Women no more unsafe in India than elsewhere: French minister

[Nara]

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Dear sangom, I give you a link to last week's episode of Bill Moyers' hour long weekly program.

Full Show: Saving Democracy is Up to Citizen Activists | Moyers & Company | BillMoyers.com

Moyer's interview of Historian Peter Dreier will give you a feel for the grassroot movements that are using democratic methods to reign in the avarice of MNCs, Wall Street and other big corporations.

 

[prasad1]

Blaming western culture, or movies is a cop out. We need to device methods of deterring crimes against other human beings. Not accepting the ills of the society is a sure sign of denial. Denial is a sure sign that we do not have a solution and are powerless against the evil forces.
Let us become strong by accepting our responsibilities and fight against the evil in all its forms.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Blaming western culture, or movies is a cop out. We need to device methods of deterring crimes against other human beings. Not accepting the ills of the society is a sure sign of denial. Denial is a sure sign that we do not have a solution and are powerless against the evil forces.

Let us become strong by accepting our responsibilities and fight against the evil in all its forms.

I agree. But it is not going to happen. I do not believe that our society would change. For a society to change, the first thing is to accept that Rape is a Crime. It is a Crime irrespective of the status, behaviour etc. of the victim. It is crime even if the victim is a sex worker.

Unfrtunately most people in India would not agree. The police does not recognize the crime. Very few if any of the culprits are punished. Even then the punishment was only token.

The enacting of new laws does not change things. I will not change the mentality of the people, the society. These are like applying salve over the wound. It cures the symptom. It does not cure the disease.

I do not think the tendency to blame the victim would go away.

The best Gift for any woman in India today is the Pepper Spray. Protect your Women.

 

[sangom]

Well, are you aware that the international labor day aka May Day started as a remembrance of police brutality against striking workers fighting for an eight hour work day.

The Green movement, Occupy Movement, sustained opposition to WTO and other pro-business trade deals, global warming fight, all these are very strong in the West and the U.S. Without the efforts of some of these groups Obama would have long approved the Keystone XL Pipeline, which, if approved, is supposed to be game over.

There is no denying, the oligarchs who run the country, both inside and outside the government, are a formidable force. They have their counterparts all over the world, including, and especially, in India. There is no aping the West or aping the East among them, they are united among themselves to make sure exploitation of both human and natural resources continues unabated. The only way these forces can be slowed down, let alone stopped, is for the common peoples from all countries unite.

I find that enlightened groups of people can be there in any country and not only in the US or the Americas. Hence the credit sought for Mayday etc., is rather undue and a bloated claim. May be it is true that the Chicago Haymarket shooting was the cause of Mayday being declared in Paris (and not the US). Again the workers' day in US is not May1, I think; it is in September! Clearly, therefore, the US is fighting shy.

As regards the Keystone XL pipeline, my view is that its 4th. phase is getting delayed not because of opposition from private groups but because of certain political issues within US and also US-Canada friction on some aspects of phase 4. It is well to remember that three phases of the project are in operation and what has been delayed is just the 4th phase; will this matter so much in the US' avarice for energy security?

I therefore still feel that avarice as a governmental facet is very much there in US and also many other developed countries. It is this avarice which drives colonization of one sort or another. And, private groups can only be helpless onlookers.

 

[Nara]

....I therefore still feel that avarice as a governmental facet is very much there in US and also many other developed countries. It is this avarice which drives colonization of one sort or another. And, private groups can only be helpless onlookers.

I am so sorry sangom, did I say avarice is absent in the West? If so I would like to take it back, but I can't find in any of my posts anything like that, would you please enlighten me when and where I said that. All I could find was this from post #14:

The West is not the enemy, avarice is, which is common to both the West and the East.

and this from post #22:

Among the countries with the most sustained and intense opposition to avarice is U.S. and other countries of the West. They seek common cause with like minded people from everywhere, North, East, West, and South.

Just to clarify, avarice is very much present among the ruling classes, not just in the West but everywhere else, India included. There is sustained opposition to this avarice everywhere, in the West as well as India. My point was not the separate ourselves along aping the West division, but to unite and fight the avarice of the ruling class. Solidarity against the expropriators and colonizers of the old kind and neo kind is what I was talking about to sravna who seem to nurse a visceral kind of aversion for the West.

p.s.
I am curious, what do you think constitutes aping the West? Perhaps sravna and Ravi may also chip in as well and define what in their opinion is aping the West.

 

[sangom]

I am so sorry sangom, did I say avarice is absent in the West? If so I would like to take it back, but I can't find in any of my posts anything like that, would you please enlighten me when and where I said that. All I could find was this from post #14:


and this from post #22:


Just to clarify, avarice is very much present among the ruling classes, not just in the West but everywhere else, India included. There is sustained opposition to this avarice everywhere, in the West as well as India. My point was not the separate ourselves along aping the West division, but to unite and fight the avarice of the ruling class. Solidarity against the expropriators and colonizers of the old kind and neo kind is what I was talking about to sravna who seem to nurse a visceral kind of aversion for the West.

I misread your posts to mean that you are attributing the opposition movements to the credit of those governments. It is now clear.

p.s.
I am curious, what do you think constitutes aping the West? Perhaps sravna and Ravi may also chip in as well and define what in their opinion is aping the West.

I say "aping the west" when our people change over to the western style even when we have had our traditions in certain matters. Some examples which come readily to my mind are :—

1. Putting out candles and cutting a birthday cake, even in very orthodox tabra households. Lately, however, some of them have started a "trick" of saying that they order vegetarian cake. I don't know whether it is possible to make pure vegetarian cake which is so identical to the NV one.

2. Kissing as a mark of showing affection.

3. Of course, women going for very revealing dresses which may be comfortable for them in air-conditioned offices but not outside in many parts of the country, for more than 6 months in a year.

4. Youngsters celebrating valentine's day. I feel we have enough and more days for celebrations in a year and this valentine's day only encourages unrestrained mixing of young men and women and gives rise to rape, acid-throwing, assault on girls, etc.

I don't get any more instances readily but there could be a few more examples.

 

[sravna]

Solidarity against the expropriators and colonizers of the old kind and neo kind is what I was talking about to sravna who seem to nurse a visceral kind of aversion for the West.

p.s.
I am curious, what do you think constitutes aping the West? Perhaps sravna and Ravi may also chip in as well and define what in their opinion is aping the West.

Dear Shri Nara,

Yes I have a strong aversion for the west because the values they follow are antithetical to our old Indian values which I cherish.

Aping the west is, for example,

1. Giving undue importance to appearances
2. Giving undue importance to external behavior
3. Giving undue importance to physical comforts
4. Focusing excessively on self at the expense of relationships
5. Focusing excessively on details at the expense of the big picture

I hope you get the idea. If you have the above characteristics, in my view you are living in an illusory world with superficial understanding of life and experiencing only superficial happiness

 

[C RAVI]

p.s.
I am curious, what do you think constitutes aping the West? Perhaps sravna and Ravi may also chip in as well and define what in their opinion is aping the West.

There are many things that clearly shows "aping the west" choice of today's India.

Specifically the things that are clear about this and are of serious concerns are (as they are trend setters) -

1) Right from teen age, parties on special occasions should not be without liquor. Teen age children, specifically from Upper and Middle Class families are into different mindset, different interaction/speaking styles and are determined to have parties in their circle and that, liquor should be the must for such parties.

2) Sex right from teen age. Boy friend/Girl Friend relationship alone can show that the boy or the girl is now grown up and can be considered in a circle of friends.

3) Teen age children should not be questioned by parents about where are they going, what for, whom to meet and when they would be back. There should be absolute liberty and anything questioned is similar to human rights violation

4) Everything is "Cool" for them. There is nothing wrong! As long as they don't do anything against the law and land up in jail, doing anything is "Cool".

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof Sir,

You don't visit Sing. Chennai and hence you do not see the changes in the society! Though we studied in a co-ed school, we girls rarely

talked to boys. Now the girls are proud to say that they have dozens of 'B F's! They feel free to touch / pat each other. Our sweet home

has a huge tree near the front gate and its shade has become 'lovers spot' after dusk! In any park, beach or zoo, we find teen aged pairs

walk hugging each other and go in search of shady places to romance. Surely the parents would be unaware of these! Shouting at the

top of the voice has become a norm in get-together-s! This is something which has entered our society within two decades!

Talking of adults, a lady doctor tells that 'i-pill' is the most sought after medicine by modern unwed girls! :shocked:

 

[Nara]

Thanks to Sangom, sravna, Ravi and Mrs. RR for their responses. It is clear that what our friends see as "aping the west" is all about social behavior of young boys and girls. The angst is about sexual norms, celebrating Valentine's day, premarital intimacy, revealing clothes, romance in shady places, etc. etc.

Now, this is supposed to be the root cause of many evils in India, really?

Sexual revolution is taking place in the open among the middle class women and the older men just can't take it. The middle class young women don't care about what you and I think, they want to shape their lives the way that want, and they have a right to it, and we need to get used to it. Further, it is the duty of the society at large to give them their space and make it safe for them. Our own humanity will be measured by the extent to which we fulfil this duty.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof Sir,

This 'don't care' attitude is the main cause of decline in morale of our society!

Nothing is considered 'wrong' by the younger generation.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Am I shocked at this thread? This is about the safety of women in India.

So many people justifying rape. You ape the West, You dress provocatively, you go out with boys. So you deserve to be raped.

This is the message that the Indian Society has been conveying. It is again and again reiterated.

A headline in a newspaper

Senior Citizen murdered at home. Then the article about how many senior citizens are being murdered at home and their property looted.

Then we have an article as under:

It is the fault of the senior citizen. They have become westernized. In the good old days they stayed with their sons. No they are staying alone. Aping the West. They have money and they are living in big houses. This is their fault. They should not have accumulated money and should not be showing off their wealth. And so on.

I am ashamed to live in a country where people justify crimes. We find people justifying Rape, Murder, terrorist acts. This is Indian Culture.

 

[Nara]

This 'don't care' attitude is the main cause of decline in morale of our society!

Nothing is considered 'wrong' by the younger generation.

I obviously do not agree with the above statement. Dear Mrs. RR, the youngsters may not care about the same things as what the older generation may care about, like things relating to sex. However, I do think they have an acute sense of morality and it is derived from admirable traits such as honesty, compassion, dignity, equality, etc.

I just can't accept that to the younger generation "nothing is wrong". They may consider premarital sex as no more immoral than gratifying oneself in one's own privacy, but, from this, one cannot conclude they consider nothing is wrong. For instance I think they will find employing a school age little girl as maid servant as quite immoral, which many TB families and others as well have done in the past, and may still do. What they consider as wrong may not jive with what older people consider as wrong, but to me, their sense of morality is no less moral than the older people's.

regards ...

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Are strong laws enough to curb sexual violence - a huge concern in India?

Sexual rights and the fight against violence are two very different things. Women's rights to control their own bodies must be guaranteed. Regarding violence, all perpetrators must be prosecuted and sentenced for the unacceptable crimes they have committed - no crime should be left unpunished.

The state is responsible for guaranteeing male-female equality: Najat Vallaud-Belkacem - The Times of India

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prof Sir,

I am not talking about premarital intimacy alone. And I am not talking about the tambram youngsters alone! You have to travel by a

city bus to find out how the young generation is behaving. No respect for elders, no consideration for invalids or young women who

carry their children while travelling. The comments about fellow passengers is intolerable. Some enter the buses only to 'orasify' young

girls! 'Ei perisu! konjam moodikittu / poththikittu variyA!' will be the instant reply an elderly person gets if he or she tries to advise!

And some bold girl also comment the 'ammAnji' looking boys who smear vibhoodhi on their forehead! You should also listen to the

dialogues when the youngsters talk about their lecturers and professors! It is just disgusting.

Our Tamil cinemas are the main reason for such talks. :blah:

Many bad habits (you may say they are not!) are considered as 'enjoyment' and you should see the crowd in pubs in Sing Chennai!

 

[Raji Ram]

The main reason for the unsafe environment for women in India is mainly because of the Indian cinemas.

 

[vgane]

Not only cinemas but the digital media....It is a free for all with pornography being stored in mobile phones and youngsters watching the same in groups of 2-3! Do you think this is the bane of only India!I had gone to take some print out in a impoverished Mauritania at a web cafe a few years back! And the person enjoying the adult cartoons was a young boy of about 8-9 years old!

 

[Raji Ram]

......And the person enjoying the adult cartoons was a young boy of about 8-9 years old!

This is known as 'pinjilE pazhuththadhu'. This is Kali kAlam!

 

[prasad1]

Am I shocked at this thread? This is about the safety of women in India.

So many people justifying rape. You ape the West, You dress provocatively, you go out with boys. So you deserve to be raped.

This is the message that the Indian Society has been conveying. It is again and again reiterated.

A headline in a newspaper

Senior Citizen murdered at home. Then the article about how many senior citizens are being murdered at home and their property looted.

Then we have an article as under:

It is the fault of the senior citizen. They have become westernized. In the good old days they stayed with their sons. No they are staying alone. Aping the West. They have money and they are living in big houses. This is their fault. They should not have accumulated money and should not be showing off their wealth. And so on.

I am ashamed to live in a country where people justify crimes. We find people justifying Rape, Murder, terrorist acts. This is Indian Culture.

I do share your opinion in general, but you do put it a little too strong. The members here are unable to provide or see a solution. So they blame everything other than themselves. An ape may ape western ways, but if they do not find a western way then they ape an eastern ways.
An so called "ape" has no original idea, so it apes. Are Indians Ape? I hope not, so this cacophony opinions expressing the ills of society is due to aping of west, is misplaced. In India people in high positions are caught abusing women, that is not common in the west.

 

[auh]

Further, it is the duty of the society at large to give them their space and make it safe for them. Our own humanity will be measured by the extent to which we fulfil this duty.

I liked what you have said and agree for the most part, but re the quoted, things do not happen overnight. It, obviously, will be a drawn out process, and till the society recognizes its duty, it would be safer for women to act according to situations.

Regards,

 

[renuka]

Answers in blue:

Aping the west is, for example,

1. Giving undue importance to appearances

What is wrong with that?

You know physical appearances is important too..many Indians neglect this esp when they join work force and do not even use perfumes and have body odour.

For me I believe if a person does not pay himself/herself some attention to have a presentable appearance how to have confidence in their work?

2. Giving undue importance to external behavior

External behavior is what we all are about.
Screw it up and we land in jail.
So we have to watch what we are to the external world.

3. Giving undue importance to physical comforts

Sravna..we all have physical comforts..for eg a lap top to type in forum...we have cars/AC etc..its part of life.
4. Focusing excessively on self at the expense of relationships

This is a double edged sword..everyone has to behave in a relationship..there is no use suffering just to maitain a relationship..if it is not worth it..move on.
No need to be a Tyagi for a relationship that is not worth it..both suffer.
By moving on..we do ourselves and the other person a favor to be happy on our own.

5. Focusing excessively on details at the expense of the big picture

To read..we have to know ABC first..so from small picture we get to big picture..thats how the human mind works.




So Sravna...this is not western values etc..it is just how some choose to handle situations.

 

[vgane]

Answers in blue:

Anything that gets excessive more than the bare essentials will lead to a disadvantage...

For example you need to be conscientious..But being excessive conscientious you become a perfectionist and it gets difficult to complete a job on time...

You need to be having good self confidence to execute tasks...If you become over confident then you become arrogant...

You need money for getting the basic comforts in life...In case it becomes excessive then you start focusing on your own self & your wealth...Happiness becomes the casualty

So what is required is moderation ..A balance...This balance goes out of track in case of the Material world (aka Western)..

Let us strive to develop a balanced outlook to life!