Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[sapr333]

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No one seems to know that the community which is driven by Dowry are the Kottayam Christians. Families are ruined because of dowry.

Kottayam orthodox Christians are still worse... A sect which still lives in an illusion and false belief that that St.Thomas converted 7 Brahmins, and they trace their origins that way..

There is neither a concrete evidence for St.Thomas's arrival in India nor there is no good proof that Brahmins lived in Kerala belt 2000 Years ago.

Though the dowry culture is very much there in Kerala(possibly the highest in India), interestingly, the '94 data records only 9 dowry deaths in Kerala, where as U.P records 1977deaths. This must be contradicting your point.


PS: I told you initially, that article was not wellbalanced..So, please dont take it as an attack on hinduism.. I was only sharing the satistics,and some info on the strata,where dowry deaths are prevalent..

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The problem with this kind of statistics is that most of the "Stove Bursts" in which the daughter in law dies conveniently are not reported as dowry deaths. They are reported as accidental deaths.

Some of the dowry deaths are reported. But for thousands of Indian women it is a living hell because of dowry problems.

You can not solve social problems by enacting Laws. The laws help. But they alone can not solve the social problems.

I think we can close this topic now.

 

[sapr333]

1)You can not solve social problems by enacting Laws. The laws help. But they alone can not solve the social problems.


2)I think we can close this topic now.

I agree with you on both the counts.

 

[sapr333]

I have few clarifications:-

1) Why was Gay-marriage predominent in America & why its still a taboo/rather condemnable in India? (personally, I cant accept gay marriage, cos I believe its against natures law)


2) Why Child marriage was common and acceptable norm in India, and it only,got to be abolished by a law..And still its prevailing too.... But its not the case in west?

Any reasons?

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

In some communities dowry was not viewed badly.

Whatever was given at the time of marriage to a daughter, was her share of inheritance. It was a type of division of assets. It was given away at the point of wedding so that it cud help a couple to build a life on what they received.

Weddings ofcourse were contracted b/w financially equal parties. So there was no question of having expectations beyond what cud be afforded.

Things ofcourse changed later. Business income was no longer considered stable. Same caste ppl were not on the same financial platform anymore. Some remained wealthy, some got poor. But marriages had to be contracted within the same caste; and choices got limited esp since horoscopes also had to match.

It is still common for a chetty / chettiar to have a grouse that every tom, dick and harry started doing business in 'modern times'. To nurse their ego (for lack of self-sufficiency) they too tend to blame modern living as root cause of all evil; instead of blaming the system of dowry as such.

If weddings continued b/w ppl of the same kind, then there were no probs...but probs came when bride's side wud prefer a 'better' match, meaning a family better placed than themselves (which is a common feature).

It was then that unrealistic demands wud be made by groom's party due to greed and insecurity, since they were not sure the DIL wud receive any assets or share or yearly seers befitting their expectations or 'position'; esp since the bride's party was not of the same financial status as the groom's side.

The whole dowry thing ofcourse wud have applied when women were not financially independent. Women ofcourse stopped being financially dependent on men a long time back, and if someone were to accept a proposal based on dowry (esp "unrealistic expectations kind") anymore, it wud be really crazy i guess.

 

[happyhindu]

I have few clarifications:-

1) Why was Gay-marriage predominent in America & why its still a taboo/rather condemnable in India? (personally, I cant accept gay marriage, cos I believe its against natures law)


2) Why Child marriage was common and acceptable norm in India, and it only,got to be abolished by a law..And still its prevailing too.... But its not the case in west?

Any reasons?

Gay relationships are taboo in all religious communities. It became predominant in the west after the concept of rejecting religion and adopting freedom became common. Instances of homosexuality were mentioned in old literature like kamasutra not of religious nature. Not sure if it was viewed badly or what in old india...i think the old timers were not really bothered to judge such things...btw, they say homosexuality is in the genes, so i suppose no point judging or persecuting gays..

Not sure if child marriages were common in old india..grihasta life came after brahmacharyam or student life, so the bride and groom wud hv been well into their teens. Maybe child marriages became common during the times of islamic invasion, just like sati..not sure abt this though.

 

[KRS]

Dear sapr333 Ji,

I did not respond to your postings on this thread about Kancha Illaiah's book 'Why I am not a Hindu', because at that time I had not read it. During my travels over the last few weeks I was able to acquire this book and I will be finished with reading it in a day or so.

I will share my thoughts on the book this coming week end.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Very very eagerly looking forward to it KRSji.

 

[sapr333]

Dear sapr333 Ji,

I did not respond to your postings on this thread about Kancha Illaiah's book 'Why I am not a Hindu', because at that time I had not read it. During my travels over the last few weeks I was able to acquire this book and I will be finished with reading it in a day or so.

I will share my thoughts on the book this coming week end.

Regards,
KRS

You may also read the critique, written by M.V.R.Shastry, so that you get an idea of both the views. I think he is an editor in a popular Andra Daily.

 

[KRS]

sapr333,

Here is my own critique of Kancha Illaiah's book 'Why I am not a Hindu'. I finished the whole book today, including his afterwords. I found his book very interesting. I believe that this is a seminal book of our times as it touches upon a subject of Hinduism that I think is the single most blot on our religion: the treatment of Dalits within Hinduism, as it pertains to today's culture and mores. Let me then get in to my own critique of the book:

1. First of all, I have to applaud the author for writing such a book. I would like every Hindu to read it. Because, while seriously flawed in my opinion on it's root thesis, it at least shows the right wing (the Hindutva crowd) the feeling of about 30% to 40 % of our brothers towards our religion today.

2. Unless as Brahmins we understand the underlying feelings of such people, we can not understand how to influence our religion to be united and fend off all the threats to our religion.

3. I would term this book as an ideological polemics, with little on facts and research, but big on rhetoric without any basis. The author freely draws conclusions on various aspects of Hinduism and what he calls as 'Brahminism' without any backup academic citations nor any sources. So, the work is based on what he calls as the 'experience based academics', which to me means that he did not spend adequate time in understanding what he is critiquing on the basis of various patina of experiences but rather limited to his own limited exposure.

4. This stance by the author lends itself to him making certain assumptions about Hinduism that are shocking:
a. His description of the Brahminical culture as non productive and of leisure, is directly opposite to what he wants the DalitBhahujan culture to become - more 'intellectual'.

b. His assessment that the 'Brahminical Hinduism' is the cause of holding back the progress misses the historical fact that in 1800s India was the most prosperous country in the world.

c. His knowledge of Hindu scriptures are scant to nil. For example, he interprets Bhagavat Gita's statement the one has no right to the resutls of one's action as the basis for the Brahmins and Vaishyas appropriating the production of the Dalits - because they have no right to their own production. This is a silly proposition and shows his lack of understanding of Hinduism.

d. He denigrates Hindu Gods as opposed to the Dalit Gods, without understanding that the Dalit Gods are also part of Hinduism.

e. He asserts that the Brahminical Hinduism is violent but does not explain the fact that how other religions found a foothold in India.

f. Above all, he seems to hate all the 60% plus Hindus, just because they are not Dalits (by the way, he is not a Dalit either, but an OBC)

What comes out of his book is hate towards Hinduism, based on only one aspect of Hinduism - which is casteism which is a degenerate form of the religion. He does not seem to understand that EVERY religion has this schism in one way or the other. Because his model is Communism, he proposes some crazy theories on how to get rid of the caste system.

In summary, I would say that this book is neither scholorly nor truthful. There are many more points I can cite here to illustrate all the problems with this book, but for now this would suffice.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sapr333]

I accept the fact, that this book lacks Scriptural/theolgical understanding. Its merely written in social context, with a touch of Hinduism.

But there are few thought provocking points, he shares, esp in social context...

Will join back in this thread, once the thread 'God Why ' exhausts.

 

[happyhindu]

<<d. He denigrates Hindu Gods as opposed to the Dalit Gods, without understanding that the Dalit Gods are also part of Hinduism.>>

i suppose this is coz the dalits want to be recognized as a seperate religion??

i wonder where does that idea fit into kancha's ideas of communism though :doh:

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,
He makes the age old argument of the Communists that only the people who work with their 'hands' are 'productive'. While I agree with this argument somewhat, this is the classical Marxist argument against Capitalism.

We all know what happened in China during the 'Great Leap Forwards', innitiated by Mao.

This is where his thesis falls apart - because if he follows an 'experience based' ideology, he fails to take in to account the experience that was mainly negative in China based on his theory.

Regards,
KRS

<<d. He denigrates Hindu Gods as opposed to the Dalit Gods, without understanding that the Dalit Gods are also part of Hinduism.>>

i suppose this is coz the dalits want to be recognized as a seperate religion??

i wonder where does that idea fit into kancha's ideas of communism though :doh:

 

[sapr333]

Hmm!! I was tempted to sneak in...

Certain high paid skilled jobs in the west, like Carpenter,House-Keeping, Laundry, Nurse,Black-Smithy,farm worker, Hair-Stylist are naturally 'looked down upon' in India, and, this attitude is mainly because of casteism.

TATAs had a long monopoly in Steel, because no rich Indian wanted to venture in to the Black-smithy buiness (TATA a Parsi).

We call ourselves pioneers of vedic science, but we never invented a simple machine to do scavenging job. Even now, most of the septic-tank cleaning machines are imported from abroad.. There is no big technology, when compared to Moon-mission, but we never attempted to design one,because of our mindset.

In Early Sanga times, we mastered the sea's and conquered sumatra, and even had trade relationships with Rome. But, off late, casteism painted a 'Taboo' on this,lost the skill... end results, Portugues/Dutch/Brits conquered us by the same sea.

We never believed in diversity-in-job-participation, and exclusively assigned the job of protecting the country to Kshatriyas based upon varna. End resuts??. One by one we surrendered to the invading armies for last 2000 years.

80% of Indian economy is based on agriculture, unfortunately, the paddy-field-worker is called Paryah (untouchable)!!

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

You have pointed out some really good stuff here.

Hmm!! I was tempted to sneak in...

Certain high paid skilled jobs in the west, like Carpenter,House-Keeping, Laundry, Nurse,Black-Smithy,farm worker, Hair-Stylist are naturally 'looked down upon' in India, and, this attitude is mainly because of casteism.

Is it because of casteism or is it because the jobs are not well paid. If a man gets good wages for his work, surely there is no way ppl will 'look down' upon something. I think currently its bcoz of an over sized population, all battling to cut labour costs and offer cheapest services, whether it is masonary and construction labour or hair dressing or IT services...

TATAs had a long monopoly in Steel, because no rich Indian wanted to venture in to the Black-smithy buiness (TATA a Parsi).

Ukku steel used to be made in the south. Sword making involved blacksmithry. The south used be rather big on it, also exported it. But in later years no one had the vision for a big business. If anyone had any such vision, there used to be something called bureaucracy to make sure only certain sections got favoured (saw guru? the movie on dirubhai ambani's case...why have those kinda stupid laws at all)..

We call ourselves pioneers of vedic science, but we never invented a simple machine to do scavenging job. Even now, most of the septic-tank cleaning machines are imported from abroad.. There is no big technology, when compared to Moon-mission, but we never attempted to design one,because of our mindset.

am 100% in agreement with you. We really are slow on technology innovation...the general tendency is to be 'followers' not innovators...

In Early Sanga times, we mastered the sea's and conquered sumatra, and even had trade relationships with Rome. But, off late, casteism painted a 'Taboo' on this,lost the skill... end results, Portugues/Dutch/Brits conquered us by the same sea.

I do not think casteism had anything to do with it. India lost on sea trade with SE Asia certainly not because of casteism. Was told that so many people were on the shipping scene even during the British times. It seems there used to be crazy laws and bureaucracy made by the indian government in the immediate years after independence; and those years really played the spoilsport. And now after the economy has opened up, we are not really lost on it are we..there are so may big and capable players now..

We never believed in diversity-in-job-participation, and exclusively assigned the job of protecting the country to Kshatriyas based upon varna. End resuts??. One by one we surrendered to the invading armies for last 2000 years.

i agree with you that those so-called kshtraiya ppl with all their greed and power hungry ways cud not even reconcile with one another and rather very well allowed all the invaders to come in....

There have been many things lost to the world just because we have assigned it to specific individuals. One wud be the loss of soma making, because it got restricted to dravida priests. God knows where those dravida priests disapperead taking their knowledge with them away forever...lets thank the current age of digitization and preservation.

At the same time let us not forget that a lot of propaganda wrt to casteism was created during the colonial times...in the past it might have not been really as rigid as it was made out to be..

80% of Indian economy is based on agriculture, unfortunately, the paddy-field-worker is called Paryah (untouchable)!!

Oh well, give him better wages, an education or some social awareness on hygiene, and see if anyone wants to tag him as pariah...again, if the country had money they cud bring in ways and farming methods with all that machinery of those developed countries...anyways i am a future pariah since i will be shifting to farming a few years down the lane

 

[sapr333]

KRS >>>He asserts that the Brahminical Hinduism is violent but does not explain the fact that how other religions found a foothold in India.>>

I think, Kancha is not saying 'Hindus as Violent'.. I remember a paragraph, where in he cites about the 'Arms flaunting Gods killing black men(he persumed black demon to be dalits)". But he fails to pay any attention to the theological/Theosophical front.

Can someone attempt to answer him?

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

This is a toilet designed in India.

http://www.sulabhinternational.org/st/advantages_sulabh_toilets.php

I remember that the government was promoting even a cheaper alternative for villages.

We are not talking about the Urban squalor here.

This is a story of how an individual can change a village.

http://akash-ganga-rwh.com/village/TripReportKuthambakkam.html

It does remind of the days 30 years back when I was a member of a team who wanted to improve the living conditions of a Scavenger's (Thotti) colony. We learnt a lot during our struggle against overwhelming odds.

 

[sapr333]

It does remind of the days 30 years back when I was a member of a team who wanted to improve the living conditions of a Scavenger's (Thotti) colony. We learnt a lot during our struggle against overwhelming odds.

I can sense what kind of odds would have been been faced,there...

I can share a different persepective to it... My Dad used to tell me an interesting event..During early days of Cholera vaccination campaign by municipality, upon hearing the drum-beat, the entire villagers would run for hide-outs,to avoid vaccination (prick pain). There are instances, the villagers took community resolution to ban the entry of Municipal health dept van.Even cops used to search every rooms of a house and get them vaccinated by force. However, we shouldnt blame the villagers for their ignorance/opposition.

Rather, its our social-onus to bring awarness in them, even by force, if needed.For this,we need a greater level of personal 'CONVICTION' . With that kind of conviction (deep within us), we may not even tempt to express it as 'Stuggle against overwhelming odds".

 

[happyhindu]

This is a toilet designed in India.

http://www.sulabhinternational.org/st/advantages_sulabh_toilets.php

I remember that the government was promoting even a cheaper alternative for villages.

We are not talking about the Urban squalor here.

This is a story of how an individual can change a village.

http://akash-ganga-rwh.com/village/TripReportKuthambakkam.html

It does remind of the days 30 years back when I was a member of a team who wanted to improve the living conditions of a Scavenger's (Thotti) colony. We learnt a lot during our struggle against overwhelming odds.

If anyone can be given Padma Bhushan twice Shri Bindeshwar Pathak is certainly deserving of it....amazing is his innovation and more amazing is his staunch commitment to better the lives of ppl around him.

Kuthambakkam is a real beacon of light...God bless Elango.

Thankyou for sharing these links Sri N-ji.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There is a mistaken notion that the so called lower castes were also very poor. It is not always so. Take for example the Ezhavas of Kerala. They are more prosperous than most of the so called forward castes. They had a monopoly in producing and dealing in liquor. They continue to dominate the liquor trade.

The first person to buy a car in Kerala was an Ezhava. You can read about the strange incident of the Ezhava owner and his forward caste driver regarding caste rules in K.P.S. Menon's book.

Processing and production of leather was again their forte. Now it is dominated by Muslims. Of course some Brahmins have entered the business in the last two decades.

Some of the Brahmins of old wanted to bring a rule prohibiting the lower castes from accumulating wealth. They did put a restriction in some of the Dharma Sasthras. But simple economics took over.

The legendary Dhoms of Varanasi who ruled over the burning ghats of Varanasi (and who still rule) had more income than the King of Varanasi. They may not have become rich because they squandered the money away. They had/have a monopoly.

I remember meeting the boss of the sweeper women of Madras. She had more jewellery on her than any Amman in a temple. Way back in the sixties the dock labour in Bombay was one of the highest paid in India. They earned about Rs. 30000 per month. But then they did not become rich because they never saved any money and never thought about the future.

That is one of the major problems faced in the upliftment of the downtrodden.

 

[Sankara]

Observations of a (non-IT) Indian American:

Brahmins (keepers of the traditions of the most disgusting religion ever devised, Hinduism, that counts in its canon, the laws of Manu, that equate caste-perpetuation with spirituality) are 4% of India and 40% of its civil service (any wonder India is so ********?) and 80% of its IT diaspora. The vast majority of these IT imports are doing nothing irreplaceable and in point of fact are depressing wages. Confronted by the reality of the underdog status in a foreign land, you'd think they'd develop an empathy for the people down the pecking order back home they actively or passively oppressed. But that is not the case, instead these morons fund regressive casteist organizations in India. And have no respect for the history of African Americans and their struggle for civil rights derisively referring to them as "kallus". Absolutely nothing would be lost by sending these retrograde specimens back where they came from.
Dear Sankara Ji,
Welcome to the Forum. While you are welcome to post your views here, please observe the decorum we practice here. We do not wish to call any group of people names, based on some generalized notions. Obviously you seem to have some issues pertaining to the interests of our members here. Please put forth those views in a discussion format, not in a declarative and borderline abusive manner. Thank you.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

... 40% of its civil service (any wonder India is so ***?) and 80% of its IT diaspora.

Not sure any Indian wud say the last sentence you said. Its the words of either a) a missionary b) a so-called dalit c) a frustrated westerner; or d) a muslim trying to create the indian-westerner divide.

But, may i know the source from which you have you mentioned that 40% (civil service) and 80% (IT services) statistics?

Please have a look at the IAS er sheet - i think the 40% is grossly exagerated. And the 80% seems oversized as well..

 

[sapr333]

There is a mistaken notion that the so called lower castes were also very poor

.

[I]I fully agree with you.. Some one told me, 50% of the prime real estate (costlier than N.Y) in Bangalore is owned by Reddys,unfortunately, they continue to enjoy the reservation. Our political system needs to have a relook on fine tuning their data base. Having said that, over all social status of lower castes in India (weighted average) still seems to be so so low interms of Per Capita/Literacy/Social Index/Health Index/Job participation etc...We need to look in to this too[/I]

>>Take for example the Ezhavas of Kerala. They are more prosperous than most of the so called forward castes. They had a monopoly in producing and dealing in liquor. They continue to dominate the liquor trade.>>>

I can cite Kancha here, subsequently quoted by KRS in terms of discrimination of skill set. Distillary/toddy tapping business of Ezhavas or even nadars of TN were looked down upon by the casteists. This community is the one who first revolted and sought temple entry in EVR's Vaikom revolution, and brought out social reformers like Narayana Guru...

Skill of distilling liquor or toddy tapping was thought to be a low job, inspite of we having a vedic sedative Somabana drink.Talking in line with Kancha Ilaiah, had we respected their 2000Yr old distillary skills, we would have been Numero Uno in the world overtaking Jack Daniels,Johnnie walker and Champagne'.. Kancha was driving this point, that, skills were not respected in casteism

Some of the Brahmins of old wanted to bring a rule prohibiting the lower castes from accumulating wealth. They did put a restriction in some of the Dharma Sasthras. But simple economics took over.

[I]True, but there was a Cause for that economics to work... British educational system helped them a lot. And for want of English education, they even exited their millenia old religion. The same Kannyakumari dt, where Swami Vivekananda meditated, is now a hindu minority dt!! Pls ponder[/I]

>>>>The legendary Dhoms of Varanasi who ruled over the burning ghats of Varanasi (and who still rule) had more income than the King of Varanasi. They may not have become rich because they squandered the money away. They had/have a monopoly.

Being rich is no way related to the social status one gets, in a casteist society.. This is what kancha says.. Just because they have become rich, will they be given entry in to the sactorum.. Can they also lead the rituals!! I know, there will be 100 judicial responses to prove why he cant become one!! Even a rich man, or even an IAS officer cant enter Puri Jegganath Temple. Even Prime Minister Late Indira Gandhi was shown the doors there.. fact remains.. Its up to us to realise the facts of life, with deep convictions.

They earned about Rs. 30000 per month. But then they did not become rich because they never saved any money and never thought about the future.

Exemptions cannot be rules!! Havent we worked towards the devdasi community and brought them awareness..In this modern day of globalization,arent we working amonst the AIDS victims, instead of just blaming them for their loose morality. If we know a particular community, is wasting all money, inspite of high earning, lets educate them, than attributing them to an in-born trait..


.

sap

 

[sapr333]

Observations of a (non-IT) Indian American:

Brahmins (keepers of the traditions of the most disgusting religion ever devised, Hinduism, that counts in its canon, the laws of Manu, that equate caste-perpetuation with spirituality) are 4% of India and 40% of its civil service (any wonder India is so ***?) and 80% of its IT diaspora. The vast majority of these IT imports are doing nothing irreplaceable and in point of fact are depressing wages. Confronted by the reality of the underdog status in a foreign land, you'd think they'd develop an empathy for the people down the pecking order back home they actively or passively oppressed. But that is not the case, instead these morons fund regressive casteist organizations in India. And have no respect for the history of African Americans and their struggle for civil rights derisively referring to them as "kallus". Absolutely nothing would be lost by sending these retrograde specimens back where they came from.

H.H Reponds>>Not sure any Indian wud say the last sentence you said. Its the words of either a) a missionary b) a so-called dalit c) a frustrated westerner; or d) a muslim trying to create the indian-westerner divide.>>>


H.H, this is the problem with most of Indians. Elusive for debate.Im ok your ok. Live let live (at one's mercy though)..

This handle Sankara seems to be a new entry.His profile statistics says so.. But then, instead of responding back, one should not tend to resort to emotional , apprhensive responses..Dont forget, you even doubted me as a 'Spanish Missionary' or for sometime as an 'EVR fan"....

Lets all welcome this new handle, and see what he has on the offering!!!

 

[happyhindu]

H.H Reponds>>Not sure any Indian wud say the last sentence you said. Its the words of either a) a missionary b) a so-called dalit c) a frustrated westerner; or d) a muslim trying to create the indian-westerner divide.>>>


H.H, this is the problem with most of Indians. Elusive for debate.Im ok your ok. Live let live (at one's mercy though)..

This handle Sankara seems to be a new entry.His profile statistics says so.. But then, instead of responding back, one should not tend to resort to emotional , apprhensive responses..Dont forget, you even doubted me as a 'Spanish Missionary' or for sometime as an 'EVR fan"....

Lets all welcome this new handle, and see what he has on the offering!!!

Sapr,

I was responding to sankara's last sentence that "Absolutely nothing would be...back where they came from."

This in no way means that i am elusive for debate or discussion.

Neither was i responding with emotional, apprehensive responses.

I was responding with my opinion that Indians do not talk like that; since the words sound like one of those 4 categories. Its just an opinion, not an allegation or a doubt.