Hinduism Vs Rest - Part- Ii

SIR - due to technical reasons,Hinduism vs rest part I had to be closed. so this thread has been opened to continue the agenda. Let us start with a discussion about the move of t.nadu govt. to impart veda agama education for all castes, so as to make them priests in orthodox temples. pls. consider the following -

1. Temples were neither built by govts. nor maintained out of gov. funds. so do govts. have any right in a secular democracy to tamper with existing rituals at their own whims or fancies on the pretext of ensuring 'social justice'?

2. if being a 'hindu' alone is qualification for becoming priest, why are women not allowed to do so? after all they are also hindus!

3. i always feel that if govts. want to change an existing arrangement in any matter, they should always ensure that the new arrangement is better than existing arrangement. is their any guarantee of that in this matter? first of all what is the need to change the existing arrangement which has worked well for centuries?

4. as we all know, in saiva bramin temples, even vaishnava bramins and why even Lord vishnu cannot enter sanctum sanctorum! like that in vaishnava bramin temples, neither saiva bramins nor Lord siva can enter sanctum sanctorum. so there is so much restriction on even god & bramins also! no bramin even if he wishes cannot become a priest, as this is reserved as a hereditary service. hereditary service is not banned even as per law.
so the present arrangement is not discriminatory in any way, as it puts restrictions even on bramins and even on gods!

5. those who oppose the present move are in a way also opposing bramins from outside priestly families trying to become priests.

6. if agamas are not followed in orthodox temples, then how can they be called orthodox? moreover, orthodox temples were given govt . control only to ensure that they are maintained in the same way as before. the present move of the t.nadu govt. defeats the very purpose of govt. control of temples! temples are not public domain. they are private places, where a person is free to follow his own practices within ambit of constitution. can govts.interfere in games like cricket, football, hockey and bring legislation about rules, regulations of these games? for e.g. if the t.nadu govt. were to introduce a law that cricket should be played in future only with hockey sticks will it not look stupid? it is the international hockey federation which has rights to amend rules of hockey. in case of temples, nobody can amend rules. you either agree or disagree. if you do not like, there is no need for you to go the temples where the practices you dislike are followed. you can even construct a temple of your own following practices which you feel are right.

7. there is no problem in appointing priests of any caste in temples not following agama tradition. in fact in many temples, many non bramins are already there as priests. but in temples following agama tradition, only hereditary priesthood service should be followed.

By habit, I am a stickler for correctness in typing. You may try to rectify spelling of Type-II : It is written as "Type-Ii".

sir - if rituals can be modified as per our whims and fancies, then it automatically means , even history can be modified as we wish. so tomorrow, if a person makes a film on kattabomman, he can very well show kattbomman as a traitor who took bribes from the british and functioned as their agents. or another person can show kattabomman defeating british and emerging successful!

Pitrudharmam!

sir - the main reason why many bramins do not perform inter caste marriages is because, brahminism being totally DISTINCT (i am not saying superior) from other faiths, you cannot find values which you find in brahminism in other categories. (the foremost being vegeteranism).so to continue to pass on the tradition which they inherited from their forefathers, bramins continue to marry within their own fold, as it is their bounden duty & responsibility to maintain the same standards of tradition, tenets & traits. PITRUDHARMAM, i.e. respect for ideals of forefathers & ancestors is an important quality in bramins. if you perform any marriage in your family outside your fold, you do associate yourselves with a category which does not have values of brahminism. and this is considered a betrayal of Pitrudarmam.

Sthaanam!

SIR - sthaanam i.e.. position has more value in orthodox hinduism than age. for e.g. even a married women of age 25 can bless a bachelor of age 27, though she is two years young! the reason, it is said, being a married women, her position is relatively superior, and she is qualified on account of that to bless an older bachelor. similarly, even if a sage or seer is only 20 yrs. old, those who are many years older than the sage should prostrate and get his blessings, as the position of a sanyasi is many many times superior to an ordinary human being.

The Significance Of Paanagam On Rama Navami!

sir - Rama navami is celebrated by consuming a traditional drink called PAANAGAM. it is said Lord Rama was born when the climate was very hot. so those who visited the child were given a drink called paanagam, which was helpful in quenching the thrist of the visitors during those hot times. this practice continues till date, when people prepare paanagam on the occasion of rama navami!

SIR - In tamil barren women i.e. any women who is not able to conceive a child due to various reasons, is called as a MALADI. but strictly speaking there cannot be any barren women. because any women or any couple who are not able to produce an offspring can always adopt a child. of course, it is very easy to say this, but not so easy to implement. it was, perhaps to emphasise this adoption angle that issueless women were called 'maladi', so that they adopt a child (it would be very easy if this child is someone from a relative) and lead a relatively purposeful life thereafter, rather than remaining issueless.

Shocked at the explanation

Naras Sir,

Quite frankly i am shocked at what you had to say about an issueless couple. (I am consciously avoiding woman here, because she alone isn't responsible for generating the progeny)

I admire you for the unwavering respect you have for the elders. I frankly feel that such respect needn't blind us from accepting certain follies committed by the earlier generations - some out of bias, many due to the lack of exposure or knowledge. I certainly think it does no harm in accepting the mistakes of the past because as much as it might show the earlier generation in poor light, it also reflects how as a community we have grown & moved along.

Returning to your assertion that the "M" word was basically used to "influence" woman to adopt is quite far fetched. I see that word basically as an insult to womanhood, reckless & inhuman to the sensitivities of the woman. It was born out of a lack of understanding of the biological process where the woman was pronounced guilty even without a trial.

The word is absolutely demeaning which is to be shunned like plague. An issueless woman psychologically suffers a sense of incompletion (women members may please correct if i am wrong) that she is not able to play a critical & most valuable role in her life & this words adds "insult to injury". I daresay that to call any woman with the "M" word is much much worser than killing an animal for meat, a very dear aspect of brahmanism to you & many others.

I respect your view point on issueless couple (here again i don't refer to woman alone) in being open to options such as adoption but i disagree with you that the "M" word will aid in creating such openness.

The society on the whole should be more empathetic to the cause of adoption / support of the orphanised children instead of shifting the responsibility to the woman.

One another question - Do you really believe that a family will be open to adoption merely on the wishes of the woman ? I would say that the elderly people (FILs, MILs) would usually be the ones who oppose the move since they always aspire for continuation of their biological tree. The poor woman has little or absolutely no say in the matter. And the usage of the word harms her much more than doing her even an iota of help.

sirs - there are so many words in tamil, which have been corrupted. for e.g. take the tamil equivalent of 'hair.' it is 'mayiru'. it is actually a pure tamil word. but because of wrong usage by people, it has been corrupted and now is known as a bad word. similarly, because of wrong usage by people , the 'M' word for issueless woman, has now come to be known as an abusive term. so, i also do not approve of usage of this term in present days.

SIRS-IMHO, there are atleast 2 things in the world which even handicapped persons should have on their own without support from outside.

1. MERIT
2. FECUNDITY.

Caste quotas were born more out of jealousy on seeing bramins dominating educations and govt. jobs, rather than on any other aspect. jealousy has no logic or rationality. it is born out of frustration, anger and helplessness. if i for exampe were to become jealous of Bill Gates will it be fair? after all Bill gates has the merit , talent , courage and all other requisite qualities to become the richest person on planet, which certainly i do not possess as on date to the necessary extent. there is no point in being jealous of a person or a caste just because they are dominant, without thinking about the hard work which they should have put up to attain this position.

i believe each & every person in the world has some merit of his own. the problem arises when we appoint a person for a job which requires more merit than he or she possesses. for e.g. a person who has passed only upto 10th standard may be certainly meritorious for the job of a subordinate staff. but he will definitely cut a sorry figure if he is appointed as a manager of a concern. 'rationalists' say they have 'discovered' that if quotas are awarded, merit will automatically come. but merit is like fecundity. no person in the world will avail the help of another to become a father. this is something he should perform by himself , though he can get guidance of other persons.
similarly no person in the world should be given a seat in an educational sphere or in a job just because of his birth, though he or she can be guided and helped to attain the merit which is necessary for qualifying.

sirs - pls. consider the following which i read while surfing a forum in internet. these are all verses in koran, a favourite of 'rationalists' :

1. Koran 2.223 - 'your wives are as a tilth unto you. so approach your tilth when or how ye will' (this verse says women are objects for men to enjoy)

2. koran 4.25 - ' if any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess' (this verse says women are a man's possessions)

3. koran 23.1, 5-6 - ' abstain from sex. except with those joined tothem in the marriage bond , or (the captives) whom their right hands possess' (this verse reportedly encourages extra marital affairs)

4. Koran 4:3- 'marry women of your choice. two or three or four.'

and much more which potray islam as eulogising incest, wife swap, homosexuality, paedophile & prostitution. In verse 33:50-52 it is said women can be paid for sex or for marriage. Koran 4:34 says men can beat their wives. verse 002.230 sanctions wife swap. verse 0.52.017-024 okays homosexuality.

of course, it is said there are some very good things in the koran also, but they are outumbered by the bad. islam also sanctions animal killings. hindus do kill animals and eat meat, but hinduism does not sanction it. even Bible has lot of pornography &violence as we saw before. but our 'rationalists ' & 'secularists' who are eulogising koran & bible, are chest beating to get the BJP banned , just because the BJP released a CD which opposed islamic fundamentalism.

BTW, is it true that the koran & bible are pornographic? are were they interpolated? what is the truth and where is it?

Sthaanam - Part Ii

sirs - pls. notice that in bramin households children always address their father in singular as 'nee' 'vaa', 'poo', but the same fellow is always addressed with respect as 'neenga', 'vaanga', 'ponga' by the mother of the children. this is because the place of husband is so respectful traditionally. this is a reminder to husbands more than wives that you are holding a post which is so respectful, so your behavior must be in conformity with that.

sirs = the sonia maina dispensation is trying to introduce sex education for school children all over india on the pretext that this is a country of kamasutra & khajuraho. k.sutra & khajuraho are isolated exemptions and not the rules. k.sutra & khajuraho do not form part of indian or hindu scriptures. public, commercial sex has never ever been sanctioned in india. already school & college children are exposed to cigarette & alcohol, thanks to govt. patronage of smoking & drinking. now this will be the last nail inthe coffin. under the present arrangement those who want to learn sex education voluntarily are allowed to do so after a partricular age. there is no need to change this arrangement and impose sex education on school children, because what these children see on channels like sun tv itself is enough for present. governments have a responsibility to maintain standards of decency & decorum in public and so they should not behave like private satellite channels.

Propagating free sex is certainly not the role of a govt. in a modern democracy.

SIRS - Apologists of caste quotas wail that quotas will not affect merit and are even furnishing cooked up statistics to 'prove' this point. but the very fact that defence forces are totally exempted from caste quotas, clearly proves that caste quotas are the very opposite of merit. if defence forces need merit, why not other sectors? does this mean that in banks and insurance for example, there is no need for quality, whereas in defence forces only merit will be the criteria? what sort of 'rationality' & 'social justice' is this?

sirs - i remember reading that jawaharlal nehru, a 'rationalist' had said that ramayana is a conflict between aryans & dravidians. but lord rama is a kshatriya and ravana is also a non bramin. so it is a conflict between 2 non bramins- Lord Rama representing the noble and ravana the evil. how can this be a aryan vs dravidian fight?

2. why not ask school children to voluntarily read select passages of koran and bible instead of compulsorily enforcing sex education in india? after all, it is said there is considerable sexual content in koran and bible. unlike hinduism, where a person can remain in religion without believing in scriptures, in abrahamic religions, you have to believe in each and every letter of the official 'holy' books of the respective religions, or else you will be awarded even death penalty! so, the sexual contents in hinduism are stray, aberrations, voluntary and unofficial, whereas erotism in abrahamic books is official.

3. BTW, IMHO there should have been interpolations in scriptures of all religons, particularly when translations take place to other languages. but it seems in hinduism bad passages have been inserted, where as in other religions, 'good' contents have been inserted to give the books a relatively better look, than it was before. only god(s) know(s) the truth.

4. in modern ,secular democracies, religion is totally voluntary. there is no compulsion for any person to remain in religion. so why should a voluntary system be 'reformed' by govts. when the option of ignoring or converting to other systems is available?

5. 'rationalists' are lamenting that enforcing total prohibition of alochol could result in increase in sales of illicit liquor. this is a lame excuse from spineless administrators. the very fact that there are so many restrictions,(though only on paper) on drinking, shows that this is not as ordinary as consuming mango or orange juice. there are warning messages on bottles and shops selling alcohol. drunker driving is forbidden. so inspite of knowing that this is dangerous for society, particularly for youngsters, teenagers, youth, school & college students, just because 6000 crs, is coming to govt. kitty each & every year from alcohol,the 'rationalist' t.nadu govt,. is selling alcohol on its own to its hapless citizens! pls. visit http://tasmac.tn.gov.in/Turnover.htm. say proudly that you are a tamil! hang your head in shame!!

6. why are 'secular' newspapers like the HINDU not highlighting the omissions and 'commissions' of the yellow shawlist? you cannot say that HINDU is a private paper and so they have right to support or oppose anything. papers like the HINDU are being paid lakhs of tax payers money by various state & central govts. in the form of so many numerous advertisements. so they are surviving out of tax payers money, but at the same time openly flirting with nefarious, anti national lumpens. i think all govts. in india should stop advertising in newspapers out of tax payers money. all govt. departments should open a website of their own and publish all details and advertisement openly in that link for international public. this will be more effective and save crores of tax payers money.

sirs - indian constitution says india is a 'socialist' country. but politicians in india are going capitalist way. the truth is since more than 70% of indians live in rural areas and are dependent on agriculture, india is neither a socialist or capitalist country, but an AGRICULTURAL country- the only one of its kind in the world!

2. it is said prophet mohamed, founder of islam, was very non violent preacher initially when he was in mecca. but he did not meet with much success. so he went to medina,became a very powerful ruler and converted islam into a militant, violent faith. that is why in the koran, there are contradictory teachings on various issues. the soft line belongs to the period when mohammed was in mecca. the hard line, the real face of islam , can be seen when mohammed was in medina.
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/koran.html
http://www.bahai-faith.com/islam-uncensored.html
http://www.harrington-sites.com/Islam.htm - theses links mentions quotations from various persons and sources affirming that islam sanctions free sex, incest, zoophilia (sex with animals) and many other below normal activities.
the link http://www.nobeliefs.com/spp.htm exposes the pornographic face of bible.

ofcourse, it is not my contention all these allegations are 100% true. my only question is why are 'rationalists' & 'secularists' not talking about this at all?

sirs= i have been surfing many international internet sites over the past few days. there are few things i observed .

1. the hatred, disbelief and disrespect which christians have for muslims. so much so that prophet mohammed is potrayed as an illiterate, uneducated person whose knowledge of even elementary maths is so poor he cannot even count numbers. koran is projected as a pornographic , absurd and violence instigating book.

2. the contempt which muslims have for christians. jesus is shown in very poor light, bible is ridiculed as a pornography.

3. many christians and muslims themselves criticise their religion. of course hinduism is not spared too. may be because of inferiority complex that their religion is full of loopholes, practitioners of these abrahamic religions try to show hinduism in poor light also, though even then it fares better than islam and christianity!

4. how is it that in india, muslims and christians are soooo...close to each other?????

Double Standards Of 'secular' Toilet!

sirs = the double standards of the 'secular' toilet is out in the open. where as on the reservation issue these 'secular' parties and newspapers say even supreme court should not intervene, on the other hand the BJP is sought to be derecognised by the election commission,on the pretext that the party released a CD which contained some contents against muslims. so, in cases of 'social justice', 'socialism' & 'secularism' even supreme courts have no power. but in case of minority vote bank politics even a body like election commission which is certainly lower in stature to supreme court can derecognise a national political party on flimsy charges!

As Mr. CHo has pointed out, on the quota issue there are two different stands even for the constitution. in case of jobs, the constitition says, any backward class whose representation in govt. jobs is not proper can be given quotas, in case of education the constitution says 'only those who are socially and educationally backward can be given quotas.' that is why to determine who is socially & educationally backward as on date, the 1931 census is not a valid barometer. this is why courts had quashed the govt. move to grant caste quotas based on 1931 census.

IMHO, even this contention of constitution is democratically wrong. in a democracy a govt. should neither award favours nor discriminate on basis of birth.

let us assume that a community forms 10% of population of india. but it has only 5% representation in govt. jobs. now, if you say they are under represented and award quotas, it encourages them to increase their numbers. this leads to bulging of population in an already over populated country. the ideal contention should be 'you have 5% representation in govt. jobs. but your population is 10%. pls. resort to family planning & try to reduce your population to 5%!.' if this is done, there would be no need for 'social justice'. but is there any politician inthe country who has the courage to say this openly in public?

it is not only in these matters. 'rationalists' have double standards in almost all matters. take the case of women empowerment. we all know, for centuries, in all traditions, it is a practice that age of husband is always more than that of wife. because due to physical, practical reasons, it is insisted that husband should be more aged than wife. 99.99% of marriages in the world before, present & in future always follow this pattern. funnily, even so called 'rationalists' & 'feminists' who pat themselves on the back that they perform 'rational' marriages, ensure that in these marriages also, the age of husband is always more than that of the wife! why? after all you are a 'rationalist' & 'revolutionary feminist'. why are you following a traditional value? similarly why are 'rationalists' & 'feminists' not insisting that in sports there should not be separate games for men & women? after all , if men & women are equal, then there is no need to have separate games based on sex of the participants! does this show that even if man is equal to woman, masculanity is certainly superior to feminism????

sirs- the apology of pro reservationists is that since bramins were 'dominant' for centuries they are now able to dominate in govt. jobs and educational spheres without any quotas. nowhere in the world, there is any proof to say that just because a community or religion is dominant for a few years, they automatically become proficient enough to the extent of being meritorous as bramins. after all, why are muslims and christians who were ruling india for so many centuries , struggling to get jobs in govt. or seats in educational institutions without any quota? is it not a fact that bramins were themselves oppressed by muslims , christians and even non bramin hindus for many centuries (e.g. parasurama)?

2. the 'secularists' & 'communists' who are openly spreading hatred on bramins even in textbooks by publishing their own version of 'history' are demanding that the BJP be banned for opposing muslims! classic example of the pot calling the kettle black!!

sirs - the BJP had released a anti muslim CD as part of its election campaign to uttar pradesh assembly elections. the question is - can the election commission derecognise a national party all over the country , just because that national party released a CD in just one part of the country? after all the complaint against BJP pertains to just one state, not whole of india! of course, action can be taken against individuals found guilty. but what right does the election commission have to ban a national party of such flimsy charges??

sirs - it is a well known fact that in islam, killing of an infidel is justified on the basis of 'jehad' or holy war on non believers. taking this license, many muslims all over the world have killed and are killing fellow innocent muslims also, on the pretext that these muslims were betrayers of islam, and so, they had to be punished!!

SIRS- Let us continue our(?) discussion(!) on caste quotas. the barometer for defining an 'oppressed' caste as per india's constituton is perhaps the most absurd and ridiculous benchmark anywhere in the world for any matter. any caste whose representation in govt. service is below its population, according to 'secularists' is an 'oppressed' caste. putting in other words, the least meritorious a caste is and the more the population of the caste, the more the chances that it would be declared 'oppressed'. tomorrow, if bramins discard family planning and increase their population above their representation in govt,. service, may be bramins themselves could be declared as 'most oppressed'. and this is 'social justice'!!!

The Explanation For Suffering!

sirs - why do humans suffer? Hinduism is the only religion in the world which gives a satisfactory answer to this question. as per hinduism, a man is suffering because he or she may have committed many sins during previous birth, and so the suffering in present birth is punishment for sins committed during previous births. since hinduism is only religion in the world believing in re birth, a hindu can satisfy himself of herself that 'i am suffering for sins committed during previous births. if i lead a honest life in this birth, atleast in my next birth i will be relieved of all sufferings.' but in other religions there is no convincing answer to the question of human suffering. as Dr. arunshourie points out in his book MISSIONARIES IN INDIA, 'in the quran, for instance, all the good a person does is because of allah, all the evil is due to himself. moreover, as not a leaf moves without his willing it, why does he predispose poor man to do the first wrong thing which then sets him on the course to eventual suffering? to instruct him all the better! is the standard answer. surely, it would not have been beyond the capacity of the one who is all powerful to devise more direct methods of instruction. those more direct methods which did not rely on suffering as an instructional device would have accord better too with his being all compassion'

'but he put suffering and set backs in your way to test your faith in him. that is the recurring refrain in quranic lore as it is in the teaching of the church. but what sort of a being is that, which having created this infinite universe, is so preoccupied with whether this puny little man in this speck of an earth in this one of a myriad galaxies is devoted to him or not?'

so i am not able to reconcile the picture of god which has been painted for us by these abrahamic religions with the persistence of evil and suffering, though i am an ardent secularist.

why did allah & jesus not save those who died in tsunami? Brahma, vishnu, siva and other hindu gods cannot do this, as their hands are tied even though they are gods, because they had to punish those who had committed sins in their previous births. But, in other religions, after all, there is only one birth. so why not allow poor man to enjoy life in this only birth instead of killing him by tsunami? hindu gods atleast allow humans many births and so there is a chance that you can enjoy life in atleast one of your births. but even this assurance is absent in other religions.

sirs - i have heard many muslims boast that male circumcision is very good scientifically and medically. but in india, circumcision has caused many riots. many dead bodies, whose religions could not be identified, were easily identified as muslims after verifying whether the person has been circumcised or not. this enabled violence to spread easily and quickly , as the fact that a muslim has been murdered was enough for islamic fundamentalists to indulge in violence. and this led to counter violence from hindu militant groups. this is how bombay riots in 1993 spread thick and fast/

"dhristhi"!!!

sirs = continuing the discussion about BJP, i think , at the most, the election commission should have confiscated the 'communal' CD, filed cases, registered compliants, conducted enquiries and brought to book the individuals responsible for the preparation and/or publicising of CD. but instead of believing in judiciary, the election commission has arrogated to itself the power of derecognising a national party on this minor charge, reminding one of the dark days of emergency,as Mr. L.K.Advani has rightly said.

is the BJP affected by 'Dhristhi".? it is believed in hinduism, if you are very much well off in some matters so much so that you attract the attention of other persons, some body may curse you and you may run into trouble for no fault of yours. believe me, it has happened to me many times in my life! one should be very careful in trying not to attract the attention of other as much as possible, so that those who are below you do not feel jealous of you and curse you landing you in some sort of trouble. of course, alternatively, there are many 'parikaarams' to ward off the evil eyes also!!