Hinduism Vs Rest - Part- Ii

[NARAS]

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Paranoia??

sirs - it is not my case that any person can say anything about any religion. after all india is a democracy, whatever you do and say must be within ambit of constitution. but to chest beat so violently, over act and over react and put undue pressure on election commission to derecognise BJP just because BJP released a CD and advertisements containing anti muslim contents, only shows the immaturity of the secular toilet in india.

regarding vedic training for all castes, notice that, as has already been pointed out, though the yellow shawlist is saying that his move to impart vedic education to non bramins is born out of his concern for 'equality', women have been totally excluded! a woman cannot become priest in orthodox temple even now. but the yellow shawlist is not bothered about this. this is because, even in abrahamic religions, which are generally anti women, no woman can become priest in their places of worship. since the yellow shawlist is following standards set by abrahamic religions for hinduism, he does not consider excluding women as a violation. so, in effect, the yellow shawlist is trying to abrahamise hinduism.

in hinduism, al rituals are performed by persons in topless attire only. it is considered a form of respect for god. this is why women are totally excluded from all levels of orthodoxy. but what is the reason for exclusion of woman in abrahamic religions? apart from the anti woman attitude of these faiths, there is no other reason!

 

[NARAS]

The Ugly Face Of Lyndocracy!

sirs - indian election commission,it seems is back to the days of the notorious J.M.Lyngdoh, who was so 'close' to sonia maina gandhi, he postponed elections frequently on silly pretexts to help the maina. just like the retired krishnamurthy, there is another lyndocratic election commissioner called navin chawla, who is accused of involvement in corruption also. this chawla is also reportedly a stooge of the sonia maina. ironically, when lyngdoh postponed elections just to help the congress party, it was hailed by the 'secular' toilet as a victory for democracy. but now, when judges are questioning caste quotas, it is being said , this is beyond the purview of judiciary! Lyngdoh has retired, but it seems lyndocracy will continue to dominate democracy in election commission.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- no religion in the world stands for equality, because no religion in the world allows priesthood for women. but in hinduism alone, there is a logical reason for excluding women. as we all know, women are totally kept out of orthodox rituals in hinduism, as it is insisted all orthodox rituals have to be performed in topless attire. so strictly speaking, there cannot be even token presence of women in orthodox rituals as per scriptures.

the important point, is it is not the duty of religion to enforce equality. it is duty of individuals and society. that is why i am opposed to the govt. of the yellow shawlist poking his nose into temple affairs on the pretext of enforcing 'equality'.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - bramins generally do not have the habit of keeping pet animals like cats, dogs in home. it seems it is a good habit. i was reading in a latest issue of 'junior vikatan' how a small boy was unfortunately bitten to death by his own pet dog.

 

[NARAS]

sirs= all over the world, bramins have always been in a minority, ever since brahminism originated. except for a handful pockets, where they were in a majority. in these areas where they were in a majority, they dominated other castes. seeing this, some bramins in who lived in areas were bramins were in minority, perhaps should have tried to acquire the same dominance. naturally this should have met with resistance from other castes, and conficts between bramins and dravids.

 

[NARAS]

Virgin Sonia????

SIRS - if mother mary is a virgin inspite of delivering jesus, then can sonia and priyanka and other congresswomen like ambika soni, renuka chowdhury, girija vyas also call themselves virgins????

 

[NARAS]

sirs - a reformer is one who strives for elimination of evils from society and substitutes them by good. but how can persons who do not have any respect for law of their country be called reformers? indian law & constitution clearly ban abusing any religion or caste. so 'rationalists' who disobey this law and abuse bramins are at the best pseudo reformers.

These pseudo reformers have 'discovered' that pre islamic india was a battefield enveloped by conflicts between untouchables and upper castes. once islam invaded err...sorry....entered india, these 'untouchables' converted to islam to escape the tyranny of untouchability. so islam was an emancipator for the 'oppressed', and most of present day muslims are descendants of these converts.
if 'oppressed' were looking for emancipators, why did they not convert to buddhism & jainism before itself? moreover, it is said, in quran, it has been mentioned that woman is a commodity for man to enjoy! will so many persons, even if they are 'oppressed' convert to a 'ideology' which says their mothers, sisters, wives, daughters & other women of their family are commodities for men to enjoy???
it should be remembered here, in hinduism though there are examples like khajuraho & kamasutra, they are not official symbols of hinduism. they at best represent personal viewpoint of persons who created them. but quran & bible are official symbols of islam & christianity respectively,and hence the sexual content in abrahamic books cannot be compared with the erotic contents in khajuraho and kamasutra.

 

[GGR]

Naras, Not sure what this statement has got to do with this thread or to do with religion or where you got the notion that these present day women you talk about consider themselves as virgin.

On the other hand, the story of Mother Mary is similar to the ones we have in our Mahabharatha. Of course the Christians themselves are so divided on this issue and are still more divided with thier views with Jews.

SIRS - if mother mary is a virgin inspite of delivering jesus, then can sonia and priyanka and other congresswomen like ambika soni, renuka chowdhury, girija vyas also call themselves virgins????

-GGR

 

[hariharan1972]

Not in good taste

SIRS - if mother mary is a virgin inspite of delivering jesus, then can sonia and priyanka and other congresswomen like ambika soni, renuka chowdhury, girija vyas also call themselves virgins????

Suresh / Naras,

This statement is not in good taste at all. It is not for us to question the beliefs of other religions & even if not in such a crude manner.

You have other ways of proclaiming your dislike for Congress. Motherhood is sacred - There are bad sons & daughters but never a bad mother. So let us not denigrate them.

Hindu mythology is also full of such "unthinkables". When any Hindu god / godess is criticised we cannot tolerate it. By the same count, we have no right to defame the belief system of any other religion.

I would be glad if you withdraw this post.

 

[GGR]

Invaders: India has always seen traders and invaders throughout its history, dating back 2500 years. Well, as our history and scriptures tell us or the lack of documentation, no one is really sure as to where the Brahmins came from or how they were formed. What we do have documented is what status they had in society and what was expected of them.

Arthashastra is the only document (that I know off) which talks in detail about how the society was back in Mauryian empire. Close inspection of that document/book tells us that no caste was considered great or untouchable, mearly the caste told what the persons belonging to that caste was responsible for and what their value was in the society. Example: If a misdeed was done by a brahmin, what his punishment was and if a misdeed by a shudra was done, what his punishment was. If you notice carefully, neither the shudra nor the brahmin was subject to very harsh punishment as they formed the foundation of the society. But as for soldiers and traders, the punishment were harsher.
(Correct me if I have interpreted it wrongly)

Coming back to Islam and invaders, Indians; Hindus, Jains and Budhists alike were being converted on and off to different religions and idelogy back in the days following the fall of the Mauryian empire. So when each of us trace back our family tree to the Mauryian era, it would be almost logically impossible to say if we are from the primary Brahmin caste or a derivative of a converted Indian. Since I have not experienced the last 2000 years off hand nor have I read all the documents/books which deal with the last 2000 years of history of India, I am basing this on what I have come to read in some books and what my community has come to accept or conclude.

http://www.mandyam.com/Origin.htm

Kajhuraho and Kamasutra: Most of the western world are blind to what hinduism is and if you talk to the common folk in US (example: Washington DC metro area), they have heard of mainly 3 or 4 religions viz Christian, Muslim, Jew and Scientology. (I had an interesting conversion with a African-American on the subway {underground train -- Metro} in DC who had not heard of Hinduism. He is not an embodiment of Americans, but most of America has such people.)

Hinduism, more appropriately, India/Bharath was a pool for knowledge almost 2000 years ago (I am saddened to say this). So in that state of India, people read and researched in many different fields. That is to say that Kamasutra was a well researched and written book (It has its draw backs -- book cannot be used as a guide in present day world). See back then, Indian society had a culmination of many aspects of life and there was no shame in dwealing in those aspects, which are now a days considered a shame or bad. It was acceptable back in those days for men and women to be lustful within their boundries and the society provided the needed outlets.

But once again, after being invaded by many different countries and religions our old traditions were changed and mis-interpreted giving rise to an idealogically diverse society. I would bet my money on these repeated invasions which has given rise to this notion of Brahmins being of higher race and shudras being of lower race, while the whole reason for this division in the first place was to have structure in the society and to have skilled labourers in their fields.

Having said that, I have opened another Pandora's box when it comes to the issue or discussion about other Hindu communities (than brahmins) learning about Vedas.

Bottom line, I think Hinduism is great, being a Brahmin gives us a lot of responsibilty in this society and many things are expected of us, which in the first place was created by the mis-informed and the mislead.

As Naras pointed out to me on another thread as to how the TN Govt. had ulterior motives to their indulgence in Vedic education to other Hindus than Brahmins, we as a society should be imparting the knowledge of our culture to others ( I dont want to get into the debate of non-brahmis becoming priests, as it is a can of worms by itself). Example: There are more people in US learning about the Indian cultures, viz Yoga, balanced design of a house, Vedic Mathematics (rapid calculations) than in India itself.

Qurun: I have read parts of the qurun and the bible. Yes some parts of it say that women are symbols of sex, but those translations could be pulled out of context by some westerner or by a non-muslim or by an unread person, we will never know unless we read the text and translate it outselves.


So there you go folks, some of my thoughts on the subject in this thread. Please feel free to comment and advise. Please dont pull words and sentences out of context and debase the purpose of this discussion/thread/forum.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- christianity & islam have always been the favourite religion of congressmen, 'rationalists', 'communists' & 'secularists'. they never question abrahamic religions, but even misuse govt. funds to potray hinduism in an offensive manner. take the case of aryan invasion. we all know that this is a personal inference of some persons. any person has got full rights to infer anything and publish his views in his own or any private domain. but how can these personal inferences be published in govt. prescribed text books? govt. is run out of tax payers money. so what i am saying is, if personal inferences potraying hinduism in a poor light can b published even by gvts. will the same govt. publish views& counter views about 'virginity' of mother mary?

take the case of islam. it is more of a personality cult , rather than a religion. the duty of a muslim is to perpetuate the 'values' of islam blindly without questioning them. will govts. in india publish critical views about islam as they have done about hinduism?

in hinduism also, there are some example like 'virgin' mary. but remember there are so many gods & goddesses here, and only a few are in the same league like 'mother' mary. in any case, it is not mandatory for an orthodox
hindu to believe in these, whereas it is compulsory for a orthodox christian to believe in 'virginity' theory. that is the difference.

Motherhood is indeed sacred, as hari has said. but so is hinduism!

brahminsm is not mentioned as superior, but DISTINCT from other castes & groups.

Kamasutra is not an official book of hinduism, where as quran & bible are 'official' views of gods.

it will be difficult for me to totally withdraw my views, having posted them already. but bowing to appeals from fellow members, respecting their sentiments, i would like to permanently close any further discussion about this 'virgin' topic. i would also not write anything about this in future in this forum.

 

[NARAS]

sirs- as we all know, there was a time when people of other varnas were allowed to convert to brahminism. it were these convertees from other varnas & their descendants who indulged & initiated untouchability, and not the original bramins. that is why,it is said, bramins decided not to allow conversion to braminism from other castes.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - it is said Dr. K.J.YESUDOSS, famous singer, a christian wants to 'enter' the holy Guruvayoor temple, but has been refused permission. why should non hindus want to enter hindu temples? is it not against their faiths? what is the motive? it is highly suspicious. let them convert to hinduism, and then they will be automatically allowed entry!!!

 

[NARAS]

sirs- continuing about non hindus wanting to enter temples, temples are like a country. will any foreigner be allowed to entry a country without passport or visa? even a citizen of a country can vote in an election only in the constituency in which he is registered as a voter. animals do not have boundaries, but humans have. so what is wrong in temples placing restrictions on people entering it???????????

 

[silverfox]

Dear Suresh:
While I enjoy your postings, I am sorry I will have to disagree with you in restricting other people of other religions entering our temples. Mosques and Churches do not prohibit Hindus entering their places of worship. Why should we prohibit them? Maybe they will be spiritually enlightened once they enter our temples!

 

[hariharan1972]

I second

I second what SF wrote.

There are multitude of issues though with faux pas from Devasthanam & Minsiter's side.

Devasthanam :

a) When Zail Singh wanted to visit Guruvayoor, he was allowed provided he removed his bandgala top. He refused & hence denied entry.

Now wasn't Zail Singh a non-hindu by definition ? How was it ok for him but not Dr KJY

b) What kind of double standard is that we enjoy Dr KJY's songs on 'Kuchi Krishnan' but deny him the opportunity to have darshan of the Lord ? Even the Lord will be keen to see him. Now you can't take the defence of 'profession'. The bhakti & bhavam of Dr KJY evident in his rendition cannot be equated to merely doing one's job. It is something much much more than being transient.

Mr Minister

a) I find the minister in the wrong for writing to the Devasthanam o-n-l-y for Dr KJY. I would rather prefer him writing to the Devasthanam to keep it's doors open to anyone who is genuine in his respect for Hinduism, Guruvayoorappan & falls in line with the rules & regulations of entry.

In Tirupathi to the best of my knowledge non-hindus are allowed provided they sign a declaration proclaiming their faith in Lord Venki.

 

[NARAS]

sirs= there are 2 kinds of temples - 1. orthodox temples and 2. temples not following orthodox rituals. there s no problem in non hindus visiting non orthodox temples. the restriction is emphasised only in case of orthodox temples. remember , for so many years india did not have diplomatic relations with israel. we did not allow even a single israeli on indian soil for so many years. even today there are restrictions on even indians staying in states like kashmir & 7 north eastern states. so even in secular domains, placing restrictions is not consider uncivilised. so what is wrong in religious domain placing restrictions? after all, religion is based on tradition, and traditions cannot be changed as per whims and fancies of individuals.

 

[NARAS]

Helmet Kalaignaa!!!

SIRS - soon, all over chennai , compulsory wearing of helmets whilst driving 2 wheelers is to be enforced. an activist called Traffic ramasamy approached the high court pleading for compulsory wearing of helmets whilst driving 2 wheelers as fatal deaths were increasing due to accidents involving 2 wheelers. a notice was sent to the respondent, the dmk govt. of t.nadu. strangely, the govt. of the yellow shawlist agreed immediately to enforce compulsory helmets without even bothering to argue the case. it is not all that easy in hot climate of chennai to wear prescribed helmets whilst riding 2 wheelers. politicians like yellow shawlist always travel in AC cars and so they are not bothered about this. i think the govt. could have launched a vigorous campaign to force people to voluntarily resort to helmet wearing. this new move may 'help' the helmet industry, but the 2 wheeler riders and traffic police are going to have a nightmare for sure. it is not clear what is the reason behind this sudden concern for helmets. why is the dmk govt. hellbent on increasing sales of helmet? ironically it was this same yellow shawlist who in 1989, abolished a law which was in force till then that helmets should be worn whilst driving 2 wheelers! wonder whether dayanidhi maran is going to start a helmet factory???!!!

when many innocent people were killed in a rail accident recently, the yellow shawlist fumed that they were killed because they were planning to go to a temple. that is why the crocodile tears shed by the yellow shawlist for persons perishing due to road accidents fails to muster enough support.

 

[NARAS]

Kalaignaa Kewal!!!

SIRS - the dmk chief minister of t.nadu 'boasts' that he has completed 50 yrs. of continuous tenure as M.L.A. i.e. member of t.nadu legislative assembly. but actually,the yellow shawlist 'resigned' from the assembly twice- once in 1984 and then in 1991 on various silly pretexts. he was not a member of the assembly from 1984 t0 1989 and then from 1991 to 1996. so he has not completed 50, but only 40 yrs. as member of the assembly.


the yellow shawlist has planned, out of tax payers money, a function in assembly itself to 'congratulate' (?) himself(!). but the president of india Dr. Kalam has refused to attend the function. opposition parties like AIADMK & MDMK have also decided to boycott the function. emerging with eggs all over his face, the yellow shawlist has pathetically tried to garner sympathy of the people by quailing, wailing and crying in the assembly. some ministers have also quailed like ducks in the assembly precincts itself. 'kewal' in tamil means wailing. that explains the title of this posting.

 

[NARAS]

SIRS - we all know that hinduism is the only religion inthe world which believes in rebirth. as has been mentioned before, it is believed that each and every person will be born in each & every varna in each & every birth based on his or her karma i.e. actions. it is also believed in hinduism that a person will be born as man and woman in his or her various births alternately. so there cannot be any discrimination against woman in hinduism for the simple reason that this is the only faith in the world which believes that a person who is a man in this birth should have been a woman in his previous or should be a woman in next birth.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - as a matter of fact, in hinduism, not only women, even animals & plants & objects are considered as being born as human beings in one of their births. where as in abrahamic religions, women & animals are referred as 'they' as if they are outsiders, in hinduism, women, animals & plants are considered as much part of human life as humanity itself. the only group detested by orthdox hinduism is non vegeteranism , as it is considered a great sin in orthodox hindu faith to kill animals when you are unprovoked.

 

[NARAS]

sirs - IMHO, there are probably three ideals which are central to hinduism.
1. vegeteranism
2. idol worship
3. belief in re birth.

of these, jainism is only other religion in the world which believes in vegeteranism. all other religions, except islam believe in idol worship. but hinduism is probably only religion in the world which believes in re birth.

 

[viswanathswamy.page.tl]

tamil, the dravidian language

recently i had to face a question from a tamil friend that the brahmins in tamilnadu disown the dravidian culture then why they speak tamil, the pure dravidian language??

 

[NARAS]

sirs- simple! tamil bramins speak in tamil because tamil is their mother tongue!!!

 

[rxrajamo]

Good one Suresh.

Vishwanathswamy, the whole dravidian & aryan thing is a myth perpetuated by our politicians. BTW, there is no logic in arguing that all people who accept the so called dravidian culture should speak Tamil. The so called dravidian culture is supposed to include malayalam, kannada and telugu speaking people too. Have they become non-dravidians now ? You might want to check with your friend.

Ramki

sirs- simple! tamil bramins speak in tamil because tamil is their mother tongue!!!