when nations and communities apologize for crimes committed in their name/behalf

[sarang]

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I agree sir. The constitution has already flattened the caste system, has acknowledged the caste system and has made provisions for special concessions (originally only for 50 years or roughly three generations) for the deprived communities. Anyway, original intent of varna system is in shambles, but the cast system is virile and thriving. Only when the caste system is banished from public power related activities - election and politics - and allowed to flourish as a private activity to preserve the caste's culture and tradition, we can come out of this debate. The constitution guarantees equality of castes and religion, but the government is creating more divisions by reservation in resource sharing and representation beyond what was envisaged by our constitution makers.

Once everybody realises that the problems can be solved only by addressing the issues in the correct perspective and not blaming rats or any other animals. Once caste is kept out of politics and power struggle, the problem of caste discrimination will vanish. Of course, there will still be local problems like in paramakkudi, which are to be solved at the local level.

Dear Raghy,

If we consider the pyramidal structure of the hindu society - both ancient and modern - I think every tier or layer has reasons to apologize to all the other tiers or layers beneath theirs, because the dynamics of the hindu social structure itself depended on each tier pushing down (or at least keeping all of them suppressed) those below them in the specified order and each tier, simulataneously trying to upgrade itself to be considered on par with the higher levels. And we have literally thousands and thousands of such fine layers!

In the above circumstances, is it not a good idea for us to consider the Government of India's /Constitution's decision to abolish all inequalities based on caste and further, to take steps for 'positive discrimination' in favour of the downtrodden sections, as sufficient in place of the "apology" which does not look practicable, any way?

 

[ozone]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

But these present day brahmins very zealously stick to the customs and conventions observed by their forefathers and feel very proud about it too. The things they have omitted to adhere to are eithet banned/prohibited by the laws of the present government or, they themselves find it useless or inconvenient to adhere to because of their pre-occupation with earning more and more wealth in their lives and lead a comfortable, materialistic life. Yet, they do not have the humility or broad-mindedness to tender an apology.

Would it be OK for me to seek some explanations for better understanding? What customs and conventions you refer to here you think continue to show atrocities?

That said, who is the representative body to make that apology?

and who should be the representative body to receive the apology?

thanks

 

[prasad1]

Dear Raghy,

If we consider the pyramidal structure of the hindu society - both ancient and modern - I think every tier or layer has reasons to apologize to all the other tiers or layers beneath theirs, because the dynamics of the hindu social structure itself depended on each tier pushing down (or at least keeping all of them suppressed) those below them in the specified order and each tier, simulataneously trying to upgrade itself to be considered on par with the higher levels. And we have literally thousands and thousands of such fine layers!

In the above circumstances, is it not a good idea for us to consider the Government of India's /Constitution's decision to abolish all inequalities based on caste and further, to take steps for 'positive discrimination' in favour of the downtrodden sections, as sufficient in place of the "apology" which does not look practicable, any way?

Caste system should be abolished. It was the intent of the Indian Constitution. The Brahmins in general (definitely in TN) are powerless and have given up any perceived superiority they ever had. It is the NB that will not give up the advantage they have achieved in the name of caste.
I bet these people who are clamoring for apology, are laughing at the discomfort to the few brahmins in this site. I also bet that these same people will not give up their position to some one less fortunate in their own community or say a poor brahmin.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Professor,

I understand your import. But the problem with apologies is this: I can not apologize for my forefathers. If I can sincerely, I would.

I do not discriminate. So, I am supposed to apologize to my peers whose forefathers were wronged? Even if I do, their acceptance of it would be meaningless, as they are not the wronged party.

In my opinion, these recommended actions of apologies are nothing but based on wiping out the guilt feelings some may have about their ancestry. As far as I am concerned, my dharma towards the down trodden is to help them achieve dignity within my capacity (if they need it). This includes ALL down trodden.

Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

just curious!

why the law of our modern land, makes the son liable for his fathers debt?

after all, what talked here is all about an intangible thing, may be a simple lip service..

 

[sangom]

Caste system should be abolished. It was the intent of the Indian Constitution. The Brahmins in general (definitely in TN) are powerless and have given up any perceived superiority they ever had. It is the NB that will not give up the advantage they have achieved in the name of caste.
I bet these people who are clamoring for apology, are laughing at the discomfort to the few brahmins in this site. I also bet that these same people will not give up their position to some one less fortunate in their own community or say a poor brahmin.

Dear Shri Prasad,

I sincerely feel, even though I am a born brahmin and stand to lose because of the job reservation system (none of my sons could secure a decent enough job in India and had to go abroad), that, without the reservations, the downtrodden sections would not have obtained even what they have been able to secure since Independence. This is because we higher castes have the ability to make maximum benefit for our community people if only the power is vested with us. I can give number of examples but I won't because it will be exposing many long-dead tabras who perhaps did all those "benefits" to other brahmins because they felt it was a 'satkarma' or goog deed. I may give one jocular but true example: in the 1960's there was a department known as "Department of Research & Statistics" which was known as "Department of Raos and Sarmas" and that would have been found true if anybody went through the staff-list. Hence I do not find fault with reservations.

I also am in favour of apology, if it will be feasible but my intention is not at all to cause any discomfort to anyone. And when you write "discomfort to the few brahmins in this site" (emphasis mine), I do not know what exactly your intention is!

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Prasad,

I sincerely feel, even though I am a born brahmin and stand to lose because of the job reservation system (none of my sons could secure a decent enough job in India and had to go abroad), that, without the reservations, the downtrodden sections would not have obtained even what they have been able to secure since Independence. This is because we higher castes have the ability to make maximum benefit for our community people if only the power is vested with us. I can give number of examples but I won't because it will be exposing many long-dead tabras who perhaps did all those "benefits" to other brahmins because they felt it was a 'satkarma' or goog deed. I may give one jocular but true example: in the 1960's there was a department known as "Department of Research & Statistics" which was known as "Department of Raos and Sarmas" and that would have been found true if anybody went through the staff-list. Hence I do not find fault with reservations.

I also am in favour of apology, if it will be feasible but my intention is not at all to cause any discomfort to anyone. And when you write "discomfort to the few brahmins in this site" (emphasis mine), I do not know what exactly your intention is!

Nepotism is not exclusive to brahmins, Not all rao's are brahmins.

I am not against giving some preferential treatment to the disadvantaged, for a limited time the framers of the constitution had in mind. The people to be given preferential treatment should not be birth based it should be means based.

I bet these people who are clamoring for apology, are laughing at the discomfort to the few brahmins in this site. I also bet that these same people will not give up their position to some one less fortunate in their own community or say a poor brahmin.

That paragraph was not for brahmins (including you). But again if you think it was for you I can not help it. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[kunjuppu]

the contnuing saga of poonam and the dalits is in today's globe and mail. this issue explains the odds against the dalits and the dalit girls in particular.

i think it is easy for all of us, sitting in the comforts of our home, to complain against quotas and reservations, and wonder why it is after 60 years of independence there are still large tracts of dalit serfdom.

the answer is in the behaviour of the upper castes, and i agree, tambrams, may once have been part of this crowd, and not today. but in all honesty, we who get riled and upset, and muslim invasions and desecration of our temples, the british invasion, and the utlimate erosion of our values, and many of us, who would not even acknowledge one iota of benefit done to india by the british..... can we look at ourselves in the mirror, and refuse to see history, our own history, under the cloak of religion, created an environment for what i would call, 'crimes against humanity'.

would any one of like trade places with the dalits? we conveniently explain the accident of birth to karma. see, this is what i say, cruelty sanctioned, by religion, for the select few, one strata stepping on top of the other, and everyone sh***ing on the dalits.

/breaking-caste/you-can-unlock-the-potential-of-indias-most-oppressed-girls-but-where-are-they-going-to-use-it

i can almost see the refusal of many to understand the odds and barricades put up against the dalits. to claim that we are not responsible, yet call ourselves hindus, is inappropriate. the brahmin or the priestly class, is not looked at with favour, in any culture. we can cast aside our behaviour towards priesthood of today. but our parents and grandparents and ancestors did not. whether we acknowledge selectively our ancestors, casting aside the unsavouries, and picking only what suits us - is this fair? or the sign of an honest introspection?

in today's globe, here is another instance, of one nation, apologizing to another - for crimes committed by the ancestors - not distant but recent.

six-decades-later-dutch-apologize-for-indonesian-massacre/

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I wish all members open the website'www.shastras.org' and read the 'Statement of Apology' to the Dalit Community.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

The comments of 44 individuals which is available with the report in a Canadian Newspaper about a particular group of people from Uttar pradesh is quite revealing. The intention of the author for publishing such articles appears to be to get charity from Canada.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Sangom, Greetings.

If we consider the pyramidal structure of the hindu society - both ancient and modern - I think every tier or layer has reasons to apologize to all the other tiers or layers beneath theirs, because the dynamics of the hindu social structure itself depended on each tier pushing down (or at least keeping all of them suppressed) those below them in the specified order and each tier, simulataneously trying to upgrade itself to be considered on par with the higher levels. And we have literally thousands and thousands of such fine layers!

That is exactly right. The caste system has a pyramid structure. It can not be eradicated by blaming just one caste or community. Even when (not if) all the brahmins get eradicated in the near future in Tamil Nadu, still there will be casteism, still there will be untouchability, still there will be caste based aggressions and voilences. I am looking at this caste as issue as an outsider, not as a brahmin. All I see is a pyramid structure. Even if one portion of the pyramid gets destroyed, still the structure with all it's undesirable qualities will remain. It is essential to open up the pyramid and make it a two dimentional structure, so that we can reach all across the population. Anything else will not succeed.

In the above circumstances, is it not a good idea for us to consider the [COLOR=#da7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]Government[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] of India's /Constitution's decision to abolish all inequalities based on caste and further, to take steps for 'positive discrimination' in favour of the downtrodden sections, as sufficient in place of the "apology" which does not look practicable, any way?

In my opinion, that system is not the answer. The positive discrimination method was tried for over 60 years. It has not worked. Still the casteism remains; still the caste based oppression & discriminations continues. All it achieved was discriminating one community of persons. that's all. A person from BC and MBC still continues to practice discriminations against few sets of persons and at the same time gets rewarded in the reservation system! I can't believe educated persons can't see the defects in such a system. I admit, it is quite difficult to notice a huge white elephant standing in the middle of the lounge. You may argue about the improvements in the small percentage of persons from SC & ST communities; but such developments could have been achieved without this barbaric reservation system. I am not trying to 'save' brahmin community here; I don't even wear my poonool ( I was wearing it with reverence at one time; but removed it for pure personal reasons); I know, the brahmin community in Tamil Nadu will become extinct in the future but the caste based discriminations will remain.

The Government's constituion is a joke. On the one hand she wants the casteism and caste based discrimination's destroyed; on the other hand she bends over backwards to reward through reservations, persons who continue to practice caste based discriminations. When there is reward in place, why would anyone give up their caste status? The whole reservation scheme is retarded, has not worked to remove casteism or caste based discriminations in the past 60 plus years! Good luck to you guys for clinging on such a system seeking a miracle!

India is not a poor country anymore. There are many social systems that work equitably. Nobody can convince me otherwise. Presently I am paid to study and implement such equitable systems to help persons with ciriminal background and with mental illness. But I don't see Indian politicians going for such equitable systems.

(By the way, I noticed the 'statement of Apology' mentioned by Sri.Krishnamurthy in post #33).

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri ShivKC,

I don't know about India, but in the US, a father's debt is not automatically passed down to the children. The entity that loaned the money to a person can only strive to collect it from the estate of the deceased , not from the children.

Regards,
KRS

just curious!

why the law of our modern land, makes the son liable for his fathers debt?

after all, what talked here is all about an intangible thing, may be a simple lip service..

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Kunjuppu, Greetings.

i think it is easy for all of us, sitting in the comforts of our home, to complain against quotas and reservations, and wonder why it is after 60 years of independence there are still large tracts of dalit serfdom.

The answer is simple. The system of quotas and resrvations have not worked to eradicate casteism and caste based discriminations. The whole reservation and quota system is a knee jerk reaction. A time will come, Indians will be ashamed of this reservation system as they are ashamed of the caste system. No matter how ever you try to polish it, resrvation system punishes one community of persons for the alleged deeds of a portion of their forefathers. That is the truth; that's what is seen by an outsider. Such system is a barbaric system.

the answer is in the behaviour of the upper castes, and i agree, tambrams, may once have been part of this crowd, and not today. but in all honesty, we who get riled and upset, and muslim invasions and desecration of our temples, the british invasion, and the utlimate erosion of our values, and many of us, who would not even acknowledge one iota of benefit done to india by the british..... can we look at ourselves in the mirror, and refuse to see history, our own history, under the cloak of religion, created an environment for what i would call, 'crimes against humanity'.

That is because, the pyramid system of caste system is not properly identified in India. Everybody all and sundry held one community responsible for all the ills of the caste systems; as any kangaroo court would do, they all collectively punished that community while denying their own disciminating deeds. To look at ourselves, to look at our misgivings, to accept & Acknowledge our misgivings, we have to be honest. What honesty are you expecting from communities who practice caste based discriminations and also accept rewards in the resrvation system? Brahmin community is being punished, buddy! Since they are accepting the punishments, even sometimes with protest, one should not have reason to keep on harping on that community. This is the reality check, please.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Sri ShivKC,

I don't know about India, but in the US, a father's debt is not automatically passed down to the children. The entity that loaned the money to a person can only strive to collect it from the estate of the deceased , not from the children.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS:

I guess what Shiv means is someone is held responsible for what the deceased did or responsible for!

Even in the US, most of the Estates is in the hands of the children, with some exceptions, I believe.

In this current debate, I am thinking more of the PROCESS like "How could one go about Apologizing: Which Authority should apologize to which Authority to receive it?

In an Indian context, is this feasible or desirable or doable at all?

Coming from a small rural village, our taluk was designated as the Most Backward Area in entire Ramnad District. We are all considered to be the Victims of the System.

Am I asking for apology from anybody? NO.

Was I openly discriminated by anybody in School, College or University ? No, not that I can logically say.

Did I get Govt help anytime? Yes, I was informed by the Madura College (1967-71) that they received large sums of money to subsidize my Hostel Food Bill from the State. Did I sign any paper for it? Yes in the Hostel.

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Sri ShivKC,

I don't know about India, but in the US, a father's debt is not automatically passed down to the children. The entity that loaned the money to a person can only strive to collect it from the estate of the deceased , not from the children.

Regards,
KRS

Ji,

since this is an indian social issue, and so i have referred indian hindu undivided family inheritance law, which was framed mainly based on the hindu philosophy 'pious obligation'.

unlike u.s law of inheritance of ancestral properties, as per indian law, by default the assets goes to the children, so are the debts. for eg, the said father must have inherited estate from his great great grandfathers, but borrowed money and died without paying. the 10th generation ancestral property will come to the son automatically, and also his debts.

you know,our custom/culture/philosophy/hindu inheritance laws emphasize,that every one to take the responsibility of the good or bad done by the ancestors.if its an inheritance of assets, get cherished, and if its debt repay it (or) apologize to seek waiver. that's the foundation of the hindu philosophy of 'pious obligation'.

if one takes proud in ancestors,glorifies him in all the rituals, then by any logic,and with the same yard stick, one should accept the mistake of the same. or else, one should have been adopting the policy, he is 'dead and gone'.

i'm not here to debate which community to apologize whom! all i know is, tendering an apology is always good and beneficial to both the persons. this is what i have explained in one of the previous post

however in one of your response, you expressed your apprehension that, tendering an apology may develop hatred or adverse effects. would be nice, if you could quote some incidences from history, that, tendering an apology had turned out to be a wrong move.

 

[happyhindu]

would any one of like trade places with the dalits? we conveniently explain the accident of birth to karma. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ogize-for-indonesian-massacre/article2265502/

K sir,

Nice post. But i wud say it was misuse of the karma concept. Misuse of a concept to fix caste/varna by birth.

 

[happyhindu]

Ji,

since this is an indian social issue, and so i have referred indian hindu undivided family inheritance law, which was framed mainly based on the hindu philosophy 'pious obligation'.

unlike u.s law of inheritance of ancestral properties, as per indian law, by default the assets goes to the children, so are the debts. for eg, the said father must have inherited estate from his great great grandfathers, but borrowed money and died without paying. the 10th generation ancestral property will come to the son automatically, and also his debts.

you know,our custom/culture/philosophy/hindu inheritance laws emphasize,that every one to take the responsibility of the good or bad done by the ancestors.if its an inheritance of assets, get cherished, and if its debt repay it (or) apologize to seek waiver. that's the foundation of the hindu philosophy of 'pious obligation'.

if one takes proud in ancestors,glorifies him in all the rituals, then by any logic,and with the same yard stick, one should accept the mistake of the same. or else, one should have been adopting the policy, he is 'dead and gone'.

i'm not here to debate which community to apologize whom! all i know is, tendering an apology is always good and beneficial to both the persons. this is what i have explained in one of the previous post

however in one of your response, you expressed your apprehension that, tendering an apology may develop hatred or adverse effects. would be nice, if you could quote some incidences from history, that, tendering an apology had turned out to be a wrong move.

I always thot indians are cultural representative of old socio-religious structural divisions. No caste can claim to be an ethnically exclusive group atleast in terms of biological descent. But if one claims exclusive biological descent or failsafe descent he should be able to prove it.

Also, if one claims descent from Manu, s/he is automatically responsible for the negative side too, not just the glorious side. IMO this apology business will apply to those who think they have had failsafe biological descent from creators of Dharmashastras like Manu.

IMO this apology business will not apply to those who consider themselves as just cultural representatives. "Cultural representatives" are those who do not claim biological descent from Manu and include those whose recent ancestors adopted dharmashastras in the process of sankritisation and/or brahmanisation.

Also, way back there have been europeans trading with india (examples are roman coins found in archeological sites of tamilakam). There are no guarantees where those settlers went. Considering they were traders and well-placed, for all we know, they may have chosen a high-class position for themselves or merged with the natives along with their pre-christian religious concepts (like worship of Mitra).

IMO it will be very difficult, atleast as of now, to prove biological descent (let alone failsafe descent) from IE speakers all the way from vedic period or from the dharmashastra period, for any caste group, irrespective of B or NB.

Nice post Shiv. Although i do not agree with the apology business.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri.Shiv, Greetings.

Personally I feel all the communities that participated in oppressing and discriminating other communities should extend an apology to the affected communities. But I am not sure about this though -

unlike u.s law of inheritance of ancestral properties, as per indian law, by default the assets goes to the children, so are the debts. for eg, the said father must have inherited estate from his great great grandfathers, but borrowed money and died without paying. the 10th generation ancestral property will come to the son automatically, and also his debts.

If the money was borrowed against the said property, then the lender could attach the said property in the event of the father's death. But otherwise, I don't know if the son/daughter can be held responsible for the father's loan in the event of his death. If you can show us the Indian Penal code to support this, it would be nice, please. I have actually seen the loan amount getting written off in the event of the borrower's death; that's why I am curious.

you know,our custom/culture/philosophy/hindu inheritance laws emphasize,that every one to take the responsibility of the good or bad done by the ancestors.if its an inheritance of assets, get cherished, and if its debt repay it (or) apologize to seek waiver. that's the foundation of the hindu philosophy of 'pious obligation'.

I don't know about this. Holding a whole community reponsible for the actions of a portion of the ancestors of the community is stretching it thin. I personally find it hard to buy this kind of logic, please.

( Although the message was addressed to Sri.KRS, I took the liberty to extend my views. Hope you don't mind. If you do mind, kindly let me know, I shall delete this post).

Cheers!

 

[ozone]

just curious!

why the law of our modern land, makes the son liable for his fathers debt?

after all, what talked here is all about an intangible thing, may be a simple lip service..

Does this analogy really fit in here?
Is there a law or have there been instances where a lender has not collected the debt from the son but later holds the great grand son responsible for it?
Additionally, can this one to one - father to son debt repayment concept be extended to a community being discussed here. Has there been any instance where the entire family has been asked to repay a debt?

 

[sarang]

Key points: ancestral property, avyavaharika debt (not tainted, illegal, immoral)

Introduction

Under the Hindu Law, a son is under a pious obligation to discharge his father's debts out of his ancestral property even if he had not been benefited by the debts, provided the debts are not avyavaharika. The sons get exonerated from their obligation to discharge the debt of their father from the family assets only if the debt was one tainted with immorality or illegality.

The duty that is cast upon the son being religious and moral, the liability of the son for the debt must be examined with reference to its character when the debt was first incurred. If at the origin there was nothing illegal or repugnant to good morals, the subsequent dishonesty of the father is in not discharging his obligation will not absolve the son from liability for the debt.

family law-son's pious obligation - Priyanka Tiwari & Ritu Sharma