What is really death?

[sravna]

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That is very misleading statement.
How long did the heart stop, starving the brain of the oxygenated blood is the criteria. As I have pointed out heart stoppes in so many cases, but the person is not dead. If stopping of heart was death, then there will be no need for pacemakers.

Some people's heart beat stops for several seconds, and they don't die. It is possible that the electrical system of the heart can not function properly and cause prolonged pauses in the conduction system of the heart. This is called Sick Sinus Syndrome. The person may feel very weak, fatigued, some may black out. They don't stop breathing. These people usually end up with a pacemaker!

People have been revived from things like cold water drowning after as much as an hour. You actually die when the brain is starved for oxygen long enough for it to begin the death process.


Look up "Clinical Death" and "Biological Death".

Just as in the case of brain death, stopping of heart beat should irreversible. That's when the heart totally fails. But even with irreversible brain death given our current knowledge, there would be signs of life.

The point is that it invariably needs a heart to show signs of life.

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Sravna, Greetings.

Thanks for this interesting conversation.

There are conditions that mimic signs and symptoms of death unless close medical examinations are conducted.

One such condition is Catalepsy - Catalepsy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Possibly one more condition can be - Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humankind is still researching the phenomenon 'death', in my opinion.

Cheers!

 

[tbs]

hi
simple death means....the air goes out of body....this human body is made of five elements.....so death means ..these

five elements not working/cessation.....out of five....pranah....the air is very important......if pranah goes away...then the body

became into pindam......

 

[sravna]

Sri. Sravna, Greetings.

Thanks for this interesting conversation.

There are conditions that mimic signs and symptoms of death unless close medical examinations are conducted.

One such condition is Catalepsy - Catalepsy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Possibly one more condition can be - Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Humankind is still researching the phenomenon 'death', in my opinion.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

Thank you. Yes Science still does not have a conclusive answer as to what is death. But in my view and probably others who hold a similar view, if death is the departing of soul from the body, death has to do with the irreversible cessation in the functioning of heart. The function of the heart is the most vital in sustaining life as even with brain death life can be sustained.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Raghy,

Thank you. Yes Science still does not have a conclusive answer as to what is death. But in my view and probably others who hold a similar view, if death is the departing of soul from the body, death has to do with the irreversible cessation in the functioning of heart. The function of the heart is the most vital in sustaining life as even with brain death life can be sustained.

Before we discuss what death is, we must have a clear idea as to what LIFE itself is; are we clear about this?

What kind of life is possible for a brain-dead person? I don't know. But those who know may kindly enlighten.

 

[Raghy]

Before we discuss what death is, we must have a clear idea as to what LIFE itself is; are we clear about this?

What kind of life is possible for a brain-dead person? I don't know. But those who know may kindly enlighten.

Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I have looked after elderly persons in the high care setting. Some of them had no mobility; no speech - just some noise; no recognition; no cognitive capacity. Just bed ridden. Would eat when the food is fed. That was all. These persons may not be brain dead. They may be understanding what they heard... I don't know. What was their quality of life? Don't think mmuch quality at all. Sometimes I used to talk to them... explain them it wouldn't be a bad idea to 'let go'.. I know most of them didn't want to go at all.

What is 'life'? We can only get subjective explanations about 'life' too. Those elderly persons in the almost vegetable state were considered to be 'living'. Really hard to define.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri. Sangom, Greetings.

I have looked after elderly persons in the high care setting. Some of them had no mobility; no speech - just some noise; no recognition; no cognitive capacity. Just bed ridden. Would eat when the food is fed. That was all. These persons may not be brain dead. They may be understanding what they heard... I don't know. What was their quality of life? Don't think mmuch quality at all. Sometimes I used to talk to them... explain them it wouldn't be a bad idea to 'let go'.. I know most of them didn't want to go at all.

What is 'life'? We can only get subjective explanations about 'life' too. Those elderly persons in the almost vegetable state were considered to be 'living'. Really hard to define.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

I have heard that brain death means some sort of vegetative existence for a limited period of time after which the death is complete. In view of the fact that heart transplant, kidney transplant, liver transplant etc., are now medical possibilities, it is not clear to me as to why Shri Sravna is steadfastly holding on to heart as the locus of human soul. If we go by our scriptures, we may find probably different statements. But I believe that soul is spread all over the body and for that to completely depart from a body under normal circumstances, it may take some time, even if the body has become a mere vegetable.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Shri Raghy,

I have heard that brain death means some sort of vegetative existence for a limited period of time after which the death is complete. In view of the fact that heart transplant, kidney transplant, liver transplant etc., are now medical possibilities, it is not clear to me as to why Shri Sravna is steadfastly holding on to heart as the locus of human soul. If we go by our scriptures, we may find probably different statements. But I believe that soul is spread all over the body and for that to completely depart from a body under normal circumstances, it may take some time, even if the body has become a mere vegetable.

Dear Sri. Sangom,

Personally I don't complicate myself with the term 'soul'. It may not exist. I just go by 'life energy'. Yes, it's spread all over the body.

Now, talking about life.. there was an interesting conversation with my wife. She said 'hydra' is immortal. They just don't die. Just like banyan trees.. those trees just drop roots and establish horizontally. Just the same tree can go on and on.. So, what happens to the soul in a hydra? they are immortal.. the soul would be trapped for ever! My wife says it's hard to determine the age of a lobsters.. there is a suspicion, lobsters may be immortal too... in any case, they live for a very long time!

Human beings may break the mystery of aging and the ways to stop aging. Immortality may be possible in a fashion. Like we fly.. with the help some machines... We don't know what future holds. That's why I don't like to get sucked in to any theory like the existence of 'soul'.

Cheers!

 

[Iyyarooraan]

hi
simple death means....the air goes out of body....this human body is made of five elements.....so death means ..these

five elements not working/cessation.....out of five....pranah....the air is very important......if pranah goes away...then the body

became into pindam......

Yes the air (?) goes out of the body. That air(?) is different from the one that enters the dead body and bloats it inspite of plugging the ears and nose. So the 5 elements are also part of the maaya and hence it must the soul which is the sixth element formless and not cognizable by the 5 elements of the material world.

 

[prasad1]

Is Prana= Air?

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Is Prana= Air?

IMHO, Praana is the Soul.

 

[prasad1]

IMHO, Praana is the Soul.

You might have a better explanation. To me Prana = life force.

 

[tbs]

hi
there is sloka in baja govindam.....bhaarya bhibyati asmin kaaye.....when air was in the body....she thinks abt the husband....when air

goes out of body....the wife fears abt the same body....here question?... is she loves the body? or is she loves the air?....

 

[Amirtha]

hi
there is sloka in baja govindam.....bhaatya bhibyati asmin kaaye.....when air was in the body....she thinks abt the husband....when air

goes out of body....the wife fears abt the same body....here question?... is she loves the body? or is she loves the air?....

Shri tbs

She loves the body when the air inside... lol....

Kind Regards

 

[tbs]

Shri tbs

She loves the body when the air inside... lol....

Kind Regards

thanks..lol.....may be in arranged marriage....in love marriage..body secondary....malarum ninaivugal....

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I would like to classify life of humans into two as as physical life and mental life. In the event of brain death only the mental life ceases and we can say we cease to be human but don't cease to be a living being. That is physical life can exist as indicated in the activity of the heart and sustenance of various other physical functions that can be found in brain dead persons even though artificially. The physical life also doesn't last long after brain death as brain death indicates that the body is collapsing.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I would like to classify life of humans into two as as physical life and mental life. In the event of brain death only the mental life ceases and we can say we cease to be human but don't cease to be a living being. That is physical life can exist as indicated in the activity of the heart and sustenance of various other physical functions that can be found in brain dead persons even though artificially. The physical life also doesn't last long after brain death as brain death indicates that the body is collapsing.

Artificially sustained life is only a medical miracle. It is a moot point whether such life is to be considered as life proper unless there is a return to normal life subsequently. This is my view but I don't know how doctors view this.

 

[ozone]

Artificially sustained life is only a medical miracle. It is a moot point whether such life is to be considered as life proper unless there is a return to normal life subsequently. This is my view but I don't know how doctors view this.

The question here is whether to consider the departure of the Atma or its continued presence in such situations.

 

[sangom]

The question here is whether to consider the departure of the Atma or its continued presence in such situations.

I hold that it is a medical miracle, but not normal life. The talk about Atma present or not, is ludicrous because we don't know anything about Atma. So, it is like deciding whether an invisible man is present in the room or not.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Sangom,
I agree with your view.
In this case all the equipment is there but no electricity from the source. So the body instruments are there but there is no cognitive power to convert the messages received. Like you always say that the life force, which you may call Atma is gone, away from that life less body.

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

Again " no aatma" "atma departs" ...?

ok, let me try afresh , please answer me ... there are no means of knowledge at deep sleep state correct ? then by what means we experience the blissful state of sleep and say we enjoyed, the happy state of sleep. ? " anandama thoongineen.." is common experience, from where it come?

if you dwell on these, you will come to understand " what is really death?"

 

[HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA]

deep sleep state bliss is equal to all , not like vishaya sukha differing from person to person.

in deep sleep state all of us experience advaita. there is no subject-object duality.

highly recommend "swami sivananda's philosophy of dreams" for true seekers of knowledge.

 

[C RAVI]

I was told by Vaarthiyar who performed various rites for my dad's departed soul, through out the year, similar to what been told by my grandfather when I was too young, that, there is a reason why crimination of the dead body is performed as soon as possible.

It is said that, the Atma (the subtle energy/life force) which initially is considered as Pretha (untill the rituals are completed) tend to wander around its dead body and obviously will be present at the place where the dead body is kept (say in home). Thus to relieve the Pretha from the uncontrolled bondage and to allow it complete the transition, the dead body should be criminated at the earliest.


Considering the above points, I feel when the patient is in acute stage and it is clearly determined that the patient can not revive with his/her natural body performances/functions, specifically the functions of the heart, providing ventilators to the patient is discontinued. And the patient is dischared along with a pumping baloon (if requested for) so that the near and dear ones can keep pumping the baloon like apparatus just to be satisfied that they are keeping the patient alive atleast untill the patient is brought back home. Normally it does not last long as I have personally experienced this by pumping the baloon for my Periyamma (father's elder brother's wife in Bangalore). It gradually gets hardened and no one can further pump the apparatus. What I am trying to point out is, artificial breathing is not similar to consider that the person is alive and in such circumstances, the life force/energy/soul is supposed to be just wandering around the body, neither being able to use the body with its normal/natural funcitoins nor being able to be relieved and go through the transitioin process. The person is actually dead. And the life force/energy/soul is considered to be suffering without a clue to be relieved and further find its way towards the transition phase.



The advanced medical technology can keep the body funtioning artificially BUT can not interfere with the metaphysical aspects of this world and the human life. The technology can be appreciated and utilized for a short/temporary period of time as a part of the treatment process and when restoration of normal body functioning can be expected.

 

[sashikala]

what about people in coma for days, months and sometimes even for years. Just trying to understand what you the knowelgeable are discussing

 

[sangom]

Again " no aatma" "atma departs" ...?

ok, let me try afresh , please answer me ... there are no means of knowledge at deep sleep state correct ? then by what means we experience the blissful state of sleep and say we enjoyed, the happy state of sleep. ? " anandama thoongineen.." is common experience, from where it come?

if you dwell on these, you will come to understand " what is really death?"

Dear HRHK,

Not all deep sleep will look as "aanandamaaka thoonkinEn", imo. There are cases in which apparently you will find a person in deep sleep - not waking up even if there is lot of noise, disturbance, etc., and you have to give a strong bodily push to wake him up, but he may say, on waking up, "avvaLavu nannaa thoonkallai" for inexplicable reasons. This is because the Kaarmic envelope of the Life Force functioning within the human body, retreats into its own terrain to gain more strength and knowledge to face the future but it has not-so-pleasant experiences due to the past Karmas.

Death happens when the Life Force leaves both the physical body and the Karmic envelope on a long term basis. During sleep the Life forve is still present and activating the body but the Kaarmic envelope is not present to recognise the minute-by-minute experiences, yet it has a slender connection with the body so that if a forceful kick is given to the sleeping body, the person wakes up with a jolt which is caused by the abrupt distraction caused to the Karmic envelope.

Smt. Sashikala,

Your post # 49 — People in deep and prolonged coma have their body functioning but the Karmic envelope which actuates the senses of cognition and action has almost fully left its union with the life force. This may be termed fractured death; as and when the envelope breaks its union with the Life force completely the person in Coma will die. Coma is also an experience caused by Karma, imo.