Who are We? - Part II

[Amoorkan]

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Dear Gurumurthyji,

That clip you posted is a powerful reminder that a community can preserve itself by keeping united. It is the 'animal instinct' in us!

Thanks for that posting.

Best regards,

 

[MeirePudingi]

A most excellent video, though I must agree with Chintana --- it would be much better served in a new, separate thread so that it gets the exposure it truly deserves!

 

[Chintana]

A most excellent video, though I must agree with Chintana --- it would be much better served in a new, separate thread so that it gets the exposure it truly deserves!

You seem to agree with me and endorse me in general. So I am sure you would agree with me when I say that we at the admin would like to change your handle.

I have given you a chance to respond to my earlier message on this - on the thread - What Hindus Need to be Aware of - but no response from you.

Until you write to us about your name change your id will be blocked temporarily. We don't want such an indecent name to float around on this forum.

Thanks in advance for your understanding.

 

[MP4U]

Folks,

After going through all of my postings here and reflecting on the original intent of my postings, I must say that my job has just gotten larger.

When I posed the question, 'Who are we?' and attempted to explain it in the 'societal' terms, I did not understand the relationship between the 'Ashrama Dharma' and the 'Varna Dharma' that I was trying to address.

But as always, Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji, with her tireless logic and the maroon coloured editorial pen, has forced me to think over this relationship and address the issue.

I thank her for her unfailing insight.

So, please bear with me. I will fashion my topic to address both the Varna Dharma and the Ashrama Dharma to the best of my ability. My intent is not borne out of scholorship, but rather out of search from an ignorant point of view - in other words, these are the views of a limited human being and so, if more learned people have contrary views, I beseech them to post here - so all of us can learn.

I will post my summation so far, in my next posting within a couple of days and then we will proceed.

Pranams,
KRS

KRS,

I have just joined this forum and this very thread you started was what convinced me that I ought to register and contribute. I have learned quite a bit from this discussion alone. Thanks very much for starting this discussion! :whoo:

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri MP4U Ji,

Thank you for your very kind words.

As you might have seen, I have been unable to go back, summarize and move forward yet, for lack of a concrete block of time to do so. Whenever I have been planning to set aside some time to do so, He somehow allots me to some other work, away from this Forum that must be done.

However, I am hoping that very soon, I can resume this thread, as it's main thesis is not yet completed.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Who are we ?

Shri Amoorkanji,

HH Jagadguru Chandrasekara Bharati of Sringeri has given the correct
interpretation of the term " Advaitham " in a question and answer session
with a devotee. I am sure you must be having an English translation of it.
I have it in Tamil, published by Sri Sringeri Guru Seva Samithi, Chennai.
If you are unable to get it, kindly let me know sir.

 

[Fehu]

I agree with both of you.Brahmins have wrong ego which cannot be sustained in society without power.When they try to wield power they adopt devious ways.

I have a brahmin neighbor who suppressed some documents to gain some relief in property tax matter and also he spearheaded the association proceedings first to collect money for the society.When we found out that he was paying his personal electricity bills along with 20 others similarly placed from the association funds Many started questioning.He silently resigned and now shouts at everybody in the flat system to camouflage his earlier activities.You may try to politely ignore or casually dismiss this incident as rare.But it such incidents are many. I have come across in life a number of incidents and happenings that our own community back stabbing our own people for gains in my officialdom.
First I consider any honest man as brahmin.If there is derelication in probity in life I don't care for the sampradaya and smiriti etc.
I tried to unite a community like this in homogeneously structured group of officers.But tomy dismay many were not effective or black sheeps to the community by aligning themselves to the other groups for personal gains.
I have a big diary of the heart- rending incidents which has proved the unreliability of the brahminical approach.We should first develop a common agenda of ethical codes based on basics of behaviour and potential behaviour in the future with estimated expectation of conditions. then circulate the documents for discussion.The document should take a visa media approach so that more aggregations of the community join the venture. Then separate smapradayas and developing modifications can be worked out and discussed.The discussions themselves will bring in internalization in thoughts.But thoughts lead only to thoughts.Hence a conference can be arranged of Neo-brahmins of this type cutting across all exceptions and barrierers such as language,region,subsects etc declaring everybody as Brahmin Hindu.
The administrators should think on these lines without delving deep into small mores and cultural rites of the old brahmins.
Then as i have volunteered for propagation of science amongst brahmin boys.I would like you people in US to encourage our brahmin boys to learn karate or kung-fu which has got its direct and indirect benefits in the developing entropic and chaotic society.
The news ways of brahmin life in USA Canada and even Europe and Gulf can be brought into this document I propose now. I mean a "developing brahminism" should be the aim and not the old mores and culture.Take the best and adaptable from the old and marry it with the present behaviour and project for the future a flexible norms of very general nature.
This will create a religious sub sect liked by all including Christians and muslims of liberal kind.
this should become the world Charter for Brahmins and not the existing Vedas and Puranas and Even BhagvatGeeta.
This is my suggestion for initial discussion and future action.
Administrators should welcome criticism in action and not go on explaining away small occurrences.If such a big cultural structural change is not brought about in the coming decade we will all lose our identities and develop inner conflicts of mind and cannot progress further with merit.Have you published the volunteers list ? please send that to me in Chennai sothat I can co-ordinate these activities.
You see the cult of Bangaru Adigalar and Satya Saibaba wielding money power and man power.See many pseudo cults are developing.these are happening because of the directionless codes and mores and culture of the Hindu brahmins.

...........................................................................................................................................

Further continuing the whole idea,Hinduism requires one central command like Pope. We have so many sects so many samiyars all preaching their ways and interpretations in contradiction to the other.Some self motivated neophytes from USA or India cannot revive the whole system. RSS and Ramakrishna Mutt are trying to do such a thing.But again both are not coordinating each other. Now Subramaniyam Swami trying a third way by mobilising all to avert damages to the authority of Sankaracharya of Kanchee.

I attend several religious discourses and several meetings of brahmin associations.The dominant few dictate their terms and there is know democracy. Even in a small meeting two brahmins don't agree on the same point and they don't know what is compromise.Every brahmin lives in his "bounded rationality".the reasons are not only lack of resources,but a innate fighting tendency with ego but without economic legs.the Gurukkal system and the Vadyar systems have become commercial and highly economy based quite understandably.
When a Vadyar is wary of carrying to his house all left-overs and puja offerings and donations rather than conducting the ceremony to mental satisfaction,how can you approve of the behavior.Even in US the temples are turning into commercial strongholds of various sects by donations and the priests their are highly dollar minded.Even they misbehave if seen through the mirror of an expected behaviour of a brahmin. Non-brahmin Govts in India are regulating the funds of the temples.

Institutions grow by buildings and their imposing structures in all civilizations as for as I see.Hitler developed mammoth constructions.For that matter see roman Empire and the stadia and palaces.Temples are the physical structures through which other religions thrive.Church buildings Mosques and prayer halls etc.But temples are slowly becoming irrelevant because of the intellectual poverty of the Gurukkal community and the cornering of resources by the Govts.
There should be a plan for brahmins to get into temple administrations and developed interests in this directions with the help of RSS and Ramakrishna Mutt. Sankaracharyas have become more in number and ways.They are out of alignment with the intellectual protectors of Hinduism.
Media and internet telecom have started ruling.A strategy through these instruments to develop a Hindu brahmin identity should be worked out.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[KRS]

Let us continue here

Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji,

I have decided to use the thread I started some time ago to continue my discussions. After seeing the so called 'debate' between myself and Sri Desi Ji, you said the following:

Dear Desi!

A warm welcome. I thoroughly enjoyed the above debates. You match audacity with audacity. For your ferocity the opponent is matchless.

If you have some useful ideas to share for the progress of humanity. Please enlighten us.

Regards

Now I have a question for you. Do you think that what went on between myself and Sri Desi Ji are 'debates'? Are you then cheering for one side against the other?

Your posting here looks like that you have decided that Sri Desi Ji is the 'winner'. If so, can you tell me on what points he has 'won'? Do you think then, others who do not share your point of view on Hinduism are not following the basic tenets of Hinduism?

If so, can you elaborate the basic tenets of Hinduism one should follow to be a 'good' Hindu?

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Sri Desi Ji, please respond

Dear Sri Desi Ji,

You responded: My response is in color:

Dear KRS,


Quote:
"This sort of dogmatic view based on different views within Hinduism leads nowhere. Unless we understand the many stranded views of whole of Hinduism and appreciate it, there will be no unity. This is the curse, precisely exhibited by the likes of you, who are wedded to one idea, just beacause of the sect you belong to. A strength of Hinduism that allows for worship in multitude is now turned in to a strict dogma, on an issue that has no relevance today."
In the name of opposing 'dogmatic view' you like to keep stirring the pot. That of course gives you importance!

Dear Sri Desi ji, seems like you are still not getting the point. This is not about me! This is about acknowledging and appreciating other opinions in our religion in the AREAS THAT ARE OPEN TO DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS AND NOT SET IN STONE. Seems to me that you think that there is only one interpretation of who is a Brahmin in our religion. If you think that I am 'stirring the pot', so be it. Please answer this question: Do you, or do you not think that the issue of Brahmin by birth is interpreted in different ways by our esteemed Hindu Luminaries?



Quote:
"Yet you keep on citing Maha Periaval as the authority. Please understand that He is an authority when it comes to the Advatins like me."
If Mahaperiava is an authority for 'Advaitins like you', then you would not have cited others. Either you are not an advaitin or Mahaperiava is not your authority or both.!

I said I am an 'Advaitin' mainly from the view point of by birth and family tradition. If the question like what you say here arises, no, I am probably not an 'Advaitin' in its philosophical sense, but Maha Periaval is still an authority as far as my private beliefs are concerned. But I will never ever impose that on any other Hindu who happens to be born in and raised with a different philosophy. Just because I follow the teachings of Maha Periaval, and if it is contrary to the teachings of other Hindu giants' teachings, does not mean that I have to throw up on other philosophies and teachings. I know the path I am traveling personally in the realm of spirituality, but at the same time, I recognize and honor other beiliefs that are part of the vast religion known as Hinduism. Unless we come out of this insular sectarian view and embrace all aspects of Hinduism, we will not unite. Can you tell me your basic concept of what the tenets of Hinduism is and then who you would consider as a Hindu?



Quote:
"I will not be responding to you Sri Desi Ji, under this thread anymore after this."
Much better! Thank you! We can do something useful!
Regards,

This following posting of yours is fascinating:

Dear MMji,

I was not trying to be audacious. And I don't have ill will against anyone including Mr.KRS even though I believe that we are parellels. He has a right to his opinions. People are prone to their likings. Let them enjoy it, after all that is the nature of life.

If you agree that I have the right to my opinions and by corollary, I would assume that you would agree that Sri Nacchinarkiniyan also has the right to his opinions, why would you support any attacks on his person by Sri malgova.mango Ji or Sri Ram Ji? Is it because, their views are close to your own and so you do not see Sri Nacchinarkiniyan as a proper Hindu?

I would appreciate, if you can expand on this. I think, this sort of behaviour is the root cause of our disunity as a community.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Desi]

You have already been checkmated! The game is over!! I know you would like to keep stirring the pot in a new avatar. Sorry, I am no taker for that!

 

[Fehu]

After reading all the blogs and comments from Mr.Chintana and Mr.KRS and replies by M.R.Kahsyap and others.Who are we? Can we be Gurus to all the population?

Any leadership role requires Authority of concern,Authority of hierarchy and authority of expertise.

Guru should possess all these qualities to keep up his position.

Brahmin community is attacked for lack of concern and a nonchalance towards other communities. Regarding the ban of Ah Nachle film because it contained a word "mochi" in mocking way is quite correct.How can the higher communities tread on the feelings of the lower castes? Brahmins have willy nilly perpetrated in some remote villages some differentiation which has eroded into their possession of authority of concern int he community.How to repair this? That is what I am worried about?

Fehu

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Desi Ji,

Checkmated! Game over! This is how you are looking at our discussions? That you have checkmated a fellow TB?

You have raised a series of questions that I answered and at the end you could not respond. So, are you saying as a 'scientist', you can not discuss these?

I have asked you some specific questions, that by the way fit in to the theme of this thread and you are claiming victory in a so called 'debate' with a self acknowledged 'poor man' on the sidelines cheering you on!

Sir, this is not a proper protocol, while a discussion on a point continued in a different thread and I wanted to stop the discussions there and you used that opportunity to crown yourself as a 'victor'. This is not about any debate, but about discussions in a civil manner about the polemics you have raised. If you can not answer, please say so. Don't crown yourself with any kreedam of false 'victory'. This sort of behaviour is unacceptable.

I ask the denizens of this Forum and Administrators to address this kind of behaviour by this person.

Pranams,
KRS

You have already been checkmated! The game is over!! I know you would like to keep stirring the pot in a new avatar. Sorry, I am no taker for that!

 

[KRS]

Dear Fehu Ji,

You hit the nail on it's head, concerning the essence of this thread.

While, we the Brahmins once held the total spiritual, cultural and thought leadership position in the Hindu society, today we have lost it. How do we move forward in an age where such a cohesive leadership is not only required but desperately needed to mold our Hindu society in to one community that safe guards our traditions, values and way of life.

This is why a Forum like this is very important. Here we are trying to unite a small community called Tamil Brahmins (be it Iyers, Iyengars, Madhwas, Chozhias, Vadamas, Braharcharnams, Vadagalai, Thenkalai, different Gothras etc., etc.,) in to a one cohesive 'secular' (yes, secular, even though the true meaning is in mud) group that advances the interest of our community.

To do this we need to understand 'who are we'? How do we accept these seeming differences amongst us and appreciate each other? To do this we should first understand what the differences are and why they are there.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[vijisesh]

Dear Nacchi ji,

The Bhakta believes in Asuras, myths , innumerable varam's , avatar's and so many things --may be he ought to because he's feels so close to such hallucinations ( right word ??)
which has been inscribed deep into his brain , ever since he was a child !

In order to get the Hindu child's attention/ inclination towards religion and to make him believe in GOD , the father's are left with no option other than narrating magic mythological stories , about the good things that GOD can give , and for a very arrogant child , threaten him with ' my dear bootham's ' to get him in the right track !

As soon as praying becomes a habit , it is done involuntarily upto the age of realization. For some this age of realization and true faith in GOD may commence early depending on circumstances .

Now once he comes of age , he can separate religious beliefs from the intellectual analysis --as you have mentioned ! But it becomes too late for the orthodox practioner's to accept logic and to think of and digest anything defying his image pattern , already created in his mind , about asuras, avatars etc etc.

That being the reason , some people spontaneously reciprocate and mercury boils , when some scientific evidence put forth by someone , disproves their thought pattern !
So i feel i am happy to hear that Vedas are not written like the religious scripts of many and have flexibility for its follower's . Definitely so many cults have mixed their creativity with the existing available data making it more and more diverse and creating as many branches as possible for a big banyan tree !
So Mr Fehu, more the gurus , the more merrier ! You need them to control the huge population explosion !!

As long as all the branches provide shelter to the desiring passer by , all's well !

 

[Fehu]

Good open inquiry into the essence of our state of affairs and rectifications.

Shri KRSji,

I totally agree with your well reasoned and measured statements.I have been reading all the comments.Comments from Mr.Desi and Vijisesh, Malgova and Ramaa are always skewed and full of innuendos rather than genuine need to gather the various points of view.We are not Sankaracharyas in debate on whose thinking of God is correct as he did with various sects and nobody is Guruji here demanding implicit adherence to others points of view. as Vijisesh has written.

As Tamil brahmins who were known to adhere the way of Guruji and gurukula we have come out had variegated education from various persons of various religions etc in various universities in the east and the west.

Unless these people have a tolerant and muted approach to individual statements we cannot have a longterm view on the perception of the community.
Shri KRS please continue to contribute your views even if they are contrarian.

Sincerely,
Fehu
"Down to earth Prosperity"
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT]

 

[KRS]

Dear Fehu Ji,

Thank you for your kind words. However, the folks you mentioned also are here trying to make their points. They think their points of view are correct. They have every right to voice their opinions without any censorship, as long as they do not try to insult or muzzle others' ideas.

This forum is extremely fortunate as it has got very fair minded and able administrators. They are also very smart and carry a lot of wisdom. In another Forum where I was contributing the Admins clearly showed non-democratic and prejudiced views, siding with certain contributors, allowing them to verbally abuse and lie in the presenatation of their ideas. And this Forum represents one of the most respected religious organizations in TN!

And so not believing the wisdom of the Administrators to understand what was posted, I became combative and said things that I am not very proud of.

Anyways, I learn a lot from this Forum and as I think about what happened, the following two stanzas from a short work I much admire and read a lot: Tao Te Ching.

Verse 81 (the last verse) says:

True words aren't eloquent;
eloquent words aren't true.
Wise men don't need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren't wise.

Verse 67 says:

I have just three things to teach:
simplicity, patience, compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in actions and in thoughts,
you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies,
you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate toward yourself,
you reconcile all beings in the world.

I hasten to add that these words apply to myself and no one else.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri Fehu,

I changed the formatting of your post to reflect default font and color. As I mentioned in one of my earlier reponses to you in another thread (don't remember which off the top of my head) - bold letters are used for emphasis and big fonts usually represent anger/annoyance according to internet etiquette.

Please do not use big fonts. Bold/capitals is ok for selected parts of the message you want to emphasize.

Regards,
Chintana

Shri KRSji,

I totally agree with your well reasoned and measured statements.I have been reading all the comments.Comments from Mr.Desi and Vijisesh, Malgova and Ramaa are always skewed and full of innuendos rather than genuine need to gather the various points of view.We are not Sankaracharyas in debate on whose thinking of God is correct as he did with various sects and nobody is Guruji here demanding implicit adherence to others points of view. as Vijisesh has written.

As Tamil brahmins who were known to adhere the way of Guruji and gurukula we have come out had variegated education from various persons of various religions etc in various universities in the east and the west.

Unless these people have a tolerant and muted approach to individual statements we cannot have a longterm view on the perception of the community.
Shri KRS please continue to contribute your views even if they are contrarian.

Sincerely,
Fehu
"Down to earth Prosperity"

 

[Chintana]

Sri KRS,

It took the longest time for me to figure out where you picked out this quote from.

In future if you are writing across threads please ensure you make appropriate references.

Regards,
Chintana

Dear Sri malgova.mango Ji,

I have decided to use the thread I started some time ago to continue my discussions. After seeing the so called 'debate' between myself and Sri Desi Ji, you said the following:



Now I have a question for you. Do you think that what went on between myself and Sri Desi Ji are 'debates'? Are you then cheering for one side against the other?

Your posting here looks like that you have decided that Sri Desi Ji is the 'winner'. If so, can you tell me on what points he has 'won'? Do you think then, others who do not share your point of view on Hinduism are not following the basic tenets of Hinduism?

If so, can you elaborate the basic tenets of Hinduism one should follow to be a 'good' Hindu?

Regards,
KRS

 

[Chintana]

Dear Sri KRS and Sri Desi,

Again, I see an extension of the similar kinds of grid-lock both of you faced in the "Know More About Hinduism" thread.

Sri Desi is getting frustrated because he finds the interpretative approach of KRS complicated, confusing and unnecessary.

Sri KRS feels that we will never be able to understand who we are and proceed meaningfully into the future if we don't have answers to some questions that he believes are fundamental. For this understanding complexity is an essential, integral part of the exercise.

This is another version of what happened in the other thread. One is concerned with citizenship and the other, with philosophy.

I have nothing new to say.

Just that please make sure you keep your language within boundaries of mutual respect. Sri Desi, your "checkmated" language was quite unnecessary and unwarranted. No one-upmanship here please! We are not here to compete with one another - but to cooperate with one another. Using this kind of language will not achieve that end.

If you are not able to see eye to eye, please try and move on. If you wish, please try to see where your differences lie and become aware of them. Then you will become aware of the possibilities and limitations of the respective approaches you are adopting.

And please do not forget that we are here for the larger purpose of accepting one another and coming together as a community.

Best Regards,
Chintana

 

[Fehu]

As you are in line with compassionate approach,I add he guidelines I follow:

"There is mercy in every piece,
mercy encouraging thought,
Gives even affliction a grace,
And reconciles man to his lot."

William Cowper in Solitariness of Alexander Selkirk.

Fehu
"Nordic Runic Fehu"

Dear Fehu Ji,

Thank you for your kind words. However, the folks you mentioned also are here trying to make their points. They think their points of view are correct. They have every right to voice their opinions without any censorship, as long as they do not try to insult or muzzle others' ideas.

This forum is extremely fortunate as it has got very fair minded and able administrators. They are also very smart and carry a lot of wisdom. In another Forum where I was contributing the Admins clearly showed non-democratic and prejudiced views, siding with certain contributors, allowing them to verbally abuse and lie in the presenatation of their ideas. And this Forum represents one of the most respected religious organizations in TN!

And so not believing the wisdom of the Administrators to understand what was posted, I became combative and said things that I am not very proud of.

Anyways, I learn a lot from this Forum and as I think about what happened, the following two stanzas from a short work I much admire and read a lot: Tao Te Ching.

Verse 81 (the last verse) says:

True words aren't eloquent;
eloquent words aren't true.
Wise men don't need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren't wise.

Verse 67 says:

I have just three things to teach:
simplicity, patience, compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in actions and in thoughts,
you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies,
you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate toward yourself,
you reconcile all beings in the world.

I hasten to add that these words apply to myself and no one else.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Fehu]

Dear Fehu Ji,

Thank you for your kind words. However, the folks you mentioned also are here trying to make their points. They think their points of view are correct. They have every right to voice their opinions without any censorship, as long as they do not try to insult or muzzle others' ideas.

This forum is extremely fortunate as it has got very fair minded and able administrators. They are also very smart and carry a lot of wisdom. In another Forum where I was contributing the Admins clearly showed non-democratic and prejudiced views, siding with certain contributors, allowing them to verbally abuse and lie in the presenatation of their ideas. And this Forum represents one of the most respected religious organizations in TN!

And so not believing the wisdom of the Administrators to understand what was posted, I became combative and said things that I am not very proud of.

Anyways, I learn a lot from this Forum and as I think about what happened, the following two stanzas from a short work I much admire and read a lot: Tao Te Ching.

Verse 81 (the last verse) says:

True words aren't eloquent;
eloquent words aren't true.
Wise men don't need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren't wise.

Verse 67 says:

I have just three things to teach:
simplicity, patience, compassion.
These three are your greatest treasures.
Simple in actions and in thoughts,
you return to the source of being.
Patient with both friends and enemies,
you accord with the way things are.
Compassionate toward yourself,
you reconcile all beings in the world.

I hasten to add that these words apply to myself and no one else.

Pranams,
KRS

Very good advice that Chintana should follow

Fehu

 

[Chintana]

Thank you for your advice which was quite unwarranted.

Again, another example of your patronizing attitude and "telling" others what they should be doing instead of figuring out if there is a kernel of truth in what they are saying about your postings.

Best,
Chintana

Very good advice that Chintana should follow

Fehu

 

[Ramaa]

It would be nice if more of our members post especially those seniors like Sri Hariharanji, Ramkiji and Silverfox ji, in order to show solidarity with the forum.