Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[sapr333]

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Bala,

If one has to attribute every thing in life to 'MAYA', the philosphers say, we human race would foget the 'Purpose In Life'.. Would you accept the imprisonment of Kanchi seer as Maya,and according to the fact beyond maya, he spend time being "oneness with God'?

A terrorist could go for a shooting spree and claim, listen man, this is MAYA, probably you are seeing 'Death of innocents' and crying, but its only MAYA, fact is something different... even that statment is ok, but do we have answers beyond "MAYA... Philosphers are pondering whats there beyond MAYA...Please ponder this!!

 

[s007bala]

re

sapr333

Dear Bala, please dont get in to emotions, and start using slang's like Porikkeys... This is debate forum..

if you are attacked by goondas,i dont know what you will write,though god forbid such a thing should ever happen even to my worst enemy.all i am doing is debating .

Havent you heard of Adi Sankara's greatest debate!! Which is indeed a history's turning points!!! Pls dont stoop that low, while claiming you to be Sai Babha's Asharmite..

ellam neenga edutthukkira widathhil irukku.what stooping to low level are you commenting about?i did not say that you are a porrikkey,did i?Sai Baba does not need me,but i need him for my bhakthi.Even here i am seperating him from myself ,on the contrary he is in front of me, behind me besides me ,above me,below me,sarvam sai mayam!

But then I have good question for you from your earlier post.. You calimed, you are wondered and thrilled by Sai Babha brining Holy Ash(Viboodhi) from empty hand... Dont you know, that MIRACLES are not a part of Hinduism,Islam,Buddhism.. Its the Christians only doctrinally claim the existence of Miracles.. Why are you contradicting yourself here!!

miracles are called as siddhis and they are called siddhars.our own mahaswamigal has performed siddhams for our family.by writing all these things,you are only exposing your lack of practical knowledge about sanathana dharma.

I think you guys need to learn hinduism first..

its like an aray koray nundu shindu who do not know about krishna leelas,and comparing him to kallans & kullans,have a vichaaram?but kaarradhu kai mann alavau so said lord siva to sage bharadwaja munivar,so what do i know?

sb:flame:

 

[sapr333]

palindrome!

you miss the point, sapr333 's choice of words about GOD is enough to provoke any devout follower - .

Listen!! I had a clarification... And I asked with a polished language, and mentioned it as 'Un-Holy Acts of Gods'.. Someone thought it as an ACT/Law and responded thinking it as gods law..Then I went little bit explaining what its all about, and still used a polished language and called it as 'Krishan LEELA, and cited Rahul Mahajan...

I think, I have not hurt anyones sentiments here!! Take it easy.. We are on a debate..Thats all.

 

[sapr333]

islam calls god=allah=nirguna brahman.prophet mohammad's revealtion thru angel gabriel as the popular version of islam,whereas the original 'as it is' from bharathams sanathana dharmas.they are our brothers and sisters,who unfortunately looted,plundered our lands & occupied it as rulers and forcibly converted a minority of population of bharatham.so,we think them as un-holy.the truth is,bharathians preached or exported religious philosophies during ancient times =sanathana dharma is the grand-parents or great great....to the power of infinity religion of the bhu-loka.
sb

Bala,

Once again you are making a great blunder and making a suicidal statement. God cannot be confined to Bharath-India-Indians. God is universal and for the Universe too.... (Andamum Adangum)... If you wish to identify Hinduism with India, then you are one amongst the RSS/BJP/Sang Parivar, who wish to hijack hinduism for their political/nationalistic games..

I think, its terribly wrong to identify hinduism in terms of Hindustan..Then ISKON must be contradicting you.

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala,

If one has to attribute every thing in life to 'MAYA', the philosphers say, we human race would foget the 'Purpose In Life'.. Would you accept the imprisonment of Kanchi seer as Maya,and according to the fact beyond maya, he spend time being "oneness with God'?

A terrorist could go for a shooting spree and claim, listen man, this is MAYA, probably you are seeing 'Death of innocents' and crying, but its only MAYA, fact is something different... even that statment is ok, but do we have answers beyond "MAYA... Philosphers are pondering whats there beyond MAYA...Please ponder this!!

first try to understand maya itself with what context its applied.our philosophers were not fools to say everything is mayam and all are mayavadis.

cause and effect is what our karma is all about.what we experiance in life today is becoz of past karma during a previous incarnation in whichever life form we were born.the present life determines our future state of welfare.this way we are our own destiny shapers and we are divine beings.

you are quoting terrorist in this thread has no relevance to me,so i will not comment on this now.But again its Karma.

kanchi seers imprisonment is nothing but the jagathgurus leela only in which a state CM is a pawn.I only wish well for her and people of TN,becoz if you see the sagunam,a Tsunami followed and hit so many countries of far east & India,which has imprints of sanathana dharma of all religions.but thankfully very less damage was done to TN but still people suffered.bhu-devi will not tolerate 'attuzhiam' believe me,the shakthi will take the form of 'bhadra kali' and wipe out evil.

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala,

Once again you are making a great blunder and making a suicidal statement. God cannot be confined to Bharath-India-Indians. God is universal and for the Universe too.... (Andamum Adangum)... If you wish to identify Hinduism with India, then you are one amongst the RSS/BJP/Sang Parivar, who wish to hijack hinduism for their political/nationalistic games..

I think, its terribly wrong to identify hinduism in terms of Hindustan..Then ISKON must be contradicting you.

i dunno what you are understanding..here we go again.sanathana dharma is the root which originates from bharatham whose map was different during ancient worlds time.i am talking about about our vedic yugams,not what we learnt in schools,colleges,researchers....pure and simple our puranas,ithihasams,......thankfully some were kept hidden from 1000 years of mlechas rules (800 years islam + 200 years british east india co christians+ other christians like dutch,portugese,french...luckily deutchlanders were more concerned elsewhere ).

Hinduism itself is a wrong representation of our religion's name which is Sanathana Dharma,but moronic baboons arabs could not pronounce just like their twins british christians who could not pronounce,went about changing the names of the land marks in bharatham.our kshatriyas backside got tanned and we lost,and the victoriuos ruled our forefathers/mothers.

1000 years is a pretty long time for any populace to have lost their moorings,especially from barbarians from arab lands and english speaking christians.pee kaatu dorais = lol .

whats RSS or BJP or Hindutva got to do here in the thread.Next i should say you are dalitnation,shudranadu...etc or....what non-sense?... why ISKCON is being dragged...if at all anything HDG srila prabhupada spearheaded a revoolutionary spiritual dharma sect,that american younsters changed their behaviour to spiritual activities,a miraculous transformation for the betterment of american society and other such countries where he opened mandirs glorifying his guru paramparam and sampradayam of shri vaishnava gaudiya sect!!!

sb:thumb:

 

[sapr333]

first try to understand maya itself with what context its applied.our philosophers were not fools to say everything is mayam and all are mayavadis.

cause and effect is what our karma is all about.what we experiance in life today is becoz of past karma during a previous incarnation in whichever life form we were born.the present life determines our future state of welfare.this way we are our own destiny shapers and we are divine beings.

you are quoting terrorist in this thread has no relevance to me,so i will not comment on this now.But again its Karma.

kanchi seers imprisonment is nothing but the jagathgurus leela only in which a state CM is a pawn.I only wish well for her and people of TN,becoz if you see the sagunam,a Tsunami followed and hit so many countries of far east & India,which has imprints of sanathana dharma of all religions.but thankfully very less damage was done to TN but still people suffered.bhu-devi will not tolerate 'attuzhiam' believe me,the shakthi will take the form of 'bhadra kali' and wipe out evil.

sb

Bala,

First of all you never bothered to explain me the karmic effect of a terrorist in pervious birth. This only infers,that, you are conveniently taking this debate on emotional terms,than on logical thinking... Im quite embarassed to see this kind of response from a TAMBRAM scholar, who is supposed to the 'Owner of Vedas' and philosophies'.. I can only pity..

Now coming back to your eg of Tsunami Vs Karmic effect of Kanchi seers arrest, If I may ask you..... Do you believe that the reservations/Anti-Brahminism of modern era, is just the karmic cause of the attrocities done by ancestors? You believe in Karma right!!

 

[sapr333]

Bala, I give up.. You made no sense here..

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

the logic of karma, to be understood in its complete sense, would be next to impossible, as we are all looking at situations from a particular perception... to look at it from the macro level would be equating it as some sort of chaos theory or butterfly effect (as a similarity)

stored, present and future are the simple classification - this is just for our understanding... by stored, it means the past un-mitigated effects of karmas that would have to be experienced by a soul, the manifestations may or may not be within its control... or perhaps a random combination works here...

not all actions need be based on karmic... every action has an equal and opposite reaction... but not everything is a reaction... the impetus is the thought, which arises through perception and experience... the rich longs for more... the poor longs for richness, the distressed long for peace... these are karmic - strong thoughts which have a lasting impression and which are left unfulfilled...

my point here is to distinguish between original thoughts which lead to original actions and derived results of actions...

of couse, this has certain premises - just as the erp sap has event driven methodologies - there is this fundamental assumption that there are souls and that they are bound to fulfil manifestations arising out of gunas (which explains birth and related experiences)...

the controller of karma is understood differently in different philosophies...

why manifestations? that is the central query, which would then solve the riddle of creation or life itself... maya, some say... others would say that everything existed as it was from time immemorial; only beings differed... causaulity perhaps... these remain just hypothesis from the viewpoint of the one who detaches from all these and looks on, merely as an observer...

what is hinduism? perhaps we should not use the term 'hinduism' here as it is a coinage of circumstances... by accepting the label, we are confining ourselves... ours is a religion with no name... maybe sanathana dharma, but that explains only its nature... but let us not be bothered by names... the main emphasis of the vedic religion is the vedas and upanishads...

even the vedas and upanishads are not without assumptions - but they seem to have withstood the test of time... approaches differ, but the ultimate goal remains the same... if one wishes to question the basic assumption itself, he is free to do so, but it is a journey of his own... as simple as that...

every soul is different and does not always understand a situation or an event in the same manner... (as can be seen often in this forum itself...) so, different practices might have evolved... that does not destabilize the core proposition itself...

Aside: all religious texts have an underlying assumption...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

to understand how animals can attain moksha, it is necessary to go beyond the normal level of reasoning.... we can only explore, but not conclude...

--> were animals born to subsist on one another from time immemorial? just because it is so now may not mean that it was meant to be so...

--> plants though alive are different from animals... the experiences are totally different... rocks and mountains are also present, how would they attain moksha? so there are sentient and insentient beings which have always been so... but again, there may be exceptions...

--> our thought process is limited because we are unable to fathom the minds of animals (or even plants)... so the mechanics of karma as regards animals can be complex to be understood at the first step... it could be like introducing binomial theories to a kid who has just started learning to count...

let us not arrive at a conclusion and then debate - it can never satisfy either of the parties... this thread seems to be so...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sapr333, the term "god" is a derived word...

the vedas and upanishads, for the sake of understanding, attribute a name as "brahman" which is defined as that from which everything came from...

there is a difference between the abrahamic definitions of god and our concept of brahman...

as sb points out, the concept of god could be saguna... which can be also inferred from "dheivam manushya roopena" - i interpret this to mean that "god is given a definition (or body - which is roopam) as a result of his perceptions..."

brahman is beyond that - that is what the vedas/upanishads declare...

before you should proceed on with this thread, pls have a structured approach as it helps understanding... debates here are not gonna prove anything... they only help affirm or negate our perceptions... which need not necessarily be true...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

request all to pls see this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsYPZO2ZP6A&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66OVr2RN_xM

thanks,

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala,

First of all you never bothered to explain me the karmic effect of a terrorist in pervious birth. This only infers,that, you are conveniently taking this debate on emotional terms,than on logical thinking... Im quite embarassed to see this kind of response from a TAMBRAM scholar, who is supposed to the 'Owner of Vedas' and philosophies'.. I can only pity..

plz understand,its a herculean task to explain karma in this forum for you.you must have a guru is my humble request.these are fundamental precepts of our sanathna dharma.re-incarnation is such huge voluminous subject.my best shot,at least read bhagavath gita,as its essence of truth is just simply priceless.

Now coming back to your eg of Tsunami Vs Karmic effect of Kanchi seers arrest, If I may ask you..... Do you believe that the reservations/Anti-Brahminism of modern era, is just the karmic cause of the attrocities done by ancestors? You believe in Karma right!!

there is no anti-brahmanism.this is ignorance.reservation is upliftment of people,but not using merit in academic scores,will ruin the nation for future generations to come.A jathi brahmin will survive as its embedded in vasanas of consciousness given by the seers of the various forefathers.its faith,other than that,you are on your own to understand sanathana dharmas exponents,methodologies,...etc.becoz its frustrating for me to explain,when i dwell in ecstacy of our gurus,avatars purushas/purushis...

personally i owe to mathru pithru athithi guru deivam for my well being.but i like to include my satsangam,bandhus,pangalikkal...etc sarva lokas samasthas sukhino bhavanthu.


sb

 

[malgova.mango]

I thought I had answered you before.. People en-mass cried during the death of Saddam Hussein,Hitler, Mussoulini, Naturam Godse, Bandit Veerappan.. Even Verrapan was once adorned like a god in the jungles. Imagine if LTTE Prabakaran were to be shot, im sure, a few millions would shed tears..

My point is, this is irrelevant logic..

All you got to convince me, in terms of Universal Moral Standards, that, whether the unholy acts of Krishna-Leela is right or wrong? Will God of Absolute holiness would do that.. if so, what the purpose of God and why we need such God?

sapr33!

please stop to think for a while.

if LTTE leader is departed - sinhalese won't cry for that, may be some tamils.

please use some sense b4 u write .

those who would have cried belongs to the interest group of their leader.
here you charge Lord - as the one who harms the group in an evil way. so i asked you a relevant question of why the group which is harmed by HIM should cry for his departure

if you can't comprehend this ....... what to say?

 

[sapr333]

Seshadri,

I have gone through the video link as well as all your posts.So in the detailed discussion about KARMA (esp Animal Karma), you wish to conclude that, Animals Karma is beyond our comprehension',..It seems to be a convincing answer, though not a logical response / reasoning.

And the two video presentation by Velgudi swamy is impressive, but its not relevant to our discussion.. Yes his idea of Good/evil is all with the motive of the Action/Duty seems to be ok,in a small context.

But the basic question arises here is, Good/Evil, is it subjective or objective or relative?
To drag this discussion little futher, I'm presenting you with a contrary view...ie, Plato's Euthyphro Dilemma..Please read this, so that, our discussion will come to a refined/focussed way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5236

 

[sapr333]

sapr33!

please stop to think for a while.

if LTTE leader is departed - sinhalese won't cry for that, may be some tamils.
. so i asked you a relevant question of why the group which is harmed by HIM should cry for his departure

Points taken.. Lets analyse thsi instance.
Imagine a ancient village Zamindar,who enjoys sex with all the unmarried girl of the village, which is enjoyed by the girls family also,cos he is a big man, and they consider it as pride. Matter of fact, he has fathered 1000 Children. And sure, they all will cry out of affection, when he dies... So do you agree,what the zamindar did is right!!.

Imagine an incest father. And they all still live a happy life and the family gonna mourn his death,weep and cry..Still can that father be right,according to you.

Now you may even say, Good or Bad is what we decide based upon the society...Points taken..If thats the case, we may not need God! We can decide every thing by ourselves and judge ourselves.. Then again, there will be a dilemma... What Hitler did is right according to him as well as Majority of Germans, in the nationalistic/german economic view... On what basis you are going to condemn him?

I would also request, Seshardi to share his outlook on this. Thanks

 

[malgova.mango]

what point you took?

Lord was 8 years old , when he departs ......

I asked you a simple question and i didn't get a simple, direct and honest reply .....


your enjoy your freedom of imagination.. don't drag me into that...

 

[sapr333]

sapr333, the term "god" is a derived word...

the vedas and upanishads, for the sake of understanding, attribute a name as "brahman" which is defined as that from which everything came from...

there is a difference between the abrahamic definitions of god and our concept of brahman..

Except for Buddhism, all major religions (Hinduism,Christianity,Islam) fairly well agree to this point, ie

God is the creator of all, with the trait of Absolute Holiness, Absolute Righterousness, Absolute Justice and All loving.


If you agree with this broad definition, then there is no difference between the concept of God in western & eastern religions.. First lets clarify this too.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Except for Buddhism, all major religions (Hinduism,Christianity,Islam) fairly well agree to this point, ie

God is the creator of all, with the trait of Absolute Holiness, Absolute Righterousness, Absolute Justice and All loving.


If you agree with this broad definition, then there is no difference between the concept of God in western & eastern religions.. First lets clarify this too.

Brahman, in our scriptures is that which cannot be defined... as simple as that --> it is something within our comprehension and also beyond...

also, the concept of creator in christianity and islam, though monoistic, differentiate the creator from the created... they do not say that the creator is manifest in every being of the created... and hence there is a distinct difference...

our texts, on the other hand, show that there is an element of the brahman in all beings --> some schools of thought..

dvaitham differs in this... but then it also differs from the abrahamic school of thought in its other aspects...

saguna, means somthing that has been coated with gunas, perceptions... whose gunas? of those who perceive the being...

aside: durga was created by the yogic power of the gods; so is it possible that our mental powers, if harmonised in a single train of thought could actually manifest it?

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

sapr333,

logic is but a state of perception - a certain way of comprehending things... that is why we see differences between purportedly logical people themselves...

our scriptures say, "that state which is not distorted by the senses, but with the mind fully aware" is the truth... would seem contradictory, how can anyone be aware without the senses??? ahh yes, but that is something which has to be experienced, not debated...

good/bad, moral/immoral ---> are social terms and that is why they differ from society to society... if society had accepted a current evil act as good, then the feeling on performing the act would have been different... so these are relative terms which seek to further co-existence as the main thrust...

and yes, we can decide what is good or bad etc... but they leave certain impressions on our perception; then the argument would be that over years of conditioning, perception too, could be altered... true, but there would be differing views even in that state... there would always be an anti... for that is how creation itself is balanced...!

but the question now is "if we were to decide on good or bad, and if each of us have myriad of opinions, how would we arrive at a conclusion"... voting? that could be an option, but it is not all encompassing... perhaps, we can say that whatever one feels, can be acted upon... and promptly, we would see thefts, rapes and murders...

so, it is for social order that morals have been invented...

and whilst following this order, the mind gains confidence and determination... which are essentials for following, even a simple branch of study... which then could help the soul to understand spirituality...

another alternative ---> can we say that whatever inflicts pain is evil and the converse is good... yes, this would be relative.. very much...

beings tend to avoid pain and move towards experiences or actions that bring them more pleasure...

a question:

consdider a person who consumes alcohol and experiences immense pleasure from that... it is good according to him... and hence he always wants to be in a state of intoxication.... are we right in saying that he is wrong?

aside: there is a science called dianetics... the logic is interesting...

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

to realize god or brahman or divine consciousness, we have to be devoid of all gunas, and hence we have to rise above morals ---> is the implicit call... and hence detachment is advised, not indulgence...

 

[sapr333]

sapr333,

good/bad, moral/immoral ---> are social terms and that is why they differ from society to society... ...

I'm not sure if you had read the two links about Plato!! If morals/good/evil is subjective, then you are presenting a suicidal view and falling in line with most of the aetheist philosophers say.

Take for Karma..If Good and Bad is determined by society, then Karma has no role, and god who decides the karma has no function here. Rather one dont need God, and we have no accountablity to God. Im sure, God should have a central definition for universal good/bad in line with conscience.

Lets say,an alien from different planet comes here, and rape all the women, and claims, hey good/bad is subjective, keep cool, in our planet, its all acceptable norm..Its jsut chaos.. Or a cannibal tribal enters N.Y and bites the throat of all, and says its an acceptable norm in his tribal culture, then its a mess. And according to Karma, both didnt do any harm, including Hitler or Stalin.

So the philosophers say, Evil and Good is universal, and they are rooted in God..Cos god is the universal controller for Karmic effects.

PS:- And we cannt blame every thing on Maya/Illusion/beyond logic & Comprehension. If God is there, then he should be atleast fairly well able to comprehend him. And if God is there, he should atleast show him to us..We cant sit with thinking God is all full of mysteries.

 

[sapr333]

Seshadri, here is clip of Philosopher Mr.Lane's response to aetheists on Good/Evil


if atheism is true, objective moral values do not exist. If God does not exist, then what is the foundation for moral values? More particularly, what is the basis for the value of human beings? If God does not exist, then it is difficult to see any reason to think that human beings are special or that their morality is objectively true. Moreover, why think that we have any moral obligations to do anything? Who or what imposes any moral duties upon us?


Michael Ruse, a philosopher of science from the University of Guelph, writes,
The position of the modern evolutionist . . . is that humans have an awareness of morality . . . because such an awareness is of biological worth. Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth . . . . Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says 'Love they neighbor as thyself,' they think they are referring above and beyond themselves . . . . Nevertheless, . . . such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, . . . and any deeper meaning is illusory .

As a result of socio-biological pressures, there has evolved among homo sapiens a sort of "herd morality" which functions well in the perpetuation of our species in the struggle for survival. But there does not seem to be anything about homo sapiens that makes this morality objectively true.

Moreover, on the atheistic view there is no divine lawgiver. But then what source is there for moral obligation? Richard Taylor, an eminent ethicist, writes,
The modern age, more or less repudiating the idea of a divine lawgiver, has nevertheless tried to retain the ideas of moral right and wrong, not noticing that, in casting God aside, they have also abolished the conditions of meaningfulness for moral right and wrong as well.

Thus, even educated persons sometimes declare that such things are war, or abortion, or the violation of certain human rights, are 'morally wrong,' and they imagine that they have said something true and significant.

Educated people do not need to be told, however, that questions such as these have never been answered outside of religion

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

the reason that we are unable to digest it is not good enough proof to show that morals are not subjective...

i give an example --> in south india, in some cases, a brother can marry his sister's girl... this is against rules in north india... so where is the applicability of morals here??

we agree to set common standards only to the extent they safeguard us --> this is the key element...

if plato is your obsession, they you cannot come out of it... and neither can you accept any reason given...

karma is totally different from good/evil... it does not differentiate, but just says that all attached actions arising out of sensory perceptions have reactions that have to be met out with the same sensory perceptions... (i have tried to put it differently here)... do you get that?

let us take one thing at a time... first let us arrive at the nature of good/evil and why they are defined so... then karma, then spirituality and godhood...

one cannot simply interrelate and confuse between these terms...

thanks,

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

to you post on lane:

i have said this before --> if you tend to conclude, you cannot explore... i have not said whether there is a god or not!!

btw, i think you have mistook my views as being that of an atheist...