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Who was 'that' Rama?

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Is Valmiki Ramayana the ultimate proof of so many Ramayanas? After all, it is one such version.
 
ISCKON says this:


Why did Lord Ramachandra worship Siva?​

He (Lord Krsna and Lord Rama) likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father?
They say [in] the Valmiki Ramayana, there is no such incidence as Ramacandra worships Siva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here? (room conversation, Dec 23, 1975 Mumbai)

Mahabharata, Shanti Parva (12.328.5 onwards, dialogue between Lord Krishna and Arjuna):

brAhme rAtrikShaye prApte tasya hy amitatejasaH prasAdAtprAdurabhavatpadmaM padmanibhekShaNa tatra brahmA samabhavatsa tasyaiva prasAdajaH

In the brahma muhurta, at the end of the night, due to the mercy of the extremely brilliant Lord, a lotus emerged from His navel and in that lotus, Brahma was born, ofcourse, due to His grace.


ahnaH kShaye lalAtAchcha suto devasya vai tathA krodhAviShTasya sa~njaGYe rudraH saMhAra kArakaH etau dvau vibudhashreShThau prasAdakrodhajau smR^itau


At the end of the day, the Lord [present as antaryAmi of Brahma *] created Rudra out of krodha-guna, to enable him to be the 'samhara-karta'. Thus, these two 'fine-among-wise', Brahma and Rudra, are known to have been born out of grace and anger respectively.
* This interpretation is necessary because in the later sections of Moksadharma, Brahma addresses Rudra as a son.


tadAdeshita panthAnau sR^iShTi saMhAra kArakau nimittamAtraM tAvatra sarvaprAni varapradau

Thus, they carry out the instructed tasks of creation and destruction. However, they, the givers of boons to all the creatures, are just the agents.


kapardI jatilo mundaH shmashAnagR^ihasevakaH ugravratadharo rudro yogI tripuradAruNaH dakShakratuharashchaiva bhaga netraharastathA


[Rudra has] braided hair with knot of an ascetic and rest of the head bald. He dwells in the home of graveyard, steadfast on vigorous penance as a yogi. He is ferocious to Tripurasuras, destroyed Daksayajna and took away the eyes of Bhaga.


nArAyaNAtmako GYeyaH pANDaveya yuge yuge

O Arjuna, know that in every yuga, Rudra is 'nArAyaNAtmaka'. (This phrase can mean: one whose indweller is Narayana, one who is always immersed in Narayana.)


tasmin hi pUjyamAne vai devadeve maheshvare sampUjito bhavetpArtha devo nArAyaNaH prabhuH

It is the Lord, the prabhu, the Narayana *IN* Maheshvara (the worshipable, the lord of the devas), who is actually worshiped.

ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH

O son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and the worlds. Therefore, I worship myself first, even when I worship Rudra. If I did not worship Rudra, the bestower of boons, in such a way (i.e., worshiping the indwelling Lord first), some would not worship Me, the indwelling Lord, at all - this is my opinion.


mayA pramANaM hi kR^itaM lokaH samanuvartate pramAnAni hi pUjyAni tatastaM pUjayAmyaham


Whatever I follow and give due worth as a pramaNa, the world follows that. Such pramanas have to be duly followed; therefore I follow them.


yastaM vetti sa mAM vetti yo.anu taM sa hi mAm anu rudro nArAyaNashchaiva sattvamekaM dvidhAkR^itam loke charati kaunteya vyakti sthaM sarvakarmasu


Whoever knows him, knows Me. Whoever follows him, follows Me. (Though) the world, in all its actions, worships two gods, Rudra and Narayana, it is actually one only who is worshiped.


na hi me kenachid deyo varaH pANDavanandana iti sa~ncintya manasA purANaM vishvamIshvaram putrArthaM ArAdhitavAn AtmAnaM aham AtmanA

O Son of Pandu, there is, of course, nobody who can grant Me boons. Knowing that well, I worhip Myself, Who am the beginningless and universal power, known as Sarveshvara, for the sake of getting sons.


na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham


Indeed Vishnu does not bow to any one and [even when He bows to Himself], for what sake, but for the sake of showing the path to the wise. Therefore, it is the truth that I worship myself even when I worship Rudra.




http://www.iskcondesiretree.com/forum/topics/why-did-lord-rama-worship-lord-siva



 
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Raji Ram said:
Dear Renu,

Each bhakthA will say that his God / Goddess is the most powerful.

Click to expand...

Dear RR ji,

just like little boys who say "my father is stronger than your dad" and then the kids fight with each other..or little girls saying 'my mother is more beautiful than your mother"

I remember when my son was in kindergarten..his class teacher asked him and other kids a question 'am I more beautiful than your mother?"

My son cleverly replied 'you are the most beautiful teacher and my mother is the most beautiful mother"

The teacher later told us that most other kids replied that their mother is more beautiful than the teacher.

Somehow my son gave a diplomatic save answer!LOL
 
All these Siva-Vishnu and perhaps Devi problems arose, in my view, because the ancient people were less scientifically advanced and their world-view as also their knowledge about the universe and the various laws/principles according to which it seems to us to be operating, were very primitive. So their scribes, Acharyas and seers in their ignorance, somehow gave shape to many stories and the fault lies squarely with us because we continue to hold, even at the cost of crying from the roof-tops, that whatever story we believe is the only truth and that all other stories are patently false.

In such a story-infested scenario, someone could have even made yet another story saying Vishnu, Brahma, Siva, Devi, et al. were forced to worship a sudra because of some cooked up reason bordering on fantasy, and then we would have had a following for that Supreme God also!

The truth lies, perhaps, very near the two Tamil stanzas of Siva Vaakkiyar. "நட்டகல்லும் பேசுமோ நாதனுள்ளிருக்கையில்" is a point which the DRDs (Devotionally and Religiously Deluded persons) will probably take eons of time more to even recognize as a possibility. It is because religions take people away from the real GOD, though the people in general believe that religion and devotion to an external god takes them closer to their (imagined) gods.

The (imagined) God/s of the DRDs, if such gods really exist too, will be having the last laugh in this scenario, and "Samsaara" will continue!
 
sangom said:
All these Siva-Vishnu and perhaps Devi problems arose, in my view, because the ancient people were less scientifically advanced and their world-view as also their knowledge about the universe and the various laws/principles according to which it seems to us to be operating, were very primitive. So their scribes, Acharyas and seers in their ignorance, somehow gave shape to many stories and the fault lies squarely with us because we continue to hold, even at the cost of crying from the roof-tops, that whatever story we believe is the only truth and that all other stories are patently false.

In such a story-infested scenario, someone could have even made yet another story saying Vishnu, Brahma, Siva, Devi, et al. were forced to worship a sudra because of some cooked up reason bordering on fantasy, and then we would have had a following for that Supreme God also!

The truth lies, perhaps, very near the two Tamil stanzas of Siva Vaakkiyar. "நட்டகல்லும் பேசுமோ நாதனுள்ளிருக்கையில்" is a point which the DRDs (Devotionally and Religiously Deluded persons) will probably take eons of time more to even recognize as a possibility. It is because religions take people away from the real GOD, though the people in general believe that religion and devotion to an external god takes them closer to their (imagined) gods.

The (imagined) God/s of the DRDs, if such gods really exist too, will be having the last laugh in this scenario, and "Samsaara" will continue!
Click to expand...

The Good Samaritan Mahavidwan (GSM) has said it and so it must be gospel. The GSM while catching hold of the fighting kids gave a selective spank to one of the kids thinking that it will not be noticed by onlookers. The GSM appears to be ignorant of the meaning of Natta kal mentioned by sivavakkiyar. siva Vakkiyar was basically against the Smrithi (saaththirangal) enthusiasts and so he said boldly Natta kal. The natta kal was his way of referring to the Siv Ling. There can not be more apt description of the Ling worship. He further went on to say

ஓதுகின்ற வேதம் எச்சில், உள்ள மந்திரங்கள் எச்சில்,
போதகங்களான எச்சில், பூதலங்கள் ஏழும் எச்சில்,
மாதிருந்த விந்து எச்சில்,மதியும் எச்சில் ஒளியும் எச்சில்,
ஏதில் எச்சில் இல்லதில்லை இல்லை இல்லை இல்லையே.

The question is does the GSM agree with this and many other such tantric ritualistic explanations given by Siva vaakiyar?

நாதனுள்ளிருந்தால் நட்டகல்லும் பேசும். நின்ற சிலையும் பேசும்.

It is just GSM 's word against the so called DRD's word.
 
​
Those who accept what the great SivavAkkiyar said may also think about these lines:

பறைச்சியாவது ஏதடா? பணத்தியாவது ஏதடா?
இறைச்சி தோல் எலும்பிலும் இலக்கமிட்டு இருக்குதோ?
பறைச்சி போகம் வேறதோ….பணத்தி போகம் வேறதோ?
பறைச்சியும் பணத்தியும் பகுத்து பாரும் உம்முளே!
Click to expand...
Will those who like SivavAkkiyar, accept to have alliances from 'those'? :noidea:
 
Shivaraman. Had many friends with that name.

Raji Ram said:
We usually hear the story of Ramanatha Swamy temple at Rameswaram, with a connection to the epic Ramayan.

But, there is no reference to the episode of Rama praying Shiva, in Valmiki Ramayan.

So, who is 'that' Rama who prayed Shiva at Rameswaram? Has any enlightened one got the answer?

If so, please share it in this thread. All are :welcome:!
Click to expand...
 
Raji Ram said:
We usually hear the story of Ramanatha Swamy temple at Rameswaram, with a connection to the epic Ramayan.

But, there is no reference to the episode of Rama praying Shiva, in Valmiki Ramayan.

So, who is 'that' Rama who prayed Shiva at Rameswaram? Has any enlightened one got the answer?

If so, please share it in this thread. All are :welcome:!
Click to expand...

Who was 'that' Rama?

Maybe Thenali 'Rama'?

From Wiki:
  1. Tenali Ramakrishna (Telugu: తెనాలి రామకృష్ణ), who was known as ... He was also known as Tenali Ramalinga, a Shaiva (Shiva-worshipping sect) name.
 
Dear Jayashree,

Since Lord Rama worshiping Lord Shiva at Rameswaram is questioned in another thread,

I started this thread to move that discussion here. But, you are kidding! :)
 
Tenal Raman's image given is Wiki surprises me!

200px-Tenali-ramalinga.jpg
 
Raji Ram said:
Dear Jayashree,

Since Lord Rama worshiping Lord Shiva at Rameswaram is questioned in another thread,

I started this thread to move that discussion here. But, you are kidding! :)
Click to expand...

Dear Raji Madam,

The wise consider only Valmiki Ramayana to be authoritative. It is the 1st version of Ramayana to have come into circulaition/belief, and there is also a story on how Valmiki rendered the first sloka of Ramayana by divine ordinance, how he was a contemporary to Sri Rama (Lava and Kusha were born in Sri Valmiki's hermitage) and how Valmiki's Ramayana is regarded as an almost identical (and only) replca of Sri Moola Ramayana which was rendered by Sri Vishnu in his Hayagriva swaroopa.

In this Valmiki Ramayanam, Sri Rama did not worship any other deity than Narayana. (The story of SriRangam in the temples section uploaded by PJ ji, gives the story of how Sri Rama and his Ikshvaghu kula worshiped the idol of Ranganatha which was later given to Vibheeshana).

The other versions of Ramayana are from mere 'bhaktas' who were not given 'divya sakshu' (divine vision) to see through things in Ramayana like Valmiki. The reference to worship of Lord Shiva by Sri Rama is only given in these other versions which are not considered authentic works on Sri Rama and Sri Sita's story.

This is also my belief (although I trust Sri Vishnu did render stotras on Lord Shiva, only not as 'Rama').
 
Dear Jayashree,

Each sthala puraNA has more than one version! Rameswaram has one connected with the epic Ramayan.

The saivaites who believe that Sethu bridge was built by Rama will believe that He worshiped Lord Shiva. :)
 
Raji Ram said:
We usually hear the story of Ramanatha Swamy temple at Rameswaram, with a connection to the epic Ramayan.

But, there is no reference to the episode of Rama praying Shiva, in Valmiki Ramayan.

So, who is 'that' Rama who prayed Shiva at Rameswaram? Has any enlightened one got the answer?

If so, please share it in this thread. All are :welcome:!
Click to expand...

Valmeeki, true to his times, possibly, brings in Siva also in his Ramayana, vide Yuddha Kaanda, Chapter (sarga) 120.

It is very probable that with passage of time, doubts arose in the minds of the public about Rama, a Kshatriya by birth, having killed the sons of Vishravas (viz., Ravana and Kumbhakarna) as also other braahmanas who were then living in Lanka, becoming afflicted with Brahmahatyaa sin. In order to plaster up the character of Rama, who had, over time, gradually come to fill the vacancy of Vishnu's 7th. avatar, some ingenious scribe might have added the Rameshwaram myth to one of the Puranas, viz., that before proceeding to Ayodhya in his return trip, Rama made a lingam of Siva (who had brought Dasaratha, etc. in Indra's chariot to bless Rama & Lakshmana for their great achievement) and worshipped Siva so as to be fully absolved of any Brahmahatya sins. In this sense Rameswaram serves a crucial need of the Vaishnava belief system also, viz., of Rama being an avatar of Vishnu, without Brahmahatthi dosha, etc.

Hence that Rama from Mulayam's state is this Rama in JJ's land, I feel!
 
Valmiki Ramayana is believed to be the most authentic version of Ramayana which does not mention about Sri Rama worshipping Lord Shiva at Rameswaram

There is a mention of Sage Agastya advises Rama to recites the 'Aditya Hridaya', a collection of verses in praise of the sun-god, with a view to gaining victory .



(Valmiki Ramayana - Yuddha Kanda in Prose Sarga 105)
 
Lord Shiva has the name Ramanathan and hence should be the nathan of one Rama.

Search is still on............. :)
 
P.J. said:
Valmiki Ramayana is believed to be the most authentic version of Ramayana which does not mention about Sri Rama worshipping Lord Shiva at Rameswaram

There is a mention of Sage Agastya advises Rama to recites the 'Aditya Hridaya', a collection of verses in praise of the sun-god, with a view to gaining victory .



(Valmiki Ramayana - Yuddha Kanda in Prose Sarga 105)
Click to expand...

Correct...
 
Raji Ram said:
Dear Jayashree,

Since Lord Rama worshiping Lord Shiva at Rameswaram is questioned in another thread,

I started this thread to move that discussion here. But, you are kidding! :)
Click to expand...

It is good that you moved the discussion. Otherwise many people who are now posting questioning the story would have been annihilated. LOL.:lol:
 
In this Valmiki Ramayanam, Sri Rama did not worship any other deity than Narayana.

If Rama is an avatar of Narayana (probably other name is Vishnu), how is it possible? Is it that Shiva's other name is Narayana.
 
Raji Ram said:
Lord Shiva has the name Ramanathan and hence should be the nathan of one Rama.

Search is still on............. :)
Click to expand...

But we can get a good reply from a non-controversial, straight forward and plain speaking Tamil rationalist, who is well versed in Ramayana.
 
Rameswara means "Lord of Rama" in Sanskrit, an epithet of Shiva, the presiding deity of the Ramanathaswamy Temple.[SUP][/SUP] According to Hindu epic Ramayana, Rama, the seventh avatar of the god Vishnu, prayed to Shiva here to absolve any sins that he might have committed during his war against the demon-king Ravana in Sri Lanka.[SUP][/SUP] According to the Puranas (Hindu scriptures), upon the advice of sages, Rama along with his wife Sita and his brother Lakshmana, installed and worshipped the lingam (an iconic symbol of Shiva) here to expiate the sin of Brahmahatya incurred while killing of the Brahmin Ravana. To worship Shiva, Rama wanted to have the largest lingam and directed his monkey lieutenant Hanuman to bring it from Himalayas. Since it took longer to bring the lingam, Sita built a small lingam, which is believed to be the one in the sanctum of the temple.[SUP][/SUP] This account is not supported by the original Ramayana authored by Valmiki, nor in the Tamil version of the Ramayana authored by Tamil poet, Kambar (1180–1250 CE). Support for this account is found in some of the later versions of the Ramayana, such as the one penned by Tulasidas (15th century).[SUP][/SUP] Sethu Karai is a place 22 km before the island of Rameswaram from where Rama is believed to have built a floating stone bridge, the Ramsetu bridge, that further continued to Dhanushkodi in Rameswaram till Talaimannar in Sri Lanka. According to another version, as quoted in Adhyatma Ramayana, Rama installed the lingam before the construction of the bridge to Lanka.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameswaram
 
Dear Prasad Sir,

We all read Wikipedia to get details. Since Valmiki has not mentioned about Rama's worship to Shiva, a member here believes

that the name Raman in Ramanathan MAY be that of a King . Since some versions of Ramayana mention about Rama's worship,

those versions are believed by some people! And, belief is the base for bhakthi, imho. :)
 
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