupations, over time.

To me it also seems to reinforce the idea that caste as a system was not 'imposed' on people, rather it grew (as a system) as the society evolved into a more organized structure in the old times.

What am trying to convey is that there is no point blaming anyone for things or trying to create a revolution (changes will happen slowly as it does with evolution in time, as the society and the economy will evolve). The system definitely did serve its purpose (as a system of meritocracy) but it just happened to become rusted over time..And now what we have is a different kind of economy with different kinds of (emerging) social structures...its the new caste system of haves (rich ppl), have-nots (poor ppl) and the burgeoning middle class in this new age industrialized society...

Regards.

 

[RVR]

Thank you very much Happy hindu ji. Very good information.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear Ms. Happyhindu:

Greetings!

To me it also seems to reinforce the idea that caste as a system was not 'imposed' on people, rather it grew (as a system) as the society evolved into a more organized structure in the old times.

I read the paper with great interest -- a little too technical, but interesting.

I did not see any clue that would support your conjecture that the caste system was not imposed on people. The evidence suggests a common link between Brahmins and Adhivasees over 10000 years ago. Textual evidence of the hierarchical Varna system is found in Rg Veda, and later in Manu Smrithi. These come much later. All we can say is that the Varna system is indigenous. There is nothing here to even speculate it was a benign, organic, self-evolved system.

What am trying to convey is that there is no point blaming anyone for things or trying to create a revolution (changes will happen slowly as it does with evolution in time, as the society and the economy will evolve).

Of course, it is natural for Brahmins to refuse to accept any blame for this pernicious system and say let us wait, change will come in its own time. I reject this. For whatever it is worth, I think Brahmins should stand up and be counted, accept responsibility, not for the benefit of other people, but for our own sake, our own humanity, our own sense of justice.

The system definitely did serve its purpose (as a system of meritocracy)

Meritocracy? Really? The less said the better....


Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nara,

How does a small group of people without any real power except persuation, 'impose' their system on to 95% of other people in the society and maintain it over centuries?

This is where your assumption flies in the face of logic.

I think all Varnas took part in this system voluntarily.

You have granted me the last words in the thread about 'Social Justice in Hinduism'. I will soon post my thoughts there about our community's responsibility regarding this.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

How does a small group of people without any real power except persuation, 'impose' their system on to 95% of other people in the society and maintain it over centuries?

This is where your assumption flies in the face of logic.

I think all Varnas took part in this system voluntarily.

Hi,

The small group was not without power, they had the power and they guarded it very closely, with the threat of varying degrees of punishments for anyone crossing any line. With power, small group dominating large group is not uncommon at all.

Brahmins were not alone in this. The warrior class (Kshathriya) was very much a part of this development. In more recent times, i.e. last 1000 years or so, it was the Brahmin - Velala nexus that dominated all others. The arrival of British changed the dynamics and now we have what we have.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Nara,

Dear Ms. Happyhindu:

Greetings!


I read the paper with great interest -- a little too technical, but interesting.

I did not see any clue that would support your conjecture that the caste system was not imposed on people. The evidence suggests a common link between Brahmins and Adhivasees over 10000 years ago. Textual evidence of the hierarchical Varna system is found in Rg Veda, and later in Manu Smrithi. These come much later. All we can say is that the Varna system is indigenous. There is nothing here to even speculate it was a benign, organic, self-evolved system.

This is not the only paper that links brahmins and adhivasis with a common genetic pool. It just happens to be one of the recent papers that i felt like sharing since it explored links b/w a cross section of northie brahmins, including those of Kashmir, with a cross section of other population groups.

There are other such papers as well (like this one: Peopling of South Asia: investigating the caste-tr...[Bioessays. 2007] - PubMed Result ). A simple search in pubmed wud bring forth such papers (not sure how many full texts are available without susbscription, but i think there shd be good many such journal publications freely available over the net). How or what things seem to me depends on other papers as well. And ofcourse the ideas keep changing, based on stuff as found each time.

to clarify:
had specifically mentioned the phrase "to me" and did not mention that this is what exactly the paper is conveying.

to explore:
Sir, if they shared a common ancestry 10k years ago, how did one group start imposing things on the other? I would not like to consider the Manu Smrithi in this regard as it is far too recent. May i request you to share the textual evidence of varna from the rig please? And i don't think social organization as a class based structure was fixed at birth in the early rig period. It may be probable that the beginnings of it (of organized occupation groups and ppl mating within similar occupation groups) started in the later rig. Class organization came to exist, as a organized society, but certainly i do not seem to find any textual evidence in the rig that it was imposed on people.

Though dated as a more recent text (around 1500bc), based on the kind of life described in the rig, i do think it might have been composed earlier (around 6000 to 8000bc or so). And i think it is pretty much consistent with the fact that an organized agri-based society started evolving from the neolithic seminomadic pastoralism some 10k years ago.


Of course, it is natural for Brahmins to refuse to accept any blame for this pernicious system and say let us wait, change will come in its own time. I reject this. For whatever it is worth, I think Brahmins should stand up and be counted, accept responsibility, not for the benefit of other people, but for our own sake, our own humanity, our own sense of justice.


Meritocracy? Really? The less said the better....


Cheers!

Hi,

The small group was not without power, they had the power and they guarded it very closely, with the threat of varying degrees of punishments for anyone crossing any line. With power, small group dominating large group is not uncommon at all.

Brahmins were not alone in this. The warrior class (Kshathriya) was very much a part of this development. In more recent times, i.e. last 1000 years or so, it was the Brahmin - Velala nexus that dominated all others. The arrival of British changed the dynamics and now we have what we have.

Sir, i think you are speaking of very recent times, of the centuries a little before the colonialists came in. The early 15th century had brahmins as land owners, and it does seem the ppl appointed by the vijaynagar empire as nayakas were brahmins at that time. However the later part of the 15th century saw non-brahmins becoming land-owners and being appointed as nayaka administrators. And this happened since there was a revolt by both the righthand and lefthand factions against the brahmin-vellala administration (which by accounts of Noburu Karashima i gather was stemmed largely in the later 15th century). So you see whenever things get imposed on the masses, they revolt.

And sure during the colonial rule too, people revolted against caste-based stuff as what they saw as imposition at that time. However, any system could not have survived for as long as a few centuries if it was considered stifling as an imposition. If the class based social structure was considered an imposition in the old times, people wud have revolted against at that time itself, centuries ago.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri Nara Ji,

You are a learned professor with vast knowledge. I don't have to suggest anything to you. My humble request is,`please don't put all the blame on the forefathers of our community'. I am sure you will agree with me that none of us know what happened thousands of years back.

During Sambandar (7th Centure AD) and Sundarar (9th Centure AD) periods, caste system prevailed. Both of them were TBs. Both of them didn't practice caste discrimination when it came to marriage. Whatever progressive thoughts you are suggesting now were practiced by our own community members more than 1000 years back.

However it has changed in between. Whatever papers published based on DNA studies are done with the assistance of eminent universities like Harvard and MIT. The study only concludes that people of this country had multiple groups for several thousands of years. Probably marriages would have happened within the groups for several thousands of years.

My humble suggestion is, we should make an objective analysis of Why and how this grouping happened? Getting answer for this will clear most of our doubts. But getting answer itself is going to be a very tough job.

I earnesly feel - let us not argue on Whether 5% of the people imposed this grouping on 95% of the others

 

[happyhindu]

The study only concludes that people of this country had multiple groups for several thousands of years. Probably marriages would have happened within the groups for several thousands of years.

My humble suggestion is, we should make an objective analysis of Why and how this grouping happened? Getting answer for this will clear most of our doubts. But getting answer itself is going to be a very tough job.

I earnesly feel - let us not argue on Whether 5% of the people imposed this grouping on 95% of the others

Sir,

If people had mated within similar occupation groups for a long time it cud lead to accumulated changes in allele frequencies common to that group, and naturally they will show up as a group seperated out from another groups. This does not mean the groups are unrelated. All are related as a one big set; and this one big set has several subsets. People within a subset turn out to be more closely related to each other (since they had been mating within the same occupation group or within themselves for a long time). However, these multiple subsets can show admixture as well, meaning that recent or ancient inflow of genetic material and mingling of populations would have occured. Hope someone can offer a better explanation here, am not sure i was able to get it across well enuf.

Why the grouping occured? Simply because even an office cannot function without hierarchical structuring. It just seems to evolve. People have designated functions, and they carry out their duties. The brighter ones get promoted to the higher responsibilites. Imho, the varnas represent classes and those of a diff jathi might have quite easily merged into a different varna, if they had the caliber (some say that even according to the manusmrithi ppl went up and down the varna ladder). Ofcourse in this matter, am not considering varna and jaati as the same, and neither am i considering that varna was fixed at birth in the early times.

No sir i do not think it was possible for a 5% to 'impose' things on the remaining 95%.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Venkataramani:

Greetings!

You are a learned professor with vast knowledge.

You must be confusing me with someone else, sure I am a professor alright, but then, believe me, it does not take a lot to become a professor.

I don't have to suggest anything to you. My humble request is,`please don't put all the blame on the forefathers of our community'. I am sure you will agree with me that none of us know what happened thousands of years back.

Here I have no disagreement with you at all. We have started talking about the motivations of people not just 2000 years ago, but 10000 years ago. I don't condemn our forefathers, not at all. They were motivated by the same things as we all are now, but with very little scientific knowledge or resources. In that environment what they achieved is truly amazing.

But, they were also human beings. They developed a system to keep order in society that turned out to be pretty bad. Now, instead of glorifying everything from the past, let us work towards a better society that promotes peace and justice for all. Part of this, I believe, is to admit the past domination and move on.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri Nara ji,

Thanks for your humbleness. Teaching profession is a very noble profession. Whether primary school teacher or college professor, teachers are always held in high esteem.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Dear Ms. Happyhindu:

Greetings!

to explore:
Sir, if they shared a common ancestry 10k years ago, how did one group start imposing things on the other?

Well, may be through trickery, perhaps some intrigue, just kidding. This discussion is getting too heavy and a little levity won't hurt I think.

Small groups dominating big groups happen all the time, it is done through concentration of economic and military power, over time of course. In the world stage today, the U.S., with some help from UK, dominates the entire world. They can do whatever they want with impunity. How did this happen? There may be many theories. Some may even deny that U.S. has such power, or others may argue what U.S. is doing is for the betterment of the world at large. You see, there are so many opinions about things that are happening right now, and you are asking me to tell you how a minority gained power over the majority some 10k years ago. The fact remains, the hierarchical Varna system evolved. How it evolved, there are theories. Textual evidence (look it up they are there) does not support benign motivation.

The interesting thing about Varna system is that it does not pit a small group against a large group. It is a system where each group has sertain rights and certain duties. They are dominated from above and they get to dominate the ones below themselves. Even the people of "cheri" followed such a hierarchical system within themselves. It is like a huge ponzi scheme. When the scheme collapses, it is the people at the top who pay, like Madeoff or the Brahmins. No point complaining others are doing it too.

You all are arguing with me that Varna is not birth based. Alright, let us say, for argument sake, I agree. What difference does that make? You say more than 10K years we were all the same. Yes, of course. But, why stop with 10K years, go back even further and we get to the bushmen of Botswana. No white, black, brown, no Hindu, Muslim, Christian, none of that. Go even further, we all are apes. So, let us look at what we have and what responsibility we must bear for the exploitation of the recent past. The indoctrination is so perfect that 1000 years ago when Bhagavat Ramanuja wanted a Shudra to be his guru, the Shudra refused stating that the Shasthras do not permit a Shudra to be an Acharya to a Brahmin.

From what I have seen of your posts I know that you are a fair person, and abhors exploitation. Let us agree on that point. Whether Varna was once birth based or not, we both agree, I think, that the caste system is abhorrent and our society will be better off if it is eliminated.

Cheers!