Who was 'that' Rama?

[renuka]

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No. Bhakthi is akin to a child's love for his parent. When a child knows, it loves.

.

Ok lets view it this way.

A child you say loves its parents after knowing it.

A alcoholic loves his alcohol after knowing it too.

So here both the child and alcoholic "know' what they like.

Next coming to God..Bhakti cultivates the earning for something we do not really know.

As we go on in life we realize we do not really know God in any sense..whatever we know is what we have been conditioned to think and also some amount of supersensory incidences are possible(this I do not deny)...but still is that enough for us? How can we fall "in love" with something we do not really know?

Krishna Himself clearly says in Geeta that among the thousands that strive to know Him hardly one truly knows Him..so why go round chasing something I do not know?

Its not that I do not like the idea of God but He needs to be "real' for me to have Bhakti..right now everything feels "unreal"..so Bhakti comes to a stand still.Logic too can not be applied anymore cos logic cant prove God and Bhakti does not really lead anyone anywhere.

So what remains? Nothing!

 

[a-TB]

Mr/Mrs/Miss a-TB,

Thank you for the lecturing.

Please read the thread Think or Stink carefully once more. Note down the chronological order of the posts. somebody said Rama worshiped Siva at Rameswaram. I said Valmiki or Kamba Ramayana which are the authentic texts available from which the various episodes of Rama's time are known today, have no where mentioned that Rama worshipped Siva and I asked for the reference if there is any. I did not start the argument for any needling this time. It was a plain questioning of a lie posted here. And then hell broke lose. And we are all here lecturing left and right. I was threatened with annihilation by a senior member in the forum. She went to the extent of calling me names --a stalker who stalked her trying to know her phone number and identity, a dirty God who took avatars to come back again and again to torment her here etc., etc., The pity is that those who come here now to lecture because of a no-nonsense fight that I have deliberately taken up, were no where there with their advices/lectures to that senior member even after days of her post. Praveen had been thoughtful and deleted that post quietly (without advising the member about her misdemeanor) which he does rarely (he uses red ink to first chastise and warn which he did not do this time). And 'a TB' was no where near the scene when I was abused.

Let me make it clear.

I have nothing against any vedic god. I do not belong to any kazhagam. But barbs at vaishnavas will be instantly understood and replied to. I have friends who are smarthas. We engage in decent exchange of arguments in other forums.

A 'put down' does not require a definition. It is understood by every one well

For 'the right response' also there can not be any definition.

A put down when presented should be pointed out by the forum manager. But as he is pressed for time many a time it goes unnoticed by him. When some one decides enough is enough and responds, further put-downs follow and it becomes an issue.

I do not care as long as intelligent and matured people in this forum understand my fight for justice.

I intend to follow the following method of defence in future:

The first time an arrow is shot at vaishnavam, I will identify it as one copy paste it and point out by just a word Arrow No.1. When the next arrow comes I will identify the same way and say Arrow No.2. and when the third one comes I will again identify it as arrow No.3 and then start my counter. I hope this keep people forewarned.

Dear Mr Vaagmi:

I have been escalated to be a lecturer - wow. Now I have reached a new milestone!

Q1) If there are many versions of Ramayana with its own followers (like Tulsi Ramayana as someone pointed out) why do you instantly ascribe motives and say they are lying? Accusation of lying takes attention away from a topic and is a serious accusation and provocation at a personal level - dont you think??
Q2) If a person did not respond for any reason, what is achieved by asking the same question again and again? There are times you did not respond to my questions (thinking perhaps that you already answered it).

I do agree that accusation of stalking etc is a serious allegation but the removal of the said post is a form of retraction regardless of how that removal happened. Why not accept that as a form of regret and move on?

Q3) Why do you any opposing views about a God that is common to so many people (Vaishnava, Smartha) is something against Vaishnavism. I am saying this without knowing what Vaishnavism is in depth, though I have been to Vaishanava temple in NY. I have Iyangar friends who actually celebrate Sivarathri in temples.

You have not shown why a belief in some version of history of Ramesvaram should lead to logical conclusion that it is an attack on Vaishanvism. It need not be a lie. It could be their version of history.

Valmiki Ramayana is full of unbelievable descriptions (planes, missiles etc) - how do you know the original description of the war was not altered. If alterations is a possibility it is hard to reorder historical events.

Statements like 'stalking' is unfair accusation which is fully retracted now. Mrs VR is not coming to other threads to bring it up - so cant we drop this all get along ??

 

[Vaagmi]

I have no sympathies with any side - simply that if a person has a god in his style or worship (even a cult) he can maintain that within his religious group. Why come and put the other side down like Mr Vaagmi and Mr Chandru do periodically? They both say it is because they were provoked first which to my limited knowledge does not make sense.

You may do a simple exercise. Take down the posting date and time of every such put down and tabulate it. It will be revealing. But you will not admit it. For you the false equivalence between the victim and tormentor is sacrosanct. You can go on lecturing. Yes it is your right. Lecturing is not a dirty word- at least in my dictionary, and involves no escalation.

 

[prasad1]

Statements like 'stalking' is unfair accusation which is fully retracted now. Mrs VR is not coming to other threads to bring it up - so cant we drop this all get along ??

a-TBJI,
A well written post.
When you have tiger by the tail, you can not afford to leave it, at the same time you can not control it.
The victim mentality expressed by some members by attacking others belief is instinctive and may not be rational.

I have been to Vaishanava temple in NY. I have Iyangar friends who actually celebrate Sivarathri in temples.

I have been to Ranganatha Temple in NY. The people who chant selected from the audience must not have visited a temple with Shiva. A friend of mine relocated to white plains NY, from Bridgewater NJ. He is well versed in the same chanting was not allowed to join, because he had been to Bridewater temple.
So discrimination is rampant and open.

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Mr Vaagmi:

I have been escalated to be a lecturer - wow. Now I have reached a new milestone!

Q1) If there are many versions of Ramayana with its own followers (like Tulsi Ramayana as someone pointed out) why do you instantly ascribe motives and say they are lying? Accusation of lying takes attention away from a topic and is a serious accusation and provocation at a personal level - dont you think??
Q2) If a person did not respond for any reason, what is achieved by asking the same question again and again? There are times you did not respond to my questions (thinking perhaps that you already answered it).

I do agree that accusation of stalking etc is a serious allegation but the removal of the said post is a form of retraction regardless of how that removal happened. Why not accept that as a form of regret and move on?

Q3) Why do you any opposing views about a God that is common to so many people (Vaishnava, Smartha) is something against Vaishnavism. I am saying this without knowing what Vaishnavism is in depth, though I have been to Vaishanava temple in NY. I have Iyangar friends who actually celebrate Sivarathri in temples.

4.You have not shown why a belief in some version of history of Ramesvaram should lead to logical conclusion that it is an attack on Vaishanvism. It need not be a lie. It could be their version of history.

5.Valmiki Ramayana is full of unbelievable descriptions (planes, missiles etc) - how do you know the original description of the war was not altered. If alterations is a possibility it is hard to reorder historical events.

6.Statements like 'stalking' is unfair accusation which is fully retracted now. Mrs VR is not coming to other threads to bring it up - so cant we drop this all get along ??

No escalation. Commenting about Lecturing is not equivalent to annihilation. Period.

Q1. I asked for the reference again and again and only when it was not forthcoming from the poster I called it a lie. Please read the posts once more. How many such requests should I make to read again? For five minutes remove your bias and read the posts carefully and then come here to tell me what is right and wrong.

Q2. Just reminder. Did I not answer your question? This is the second time I hear this from you and I answer it. Please refer to the relevant post and then complain if your question was not answered. If it remains so please let me know the question and give the link. I will read and then get back to you.

Q3. When did I say that. Please give me the quote, reference no. etc., I will deal with it. I have nothing against the saivism. Nothing against the smartha cult either. any objections?

4. Who is bothered who worshiped whom. I am not. But I believe innuendos should have no place in this forum. When one is dished out I object. I will continue to object. You are also welcome to do that.

5. So let us burn all the copies of Valmiki Ramayana. Then write out a new Keemayana and publish it after whitewashing all dark passages in the Ramayana. Keeping with times we can even add a story line that once in their youth Rama and Ravana were great friends and one day when they were eating masal dosa in Ratna Cafe in Triplicane, Chennai they quarreled over the size of the dosa served and from then on they were enemies.(Already we know, thanks to learned scholars here, that Rama and Ravana were relatives.)

6. If you had come with this statement earlier it would have been nice. Now it does not lie with you to make that statement. It is too late for you . You are complicit by default.

 

[Vaagmi]

So what remains? Nothing!

Yes from here starts Universal consciousness and all the imageries that go with it. A clever marketing ploy for the opiate. LOL.

 

[sangom]

Dear Mr Sangom - Just replied to your post in the other thread. I had no intention to chastise anyone, certainly not you! I am not a vaishnavite, just come from a smartha family. But I have limited exposure to our scriptures compared to many here.

I have no sympathies with any side - simply that if a person has a god in his style or worship (even a cult) he can maintain that within his religious group. Why come and put the other side down like Mr Vaagmi and Mr Chandru do periodically? They both say it is because they were provoked first which to my limited knowledge does not make sense.

Dear Shri a-TB,

Please see the highlighted sentence. My own assessment is that putting down the other's faith intentionally, gives some pleasure to some people and they have enough chance to point the accusing finger at some post somewhere. Unless Shri Praveen intervenes and puts a stop to the saiva-vaishnava arguments, it may not be possible to control the state of affairs.

Will Shri Praveen look into this?

 

[Raji Ram]

My request for eace: has absolutely NO effect!

There is a note in the Religion forum like this:

Religion

Please do not use this forum to engage in discussions against any particular religion or caste. Such topics will be promptly deleted.

Does this note give liberty to accuse one another in G D forum? :noidea:

 

[Raji Ram]

Ok.. Back to the basics.

Who was that Other Rama...?

:noidea: So far!

 

[sangom]

Dear Mr Sangom - Just replied to your post in the other thread. I had no intention to chastise anyone, certainly not you! I am not a vaishnavite, just come from a smartha family. But I have limited exposure to our scriptures compared to many here.

I have no sympathies with any side - simply that if a person has a god in his style or worship (even a cult) he can maintain that within his religious group. Why come and put the other side down like Mr Vaagmi and Mr Chandru do periodically? They both say it is because they were provoked first which to my limited knowledge does not make sense.

Dear Shri a-TB,

Please see the highlighted sentence. My own assessment is that putting down the other's faith intentionally, gives some pleasure to some people and they have enough chance to point the accusing finger at some post somewhere. Unless Shri Praveen intervenes and puts a stop to the saiva-vaishnava arguments, it may not be possible to control the state of affairs.

Will Shri Praveen look into this?

 

[yesmohan]

Lord Rama is not an exclusive God to Vaishnavaites only.He is worshipped by all smarthas also.The fight seems to be personally motivated ego clashes of so called intelligents of the forum. I am ashamed to see the in fight in the forum.

 

[yesmohan]

Saiva-Vaishnava arguments is a shameful argument at this juncture when all Brahmins are branded as "PAARPPAANS" and brahmin boys are given shabby treatment by other caste students at Schools and Colleges. First grade Enemies to Brahmins are Brahmins only and any other outsiders.

 

[a-TB]

No escalation. Commenting about Lecturing is not equivalent to annihilation. Period.

Q1. I asked for the reference again and again and only when it was not forthcoming from the poster I called it a lie. Please read the posts once more. How many such requests should I make to read again? For five minutes remove your bias and read the posts carefully and then come here to tell me what is right and wrong.

Q2. Just reminder. Did I not answer your question? This is the second time I hear this from you and I answer it. Please refer to the relevant post and then complain if your question was not answered. If it remains so please let me know the question and give the link. I will read and then get back to you.

Q3. When did I say that. Please give me the quote, reference no. etc., I will deal with it. I have nothing against the saivism. Nothing against the smartha cult either. any objections?

4. Who is bothered who worshiped whom. I am not. But I believe innuendos should have no place in this forum. When one is dished out I object. I will continue to object. You are also welcome to do that.

5. So let us burn all the copies of Valmiki Ramayana. Then write out a new Keemayana and publish it after whitewashing all dark passages in the Ramayana. Keeping with times we can even add a story line that once in their youth Rama and Ravana were great friends and one day when they were eating masal dosa in Ratna Cafe in Triplicane, Chennai they quarreled over the size of the dosa served and from then on they were enemies.(Already we know, thanks to learned scholars here, that Rama and Ravana were relatives.)

6. If you had come with this statement earlier it would have been nice. Now it does not lie with you to make that statement. It is too late for you . You are complicit by default.

Mr Vaagmi:

From what I understood there is no obligation for anyone to respond to anyone. Viewers and you can reach conclusions based on lack of response also.

Therefore calling it a lie is an escalation and an attack (questioning the character of the poster) - I bolded the part I am referring to. It is about going from discussions of a topic to attacking a person.

In an era of free speech morons are not excluded! So item 5 you have stated can happen. But people who write persuasively will always stand out.

Item 6: I had a question for you earlier. If you have a habit of attacking others when they differ with you, how can you expect instant support when you feel you are wronged? I made this statement earlier which is an acknowledgement that you were wronged

Item 2: Question was about surrender. You mentioned about keeping your ego intact - alive and kicking. Then when you said you did total surrender, what does that mean? What did you give up? Why? Our ego is about what we are and what we own in my limited understanding. So you gave up nothing. How do you answer this? Please do not ask me to some links - Just answer if you can

Item 3: A question: What is Vaishnavism other than Vishnu worship and some traditions? Is that always against Saivism even though you may not be against Saivism? Can it co-exist with Saivism? Why not?

Thanks

 

[prasad1]

This Anti-Shiva, Vaisnavaism (Iyyamgars) is exclusive to south Indian Brahmins.

 

[Raji Ram]

This Anti-Shiva, Vaisnavaism (Iyyamgars) is exclusive to south Indian Brahmins.

Dear Prasad Sir,

Please do not generalize. I have both types of friends in my circle. The staunch Iyengars and the not-so-strict ones.
Many Iyyengar students learn songs on Lord Shiva, Murugan and Ambal and also sport vibhooti. ray2:

 

[renuka]

This Anti-Shiva, Vaisnavaism (Iyyamgars) is exclusive to south Indian Brahmins.

True...there is a Laxmi Narayan North Indian temple in Msia and Shivaratri is celebrated on a grand scale in the temple.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Prasad Sir,

Please do not generalize. I have both types of friends in my circle. The staunch Iyengars and the not-so-strict ones.
Many Iyyengar students learn songs on Lord Shiva, Murugan and Ambal and also sport vibhooti. ray2:

A would-be professional singer has to learn each and every aspect, including various songs, which is not a new thing, in order to survive.

For most of the already established singers from Vaishnava background, the Guru happens to be a Smartha, from the earlier years to present one - Mudikondan Venkatarama Iyer, Musiri, PSN, BV Raman and BV Lakshman, MLV etc.

Though Jesudas is a Christian, his carnatic recitals are mostly based only on Hindu Gods - a perfect secular person.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri a-TB,

Please see the highlighted sentence. My own assessment is that putting down the other's faith intentionally, gives some pleasure to some people and they have enough chance to point the accusing finger at some post somewhere. Unless Shri Praveen intervenes and puts a stop to the saiva-vaishnava arguments, it may not be possible to control the state of affairs.

Will Shri Praveen look into this?

Dear Sangom ji,

The Vaishnava-Shaiva battle goes on even in other forums..I can safely say that the debates here are still "tolerable".

I used to be a member of another forum before where the ISCKON vs rest of the world debate used to be fiery and ISCKONites used to jump at every opportunity to comment harshly on other modes of worship.

So comparatively Non ISCKON Vaishanavas are still very much more 'gentle'LOL

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Dear Sangom ji,

The Vaishnava-Shaiva battle goes on even in other forums..I can safely say that the debates here are still "tolerable".

I used to be a member of another forum before where the ISCKON vs rest of the world debate used to be fiery and ISCKONites used to jump at every opportunity to comment harshly on other modes of worship.

So comparatively Non ISCKON Vaishanavas are still very much more 'gentle'LOL

What is the name of that forum?

 

[renuka]

What is the name of that forum?

I wont write it here cos I was banned from there!LOL

 

[Vaagmi]

Mr Vaagmi:

1. From what I understood there is no obligation for anyone to respond to anyone. Viewers and you can reach conclusions based on lack of response also.

2. Therefore calling it a lie is an escalation and an attack (questioning the character of the poster) - I bolded the part I am referring to. It is about going from discussions of a topic to attacking a person.

3. In an era of free speech morons are not excluded! So item 5 you have stated can happen. But people who write persuasively will always stand out.

Item 6: I had a question for you earlier. If you have a habit of attacking others when they differ with you, how can you expect instant support when you feel you are wronged? I made this statement earlier which is an acknowledgement that you were wronged

Item 2: Question was about surrender. You mentioned about keeping your ego intact - alive and kicking. Then when you said you did total surrender, what does that mean? What did you give up? Why? Our ego is about what we are and what we own in my limited understanding. So you gave up nothing. How do you answer this? Please do not ask me to some links - Just answer if you can

Item 3: A question: What is Vaishnavism other than Vishnu worship and some traditions? Is that always against Saivism even though you may not be against Saivism? Can it co-exist with Saivism? Why not?

Thanks

Mr/Mrs/Miss a-TB,

1. There is no disagreement with this.

2. You may be able to put up with a lot lies told day in and day out. But I can not. That is me and perhaps you. In order not to offend a poster I do not put up with a lie told here. The poster also owes it to the members here (including silent members who do not come here to post for various reasons) to be honest. If you think calling a lie a lie is an attack, it is just your opinion. I have nothing more to say about that. You can enjoy the lies told here and try telling a few to entertain others.

3. Moron is an attack on the unknown keemayana writer. You are trying to preempt his creative output. He/she may meet your standards of persuasiveness also. I object to your attack.

4. (item 6) I am not standing for an election here. I do not believe in ganging up. I prefer to fight my battles alone. When a wrong is happening and you are witnessing it, to keep silent is a sin. I just said that about you when you very condescendingly offered your sympathy. I just said,please keep it because you are already complicit.

5. (item 2) That question, when taken up again by you, was well answered. You have a tendency to just hang on to what you wrote here without bothering to read the replies fully. It is your problem. To put it succinctly, surrender happens when your ego is effaced completely. I was telling that the ego remains in tact in those who do not surrender. You got it all wrong perhaps.

6. (item 3) Vaishnavam is not against any ism as long as the isms keep to their business faithfully within their four walls. When they come and attack vaishnavam, vaishnavam will defend itself very effectively. Co-existence is possible only when your neighbour does not nurse a secret desire to snipe at you frequently.

I do not intend to answer you indefinitely as you appear to be prejudiced - that is as long as you do not take your rifle and snipe at your neighbor living peacefully next door. LOL.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

I wont write it here cos I was banned from there!LOL

For supporting Krishna.

 

[Vaagmi]

This Anti-Shiva, Vaisnavaism (Iyyamgars) is exclusive to south Indian Brahmins.

That is because you do not come across people in North ranting about how they are "broadminded" because they keep names like Narayana and how Iyengars do not keep names like Mahadevan.

 

[renuka]

For supporting Krishna.

Nope...not for that..I got into a fight with a senior member!LOL

 

[a-TB]

Mr/Mrs/Miss a-TB,

1. There is no disagreement with this.

2. You may be able to put up with a lot lies told day in and day out. But I can not. That is me and perhaps you. In order not to offend a poster I do not put up with a lie told here. The poster also owes it to the members here (including silent members who do not come here to post for various reasons) to be honest. If you think calling a lie a lie is an attack, it is just your opinion. I have nothing more to say about that. You can enjoy the lies told here and try telling a few to entertain others.

3. Moron is an attack on the unknown keemayana writer. You are trying to preempt his creative output. He/she may meet your standards of persuasiveness also. I object to your attack.

4. (item 6) I am not standing for an election here. I do not believe in ganging up. I prefer to fight my battles alone. When a wrong is happening and you are witnessing it, to keep silent is a sin. I just said that about you when you very condescendingly offered your sympathy. I just said,please keep it because you are already complicit.

5. (item 2) That question, when taken up again by you, was well answered. You have a tendency to just hang on to what you wrote here without bothering to read the replies fully. It is your problem. To put it succinctly, surrender happens when your ego is effaced completely. I was telling that the ego remains in tact in those who do not surrender. You got it all wrong perhaps.

6. (item 3) Vaishnavam is not against any ism as long as the isms keep to their business faithfully within their four walls. When they come and attack vaishnavam, vaishnavam will defend itself very effectively. Co-existence is possible only when your neighbour does not nurse a secret desire to snipe at you frequently.

I do not intend to answer you indefinitely as you appear to be prejudiced - that is as long as you do not take your rifle and snipe at your neighbor living peacefully next door. LOL.

Mr Vaagmi - You now claim I am prejudiced because I am asking questions. This is not staying within the bounds of a point of discussion and resorting to attack of the person posing the questions. Again!

Item 2: There is not an universal agreement that what was said was a lie. Reasonable people can disagree about what is right historically. Tulsi Ramayan which may have come afterwards may be thought to provide missing items (by vision of Tulsi, just like it was for Valmiki). No one was there when someone called Rama came to Ramesvaram. To declare what may be honest difference of views to be a lie is resorting to personal attacks because they differ with you. Others can call your account a lie - Is that a way to debate a point? I think not.

Your item 3: I did not directly call the Keemayana writer a moron - I said even Moron has equal rights of free speech.

Item 4: You say "To put it succinctly, surrender happens when your ego is effaced completely." I wish someone can help me find your post where you did boast about how your ego is intact very much. I will find it somehow if it is not deleted. In the mean time I have given examples where you turn disagreements into attack on a person. That , my friend is a ego response! So your ego is intact and yet you say you have surrendered. It does not add up to simpleton like me. If you have surrendered completely and your ego is effaced who is remaining now and responding?? You cannot get frustrated with sincere questions.

Since you will not reply anymore I thank you for your engagement thus far