Venki calls astrology a fake discipline

[KRS]

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Folks,

Yes, please respond to Sri Yamaka's posting.

My issue is not whether astrology is valid or not. We all have different perceptions and opinions and that is okay.

But when a person calls an age old discipline that has been accepted within the framework of logic that has been developed within our tradition as 'fake', without any studied facts behind it, what one would call that? Opinion or Fact?

I do not care whether a Nobel Laureate or Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu makes this statement. It is an opinion, based on one's belief and nothing more. Is this the way Science works?

My issue is not about whether astrology is valid or not. It is about folks without any knowledge about the discipline calling it names, without understanding one whit of the discipline, judging that it is 'fake'. They say this and insist that the 'believers' need to prove that it is not fake! Did they insist that a culture that brushed their teeth with neem twigs prove that it was scientific? I do not get the logic. I thought when one calls something 'bunk, superstitious or fake' would have enough research material to back up what they are saying.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Yamaka]

What provoked a few and enthralled many in the audience is this part of the speech that Dr. RV gave:

"Delivering the 2nd S V Narasimhan Memorial Oration, organised by Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Dr Ramakrishnan said that just as good system of government guarded people from their worst instincts, the process of science "protects us from our biases and irrationality." "Scientific methods protect us from the danger of false beliefs. No system that does not incorporate proper testing, criticism from peers and other checks of modern science can claim to be 'scientific' regardless of the scientific jargon used," he said.

This is the key. Using this can anyone claim Astrology is a Science?

"Spiritual Science" is an oxymoron... Spirit is a Ghost...or of God... How could Astrology be a Science?

Very funny, indeed.



ps. I am already on record that Religions were created by some MEN, and Religions created very many Gods. Thus Religions and Gods are MEN's creations... similar MEN created Astrology... all are Beliefs and Faiths, not belonging to Scientific Inquiry.

Who in the right mind wants to waste his/her life in analyzing the scientific veracity of Astrology? When some of the Believers themselves don't want to devote their life into it?

Funny! ​

 

[sarang]

Regarding freedom part, I agree. Does not follow he can say whatever comes to his mind. Topic of his talk was 'sceptic scientist'; what scientific method he has used to evaluate astrology. Perhaps he is parroting other 'sceptic scientists'. He is fully informed in his chosen discipline in which he has spent a lifetime. He may also have a lurking fear that if he says anything in favour of astrology, he will be ostracized by the select sceptic scientific community.

Our scientists in august institutions like atomic energy do select auspicious time and do pujas to start a project or launch a reactor. This act does not make them a lesser scientist.

Venkataraman can be called a true scientist if, in his speech, called for an evaluation of astrology on parameters he considers important, instead of resorting to 'unscientific' labeling.

I say he has complete freedom to use those words, as appropriate. He is a fully informed Scientist.
***
3. Dr. RV knows exactly when to say what to say and how to say it!

Because he is a true Scientist... and some Believers call him "not a true scientist"!

 

[sarang]

One counter view:

Researchers demonstrate scientific principle of astrology
Skeptics must be further bewildered by the new research published in ​

Nature Neuroscience and conducted at Vanderbilt University which unintentionally provides scientific support for the fundamental principle of astrology -- namely, that the position of the planets at your time of birth influences your personality.

In this study, not only did the birth month impact personality; it also resulted inmeasurable functional changes in the brain.

Learn more:Principle of astrology proven to be scientific: planetary position imprints biological clocks of mammals

 

[sarang]

[h=2]Education[/h]Education in astrology is offered in a number of countries of the world:
[h=3][edit]United States[/h]In the United States, astrological education is offered at institutions such as Kepler College, a liberal arts college with an emphasis on astrology in Lynnwood, Washington, near Seattle, which opened in 2001[SUP][107][/SUP] and awarded its first 8 Bachelor of Arts degrees in Astrological Studies in 2004.[SUP][108][/SUP] However, unless they are completing a course of study, students attending Kepler College after March 9, 2010,[SUP][109][/SUP] are not awarded degrees but certificates of completion of a course of study.[SUP][110][/SUP] The degrees granted by Kepler are not recognized by national or regional accrediting agencies.[SUP][111][/SUP] Other astrological organizations offer study programs and correspondence courses to certify astrologers.
[h=3][edit]United Kingdom[/h]In the United Kingdom, astrological education is offered at a number of institutions, some offering a diploma upon completion of the course and an examination. In addition, the University of Wales Trinity Saint David at Lampeter offers an MA in Cultural Astronomy and Astrology.[SUP][112][/SUP]
[h=3][edit]India[/h]In February, 2001, vedic astrology, Jyotish Vigyan, was introduced into the curriculum of Indian universities. Undergraduate (called "graduate" in India) post-graduate and research courses of study were established. "Beneficiaries of these courses would be students, teachers, professionals from modern streams like doctors, architects, marketing, financial, economic and political analysts, etc."[SUP][37][/SUP] In April 2001 the Andhra Pradesh High Court declined to consider a petition to overturn the curriculum guideline on the ground that astrology was a pseudoscience, a decision affirmed by the Supreme Court in 2004 which declined as a matter of law to interfere with educational policy. The court noted that astrology studies were optional and that courses in astrology were offered by institutions of higher education in other countries.[SUP][113]

Astrology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/SUP]

 

[Yamaka]

Regarding freedom part, I agree. Does not follow he can say whatever comes to his mind. Topic of his talk was 'sceptic scientist'; what scientific method he has used to evaluate astrology. Perhaps he is parroting other 'sceptic scientists'. He is fully informed in his chosen discipline in which he has spent a lifetime. He may also have a lurking fear that if he says anything in favour of astrology, he will be ostracized by the select sceptic scientific community.

Our scientists in august institutions like atomic energy do select auspicious time and do pujas to start a project or launch a reactor. This act does not make them a lesser scientist.

Venkataraman can be called a true scientist if, in his speech, called for an evaluation of astrology on parameters he considers important, instead of resorting to 'unscientific' labeling.

Dr. RV did a real service to the younger generation: Calling Astrology what really it is.. it is some form of Art, and definitely not a Scientific Discipline..

To upgrade Astrology to the level of Science, the Believers must first understand the PROCESS of Scientific Inquiry which is very rigorous:

It needs -

A viable scientifically-sound hypothesis
Experimental Design which is reasonable & agreeable to most peers
Results
Reproduction of the Results by Independent Labs anywhere in the world
Discussion

Peers must openly critique the Results & Discussion, and the predictability of the current Results.

Can Astrology survive all these steps?

No; Never.

Thus, the Believers must be happy with their Art of Astrology, and not to move up the ladder of Science and its Recognition.

Thank you, Dr. RV for keeping Astrology where it belongs: A simple Art, an Ancient Art of India, although I call it a Voodoo Art! LOL.. or ROFL.

 

[ShivKC]

Folks,

Yes, please respond to Sri Yamaka's posting.

My issue is not whether astrology is valid or not. We all have different perceptions and opinions and that is okay.

But when a person calls an age old discipline that has been accepted within the framework of logic that has been developed within our tradition as 'fake', without any studied facts behind it, what one would call that? Opinion or Fact?

I do not care whether a Nobel Laureate or Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu makes this statement. It is an opinion, based on one's belief and nothing more. Is this the way Science works?

My issue is not about whether astrology is valid or not. It is about folks without any knowledge about the discipline calling it names, without understanding one whit of the discipline, judging that it is 'fake'. They say this and insist that the 'believers' need to prove that it is not fake! Did they insist that a culture that brushed their teeth with neem twigs prove that it was scientific? I do not get the logic. I thought when one calls something 'bunk, superstitious or fake' would have enough research material to back up what they are saying.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Yams, happy new year.. btw, just curious, do you believe that the year started only on 1st Jan

though i am yet to get convinced about believing astrology, i have to share few counters in line with KRS point and fixing the burden of proof.

if i say, astrology is just another form of study which deals with the relationship between astronomical phenomena and the events in this human world. now, you may out rightly reject this.

but if we look around 4K yrs ago, astrology (stars & plant position) was used as a tool predict seasons/weather, ie, relating terrestrial events from celestial observation. now you may agree here with the relationship, with your scientific bend of mind, cos 400 years ago, with the invention of gravity, science proved the correlation of tides&moons position. interestingly, astrology found this empirical relationship 5000 years ago.

from predicting seasons, it has advanced to society events. people predicted heavy rain and flooding and astrologically presented it as 'disaster'. its again scientific.

further down, it was used to predict about village events, and individuals fate.. if you go through the sequence, there could be a relation ship, but not proven yet, statistically.
?
is there any scientific study, which proves that there is no relationship between astral movements and human events? if so, im with you. till such time, both sides dont have the right to reject it totally.

 

[renuka]

Its like this..since I am a doctor I normally "dare" open my mouth about my field that too what is within my means as a GP.

I might know a little about my AC in my room here and how to clean the filter,to be aware when the compressor is not functioning,to be aware of any blockage and also be aware of gas leaks that cause condensation etc.

More than that I leave it to the experts and let them deal with it.I might ask the service men a few questions in a "I dont know can you tell me tone" to make him feel that he is in charge and I am not finding fault with him.

If what he says sounds out of this world..I will tell my famous escape line and tell"I will discuss with my husband and get back to you"..

Ok what I am trying to say in the AC story is I usually do not open my mouth too wide if its not my field.

Thats why I am surprised why some individuals talk so so confidently in fields which are not theirs.

Like there are some doctors who out right tell patients to never to take Ayurvedic medications and also Ayurvedic practitioners who out right tell patients not to take mainstream medical medication.

How are they both so sure they are right?

If I have a patient telling me that he/she is on this herbal therapy and whether its Ok..1st I tell them that my knowledge is limited in that field but I will look it up to see how it works and any potential interaction with mainstream medication he is on..If i dont see a problem..I tell them to go ahead.If there is a problem then I tell them to stop.


I guess before we can come to any conclusion we need to have solid evidence that we are right.
Cos if we dont have evidence that we are right, someone else also doesnt need evidence that he is right.

So if some one says astrology is fake there will be enough people saying that astrology is true.

I feel a better statement from a scientists would have been.."Astrology is not my field..as a man of Modern Science I have been trained to think on lines of evidence based which is not always met in Astrology and Homeopathy.
So it will be better if we make decisions for our health and well being with a rational scientific approach and for those who still hold on to Astrology and Homeopathy you may use it as a guide and view it as a "differential diagnosis" of situations in life"

Dont you think a bit of diplomacy and playing safe goes a long way..we just cant be too sure that we are 100% right!!

 

[S.Ramanathan]

I agree with renuka mom's view of "Astrology is not fake but may be astrologers can make mistakes".
Astrology is a science and to some extent involves mathematical calculations. There are lot of historical events to support this.

Homeopathy is a medical sciece and belief in the same is one part.


S. Ramanathan

 

[sarang]

[h=1][FONT=arial, sans-serif]The indian court has allowed astrology to compete and thrive on its own merit. Why are the 'no sayers' shouting? Nobody is forcing them to consult astrologers, real or fake, for ascertaining or modifying their fortunes. It is nothing but arrogance on their part to deride those who believe. They should stop subscribing to newspapers and magazines which publish forecasts.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, sans-serif]Indian court considers astrology a science[/FONT][/h]17:30 4 February 2011
Even so, the news that on February 3, the Bombay High Court threw out a case questioning the validity of astrology and related practices such as reiki, feng shui, and tarot cards, is worrying.

So far as prayer related to astrology is concerned, the Supreme Court has already considered the issue and ruled that astrology is a science. The Court had in 2004 also directed the universities to consider if astrology science can be added to the syllabus. The decision of the apex court is binding on this court.


Short Sharp Science: Indian court considers astrology a science

 

[zebra16]

Dear Shri KRS, you wanted special treatment for Vedic astrology when you said, "especially Vedic Astrology". This reveals a special bias for Vedic stuff. This is the basis for my comment on Brahminism mindset.

Why does Vedic astrology deserve this "especially" that is not given to Kili Joshyam or chozi prasnam, or seance? If we are to apply the standard you are advocating, -- i.e. it is the responsibility of the skeptic to "understand, measure, and validate or invalidate" on even claims scientists reject, then kili joshyam, palmistry and a whole host of other silly practices also deserve the level of acceptance as Vedic Astrology.

I would like to come in here. There is no such thing as "vedic astrology". There are no grahas like budha, shukra/ankaraka/sani etc. nor are there any ascendants like mesha, vrishabha etc. in vedas. To the best of my knowledge jyotishm covers only three luminaries, sun, moon and stars. Lord Krishna in BG advises Arjuna to fight the war and does not say as per His (krishna's) jyotishm that Arjuna is bound to win the war after going through the motions. Krishna keeps the outcome of the Mahabharata open, saying if Arjuna is killed he will get swargam and if he wins he gets back the kingdom. There is no phalita-jyotishm either in the vedas or in the BG. Vedic astrology is simply a misnomer

after all this practice of human sacrifice is also Vedic, both sides performed it before the Mahabaratha Yuddam started.

I think you are on a weak wicket regarding this statement. Notwithstanding nara-medha mantras in vedas, there is no indication that any human being was ever sacrificed. This is the opinion of all the indologists etc. who have thread-bare analysed the nara medha sections in vedas. In fact the Sunashepha episode strongly supports the theory that the human victim was let off.

Still, as a skeptic I am willing to keep my mind open and be ready to be convinced of its authenticity. This is the best the believers have a right to expect. They have no right to demand that the skeptics must disprove or else accept it may be valid. Such expectation is irrational.

I do not know how it would be scientific. Unless the cause and effect relationship is established, how can astrology be accepted as science? Even if stock markets have tanked 100 out of 100 times in the past when mercury turned retrograde, such instances will remain just that.... co-incidences. There is no reason for the same thing to happen at the 101st time. However, if the markets tank inspite of pep talk by FED, market will seriously consider the speech of Ben Bernanke the next time, because the actions of FED does affect the monetary policy and finances.

Regards,

 

[sarang]

nazi scientists branded Einstein's theories as Jewish physics

An intersting response from the editor of the astrological magazine on a report in 'the hindu', about the nobel laureate C V raman's opinion on astrology. See the reference how biographies are sanitized for public consumption.

'Approach astrology with an open mind'

Ms. Gayatri Devi Vasudev, Editor, The Astrological Magazine, Bangalore writes:
This refers to your Science Correspondent's report (April 19) about some scientists being unnecessarily worked up over Prof. Hari Gautam's statement that Sir C.V. Raman had referred to astrology as science and Prof. S. Ramaseshan, nephew of Sir C.V. Raman, saying that the Nobel laureate ``did not believe in astrology at all and considered it an irrational subject.'' I would like to issue a clarification on both points.
With due deference to Sir C.V. Raman's so-called lack of belief, one should differentiate opinions from facts. The scientist was entitled to his personal opinion on astrology or any other subject under the Sun and it is nobody's business. That Sir Raman did not believe in astrology, as claimed by his nephew, is no argument against it if he had not made a study of jyotisha systematically.
The nephew in question may have been a close associate but that does not necessarily imply that he was privy to every single personal detail of Sir Raman's private life. Nor can the nephew's statement that the scientist's ``biography published by the Indian Academy of Sciences clearly documented the fact that he was not at all superstitious and despised ritual'' be connected with astrology and its scientific nature. Almost everyone knows that biographies are many times sanitised versions of the lives of the men they seek to portray in a particular mould and therefore, many details that may not conform to the portrait they want to paint, are ruthlessly scissored.
Srinivasa Ramanujan's biography published in India has cleverly omitted mention of the mathematician's reverence for the Goddess of Namakkal how many of formulae were revealed to him by Her in his dreams. These details are recounted in detail in his biography published from England.
Likewise, Nehru's Letters to His Sister published by Faber and Faber, London, carries his clear instructions for getting Rajiv Gandhi's horoscope, taking extra care to emphasise that the war time difference should be noted. But this same book published by the Publications Division, Government of India, omits the letter dated 29-8-1944, in its anxiety to preserve Nehru's ``secular'' image.
It should interest your readers to learn that Mrs. C.V. Raman was a regular visitor of my own revered father, the late Dr. B.V. Raman, whose name today is synonymous with jyotisha or astrology not only in our own country but the world over, and would consult him on Sir Raman's chart on his behalf. I shall quote from Dr. B.V. Raman's autobiography ``My Experiences in Astrology'', page 315, published by UBS Publishers' Distributors Ltd. when he describes how the lady first came to him in the 1930s escorted by Mr. A.S.P. Ayyar, a well-known author, legal luminary and judicial figure of those days.
``I had a surprising experience one day at my office, which was situated a few yards away from my residence. A middle-aged person dressed in a three-piece suit, accompanied by an elderly lady walked into my room. The gentleman had a distinguished appearance. Introducing himself the gentleman said: `I am A.S.P. Ayyar, District Judge, Ramnad, and the lady is Mrs. Lokasundari Raman, wife of Sir C.V. Raman. I have heard much about you. I am also a reader of your magazine and some of the predictions you have made on the war are amazing. I had my own reservations about astrology and had often thought that it encouraged inactivity and sapped one's urge to work. The lady has some problems pertaining to her family.'
``Taking leave of me, he said, `Lokasundari Raman has some domestic problems and she will see you again shortly.'.''
It was not just once that the lady consulted Dr. B.V. Raman on the horoscope of her husband. The nephew should be a little more restrained and check on his facts in future.
The statement signed by the scientists demanding that the UGC Chairman must quit for his support to astrology smacks of authoritarianism and feudal thinking. My simple question, having been a student of jyotisha for nearly 30 years working under Dr. B.V. Raman, to these scientists is: have they studied astrology to be in a position to dismiss it? Why have they put their scientific temper to sleep in attacking astrology hysterically, behaving like fanatic fundamentalists instead of approaching the subject with an open mind? No one who has not studied astrology can arrogate to himself the role of judge, as these ``scientists'' of India are doing.
It is deplorable and pathetic that these men of ``science'' are behaving like the Nazi scientists who branded Einstein's theories as Jewish physics and made a bonfire of his papers simply because their experimental physics could not accommodate Einstein's theories of relativity. We can only paraphrase what Einstein said then: ``were astrology wrong, one professor would have been quite enough!''

The Hindu : 'Approach astrology with an open mind'

 

[prasad1]

Renuka: well said.
I am skeptic of astrology 100% but only 80% of Homeopathy. There are some personal experience of seeing positive results of Homeopathy.

I feel a better statement from a scientists would have been.."Astrology is not my field..as a man of Modern Science I have been trained to think on lines of evidence based which is not always met in Astrology and Homeopathy.
So it will be better if we make decisions for our health and well being with a rational scientific approach and for those who still hold on to Astrology and Homeopathy you may use it as a guide and view it as a "differential diagnosis" of situations in life"

Dont you think a bit of diplomacy and playing safe goes a long way..we just cant be too sure that we are 100% right!!

 

[Nara]

... There is no such thing as "vedic astrology".

Dear Narayan, as you may have already noticed, Shri KRS was the one to introduce this terminology, I was only responding that even so it cannot have special standing. If there is no such thing as Vedic Astrology, I have no problem. Hope this is clear.

I think you are on a weak wicket regarding this statement. Notwithstanding nara-medha mantras in vedas, there is no indication that any human being was ever sacrificed.

Whether they were let off or actually sacrificed, the point I was making is unaffected.

I do not know how it would be scientific. Unless the cause and effect relationship is established, how can astrology be accepted as science?

It could be scientific if it uses scientific process, cause and effect is not an absolute must. Not all scientific branches are exact sciences like physics, chemistry, etc. Social sciences are inexact sciences, but science nevertheless because the results are based on carefully controlled empirical studies that can be independently replicated and verified. In a randomized double-blind experimental study a reasonable cause-effect can also be inferred even if the nature of the cause and effect is not fully understood.

This is the crux of problem. It is not as though scientific tools are not available, yet, the believers insist that astrology (vedic or not) must not be criticized even though its practitioners can't be bothered to use these methodologies to not just establish its efficacy, but even attempt to improve the accuracy of their own craft.

One need not be an expert to be able to see a fake for what it is. In one field after another, when scientific methods are used we see that old practices that are fake are discredited and the ones that are valid are taken up and improved upon. The field of modern medicine is a case in point. I know next to nothing about medicine and have not studied it, yet I put my trust in it because they have adopted scientific methods in their practice. If I am to study a field before criticizing it, by the same token I have to study a field before accepting it, that is an unreasonable standard.

Astrologers (vedic or not) stick to age old practices, never even attempting to test its validity using scientific methods. Over the thousands of years of practice they have not even bothered to gather valid set of data that can be independently verified and studied. Given this pathetic track record, one does not have to study the intricacies of planet movements, sun and moon being among them, and their purported individualized effects on people, to see what astrology really is, a fake and bunk and part of the moodanambikkai repertoire.

This may sound harsh to believers, but all this can change if the proponents will only standup and make an attempt to establish its validity for their own sake, like so many people have done in so many other fields. But the Astrologers (vedic or not) just can't be bothered with it, they insist the skeptics must do it and that is an indication of the confidence they have about their own craft. This is the reason some of us think this is nothing more than snake oil.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yams, happy new year.. btw, just curious, do you believe that the year started only on 1st Jan

though i am yet to get convinced about believing astrology, i have to share few counters in line with KRS point and fixing the burden of proof.

if i say, astrology is just another form of study which deals with the relationship between astronomical phenomena and the events in this human world. now, you may out rightly reject this.

but if we look around 4K yrs ago, astrology (stars & plant position) was used as a tool predict seasons/weather, ie, relating terrestrial events from celestial observation. now you may agree here with the relationship, with your scientific bend of mind, cos 400 years ago, with the invention of gravity, science proved the correlation of tides&moons position. interestingly, astrology found this empirical relationship 5000 years ago.

from predicting seasons, it has advanced to society events. people predicted heavy rain and flooding and astrologically presented it as 'disaster'. its again scientific.

further down, it was used to predict about village events, and individuals fate.. if you go through the sequence, there could be a relation ship, but not proven yet, statistically.
?
is there any scientific study, which proves that there is no relationship between astral movements and human events? if so, im with you. till such time, both sides dont have the right to reject it totally.

Hello Shiv:

Happy New Year...

Here's what irks me most on this issue -

1. Dr. RV has done an excellent job of calling a Snake a Snake, an Art an Art and Science a Science.

2. Astrology as a form of an Art has flourished for thousands of years in India, as do Religions, Gods and Ghosts.. There are billion Believers there, so it can thrive for another 10,000 years, at least! LOL.

3. My personal view is life is born at conception, and babies are born after about 40 weeks in mothers' womb. There are millions of astral bodies revolving around in the sky.. How these bodies will affect or effect the activities of humans born on a particular time and date is beyond my comprehension.

But there are Believers who claim that FUTURE world activities, human activities, behaviors CAN be predicted by following the astral bodies.

There is no Scientific Rationale for this widely exaggerated claim. For any Scientific Study to start in earnest, Science demands a Rationale.

This is the fundamental part of the Scientific Process, which most of the Believers don't just understand.

4. Without understanding this, they have the audacity to call Dr. RV a "non-Scientist" or "Scientist" in quotes!!

I am telling everyone here this -

Dr. RV is a Nobelist, the Pride & Promise of India.. in your utter ignorance, please do not throw mud on his face.

For, he has done a wonderful job of telling the younger generation how to progress in the New World: Be Rational, and don't get sucked into all the Superstitions, Astrology, Homeopathy etc etc..

That's why I salute him, as a Fellow Scientist.

Cheers.



ps. Believers of God has a responsibility to prove HIS existence, as they do have the responsibility to prove the Scientific Rationale of Astrology. That has been position of Atheists in this Forum.

 

[swamynathan]

Ventraraman

I do not know in which descipline he got the the noble etc.,
Is he from India If yes he should have known the culture of our
great country. He should know if somebody point a finger at you
the other four fingers points towards you. One should not hurt
the feelings of others.
swamynathan]

 

[sarang]

[h=3]A Curious Case of Astrology and Two Nobel Laureates[/h]
"Mullis argues that there is no systematic and scientific study that has debunked astrology. He also warns against dismissing something without deeper research. One hopes that Sir Ramakrishnan could make a scientific case against astrology just as his fellow Nobel Laureate Mullis has made for it based on data and the criterion of falsifiability."

Kary Mullis is 1993 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, and author of “Dancing Naked in the Mind Field”.

"Mullis argues that there is no systematic and scientific study that has debunked astrology. He also warns against dismissing something without deeper research. One hopes that Sir Ramakrishnan could make a scientific case against astrology just as his fellow Nobel Laureate Mullis has made for it based on data and the criterion of falsifiability."

"If a scientist is concerned with eradicating superstition, he can surely target Christianity as his first candidate but such an endeavor will invoke the wrath of the church and the powerful establishments of the West and result in the scientist being branded an intolerant extremist. Astrology is an alluring soft target for one to show off one’s scientific temperament but one that yields to that temptation does so while turning a blind eye to statistical evidence."

http://astrologyandtwonobellaureate...rious-case-of-astrology-and-two-nobel_03.html

 

[subbudu1]

I think you are on a weak wicket regarding this statement. Notwithstanding nara-medha mantras in vedas, there is no indication that any human being was ever sacrificed. This is the opinion of all the indologists etc. who have thread-bare analysed the nara medha sections in vedas. In fact the Sunashepha episode strongly supports the theory that the human victim was let off.

,

Sunashepa episode actually indicates that there was a practice of human sacrifice. Vishwamitra actually intervenes here to stop the sacrifice of devarata( originally sunashepa) by adopting him That is what the story says as far as I know. It is perhaps the reason for the two gotras vishwamitra gotra with devarata in the link and kaushika gotra without devarata in the link. So I think this episode can be interpreted as evidence of human sacrifice

 

[sarma-61]

Sunashepa episode actually indicates that there was a practice of human sacrifice. Vishwamitra actually intervenes here to stop the sacrifice of devarata( originally sunashepa) by adopting him That is what the story says as far as I know. It is perhaps the reason for the two gotras vishwamitra gotra with devarata in the link and kaushika gotra without devarata in the link. So I think this episode can be interpreted as evidence of human sacrifice

Experts may be trying to hide some of the powerful vedic sacrifices by saying "no evidence" because it will look shameful for them to admit that our great ancestors practised human sacrifice for some very special purposes. The practice of ear-piercing of boys started just to prevent our boys from being sacrificed, because, even one such deformity will make the person unfit to be sacrificed. Just so that the pierced eye does not join, heal and the boy is mistakenly sacrificed, the ear-ring was compulsorily worn.

Our worthy ancestors would not have written the mantra and procedure for naramedha unless it was truth.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Thank you Iyyarooran for your reply. Needless to say we are not seeing eye-to-eye on this matter. Be that as it may, I just can't accept the above comment, they are not on the same footing, not at all. One is gaana mayil and the other is vaan kozi .

Cheers!

May I say the comparison is wrong. Either of the subjects can become either of the compared two. For an ordinary man, both the subjects become a mirage and at times both appear to be a gaana mayil. I do not hate vaan kozhi.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Astrology and its believers will survive, so also others. I doubt astrology itself is against science. It is not challenging science. Both are different from each other. There is an urge in every man to become god and knower of all things. He should himself try and achieve it instead of expecting somebody to give them on a platter. There are thousands of fake doctors (and may be fake scientists, too) and there are as many fake astrologers. Any idea how many doctors and other professionals in all fields might have told 'sorry' to others who questioned them. Anybody can thrash astrology because the people who sprouted the knowledge are not there. To believe or not to believe is your choice and why people make campaign as if they are paid for it. You do not see the effects emanating from planets. But they accept the planets are there. Sun gives life and moon tends tides in ocean. I ask any reader to find out from his own source the bad patches of his life and whether Saturn effect was there. The difference of effects could be of kinds or degrees. If somebody finds that he had eventless life, he must be a superman or man from outer splace.

 

[sarang]

Astrologers are like doctors.

My advice to those who seek forecasts, is to get the whole thing written down by the astrologer, including the rules he has followed to come to the conclusions. We had a family astrologer, (a school head master and not a fee charging professional) who did all the calculations in a notebook, and write the predictions from all angles - rasi, amsa, gochara etc.. For not so pleasant, contradictory predictions he suggested simple pariharam - mantra recitation, puja etc. that do not cost much.

My experience with doctors is - family physicians are more open and communicative, whereas specialists demand many tests to be conducted and are evasive in their replies regarding diagnosis, and often do not accept test results/ diagnosis from other doctors.

Both medical and astrology are not exact sciences and different conclusions can be drawn from the same data depending on the weightage given to the symptoms. Variables are so many and interdependent, and a certain degree of intuition or 'feel' is necessary. When the pressure to make money is the dominant factor, mental faculties take a back seat.

My engineering background taught me, for problem solving, to write down all possible causes and possible solutions, and then apply rules and weight.

Recently, for her knee pain, my wife had to spend Rs. 40,000 for all the xray, scan, blood tests and medicine - final diagnosis - nothing wrong. I got a cold stare from the hospital ceo for suggesting that the hospital can start a new practice of refunding 50% of test charges if test results are negative.

 

[kannanpadmanabhan]

Having followed the discussions on merits of astrology in this thread, I would like to draw a parallel.
In stock markets all over the world, you come across predictions about trends in stock prices often. Sometimes predictions deal with general movement of the whole market while other times you come across predictions for specific stocks also. Everyday a huge amount of time on business TV channels like CNBC, Bloomberg, ET Today etc is devoted to such analyst-discussions and predictions.
Again some predictions are for short term, some are for medium term and others for long term.
In particular, one comes across short term and medium predictions on the basis of what is called “technical analysis” or “chart-based trend analysis”
There are thousands of analysts who keep giving their forecasts for numerous stocks based on technical position of the stock in the past which is used as basis to forecast short term or medium term prices. There are also a lot of academic qualifications which are in the market to qualify one as an analyst.
To many a person, it would seem ridiculous to believe that such forecasting based on charts and technical analysis is sensible at all ! If one starts mapping the actual performance vis-à-vis technical analyst predictions over a reasonable period of time for many stocks one will find that the predictions failed miserably.
Some predictions might have turned OK but then whether it is due to the merit of the technical forecast or just the statistical probability that if you make 10 statements, 2 or 3 may always be correct- one can always debate. Often you also hear that the forecasting did not turn right because there were other intervening factors. Still nobody starts debating whether the method of technical forecasting is based on the rigorous methodologies of science or whether the derivations of analysis are scientifically arrived at.
Why technical chart analysis is still taken seriously is because the so-called techniques of such forecasting are the product of diligent study of stock movements in different situations over a long period and certain cause-effect correlations have been propounded .
Astrology in its pure form should also be put on the same footing as the technical chart forecasting. Study of astrological patterns have been studied over centuries and correlations have been watched over generations and generations in the past. The time-tested principles are used to make astrological predictions.
I would be happy if there is a way to obtain the expert opinion of Venki on such technical forecasting of stock market also and I would like his opinion to be publicized. If he still supports the same, we would like to know how it is different from astrology which he so easily dismisses.
One should also think of asking Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan authorities to request Venki to respond as above since I think he made his attack on astrology at one of their forums

 

[Nara]

Astrologers are like doctors.

My dear brother sarang, this is a big insult to doctors. Doctors and others working in the field of medicine have taken the trouble of studying, researching, and advancing their field by getting rid of useless/harmful practices and inventing new remedies to cure deceases, prolong life, improve quality of life, and offer palliative care for those afflicted with terminal deceases. They have traveled to war torn areas, decease stricken regions, places struck by natural disasters for the only purpose of helping countless millions in a myriad of ways, risking their own lives.

Contrast these with what the Astrologers do. To equate the two is the best way to inflict the worst insult possible upon the doctors.

very sad ...

 

[renuka]

Astrologers are like doctors.

My advice to those who seek forecasts, is to get the whole thing written down by the astrologer, including the rules he has followed to come to the conclusions. We had a family astrologer, (a school head master and not a fee charging professional) who did all the calculations in a notebook, and write the predictions from all angles - rasi, amsa, gochara etc.. For not so pleasant, contradictory predictions he suggested simple pariharam - mantra recitation, puja etc. that do not cost much.

My experience with doctors is - family physicians are more open and communicative, whereas specialists demand many tests to be conducted and are evasive in their replies regarding diagnosis, and often do not accept test results/ diagnosis from other doctors.

Both medical and astrology are not exact sciences and different conclusions can be drawn from the same data depending on the weightage given to the symptoms. Variables are so many and interdependent, and a certain degree of intuition or 'feel' is necessary. When the pressure to make money is the dominant factor, mental faculties take a back seat.

My engineering background taught me, for problem solving, to write down all possible causes and possible solutions, and then apply rules and weight.

Recently, for her knee pain, my wife had to spend Rs. 40,000 for all the xray, scan, blood tests and medicine - final diagnosis - nothing wrong. I got a cold stare from the hospital ceo for suggesting that the hospital can start a new practice of refunding 50% of test charges if test results are negative.

Dear Sarang,

what you say is mostly true.believe me..as a doctor i know what goes on in the medical field these days.
money is the new mantra even in the medical field and intellect is totally blinded.
you have analyzed the situation well.