Who is Brahmanan

[Raghy]

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Dear all,

What does anyone gain by finding manmade loopholes in various religions and have vadam and prativadam on technical grounds?
Its not really nice to read about Krishna,Rama and Jesus being ridiculed here.

You can't light up your home by blowing another's flame
Cos' the flame in you and me is one and the same.


Please remember Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti.

Sow. sri. Renukakarthikayan,

Good to see you again. No, Rama, Krishna or jesus are not ridiculed here. Only the people following dogmas are ridiculed. If I take the job of cleaning a sewer, I always get into the sewer and start cleaning. I am sorry. I like to convey mesages in the language that the intended reader understands. Some times it stinks.

 

[Raghy]

The time has come for me to openly talk about myself. Kindly don’t judge me as a very polite person from a few postings I have made in this forum. I have been known only for my impoliteness, rudeness and argumentativeness. As of today, my village has not forgotten the arrogance I displayed in my youth. The village has accepted that I know how to respect others; that’s all. For many years in various forums I was only debating. I have not defended Hinduism all the time either. I thought I had enough of all that. Here, in this forum, I did not want to debate at all (‘dabate’ with Sri. Nara can not be counted. He never debated with me but only corrected me). But if a debate is thrust down our throat, I don’t think we should take it lying down. I request the learned members to kindly comment on this, please. Thank you.

 

[renuka]

Dear Raghy,

I admire your courage and spirit.

But as i said earlier its sad to see Krishna,Rama and Jesus dragged into our human conflicts.
Each form of divinity needs to be given the due respect.

Thats why i humbly request that forms of divinity be left out of this debate.
This is my humble plea to everyone and not just Raghy alone.

The debate can go on and we can defend ourselves when provoked thats just a normal human reflex "Fight, Flight Response".

But do not let too much adrenaline flow in our veins its effect on health are not really good and condusive.

 

[RVR]

Sri Raghy,

We always appreciate your views. I have seen you in other threads also. Nobody is under estimating your capabilities.

Simply because somebody is beating us, we should not take the law into our hands.

Any reasonable argument, we can counter to the best of our abilities. But somebody spreads hatred against our community, there is no point arguing with that guy.

We are a miniscule minority in the entire globe. Still we have produced a Ramanujam, C V Raman, Chandrasekhar, Srinivasa Varadhan and Ramakrishnan. Let those who started hate campaign against our community in Tamilnadu produce people of such calibre instead of showing enmity.

We are not obstructing anybody's path. We have withdrawn from the various positions in Tamilnadu which our forefathers held and still they are not unable to destroy us.

These people are talking out of pure jealous and nothing else.

Let us not fight with such people. Let us concentrate on the development of our community.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri RVR,

Thanks for your views. I respect your views. I am happy that I have come to this polite environment. Sincerely I do not like to upset the harmony of this nice forum. I will follow your suggestion and Sri. Renukakarthikayan's suggestion, and refrain from any more debating.

 

[renuka]

Dear Raghy,

Really nice and thoughtful of you.

Dont you think you answered your own question" Who Is a Brahmanan?"

 

[Raghy]

Sri Mohanakrishnan asked :-

“if jathi(here varnam) is not by birth ,then y krishna asked arjuna and ordered him to fight??krishna said ,o arjuna it is ur duty (karma) to fight...
why did he do??”

Sri Mohanakrishnan,
You have answered your own question partly in your post. Krishna’s suggestion to fight did not base upon varna or jati. Whether they were based upon birth or choice did not have any relevance with the Kurukshetra war. Dharma was very silly enough to take part in a gambling game in which he lost everything including his wife. That is a different point to discuss. How ever, it was the condition agreed upon the winners to return everything after 13 years. That condition was not met Kuaravas. All negotiations were found unfruitful. That was when the war was suggested. Pandavas did not have to take that path. In my humble opinion, that war of Kurukshetra had more in it than eye could see.

Sri Mohanakrishnan asked:-
“if a persons occupation(varnam) should be finalised when v know about is character...(guna karam vibha....)
when u ll know one complete character,generally at the age of 20,21..
then upto that age,what should that person do???simply playing??? wat a studpid concept!!
it means,again it is against to krishnas statement that "do ur duty dont be idle (karma pannu)"

Dronacharya, a caste Brahmin was a class mate to ‘Dirupathan’; Krishna, a Kshatriya was a class mate to kusela, a caste Brahmin. Although I am not digging for more references, I think, all the three varnas studied together the basics in the early years. Then more specialised studies were taken up in the specific fields. Was that by choice or based on birth is debatable though.

Sri Mohankrishnan’s second question :-
“in bhagavad gita,when arjuna sees huge people ,he says ,all the people were killed ,then there will be no progeny ,
there are lakhs of people,kshatriyas ,when many of them killed ,every one has family ,the family has wife ,children.
then who will protect them.so they will have extra sexual relations because no husband from that varna.....
it leads to intercaste problem(varna sankaram),so we should not fight now..

this is what arjuna said to krishna.....
y arjuna said like that becaue they were following varnashrama dharma...”

Sir, Kindly read the initial posts in this thread. Sri. Nara has explained those slokas very well.

Mohanakrishnan’s 3rd question :-
krishna says,when a person follows his own kula dharma and he is killed for that ,it is better than following
other dharma ...alway swadharmanushtanam is great!!!
y krishna said like that

Sri Mohanakrishnan,
Yes. Krishna said something very similar to that.
Atha cet tvam imam dharmyam sangramam na karisyasi
Tatah sva-dharmam kirtim ca hitva papam avapsyasi – BG – 2:33
Here Krishna says to Arjuna, if he withdrew from fighting, he would lose his sva-dharmam and reputation and fame and incur sin!
This is a very pointed question from Sri. Mohanakrishnan. If Krishna did not believe in birth based varna classifications, in his pep talk to Arjuna, Krishna need not mention about Sva-dharma.
Sri. Mohanakrishnan, I don’t have a proper answer to this question. Hopefully others may have a proper reply.

The final bit in your post is beyond my understanding. Personally, I believe that everyone belongs to every varna at different times, as I explained my views in a different post in this same thread.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy,

Really nice and thoughtful of you.

Dont you think you answered your own question" Who Is a Brahmanan?"

Sow. Sri. Renukakarthikayan,

Thank you. No. I have not answered that question yet. There is a long way to go. Thanks for your encouragements.

 

[renuka]

"When adharma prevails,O Krishna, women of the family stray from virtue and when they are unchaste,O descendent of Vrishni there is generated an unholy mixture of classes(varnasankar)"

a nice explanation is given by Paramhansa Swami Adgadanand in Yatharth Geeta.

"When unrighteous ways dominate a family, its women lose their chastity and there arises an intermingling of different classes,of incompatible cultures and way of living.
According to Arjuna, this sinful intermingling occurs when women lose their virtue.
But Krishna contradicts this" I am fully contented in the Self and there is nothing more precious which is beyond My reach.Yet I continue to practise meditation and renunciation and urge others to do the same.But these are only means and not the goal, and when the goal is achieved who cares for the means?
So if the achiever such as I neglets the means, his followers of an inferior merit will emulate him and they too will give up the required means.
Confused and misled from the path of Self Realization, they then perish.
Lacking in true achievement,they only swagger emptily as if they were perfect.
This imitation creates a chaos. There remains no distinction between the deserving and the underserving.This confusion is Varnasankar ans the teacher himself is held responsible for this disorder.That is why an ideal teacher always teaches by his own conduct."

 

[Nara]

Dear Mr. BR:

Greetings!

First, let me tell you there was no need for you to hide behind a misleading screen name and try to pass off as a Hindu who respects Jesus as one of the many gods. I have seen pictures of Jesus in one of my Iyer friends who, while not orthodox, but definitely a Hindu without believing all the theistic Christian dogma.

You could have come in openly as a Christian and sought out a debate on issues. You would have been welcome with open arms as we are trying to do right now. In fact, my own personal heathenistic views are not very popular here, but they show me every deference that an open person can hope for. So, before we begin let me welcome you to the sunshine.

Alright, I think there are three parts to this discussion of merits between Hinduism and Christianity, namely, (i) underlying philosophical foundation, (ii) "historical" traditions, and (iii) current practices. You have covered all three in one way or another in your long critique of Hinduism. I wish to take these three one by one.

Let us start with the philosophical foundation. This sounds rather ambitious. I am not intending to cover everything here. I will restrict myself to the most important aspect of any religious philosophy, namely, the nature of soul and மோக்ஷோபாயா. If I get any detail wrong I welcome any member to correct me -- that is an opportunity for me to learn.

In Hindu/Vedic philosophy, even though there are many differences among the various schools, there is agreement on a few fundamentals. They are,

1. all jeevas are destined to மோக்ஷம்
2. jeeva take many births due to their own karma
3. during their lives the good and bad that happen to them are not capricious, but result from ones own accumulated karma

When it comes to the means to moksham, different schools have different views. But there is no difference that all jeevas will attain mOksham at one time or another.

Now, my understanding of Christian/biblical view, I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong,

1. jeevas are created by god
2. these jeevas come with original sin
3. this original sin comes from Adam and Eve disobeying god
4. Jesus gave his life on the cross for the sake of the jeevas to get moksham (heaven)
5. to get to moksham you have to accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accept Jesus as your savior
6. you accept Jesus as your savior through baptism -- there may be some difference here among evangelicals, even so, I think the belief that for moksham you must accept that Jesus gave his life on the cross for your sins is common to all denominations
7. since there is no reincarnation, this mokshopaya is available only till you die, after that you have to wait till judgment day, and then go to heaven or hell depending upon whether you have adopted the mOkshpaya
8. if you don't accept Jesus as the savior, after the end days, you will be sent to hell where you will burn for eternity

If you buy into the Hindu/Vedic belief system, then there is not a whole lot of criticism that can be laid on the theoretical aspects. If you have any criticism on the theory, please let me know.

Of course when it comes to practice there are some problems, but we have to first complete this discussion on the theoretical concepts. We will get to the other parts after that.

However, there are a lot of nagging questions with regard to Christian system. I give you a few below.

1. When creating the jeevas why does god bestow original sin on the jeeva? After all, he/she did not have anything to do with Adam and Eve.
   
2. Why are there differences among human beings, some are rich, some are poor, some are born healthy, some are not, etc.?
   
3. Why would a compassionate god give just one attempt and keep the mokshopaya very hard to believe?
   
4. Why would a wise god let good people go to eternal hell because they have doubts about the authenticity of the Christian mokshopaya, given the validity of it is so unreasonable?
   
5. Would not a compassionate and wise god give as much evidence as possible to the hapless humans, and, punish them so severely as to condemn them to eternity only if they refuse to believe in spite of the mountain of evidence? Instead, all we have are second hand account recorded about 100 years after the event.

Alright, Mr. BR, I will stop here for now. After we discuss this to our mutual satisfaction we can move on to the other two parts. If you wish to add more categories I welcome that as well.

For this discussion to be coherent, we need to proceed in a serious and organized fashion. I hope you will respond with the same seriousness I have shown to your POV.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

If an immatured person could ask so many questions, what would be the questions from a matured person?ray:

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

you are absolutely correct re having respected christian members here.

i remember a year ago, we had a new member, and we were discussing some tamil hindu theology. this gentleman, initially introduced himself as a vellala catholic for generations.

he was somewhat hesitant, and with encouragement from us, we had among the most fruitful and delightful dialogues. in fact at the end of the dialogue, we hoped he would continue to be active. but his purpose was some selective information re saiva siddhantham, which he was able to get from the likes of nacchinarkiniyan among others.

i have been brought up among tamil catholics and have only the utmost respect for christians. none of these guys ever indulged in who is superior to whom arguements with me. we were friends and companions, without any hangups.

hence it is with dismay i look at sapr or brahmarishi, who appear to have an aggressive style towards hindus and brahmins in general. it appears more one of indoctrination and absolute activism, for which we have neither the patience or tolerance in this forum.

brahma, in return, to spew hatred on TBs is even more distressing, for it strips him of all appearances of decency and culture, and consigns him to the crowds found in the fish market.

jesus christ would be embarassed of such folks.

thank you.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Nara,

I am interested to read the starting of a (has a big potential to be a great) enlightening post if it is properly guided with intelligent debates. I wish it should continue to the depth for a good understanding.

Thanks.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Nara,

Sri Nara said,
Jesus gave his life on the cross for the sake of the jeevas to get moksham (heaven)

ஸ்வர்கம் and மொக்ஷம் are same or different? if different, how it is different?

or if same?

te tam bhuktvä svarga-lokam visälam
ksine punye martya-lokam visanti
evam trayi-dharmam anuprapannä
gatägatam käma-kämä labhante
BG Sloka 9.21

ksetra-ksetrainavor evam / antaram inäna-caksukä
bhüta-prakrti-moksan ca / ye vidur yänti te param

slokam 13-35

Why in our scriptures mentioned that swarga is temporary and moksha is liberation and hence permanent.

I am also confused about swarga & Naraga. I thought our soul can not feel the pain, happiness, and its emotionless. So, how the pain hell and happiness in swarga, how it will influence the soul.

Does other religion differentiates swarga & Moksha? I feel it is an important concept. I hope you can explain better. I love to read your narration.

Thanks

 

[Arthur]

Hello, friends.

If I am not mistaken, the thread said "Who is Brahmanan", not "Who is a Brahmin". Is this not correct? To continue the thread as stated, I will share the following comments:

To say, "Who is Brahman" is the same as saying, "Who am I". Well then, who am I? I do not know who I am without attributes. This is the absolute truth. This is the unknown God, the nirguna Brahman. Yes or no? Would anyone like to comment on this interpretation?

Also, the nature of Brahman is relative and absolute. Yes or no? Tell me, who among you can speak the truth? An opinion is not the truth. Yes or no? Scholarship is not Self-realization. Yes or no?

Has anyone ever heard of the word "babble"? Stop babbling amongst each other and start realizing the truth.

I welcome all responses.

 

[happyhindu]

i agree ditto with shri kunjuppu.

Jesus wud be ashamed of activists like Sapr or BR. Such people are a scar to the rest of the Christians.

the way a certain section of aggressive double-game playing christians like BR or Sapr behave, its really hard to believe they have no agenda (the agenda being conversion). Much to my dismay (and utter dislike of the self later), was not able to maintain civility with Sapr.

Have never been against conversions, and i don't think i will ever be. Its the freedom of choice.

At the same time, each time an evangelist turns up at my door and tries to convince me that i am a devil-worshipper and that Jesus is the only salvation, all i am thinking inside my head is 'don't these ppl have better things to do in life'.

Its nice to see Shri Nara engaging Sapr or BR. But i suspect it may all be futile (since BR or Sapr might not be interested in accepting the existence of an other side). Anyways, the rest of us will stand a lot to gain in terms of knowledge from Shri Nara if BR were to engage Shri Nara. Hope the conversation does take off.

 

[happyhindu]

Hello, friends.

If I am not mistaken, the thread said "Who is Brahmanan", not "Who is a Brahmin". Is this not correct? To continue the thread as stated, I will share the following comments:

To say, "Who is Brahman" is the same as saying, "Who am I". Well then, who am I? I do not know who I am without attributes. This is the absolute truth. This is the unknown God, the nirguna Brahman. Yes or no? Would anyone like to comment on this interpretation?

Also, the nature of Brahman is relative and absolute. Yes or no? Tell me, who among you can speak the truth? An opinion is not the truth. Yes or no? Scholarship is not Self-realization. Yes or no?

Has anyone ever heard of the word "babble"? Stop babbling amongst each other and start realizing the truth.

I welcome all responses.

Arthur,

We are hoping for a conversation b/w BR and Shri Nara.

You have asked question like Yes or No as though they are the only 2 "answers". Obviously you know it will lead to a bigger conversation, and possibly something that may distract from the one that Shri Nara and BR are going to engage in.

so i feel others can reserve their comments to your queries later (that is, they can be reserved for an engaging conversation later).

regards.

 

[RVR]

I fully endorse the views of Ms.Happy Hindu.

Let Sri Brahma Rishi reply to Prof Nara. Let both of them discuss on this thread and others watch from the sidelines.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Hello, friends.

If I am not mistaken, the thread said "Who is Brahmanan", not "Who is a Brahmin". Is this not correct? To continue the thread as stated, I will share the following comments:

To say, "Who is Brahman" is the same as saying, "Who am I". Well then, who am I? I do not know who I am without attributes. This is the absolute truth. This is the unknown God, the nirguna Brahman. Yes or no? Would anyone like to comment on this interpretation?

Also, the nature of Brahman is relative and absolute. Yes or no? Tell me, who among you can speak the truth? An opinion is not the truth. Yes or no? Scholarship is not Self-realization. Yes or no?

Has anyone ever heard of the word "babble"? Stop babbling amongst each other and start realizing the truth.

I welcome all responses.

Sri Arthur,

as the name of the thread says, this is an enquiry about 'brahmanan'. this is not about 'brahman'. In my humble opinion, the questions 'who is brahman' and 'who am I' are not the same. Those questions may be connected, but not quite the same questions. So, this thread is not about 'nirguna brahmam' either.
I can see that you have a lot of questions. But the way you placed the yes or no? at the end of every statement is slightly confusing.
I request you to state your opinions in a more simpler terms, please, so that we can have a discussion. Thank you.

 

[pvraman]

Sri Raghy,

As some of this thread readers are waiting for the discussion between Mr BR & Mr Narah, which is really going to be interesting, but at the same time, slightly deviating from this thread topic. Can it be moved to a independent thread? It would be interesting.

Regards

 

[Arthur]

Hello, Sir.

Who are you? And who is we? I guess you are here for entertainment? Do you desire for someone to bring joy to your mind?
Are you that poverty stricken? Maybe you seek some "respect"?

Tell me, my friend, what is it? Did I disturb someone's brilliant discourse? Brahmin or Chandala all are equal in my eyes. How about yours? I wash everyone's feet, but never to please. How about you?

Maybe we should start our own intelligent discourse. Let us call it, "How to Love Versus How to Talk". What do you say?

 

[pvraman]

Dear Mr Arthur.

Hello, Sir.

Who are you? And who is we? I guess you are here for entertainment? Do you desire for someone to bring joy to your mind?

I am not able to understand why you have written like this? Is Joy really a WASTU?

Are you that poverty stricken?

:nono:
Maybe you seek some "respect"?

Its automatic


Tell me, my friend, what is it? Did I disturb someone's brilliant discourse?



Brahmin or Chandala all are equal in my eyes. How about yours?

Brahmin is there.Who is Chandala now?

I wash everyone's feet, but never to please. How about you?

:angel:

Maybe we should start our own intelligent discourse.

We are looking forward to it. But confused with your post and your requirement


Let us call it, "How to Love Versus How to Talk". What do you say?

Please one question at a time..

Regards

 

[Raghy]

For the members who are eagerly waiting for a discussion with Sri. Nara, I am afraid, your wait will be very very long. As I anticipated, the decoy is here to upset the harmony. I just happen to know the way these things work. Blasphemy laws were made to stop people like Sri. Nara asking questions. The questions asked by Sri. Nara have never been answered. The persons who asked those questions were killed to maintain silence.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Arthur Ji,

Welcome to the forum and I am glad to see that you are posting your views.

This site has been in existence for some time and so we have covered a lot of topics, including this one in the past. I would encourage you to go and look up those in our archives.

Your stance seems to be from the Advaitha school. Please understand we have here folks reflecting all schools of thought within the school of Hinduism.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Raghy ji,

I have been following the conversations here very closely. While it was on occassion temting to jump in to discuss the points raised by both Sri BR Ji and Prof. Nara Ji, I also restrained myself, preferring to see where this would lead.

I do not think though your assessment is correct. Give Sri BR Ji a few days time, he will show up again to continue the conversation.

If he does not, then it is his loss. We will move forward.

Even though the conversation got a bit too personal at times, overall the flow was good and I did not want to interrupt with any moderation.

Regards,
KRS

For the members who are eagerly waiting for a discussion with Sri. Nara, I am afraid, your wait will be very very long. As I anticipated, the decoy is here to upset the harmony. Sri RVR, Sow.Sri. Renukakarthikayan, I just happen to know the way these things work. Blasphemy laws were made to stop people like Sri. Nara asking questions. The questions asked by Sri. Nara have never been answered. The persons who asked those questions were killed to maintain silence.