War cry in holy cities A storm is gathering along the banks of river Ganges.

[sarang]

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Varna and jati identity is a basic unalterable tenet of sanatana dharma. No guru or acharya or religious guides have rejected it. Caste discrimination and perceived or real ill treatment is objectionable. People from all jatis have attained eminence in all fields - spiritual, governing, trade, services, why in all fields. The british have created and nurtured inter and intra jati conflicts and poisoned generations of brahmins and other varnas. Institutions of varna and jati will survive and prosper, as more and more people clear their minds of second hand knowledge and get direct exposure to traditional culture and scriptures and literature.

 

[renuka]

Some debatable facts here and there but overall makes a good read and good message for people to Focus on God alone..worth a read.


Let Sai Baba controversy strengthen the movement for Worship of God alone!

June 25, 2014

By Dr Javed Jamil

Shirdi’s Sai Baba has undoubtedly outdone all other Hindu saints in terms of growing popularity among Hindus in the last century. While there is little doubt that he was a Muslim Sufi saint with unadulterated devotion to one “MaaliK”, his Hindu devotees outnumber Muslims by a huge margin. This is of course due to the fact that Baba loved local Hindu population and helped them in getting rid of their distresses.

From Muslim point of view, it is indeed unfortunate that people started worshipping a saint whose slogan was “Sab ka Maalik Aik” (The Lord of All is One), which is almost exactly what La Ilaha Illallah(There is no god except One GOD) implies. The man who wanted everybody to worship one Maalik, even if through the help of a Murshid (Teacher) could not have liked temples being built in his name, his statues erected and worshipped by millions. He might have wished instead that all these disciples of him would have recognized God, the Lord of the World who is also the Lord of those who do not believe in Him and would have recognized His Last Scripture as the Final source of guidance. But they chose to worship him instead. This would surely be paining the Soul of The Baba.

But if the Shankaracharya of Dwarka has chosen to publicly denounce the devotion of Baba’s devotees, it smacks of a feeling of aversion towards Islam and Muslims and a sense of growing insecurity in theological terms. In all probability, the Shankaracharya does not know that Islam does not claim its origin in Qur’an and Muhammad (PBUH) that were only the Last Scripture and Last Prophet in a series of a large number of scriptures (Suhuf and Kutub) and God-sent Ambassadors. Qur’an talks of God’s Messengers in every region of the world, and many Islamic scholars talk fondly of Hindu figures like Ram and Krishna because they think they might well have been part of the early history of Islam. (Nothing can be said with certainty though.)

When after studying Bible, I read Valmiki Ramayana about 20 years back, I was struck with amazement finding that the story of Ram, as described by Valmiki has close similarities with the history of Hadhrat Ibrahim described in Old Testament Abram was his original name in Bible meaning Father of the Nation which later became Abraham, the Father of Nations. When he left Ur, his native place, and moved to the desert of Egypt, His wife Sara (like Sita) was kidnapped by the Firaun of that time (Ravan) who later released her, as he got convinced about her extraordinary character. Abram later married Hegira and banished her like Sita was banished. While Valmiki Ramayana describes only one wife of Rama and ascribes apharan and nishkaasan to her unlike in Bible where these two events related to his two wives, several other Ram Kathas describe more than one wife of Ram.

Abraham too had two sons Ishmael and Isaac, like Luv and Kush, and they also were master archers. Bharat Jhunjhunwala, well-known columnist, is now busy compiling a full book on the similarities between Ibrahim (RA) and Ram. Valmiki Ramyana talks of one single God and speaks about Pralay (Qayamat). In one of the Hindu scriptures,

I also found a story almost similar to Hadhrat Lut (AS) whose people had become sexually corrupt and were destroyed through raining of stones from the sky. It isalso amzing that no group of Indians traces their ancestry to Rama, and nothing is known in Hindu scriptures about the later life of Luv and Kush and their progeny.The Shankaracharya is perhaps also not aware of the fact that Islam literally means Shanti (Peace), and is defined as Submission to God (Samarpan to Parmeshwar). Under the circumstances it would have been better if the Shankaracharya had asked the Hindus and Muslims to study each other’s scriptures and ultimately decide to worship One God. No other figure, Devtaa, Avataar or Paighambar deserves worship because God alone created the universe and controls it.

The paighambars, avatars and gurus are only to be revered as they taught about God.It will be better if the devotees of Shirdi’s Sai Baba take the controversy in a positive way, and instead of worshipping the Baba, learn to worship the Eik Maalik, the Baba worshipped.
This would please the soul of Baba and the devotees will surely move towards the right destination.

Hopefully the controversy will give boost to the aikeshwarvaad in India.The Shankaracharya interestingly made a highly relevant point in a debate on a TV channel last evening, which gave strength to my efforts of bringing all religions together including Hinduism and Islam against the social vices and the forces that are promoting them. He spoke with considerable hatred about alcohol and its role in being responsible for the crimes including crimes against women.

Let Shankaracharyas and Ulama unite to make India a cleaner, purer and healthier world and present their unity as a model to the whole world, which needs resuscitation of religion and the moral and family values that religions prescribe. This will also be a big step towards communal amity in India. If Hinduism and Islam can work together for the common benefit of mankind, Buddhism, Christianity and other religions will also not remain behind in joining them.———



* Dr Javed Jamil is a thinker and writer with over a dozen books including his latest, “Muslims Most Civilised, Yet Not Enough” and “Muslim Vision of Secular India: Destination & Road-map”. Other works include “The Devil of Economic Fundamentalism”, “The Essence of the Divine Verses”, “The Killer Sex”, “Islam means Peace” and “Rediscovering the Universe”. He can be contacted at: [email protected] or 91-8130340339.

 

[Vaagmi]

Hope Dr Renu will answer your questions! I do want to take the focus away from that

Having said that where is it written in what is called Hindu mode of worship that one has to be absolutely inches from the deity.

North Indians love to touch the Murthis and there are temples that cater to them. Even in Sai Baba temples people can touch and feel the deity form.

In South India we were taught to do formal Namaskaram outside the Dwajashambam . It is not as if the physical distance is going to dilute the intended effect of the prostration.

Being a priest is not such a big deal and there are priests of all kinds in India in temples visited by all groups of people including the so called birth based brahmins. I gave an example of what I was told as our Kula Daivam!

I know my posts are not tasteful on this topic to Dr Renu but it seems there are some unresolved issues based on personal experience that tends to come up and now. It would be far easier to have discussions on what those issues are. I am not sure if this medium can help have such a discussion

tksji,

If you are worshipping the God in a temple, you have to follow the rules of Agama according which the temple is built. If you are worshipping at home like I do, you can do it by touching the murthis and the Salagrama silas, bathing them wiping them etc., If you are worshipping the God residing in your mind just close your eyes and do the Dhyana Yoga for as long as you want. I think we have discussed this earlier once when I was mentioning about the archavatara, antaryami etc., The rules are there in the agama sastras.

While the north Indian temples have undergone a lot of changes due to the prolonged influence of invaders belonging to other religions, in South we still maintain the procedures as ordained in the agamas. In Kashi you can touch the Vishwanath Shiv Ling and do a bathing yourself. But in Rameshwaram or in Madurai you can not do it that way.

About Sai Baba I have already expressed my views in my post earlier in detail. I consider him not as God. He was a sidhdha purusha and that is all.

When I was studying comparative religion after my retirement, my Christianity teacher told in the class that Christians do not bother about what they put in-meaning what they eat-but bother more about what comes out from their mind and mouth. We hindus do believe that what goes in profoundly affects what comes out. So Agamas stipulate that the Murthy can be touched only by those who follow a certain discipline. Even in my home my relatives - wife, children etc.,-keep a respectable distance from me physically until I finish the nitya Aradhana in the morning. That is a value built into the people.

Hope I have clarified the point raised by you.

 

[Vaagmi]

Please define/elaborate "simple folks" and "never really feel totally welcomed in worship" and "by virtue of birth they could be denied certain aspects of the Hindu religion". I might have understood wrongly.

I am sure you are aware how certain Middle Castes oppose Dalits in some temples in Tamil Nadu.I think Vanniyars are notorious for ill treating Dalits and no one opposes that...I was always hoping that the learned Brahmanas could at least teach the Middles castes that ill treatment of Dalits and not allowing Dalits in the temple is not what Hinduism has prescribed but sadly even the Brahmanas remain silent..may be out of fear?? I dont know..may be you can explain to me the village scenario in India.If the Brahamana who is supposed to be Jnana Bodhaka fears the middle castes..then where does a Dalit stand?
So in the temples of Shiridi Sai..no middle caste can wag his/her tail and treat the Dalits badly.Castes that are higher up in the food chain might not really feel how a Dalit feels in a temple that opposes his very existence..so that is why I feel that temples that advocate unity and does not have discrimination should be allowed to thrive regardless if the patron saint was a Muslim or a Hindu or an Atheist.

I generally discount the anecdotes part of religious literature because they are mostly out put from a fertile imagination.

Exactly!

I take only the "brahmins should have taught the middle castes, should have been janabodhaka", part of your answer because that is the only thing new in your response.

Brahmins have never been accepted as janabodhakas or people whose advice should be listened to except in our Itihasas. Otherwise the economically weak brahmin had always been a பிச்சைக்கு வந்த பிராமணன். The envy and intolerance for brahmins has been so strong that they are just ignored by others-at least in Tamilnadu. And Brahmins for their part just do not bother anymore about what is happening to the dalits at the hands of middle castes. They would like to just live their life for themselves fully. Let the dalits and other castes settle their scores among themselves without dragging brahmins into the conflicts. The brahmins stand is நரி வலம் போனாலென்ன இடம் போனாலென்ன. மேலே விழுந்து கடிக்காமலிருந்தால் போதும். These days we go to the temple finish our worship and return without bothering to see what others are doing there. Enough is enough.

 

[renuka]

I take only the "brahmins should have taught the middle castes, should have been janabodhaka", part of your answer because that is the only thing new in your response.

Brahmins have never been accepted as janabodhakas or people whose advice should be listened to except in our Itihasas. Otherwise the economically weak brahmin had always been a பிச்சைக்கு வந்த பிராமணன். The envy and intolerance for brahmins has been so strong that they are just ignored by others-at least in Tamilnadu. And Brahmins for their part just do not bother anymore about what is happening to the dalits at the hands of middle castes. They would like to just live their life for themselves fully. Let the dalits and other castes settle their scores among themselves without dragging brahmins into the conflicts. The brahmins stand is நரி வலம் போனாலென்ன இடம் போனாலென்ன. மேலே விழுந்து கடிக்காமலிருந்தால் போதும். These days we go to the temple finish our worship and return without bothering to see what others are doing there. Enough is enough.

Thank you for an honest response..really appreciate it ..at least you did not think I make sweeping statements.

Thank you once again cos you have explained the current day scenario.

 

[tks]

Well there you go again too..again and again you choose to describe my opinions as sweeping statements when the truth is I might not be aware of some incidents where a Brahmana had stood up for a Dalit..so the onus is on you to "enlighten" me about such incidences which I might not be aware of and using words like "sweeping statements" is actually a sort of accusing tone.

You see if someone is saying something that is not correct..usually I try to guide the person to the right answer without making assumptions that the person is making a sweeping statement.

Elsewhere in Forum..someone was explaining a Mantra which was not correct according to Sanskrit rules of Grammar..I explained politely the correct answer without making the other person feel small in anyway..this is what is called Tact in dealing with others.

So its not really fair that you keep using the word Sweeping Statements on what I write.

Let me give you an example ..if it was me I would have worded my post like this:

Dear So and So..I would like to kindly bring your attention that in the pasts there have been many Brahmanas who have stood up for Dalits..etc..I have provided the links for you to click on to read..may be you are under the impression that no one stood up for Dalits..so kindly read and share your opinion with me for further discussion.


You see that?? But you choose to keep saying Sweeping Statements non stop in a defensive manner as if I am moving around with a broom!LOL

Dr Renu

All forms of prejudices, discrimination and expression of such human weaknesses have their origin in generalizations.

Even the holocaust and genocide have roots in stereotyping and generalizations of Jews.

When the Hutus kill Tutsis and vice versa they do not see each other as people but representing a class with some prejudicial views about that class.

While the generalizations I may be pointing out in your posts are more benign compared to the examples above, they still form the basis for prejudice.

I like to be hard on the issues but not so on the people. Not withstanding what others feel about me - the poster with the nick tks - I have come to like people here even those that have called 'tks' names - I can only smile because it meant I must have written something to get a reaction.

In my professional life decades ago I took some courses which focused on human relations and prejudice. It was intense and ended up giving an insights into how we think thereby making us more mature hopefully.

You have a self image but your posts do not reflect that image consistently all the time. As a tit of tat you could say the same thing about me but that is not my point.

So let me continue being hard on the issue of generalization (aka prejudice you hold which may seem nonexistent to you).

In this post, you say the onus is on me to tell you about those few exception cases. I think that kind of thinking itself has serious issues.

Why should the onus is on me to correct your generalization? I am not representing any community here and I am not qualified to represent Brahmanas because I was born into a family of Brahmanas.

So by saying the onus is on me, you have in essence put me in a cage in your mind called "brahmanas" which means I have inherited various attributes from that generalization. You think therefore when I confront your posts I must have a narrow mind or changed or evolved etc

I grew up in Delhi and my parents provided tremendous flexibility during our childhood days. We were south indians at best and I was not aware of caste of most people I grew up with. During my IIT Kanpur days I knew people only as vegetarian and non veg students and nothing more.

I have been living for several decades in USA where people from all walks of life coexist and work together. I may be categorized as Asian American though I hardly know anything about the Japanese or Koreans though the system may lump me with Asians and Pacific Islanders.

Even within TB community here we hardly talk about caste. For example, I learnt that one of my close friend is actually born in an Iyengar family. It never came up in a discussion and it is actually just a trivia info at best.

My exposure to caste is only through the 'education' I received after I joined this forum. I was initially intrigued at the charges by the usual suspects then. I think many of these people who were spewing venom at any group including Brahmins have had personal issues.

So I am not representing Brahmanas to have the onus to inform and educate you anymore than any of the Brahmanas had the onus to change the caste related ignorance.

So my calling attention to your generalization is to ask you think about what you are writing and see if those are based on facts. You have complete freedom obviously to write anything like any of us provided they are within the forum rules. But if you care to live up to the self image you have about yourself, then research a bit whenever you make generalized statements in your posts. You are free to ignore this suggestion saying you have your own way of thinking.

I could have phrased the same message in a different manner like you suggested. I will try to do that in the future.

 

[Vaagmi]

Renukaji,

Please juxtapose your post #76 (Javed Jamil-a thinker we are told)) against my post # 41(an SV's view) and read them again together. That would reveal to you the basic difference between two diametrically opposite approaches to religion. Please read them together and come out with your views. I would just indicate what I have seen. One is a desire to swallow every other line of thought while the other is allowing every line of thought to have its place under the sun on the earth. Have fun. LOL.

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

Please juxtapose your post #76 (Javed Jamil-a thinker we are told)) against my post # 41(an SV's view) and read them again together. .

Yes! I did that..I found that both you and him are great thinkers..in fact I just emailed him praising his write up.

Even your post is excellent..great minds think alike..Dr Jamil and you.

I always found similarities between Islam and Vaishnavaism. Both subscribe to only One God and have a Founder.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

In Shankara Digvijaya Adi Shnakara Himself is supposed to be a Lord Shiva incarnate..why isnt the present day Shankaracharya objecting to that? That a human is being called a Lord Shiva incarnate?

Who said Adi Shankara was an incarnation of Lord Shiva?

He belonged to Nambhoodri Sect. Are Nambhoodris Saivites? I think it is a mis-conception and totally baseless.

If he was an incarnation of Lord Shiva, why did he write a song about Krishna, a human being, (Bhaja Govindam) and his successors are only talking about Vaishnavite works (Ramayana, Mahabharatha, Gita, Tiruppavai etc.)? Added to this, Jayendra Saraswathi generally completes his talk by saying Narayana, Narayana.

It might have been created by Mutts to survive at the time of Chola and Pandiya rulers.

 

[renuka]

Who said Adi Shankara was an incarnation of Lord Shiva?

He belonged to Nambhoodri Sect. Are Nambhoodris Saivites? I think it is a mis-conception and totally baseless.

If he was an incarnation of Lord Shiva, why did he write a song about Krishna, a human being, (Bhaja Govindam) and his successors are only talking about Vaishnavite works (Ramayana, Mahabharatha, Gita, Tiruppavai etc.)? Added to this, Jayendra Saraswathi generally completes his talk by saying Narayana, Narayana.

It might have been created by Mutts to survive at the time of Chola and Pandiya rulers.

Dear Sir,

It is written in Shankara Digvijaya by Ramakrishna Ashram..may be you can ask them!

Its also given that Kumarilla Bhatta was the incarnation of Lord Kartikeya and since He took birth to propagate the Karma Khanda Brahma portion of the Vedas He was known as Subrahmanya(Promoter of Brahma portion of the Vedas)

BTW even if you think that is not true but you cant speak on behalf of Lord Shiva saying that" If he was an incarnation of Lord Shiva, why did he write a song about Krishna"

Do you really think Lord Shiva thinks like you?LOL

 

[natkaushik]

It is objectionable to attach views of non-hindus like Javed Jamil, in this thread. As a counter I can also quote Geert Wilders, a rabble rouser of Netherlands. Kindly keep this discussion solely Hindu and brahmin.If you take a head-count, I wager that the majority of TBs finding fault with the statement of his Holiness would be Tamil Iyers.Tamil Iyers have lost two precious things in the past 50 years viz-Guru Bhakthi and Tamil mastery.Contrast this with Iyengars, all aspects of whose lives, is centred around their Mutt and the Acharya.They use tamil Pasurams in praise of God.The Majority of Iyers, on the other hand, have no respect for Kanchi or any other Mutt.They do not know Thevaram, tiruvachagam etc.No wonder many of them are joining the chorus against their own Acharya. Fortunately, the younger generations have more pride in their language and religion and wil surely rejuvenate our heritage.
குருவே சரணம்
अखण्डमण्डलाकारं व्याप्तं येन चराचरम् ।
तत्पदं दर्शितं येन तस्मै श्रीगुरवे नमः ॥

Salutation to the noble Guru,, who has made it possible to realise the state which pervades the entire cosmos, everything animate and inanimate.

 

[renuka]

It is objectionable to attach views of non-hindus like Javed Jamil, in this thread.. Kindly keep this discussion solely Hindu and brahmin..

I guess this is not in your hands..cos you see the main reason why Shankaracharya is objecting to Shiridi Sai Baba worship is becos he thinks Baba is a Muslim so the whole topic is about why a Hindu should not worship a human being who was thought to be a Muslim.

I feel Dr Javed Jamil gave a fairly good opinion and we should be open minded enough not to become defensive for nothing at all.

BTW I dont think one can make others only stick to Hindu based discussions..unless moderator makes a new rule.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Sir,

It is written in Shankara Digvijaya by Ramakrishna Ashram..may be you can ask them!

Its also given that Kumarilla Bhatta was the incarnation of Lord Kartikeya and since He took birth to propagate the Karma Khanda Brahma portion of the Vedas He was known as Subrahmanya(Promoter of Brahma portion of the Vedas)

BTW even if you think that is not true but you cant speak on behalf of Lord Shiva saying that" If he was an incarnation of Lord Shiva, why did he write a song about Krishna"

Do you really think Lord Shiva thinks like you?LOL

We cannot say what God thinks. But human beings can think logically and come to a conclusion on such matters.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Yes! I did that..I found that both you and him are great thinkers..in fact I just emailed him praising his write up.

Even your post is excellent..great minds think alike..Dr Jamil and you.

I always found similarities between Islam and Vaishnavaism. Both subscribe to only One God and have a Founder.

Who is God in Vaishnavism - Vishnu, Rama, Krishna, Anjayena, Mahalakshmi, Sitha, Bama, Rukmini, Radha etc.

Does Islam accept and preach Avatars and Polytheism?

 

[sarang]

Enlightenment please. Who is the founder of vaishnavaism?

I always found similarities between Islam and Vaishnavaism. Both subscribe to only One God and have a Founder.

 

[renuka]

Enlightenment please. Who is the founder of vaishnavaism?

I think you already know the answer.

 

[renuka]

Dear Chandru,



One should read the works of Dr Javed Jamil to understand your question. His article the Living Miracle makes a good read.

 

[sarang]

I really don't know. Vyasa, narada, Krishna are all vaishnavites. The matham is older. So, who, as you claim, is the founder.

I think you already know the answer.

 

[Vaagmi]

Sarangji,

Better give up. And read further:

Vaagmi: Renuka, the president of US, this morning said that a nuclear device will be released for free fall 4000 feet above an enemy country in the Persian gulf.

Sarangji: When did Obama resign and when did Renuka become the president of US?

Vaagmi: I am sure You know that.

Sarangji: No. I do not know please enlighten me. Please.

Vaagmi: You know it. I know that you know it and that is final. Take it or leave it.


LOL

 

[renuka]

I really don't know. Vyasa, narada, Krishna are all vaishnavites. The matham is older. So, who, as you claim, is the founder.

Sarang ji..I know you know..

 

[Vaagmi]

Renukaji,

Yes! I did that..I found that both you and him are great thinkers..in fact I just emailed him praising his write up.

That was a left handed compliment.

Even your post is excellent..great minds think alike..Dr Jamil and you.

There was condescension dripping in that.

I always found similarities between Islam and Vaishnavaism. Both subscribe to only One God and have a Founder.

After KV you have started posting inanities. As Sarangji has repeatedly asked you please tell us all who is the founder of Vaishnavism. This is another bloomer like Nammazhwar was a saivite savant or that vaishnavites do not accept samasrayanam.

I am serious. If you want I can send you the full reference to join the Vaishnavism course by distant mode with either Madras University or Sastra University. You need not become a vaishnavite. At least you can learn about vaishnavism. It is a comprehensive course which teaches about the history of Vaishnavism, it's basic tenets and philosophical aspects, its hagiography, its savants, its roots in Vedas/upanishads etc., It will be helpful.

 

[Vaagmi]

Renukaji,

Your post #85:

Its also given that Kumarilla Bhatta was the incarnation of Lord Kartikeya and since He took birth to propagate the Karma Khanda Brahma portion of the Vedas He was known as Subrahmanya(Promoter of Brahma portion of the Vedas)

Please check up whether you have correctly reproduced the original. Karma khanda is not about brahmam. It is about the elaborate rituals starting from the size of the bricks to be used for building the kunda, the number of bricks to be used, the geometry of the kunda etc., to the elaborate rituals to be followed like who should sit where and what are the responsibilities assigned to the different conductors of the uajna etc., Brahmam is spoken of in the Veda siras/upanishad/jnana khanda.

 

[renuka]

I am serious. If you want I can send you the full reference to join the Vaishnavism course by distant mode with either Madras University or Sastra University. You need not become a vaishnavite. At least you can learn about vaishnavism. It is a comprehensive course which teaches about the history of Vaishnavism, it's basic tenets and philosophical aspects, its hagiography, its savants, its roots in Vedas/upanishads etc., It will be helpful.

No thanks Vaagmi Ji,

Nahi Nahi Rakshatin Dukren Karane..why do I need to know the details on why डु and ञ् are इत् संज्ञ and तस्य लोपः when all I need to say is Narayana Narayana?

 

[renuka]

Renukaji,

Your post #85:



Please check up whether you have correctly reproduced the original.

Will do..as far as I know that is what I read..anyway when I get time I will check up..need to search for the Digvijaya book at home.Brahma portion as far as I know is also known as the Brahmanya portion.

 

[renuka]

Dear Vaagmi Ji,

Till I look it up for now let me just paste this:

The uddhAra of three kANDas (karma, upAsanA and jnAna) of the veda results in the uddhAra of the dvijas and the uddhAra of the dvijas in turn brings about the uddhAra of the entire world as the dvijas form the backbone of the varNAshrama system. It was for the uddhAra of this vaidika dharma that brahmaNya incarnated as kumArila bhaTTapAda. For the uddhAra of upAsanA kANDa, mahAviShNu and AdisheSha had already incarnated as saMkarShaNa and patanjali. mahAdeva himself would later incarnate as shankara for the uddhAra of the final and liberating jnAna kANDa. The responsibility of uddhAra of the first and the most important karma kANDa was given to Lord brahmaNya who incarnated as kumArila, resembling the moon that originated as the essence of jaiminIya mahArNava. As brAhmaNya is firmly based on the karma kANDa, it was kumArila who can be credited as rejuvenating brAhmaNya and this earned him the title su-brahmaNya:

http://www.kamakotimandali.com/advaita/kumarila.html