எங்கே Sri Vaishnavam

[kunjuppu]

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Mr. Kunjuppu,
Before answering your question I would like you to enlighten me on the smiley which you have planted in your message. What are you conveying? You can wait to share a piece of your mind. After getting your reply to my above query I would give you a piece of my mind. Eagerly looking forward to your enlightening answer, I remain a humble tamil brahmin member of this forum.You have of course the freedom to ban me if you want without any notice to me.cool.

sure enough suraju, though i would not put on any air to enlightenment. so if you expect enlightened answers from me, you are bound to be disappointed.

i ban you without any notice. so what you say. have a good laugh, as it is like a toothless old man trying to crack a walnut

re the smiley, was meant as a substitute for a different reply if you were sarcastic, because i think, moderation here has been better, since i have left the post.

i would like to take credit for that, as being the general cause of deterioration of the standards of moderation past two months, through my presence.

it was all a grand ploy, to increase the prestige of moderation ie deliberately lower the standard, throw out the rascal and finally claim due glory to performance perfect.

with this penetrating query of yours, the cat is now out of the bag

hope i am clear enough.

thank you.

 

[Nara]

Hello everyone....

Sri Vaishnavas take a lot of pride in their humility (ha ha, worn out joke).

Actually it is true, they do take a great deal of pride in the humility of Azhvars. So let me give a glimpse of this, which may be quite pertinent in this troubled times.

A little background to this story....

Like all other sects, Sri Vaishnavas also stress humility and service, albeit to other Sri Vaishnavas. Many Azhvars stressed this. There are 20 verses in Swami Nammazhvar's in Thiruvaymozhi that are especially poignant. The first 10 of these 20 starts with the phrase பயிலும் சுடரொளி (3.7.1) and for this reason this collection of 10 verses is called பயிலும் சுடரொளி பதிகம்.

Now to the story....

There was a great vedic panditha living in Sri Rangam during the time of Ramanuja. The panditha was quite intrigued by all these Sri vaishnavas singing Azhavar pasurams and wanted to study it and see what is so special about it.

So, he approached Ramanuja and asked him to teach Thiruvaymozhi. Ramanuja appreciated his interest, but told him he does not have the time to be his personal tutor, and that he will appoint a suitable teacher for him.

The punditha was a little hesitant. Noticing this, Ramanuja asked him what the matter was. The panditha replied that he being a learned and respected Brahmana, did not want to be a pupil of anyone below his stature. He said that he wouldn't mind prostrating at the feet of Ramanuja, but falling at the feet of anyone else would be a problem.

Ramanuja told him that he understood his predicament and assured him this problem is easily solved. Ramanuja said that the appointed teacher will come to the panditha's house, prostrate at the feet of the panditha, sit on the floor while the panditha sat in his elevated seat, and teach him Thiruvaymozhi. This was quite satisfactory to the panditha and the lessons started with the agreed upon protocol.

Few months went by.

One day, the panditha came running to Ramanuja with tears flowing from his eyes. He fell at Ramanuja's feet and cried inconsolably saying he has been blind to his ego and arrogance all these years.

Ramanuja calmly remarked to the people around him that the lessons have reached பயிலும் சுடரொளி பதிகம். He asked the panditha to rise and told him that Ramanuja knew all along that this would happen when the lesson reached this stage.

From then on, the panditha became a grateful servant to his Thiruvaymozi teacher.

What is in these 10 pasurams that brought about such a striking transformation? Let me cite just two verses from this 10.

Verse 3.7.1
பயிலும் சுடரொளி மூர்த்தியைப் பங்கயக் கண்ணனை
பயில இனிய நம் பாற்கடல் சேர்ந்த பரமனை
பயிலும் திருவுடையார் யவரேலும் அவர் கண்டீர்
பயிலும் பிறப்பிடைதோறு எம்மை ஆளும் பரமரே.


பயிலும் சுடரொளி = always rising (never fading) brilliant light
பயில இனிய = never diminishing in sweetness
பயிலும் திருவுடையார் = those for whom the lord is the only fruit
யவரேலும் அவர் கண்டீர் = whomsoever they may be, irrespective of jAti
பயிலும் பிறப்பிடைதோறு = the births that comes again and again
எம்மை ஆளும் பரமரே = in all those births they are my masters


Verse 3.7.
குலந்தாங்கு சாதிகள் நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்து எத்தனை
நலந்தான் இலாத சண்டாள சண்டாளர்கள் ஆகிலும்
வலந்தாங்கு சக்கரத்து அண்ணல் மணிவணற்கு ஆள் என்று உள்
கலந்தார், அடியார் தம் அடியார், எம் அடிகளே.

This pasuram is not difficult to understand. Basically the Azhvar says even if a person is an avarna and is the most despicable of Sandalas, if he is a devotee of Sriman Narayana, then his slave's slave is my master.

I wish Azhvar opened it up to all good people, but he was a devout Sri Vaishnava and he wanted his fellow Sri Vaishnavas to be broadminded.

What is interesting is that this Azhvar, who is venerated as ப்ரபன்ன ஜன கூடஸ்தர், master of all Prapannas, is still considered a shudra because of his birth. Another interesting fact is that he is at the top of the Acharya lineage of all Sri Vaishnavas -- the only Azhvar to be in the lineage.

The official signature of the head of Sri Ahobila Matam is, ஸ்ரீசடகோபஸ்ரீ, after Swami Nammazhvar. The names of each and every head of the line of acharyas of this Matam contains சடகோபன்.

So much theoretical reverence is given to a Shudra, and yet, there is so much casteism in practice. However deeply religious and devoted a Shudra is, he has to stand at the end of the line, after all the Brahmnas who may not even know how many azvars there are.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Advice well meant, given well and fully accepted and appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks also to Sri Kunjuppu Ji for the kind words.

Let us move on with the resumption of knowledge here.

Regards,
KRS

The words of moderators are indeed final. They have every right and indeed an obligation to edit or remove posts in the broader interest of the forum.

All I wish is that it is done with a velvet glove. Public dressing down can be avoided as this may make the member feel humiliated.

just my 2 cents....

 

[Nara]

Please look into a tamil dictionary and find out what is the meaning of the words kodumin and kollmin. Of all the meanings there is no marriage even remotely indicated.

Hello Shri Raju, Greetings.

I took your advice to heart and looked up the two words, கொடு and கொள். The dictionary I used is the one published by LIFCO. The title is "தமிழ் - தமிழ் - ஆங்கில பேரகராதி".

கொடு:

1. ஈதல் செய் (give, donate)
2. பங்கிடு (distribute)
3. உடன்படு (permit)
4. (இலக்) ஒரு துணை வினை (gr) an auxiliary verb (கா.) சொல்லிக்கொடு (வ.சொ) கொடுத்தல்

கொள்:

1. கையால் எடு (grasp)
2. பெறு (receive)
3. விலைக்கு வாங்கு (buy)
4. கவர்ந்து செல் (carry off)
5. உட்கொள், கருதிக் கொள் (hold)
6. மணந்துகொள் (marry)
7. கற்றுக்கொள் (learn)
8. கருது (think)
9. ஏற்றுக்கொள் (accept)
10. நன்கு மதித்தல் செய் (esteem)
11. பொறுத்தல் செய் (endure)
12. ஒத்திரு (be similar)
13. பொருந்து (be suitable)
14. (இலக்) ஒரு துணை வினை an auxiliary verb (கா.) செய்து கொண்டான் (வ.சொ) கொள்ளுதல்

At least according to this dictionary, marriage is indeed one of the meanings for the word கொள். Of course, no Sri Vaishnava commentator includes marriage in their interpretations.

But, Azhvar's words do allow an interpretation that includes marriage.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

This is my personal appeal to the vaishanavites here.

Each and every Azhwar Pasuram is a wonderful masterpiece. However,it is my humble opinion that the way it is delivered in Perumal temples has to be improved. The Battachariars delivers the pasuram just like text in a book without any pann or musical tone. Most of us are unable to hear what they are saying.

In the Siva temples the Gurukkal doesn't deliver Devaram, Thiruvasagam etc. An external
Oduvar (not belonging to TB community) sings the pathigams with mix of both bakthi rasam and pann. Everybody present in the sannathi not only enjoys the music but are able to understand the meanings to a great extent.

I don't know who controls `Vaiganasam' and other systems followed in most of the Perumal temples. But if any of you have the opportunity to talk to the controlling authority, please suggest them to change the method of delivery of Azhwar pasurams. It will make people present more interested in learning and understanding the Pasurams & its meanings.

Please note that this only my humble suggestion and I don't want to interfere in the systems followed in the Perumal temples. If you feel I am interfering, please treat my request as withdrawn

All the best

 

[suraju06]

Hello Shri Raju, Greetings.

I took your advice to heart and looked up the two words, கொடு and கொள். The dictionary I used is the one published by LIFCO. The title is "தமிழ் - தமிழ் - ஆங்கில பேரகராதி".


கொடு:

1. ஈதல் செய் (give, donate)
2. பங்கிடு (distribute)
3. உடன்படு (permit)
4. (இலக்) ஒரு துணை வினை (gr) an auxiliary verb (கா.) சொல்லிக்கொடு (வ.சொ) கொடுத்தல்

கொள்:

1. கையால் எடு (grasp)
2. பெறு (receive)
3. விலைக்கு வாங்கு (buy)
4. கவர்ந்து செல் (carry off)
5. உட்கொள், கருதிக் கொள் (hold)
6. மணந்துகொள் (marry)
7. கற்றுக்கொள் (learn)
8. கருது (think)
9. ஏற்றுக்கொள் (accept)
10. நன்கு மதித்தல் செய் (esteem)
11. பொறுத்தல் செய் (endure)
12. ஒத்திரு (be similar)
13. பொருந்து (be suitable)
14. (இலக்) ஒரு துணை வினை an auxiliary verb (கா.) செய்து கொண்டான் (வ.சொ) கொள்ளுதல்

At least according to this dictionary, marriage is indeed one of the meanings for the word கொள். Of course, no Sri Vaishnava commentator includes marriage in their interpretations.

But, Azhvar's words do allow an interpretation that includes marriage.

Cheers!

Dear Mr Narayan,
Now that the word கொடு is out of the way, we can look at the word கொள்.The first three meanings given here are the only ones which are the meaning of the word standing alone as a வினை சொல். There is also another meaning which is not given in the dictionary for the word and that is ஒரு வகைப்பயறு.But this is when the word comes as a noun (பெயர்ச்சொல்). Other than these four meanings all other meanings given here are when the கொள் comes as a suffix or sometimes as prefix to a main verb. That is,this word is a auxiliary verb which makes sense only when in such contexts it comes along with another word.Like in கவர்ந்து கொள்,கருதிக்கொள், மணந்துகொள்,கற்றுக்கொள், ஏற்றுக்கொள்,
பொறுத்துக்கொள் etc.,
மணந்து கொள் என்று கொள்ளவேண்டுமானால் அங்கு மணம் வர வேண்டும். ஆழ்வார் பாசுரத்தில் 'மணம்' இருக்கிறது. ஆனால் அது தெய்வீக 'மணம்' லௌகீக 'மணம்' இல்லை.Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

sure enough suraju, though i would not put on any air to enlightenment. so if you expect enlightened answers from me, you are bound to be disappointed.

i ban you without any notice. so what you say. have a good laugh, as it is like a toothless old man trying to crack a walnut

re the smiley, was meant as a substitute for a different reply if you were sarcastic, because i think, moderation here has been better, since i have left the post.

i would like to take credit for that, as being the general cause of deterioration of the standards of moderation past two months, through my presence.

it was all a grand ploy, to increase the prestige of moderation ie deliberately lower the standard, throw out the rascal and finally claim due glory to performance perfect.

with this penetrating query of yours, the cat is now out of the bag

hope i am clear enough.

thank you.

Mr. Kunjuppu,
I am amused and I leave it at that. Thank you.

 

[RVR]

Both Sri Raju and Prof Nara are going deep into Tamil Grammer. It is really interesting to read both your postings but please don't ask people like me to go and read Tamil grammer at this age. If you conduct a test probably I may fail.:help:

Please go ahead and enlighten all of us.

All the best

 

[silverfox]

Dear Shri Swaminathasharma:

No no, your original posting was not deleted; it was just moved to a different forum "Philosophies and Traditions" and the thread name is "Vaishnavism - Vadagalai and Thengalai". We are having a lovely discussion as well as being educated by Prof. Nara. Please go there to read all about it. By the way, thanks for asking that question; we all are learning new things!

I think my post was deleted here....

I had asked for some details and difference of Vadakalai and Thenkalai vaishnava Sampradhayams....

Sorry....i think no body interested to answer....or perhaps not to be answered....

Anyhow no issues..... let the discussion be continued...

Thanks once again

 

[kunjuppu]

Because I do not want to distract from the flow of postings on the subject of this thread, I am posting my response to this post here.

'Vadagalai and Thengalai' thread was carved out of this thread on the request of Sri Nara Ji, as there were many posts, including Sri Swaminathasharma Ji's post (in fact that is the first post on the new thread, on which I clearly wrote in red about the split).

Since a large number of posts and authors involved typically in such moves, it is not practical to send each member a message on a manual basis. I would request Sri Praveen Ji, whether messages can be automatically when we move/split threads to each person affected.

Now, when we delete or edit a person's post (unless it is spam), I always leave a message about it's deletion/moderation in bold red.

Regards,
KRS





i understand that moderators sometimes would have to move quick.

it would be the right thing for them at that point

- to send a private message to the poster about a delete or move of a post
- even better, to clear all doubts, re fairness and openness, post a note re what happened.

it should not come as a shock to the member to see his post missing, without any pronounced rhyme or reason.

hope this request is ok. thank you.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Raju, Greetings!

... word கொடு is out of the way

Not so fast! See below.

when the கொள் comes as a suffix or sometimes as prefix to a main verb. That is,this word is a auxiliary verb which makes sense only when in such contexts it comes along with another word.Like in கவர்ந்து கொள்,கருதிக்கொள்,

Saying கவர்ந்து கொள் is alright, but மணந்துகொள் is not alright, is absolutely arbitrary.

Like கொள் comes as a suffix to a verb, கொடு also is routinely used as an auxiliary verb e.g. சொல்லிக்கொடு, பெண்ணைக்கொடு or as வழிச்சொல், e.g. கொடுத்தல் as in பெண்ணைக்கொடுத்தல். These are perfectly normal and routine usage.

Azhvar only said கொடுமின், கொள்மின். He did not say what to கொடு (give) and what to கொள் (take). There is nothing in the Azhvar pasuram to hang your statement, "Of all the meanings there is no marriage even remotely indicated."

The Sri Vaishnava commentators did not include பெண்ணைக்கொடு and பெண்ணைக்கொள் when interpreting கொடுமின், கொள்மின். But that is just their interpretation. However great they may be, they were still human beings. There is no reason to assert their every word is infallible.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Kodumin Kolmin does not mean relationship by marriage. Period. Sri Vaishnava movement has not died. It is very much alive and kicking. Please look into a tamil dictionary and find out what is the meaning of the words kodumin and kollmin. Of all the meanings there is no marriage even remotely indicated. In spite of all this if you want to believe that the meaning is marriage be happy believing it. All the best.

Sri Raju,

If you say Srivaishnava movement is still alive and kicking, can you kindly inform me as to the whereabouts, please? I have come across some 'name sake' Srivaishnavas. That's all. Since I do not know anything and everything, I am sincerely interested to know about this Srivaishnava movement as mentioned by you.

I noticed Sri Nara had actually refered the dictionary to get the meaning of 'koLLumin and kodumin'. The conversation between yourself and Sri Nara is enlightening. I did not seek a nigandu, sir. Honestly I do not know where to seek one on line; for that matter, I have not seen one in my life.

However, I rang my mother who still lives in the village in Tamil Nadu. I asked her for the meaning of 'koLLa & kodukka' (I admit, I did not ask the meaning for 'koLLumin & kodumin'). She said, as per the village custom, if those words were used close together in a single sentence, it means an encouragement for relationship through marriages.

Sir, I am more than happy to believe the meaning for Tamizh words from people who use them on a regular basis. When Azhwar used those terms in his poems, I am fairly confident that he did not expect the reader to look for meaning in the 'nigandu'. Azhwars tried to use words used in everyday life; that too this kind of important message would have been delivered with clear meanings leaving no room for confusions. Almost all of my life in India was spent in the company of people other than caste brahmins. I heard these terms somany times, I have no misunderstanding in the message conveyed by the azhwar.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Shri Raju, Greetings!



Not so fast! See below.



Saying கவர்ந்து கொள் is alright, but மணந்துகொள் is not alright, is absolutely arbitrary.

Like கொள் comes as a suffix to a verb, கொடு also is routinely used as an auxiliary verb e.g. சொல்லிக்கொடு, பெண்ணைக்கொடு or as வழிச்சொல், e.g. கொடுத்தல் as in பெண்ணைக்கொடுத்தல். These are perfectly normal and routine usage.

Azhvar only said கொடுமின், கொள்மின். He did not say what to கொடு (give) and what to கொள் (take). There is nothing in the Azhvar pasuram to hang your statement, "Of all the meanings there is no marriage even remotely indicated."

The Sri Vaishnava commentators did not include பெண்ணைக்கொடு and பெண்ணைக்கொள் when interpreting கொடுமின், கொள்மின். But that is just their interpretation. However great they may be, they were still human beings. There is no reason to assert their every word is infallible.

Cheers!

Dear Mr. Narayanan,
1.//Azhvar only said கொடுமின், கொள்மின். He did not say what to கொடு (give) and what to கொள் (take). There is nothing in the Azhvar pasuram to hang your statement, "Of all the meanings there is no marriage even remotely indicated."// these are your words.
I am saying exactly the same thing. Alwar said just கொள்மின் & கொடுமின் He did not mention what to give or what to take. So there is nothing in the Alwaar pasuram to hang your statement that Alwar said பெண்ணை கொடுங்கள் பெண்ணை எடுங்கள். Only because you brought in the பெண் கொடுத்தல் பெண் எடுத்தல், which is something extraneous to the context, I said it is not what Alwaar means here.
2.//The Sri Vaishnava commentators did not include பெண்ணைக்கொடு and பெண்ணைக்கொள் when interpreting கொடுமின், கொள்மின். But that is just their interpretation. However great they may be, they were still human beings. There is no reason to assert their every word is infallible.// These are again your words. I do not agree with you.I believe their words are infallible because they are not people like me with a lot of விபரீத ஞானம் . They were people who were well versed in all the Vedas and the upaya vedanta. They were also great teachers: "Sidhdham sat sampradhaye sthiradhiyam,srothriyam, anakam, brahma nishtam, satvasththam,satyavaacham,samaya niyadhayaa ,saathu vruthyaa samedham, damba , asooyaathi muktham , jitha vishayi ganam , dheerga bandhum , dhayaalum , skaalithye saasithaaram sva para hitha param desikam bhushnu reepseth" என்ற இலக்கணங்களுக்கு முழு எடுத்துக்காட்டாக திகழ்ந்தவர்கள். They were not ordinary human beings. You may disagree with me. But it is your right. I am not interested in joining issue with you on this. I believe that their interpretation is the correct one. No compromise on that. May be you too would have accepted that the Acharyas are great people infallible etc if they had said " மங்கை
எனும் சொல்லை இடையே ஆழ்வார் சேர்த்திட அறியாதவரல்ல. இத்துணை தமிழறிவு நிரம்பப்பெற்ற அவர் கூடுதலாக ஒரு நேரசையும் நிரையசையும் சேர்த்து பாசுரத்தில் தளையும் அடியும் தொடையும் சரியே அமையுமாறு பொருந்த விட்டிருந்தால் நாம் ஐயத்துக்கிடமின்றி அவரது திருவுள்ளத்தை அறிந்திருப்போம் என்றாலும் அப்படி சாதிக்காது விட்டது பற்றிகிலேசப்படாமல் அவர் இப்படிக்கூறிப்போந்ததிலேயே எல்லாம் அடங்கிற்று என்று கொள்ளலாம்". Unfortunately that was not to be. Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Pvraman said :-

"I have few question to clear my understanding. I want to know what is the social reform you mean and what a Brahmin must be prepared to (loose or) change, for the social reform and what is the end result we are talking about. Will the change include loosing Punool and rituals attached to it? Why I ask this question is, the great difference now between TN NB and B is Punool. If you remove punool, you are as good as NB, it is simple as that. so do you mean that?

I want to discuss further after getting reply."

Sri Pvraman Sir,
Greetings to you too. Sorry for the delay in replying to you.
Social reform is a double edged sword. One way of reform is to elevate everyone in the society to equal level with respect to economic conditions and education opportunities etc. In a lot of countries it is taking place. I know for sure it is happening in Australia. But Australia is not the only country adapting to this reform.
The other way is to bring down everyone to the same gullible level. It is also happening. I am not going to state the example for that; I do not like to get into a debate which can turn into an ugly argument and also which would go against the forum moderation rules. But I do have concrete, proven examples. Interested members are welcome to PM me; I would give my email address for further discussions (I don’t want such discussions even in the forum PM, please).
Before presenting my humble views about social reform, kindly allow me to address about ( ‘yanjobhaveedham’) poonool, please. Sri Pvraman sir, I humbly request you to read the message #23 in ‘who is brahmanan’ thread, please. The following explanation would be based on my opinions as expressed in that message. If that message is disagreeable to yourself, then the rest of the message may not be agreeable either.
Paramacharyal, in ‘dheivathin Kural’ mentioned that learning vedham and wearing poonool is the right of brahma, kshtriya and vaisya varnas. Achryal also gave some examples of few castes other than caste Brahmins who wear the poonool. Gayatri Japam is not exclusive to caste brahmans only; this japam is for all the people. So many times I listened with admiration when Sri. Yesudas recite Gayatri Japam; I am only one amoung the millions. Personally I do not even believe that people are segregated in three varnas.
So, Sri Pvraman Sir, with the social reform I am talking about, nobody would loose the poonool or Gayatri Japam; but, more and more people would start wearing poonool and engage in Gayatri Japam.
When a ‘koLLumin & kodumin’ situation becomes prevalent it will not wipe out sastra & sampradhyams. It may get diluted a little bit; however, after a period of time it will only get strengthened discarding blind sampradhyams. One society will form which will be very powerful. For a simple reason, everyone in that society will be equal and the knowledge sharing will know no bounds.
Even while that kind of reform is taking place, slowly caste discriminations, reservations and all the ills of our society will take the back burner and eventually will become the thing of the past.
Am I dreaming? I think not. Like I mentioned before, you may have rejected this post already; or you may be curious to know more about this ridiculous theory as presented here. I am more than willing to present my humble opinions to this honourable forum. Sri Pvraman Sir, I am looking forward to hear your feedbacks on this, please.

 

[suraju06]

Sri Raju,

If you say Srivaishnava movement is still alive and kicking, can you kindly inform me as to the whereabouts, please? I have come across some 'name sake' Srivaishnavas. That's all. Since I do not know anything and everything, I am sincerely interested to know about this Srivaishnava movement as mentioned by you.

I noticed Sri Nara had actually refered the dictionary to get the meaning of 'koLLumin and kodumin'. The conversation between yourself and Sri Nara is enlightening. I did not seek a nigandu, sir. Honestly I do not know where to seek one on line; for that matter, I have not seen one in my life.

However, I rang my mother who still lives in the village in Tamil Nadu. I asked her for the meaning of 'koLLa & kodukka' (I admit, I did not ask the meaning for 'koLLumin & kodumin'). She said, as per the village custom, if those words were used close together in a single sentence, it means an encouragement for relationship through marriages.

Sir, I am more than happy to believe the meaning for Tamizh words from people who use them on a regular basis. When Azhwar used those terms in his poems, I am fairly confident that he did not expect the reader to look for meaning in the 'nigandu'. Azhwars tried to use words used in everyday life; that too this kind of important message would have been delivered with clear meanings leaving no room for confusions. Almost all of my life in India was spent in the company of people other than caste brahmins. I heard these terms somany times, I have no misunderstanding in the message conveyed by the azhwar.

Dear Raghy,

1.//If you say Srivaishnava movement is still alive and kicking, can you kindly inform me as to the whereabouts, please?// Next time you visit Tamilnadu come to any of the vishnu temple. See for yourself the fervour and devotion of the people visiting these temples. You wont miss the message. It is clear and loud.
2.// I have come across some 'name sake' Srivaishnavas. That's all//. I do not know what to say to this. It is just that you are unfortunate. If you are serious about it you can still find such people.
3.//I am sincerely interested to know about this Srivaishnava movement as mentioned by you.// If you are sincere you can try to join some classes to know about Vaishnavism. There is a diploma in Vaishnavism conducted in the distance learning mode by the Madras University. You can join the course to know about Srivaishnavism.
4.//
I noticed Sri Nara had actually refered the dictionary to get the meaning of 'koLLumin and kodumin'. The conversation between yourself and Sri Nara is enlightening. I did not seek a nigandu, sir. Honestly I do not know where to seek one on line; for that matter, I have not seen one in my life.

However, I rang my mother who still lives in the village in Tamil Nadu. I asked her for the meaning of 'koLLa & kodukka' (I admit, I did not ask the meaning for 'koLLumin & kodumin'). She said, as per the village custom, if those words were used close together in a single sentence, it means an encouragement for relationship through marriages.

Sir, I am more than happy to believe the meaning for Tamizh words from people who use them on a regular basis. When Azhwar used those terms in his poems, I am fairly confident that he did not expect the reader to look for meaning in the 'nigandu'. Azhwars tried to use words used in everyday life; that too this kind of important message would have been delivered with clear meanings leaving no room for confusions. Almost all of my life in India was spent in the company of people other than caste brahmins. I heard these terms somany times, I have no misunderstanding in the message conveyed by the azhwar// searching and acquiring knowledge is a very arduous process. If you have done your tapas and found something, very good. Please dont stop. Keep searching further. You may on many occassions completely change your earlier understanding of the matter. This is what is brought out in the "sathapo thapyatha. sathapas thapthva" message of Thaithreeya upanishad. Please as a starting step get a good English translation of that upanishad and go through it. You will understand how the son went to his father and asked questions and how the father answered his questions each time. He never said to the son that what he understood was wrong. Now you have gor the index. Please go and search. Wish you fruitful searching. Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Raju,

Sir, I started looking at Taittiriya Upanishad. As I mentioned, I have only looked at it. I will try to study that. I humbly request you to clarify me of any doubts that I will come across.

I humbly decline to enrol in a Srivaishnava course as I am not too keen to become a Srivaishnava. Presently, I am a humanist. I think, I would like to stay that way.

I can understand that you are an educated scholar. I humbly request you with all sincerity to comment on my humble views posted in the thread 'who is brahmanan' thread, please (post #23). Thank you.

 

[suraju06]

Sri Raju,

Sir, I started looking at Taittiriya Upanishad. As I mentioned, I have only looked at it. I will try to study that. I humbly request you to clarify me of any doubts that I will come across.

I humbly decline to enrol in a Srivaishnava course as I am not too keen to become a Srivaishnava. Presently, I am a humanist. I think, I would like to stay that way.

I can understand that you are an educated scholar. I humbly request you with all sincerity to comment on my humble views posted in the thread 'who is brahmanan' thread, please (post #23). Thank you.

Dear Raghy.
//I humbly decline to enrol in a Srivaishnava course as I am not too keen to become a Srivaishnava. Presently, I am a humanist. I think, I would like to stay that way.//

I am at a loss of words to reply. In the first place you requested for information on the source to know about Vaishnavism. Only then I gave the University's name to you. I generally do not offer advice unless asked for. But more importantly your above paragraph has given me a rare insight into your mind. Who said vaishnavites are not humanists (whatever you mean by that term)? Who said vaishnavism is not "humanist" in its content? Without even attempting to know about something you have already passed a judgment on that. Moreover by learning about vaishnavism you do not become a vaishnava. It is something like saying by learning urdu you become a muslim. If you have changed your mind and has decided not to know anything about vaishnavam you need not join the classes. It is your decision and your take. All the best.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Raju:

Greetings!

I think we are settled on கொடுமின் கொள்மின். We will leave it with what each of us has said.

.....I believe their words are infallible because they are not people like me with a lot of விபரீத ஞானம்.

There is lot of evidence from the texts to show that there were some disagreements among Acharyas in how certain pasurams must be interpreted. So, not all Acharyas can be infallible. The accident of one's birth is going to determine which Acharya he/she is going to consider infallible.

However great and learned Acharyas may be, they are still a product of their environment, culture, and tradition. By elevating them to the status of infallibility we are doing a great disservice to them as well as ourselves and our future.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Hello again Shri Raju:

...
Who said vaishnavites are not humanists (whatever you mean by that term)? Who said vaishnavism is not "humanist" in its content?

Sorry to intrude in this conversation between you and Raghy.

There may be some misunderstanding here. Humanist is one:

• who does not believe in any religious dogma.
• who thinks ethical life is possible without any religion.
• who values science and rational thinking.
• who treats all humanity with love and dignity irrespective of caste or creed.
• who does not believe in a personal god who listens and answers to prayers.

I suppose you want to say Vaishnavas are humanist because they have love for everyone. But that is somewhat of a nuanced love, more theoretical than practical.

First, their love is only for those who have accepted Sriman Narayana as the lord. Swami Sri Desikan says Sri Vaishnavas must treat those who are indifferent about Sriman Narayana as dirt, and those who are opposed as poisonous snake and run away.

Secondly, even this narrow love is only theoretical. When it comes to actual practice, there is a motherload of discrimination, derision, and plain contempt for anyone NB, Vaishnava or not. I have witnessed much of this in person, thank you very much.

I have a request. Please do not take this the wrong way.

I notice a certain stridency from your part in characterizing Raghy. I request you to take the edge off a little bit.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr. Narayan,

Greetings.

//I think we are settled on கொடுமின் கொள்மின். We will leave it with what each of us has said.// -- I agree with you.

//However great and learned Acharyas may be, they are still a product of their environment, culture, and tradition. By elevating them to the status of infallibility we are doing a great disservice to them as well as ourselves and our future//
I beg to differ. A product of their environment, culture and tradition-maybe. But I believe they were not constrained by these. They were people who had a holistic view of all things. They could see every thing as gross or in totality. It is like looking at a desert from far and near. For one who is on the surface of the desert it is all ever-changing sand dunes, sand storms and dusty winds and an occasional oasis. Even reference points with which you fix your coordinates keep changing. But for a satellite’s camera there are a lot of groundwater streams crisscrossing deep below the surface.Acharyas, because they were evolved souls, were like the satellite cameras. When you read the lines in their commentary "இப்பசுக்களும் கிருஷ்ண ச்பர்சத்தாலே கீழ்நோக்கி பிராயம் புகுகை(இளமைவருகை)"did you not feel that Andal meant exactly this when she said "கற்றுக்கறவைக் கணங்கள் பல கறந்து (Thiruppavai 11) And when you further ruminate on that don’t you become spellbound by the obvious reference to "உதாம்ருதத்வச்யேசான: in the Vedas?
Nearer home, have you listened to the symphony no.5 in C minor by Beethoven? The cascading musical notes and the measured periods of pregnant silence – don’t you feel you are in a different world. And Beethoven said that the musical notes came to his mind as colours and he saw them. When he presented this symphony first time, he was already half-deaf! Not every one is able to see musical notes that way. But we all agree that Beethoven was a prodigy.

So Dear Mr. Narayan, I think we are trying to measure our acharyas with woefully inadequate scales.


//I have a request. Please do not take this the wrong way.

I notice a certain stridency from your part in characterizing Raghy. I request you to take the edge off a little bit.

Cheers!//

I am sorry. But I do not know where I have exhibited stridency. In intellectual discussions of this nature, mincing words becomes just cosmetic and peripheral. To some extent it becomes a distraction too. May be I am too focused. I have to watch. Thank you. No hard feelings.
Cheers.

 

[Ramacchandran]

There are occasions when a SriVaishanava will not enter in Sivan Temple. But To day we are seeing good volume of vashnavas in Siva Temple.

In Tirukkurugudi jeer has a Siva Shrine in Perumal Temple and he accepts that both Siva and Vishnu are one.
But in an old Inscription which I followed said there was a Sastha Shrine in the place of Linga which was constructed by the Tiruanathapuram varma in 1833.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Raju, Greetings!

.....So Dear Mr. Narayan, I think we are trying to measure our acharyas with woefully inadequate scales.

I think high respect and a decent dose of skepticism can go together.

Newton and Darwin were all time geniuses. Yet not everything they said were 100% correct, and it did not take another equally great genius to point out the errors. Further, these errors in one detail or another never diminished their greatness one bit.

Similarly, the Azhvars and commentators were great geniuses. But considering them infallible shuts down any new thinking. For all the talk about India being the spiritual center of the world, the reality is, all new and exciting philosophical discourse is found only in the west. In India the topics of hot debate never goes beyond the limits of old and great acharyas whose every word is infallible.

I have to watch. Thank you. No hard feelings.

You have shown your mettle with this gracious response. I appreciate it.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

//Newton and Darwin were all time geniuses. Yet not everything they said were 100% correct, and it did not take another equally great genius to point out the errors. Further, these errors in one detail or another never diminished their greatness one bit.//

This opens up a vast subject with a lot of scope for dialogue-scientific truth and vedic truth, permanent truth and relative truth,pure reason,practical reason and judgment etc., When an op. comes we can discuss it. Thank you. Cheers.

 

[Nara]

Hello everyone!

Reverence for Acharya is a common feature among all Hindus. Sri Vaishnavas are no exception. Bhagavat Ramanuja describes three type of apacharas in Saranagathi Gadyam, namely, (i) Bhagavat Apachara, (ii) BhAgavatha apachara, and (iii) Ashya apachara. The third one is supposed to mean apachara againsts one's Acharya. This apachara is so heinous, Ramanuja did not even spell it out.

This has led to an extreme case of unquestioningly accepting whatever an Acharya says. If Acharya says donkeys can fly, the shishyas say yes sir, they can -- because they fear Acharya apacharam.

But Ramanuja surely did not mean abdication of reason when he warned against ashya apachara. He himself refused to accept the explanations of his original acharya, Yadavapaskasha. Thanks to Ramanuja's unwillingness to be a sheep we now have Sri Bhashyam.

It is in this context that I think one should go beyond just asserting the inerrancy of Vedas, shashthras, and Acharyas. To pursue truth one must be unencumbered from having to pledge fealty to dogma or doctrine handed down by a lineage based on accident of birth.

Pursue truth whatever it may take you, without fear or aversion. Truth does not lie in the exaggerated past glory. Truth may very well be quite unpalatable and sometimes quite ugly, since truth is something unmanicured and unmade-up.

 

[Ramacchandran]

To my knowledge the present day Vashnavites are very broad minded people! That too in Chennai we are seeing large number of Thenkalai Iyengars in Sivan Temple and that too in Pradosham day I use to see a minimum 100 Vaishnavas in Villivakkam Sivan Temple.

The Tirukkurugudi math fought for its right to keep a Siva Lingam in its temple in 1890 and again in 2000 and won the case in favour of the temple! I really congratulate the persons who are all behind that and I wish to offer my thosand eight namaskarams to the person who recently faught for this.

This brings out human tendency and both Hari and Haran are the same.

When Jeers of maths join together we can ask where is the human kind.

I thank Mr.Nara who offered me a chance to cheer the Vaishnavas and wish all of us join hands in bringing ourselves up.