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எங்கே Sri Vaishnavam

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Dear Sri Raghy,

Sri. PVR Sir,

Untouchability existed way before Buddhism or Jainism. 'Yoga Vasishta' was told by Vasishta to Rama as written by Valmiki.
Vasistha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I read a story in Yoga Vasishta in which, untouchability was there. Untouchability pre-dates Rama's period.

Cheers!

Thanks for the link. I am enclosing a link by Dr Ambedkar about pre-untouchables

www.outlookindia.com | Broken Men, The Pre-Untouchables

I wrote the previous post, regarding the untouchability was based on caste. As it is out of 4 varnas, some of the reference materials indicate that it was mostly based on the odd work and tough characters. They can be from any varnas.

Regards
(1. still you are attaching the 'sir' tag.
2. You have not started about shudra in your thread "who is brahmana?" as you promised in the first few posts. :)
)
 
Whatever happenned to Sattada SV?

Hello folks,

In the following SV = Sri Vaishnava, SSV = Sattada Sri Vaishnava (சாத்தாத ஸ்ரீவைஷ்ணவா)

My thesis is Sri Vaishnavam was a bold experiment in social change started by Azhvars, nurtured by Bhagavat Ramanuja, gained strength through the Thenkalai lineage of Pillai Lokacharyar and Manavala Maamuni, and was in full bloom in the 16th century, but somehow and unfortunately, petered out. Today, this great experiment is completely forgotten or misunderstood, or misinterpreted. SSVs are part of the relic of this glorious past that still lives.

The two sub-sects called Vadakalai and Thenkalai within Iyengars are well known. There is also a third group called Sattada Sri Vaishnavas (SSV) aka Kovil Sri Vaishnavas. They belong to the Thenkalai sect, but they are also different from the Thenkalais in significant ways. Who they really are is shrouded in somewhat of a mystery. They don’t wear yajnopavitam. They don’t perform any Vedic rituals, but rely only on Dhivya Prabhandham for all their rituals. They very seldom if ever are temple archakas. Because of all of these, SSVs are generally thought to be NBs converted to Sri Vaishnavam by Bhagavat Ramanuja.

From guru parapara hagiography, we can infer that Bhagavat Ramanuja gave SSVs important roles in temple activities in SV temples all over Tamilnadu, Karnataka, and Andhra. (Aside: He even included Dalits of his time. He is credited as the one who coined the term “Thirukkulathor” a direct translation of which in Hindi is Harijan.)

Some of the responsibilities Bhagavagt Ramanuja assigned to SSVs continue to this day. Even today, in Sri Rangam, the preeminent temple for Sri Vaishnavas, SSVs perform a wide range of tasks starting from opening the curtain in the morning to closing the curtain at night and a lot in between. Their responsibilities range from fairly low status ones, such as making announcements (kattiyam), to even somewhat high status ones like providing flowers and garlands, and the safe-keeping of the temple keys (HRCE also has one set of keys). It seems SSVs are also known to officiate as aradhakas in some lesser known temples, but not in any of the major temples.

The article by Robert Lester, “The Sāttāda Śrīvaiṣṇavas”, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 114, No. 1 (Jan. - Mar., 1994), pp. 39-53, presents an outline of the history of SSVs and gives copious references culled out of Temple Chronicles (கோவில் ஒழுகு) and inscriptions. From this article we get a peek into the kind of Sri Vaishnavam practiced a few centuries ago and how much SVs have gone backwards between then and now.

Lester presents evidence that SSVs in Srirangam recited Dhivya Prabhandham alongside brahmin SVs in the gosthi up until 1942. He does not give any details of the reasons why it stopped. Lester further goes on to say that in some temples SSVs used to get theertha prasadam and other prasadams ahead of Brahmins.

So, what happened? How come today the SSVs are not allowed into the elite Brahmin circles? SSVs are not allowed into the praghandha goshti. They no longer enjoy the privileges they had a right to in an earlier era in not so very distant past. While they still maintain a somewhat of a privileged status compared to other NB SVs, there is a clear line of separation between the Brahmin SVs and SSVs.

These are interesting questions for which Lester only gives speculative answers. But what is really amazing is Lester’s thesis that SSVs were not entirely NB converts, but included Bs as well. In support, he cites a 1536 inscription of one SSV called Azagiya Manavala ayyan of Kausika gotra, Apastamba suitra and Yajus shakha and a disciple of Azagiya Manavala Jiyar (Sriman Manavala Mamuni) -- clearly an SSV of brahmin origin. Another record at Srirangam, dated 1665, references an SSV of Srivatsa gotra, once again a clear indication of Brahmin affiliation. For every exalted SSV of Brahmin origin getting recorded through inscription or in chronicles, there must be hundreds, if not thousands of SSVs of B origin unmentioned.

These SSV of brahmin origin removed all their external signs that mark them as Brahmins, like poonal, kaccham, etc. The only sign they sported was the Urdhva Pundaram (namam), common to all, that marked them just as SVs.

To properly understand what this means, we need to look at the expansive social vision of Azhvars that I have already discussed in detail. There were brahmins who heard Periyazhvar's call,
தொண்டக்குலத்திலுள்ளீர் வந்தடி தொழுது ஆயிரம் நாமம் சொல்லி
பண்டைக் குலத்தைத் தவிர்ந்து, பல்லாண்டு பல்லாயிரத்தாண்டு என்மினே!
and did leave their exalted Brahmin kulam and became part of SSVs.

Swami Periyavacchan Pillai's directive to caste brahmins to fall at the feet of even the lowliest of lowly SV did not fall into deaf ears. It was not a daydream. These were vadama smarthas who removed their yajyaopavetham and wore veshti without kaccham and dedicated their lives to temple activities and became SSV along with other NBs as equals or even as servants.

Nammazhvar's songs like:
குலம் தாங்கு சாதிகள் நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்து எத்தனை
நலந்தான் இலாத சண்டாள சண்டாளர்கள் ஆகிலும்
வலம் தாங்கு சக்கரத்து அண்ணல் மணிவண்ண்ற்கு ஆள் என்று உள்
கலந்தார் அடியார் தம் அடியார், எம்அடிகளே
(3.7.9)
"A servant of a devoted bhaktha of Manivannan, even if he is a candala among candalas, his servant's servant is my master"
inspired them enough to make at least a start to make this vision a reality.

This is not all, there is strong evidence from the past that gives us a glimpse of at least a degree of gender equity that no longer exists today.

K.V. Raman in his book titled “Sri Varadarajaswami Temple, Kanchi: A Study of Its History, Art and Architecture” 1975, published by Shakti Malik Abhinav Publications E37 Hauz Khas, New Delhi 110 016, cites temple records from the 13th century about a special endowment by the Telugu-Chda chieftain Gandagopala for the maintenance of the females goshti (பெருமாள் முன் பாடும் பெண்டுகள் நிமித்தது) p. 135.

K.V. Raman also cites (in the same pahe 135) another record datable to 1535 C.E. that specifies a certain share in the holy food for the ladies by right, who took part in the group-singing in front of the deity (திருவோலக்கம் சேவித்த பெண்கள்).

The term "thiruvolakkam" is very important, it refers to formal gathering of SVs. So, from this record dating back to 1535, we see that at Kanchi Perarulan temple, there were formal goshti made up of women and they enjoyed certain rights and privileges accorded to them by decree.

Today, women must be content with just spectators. Let alone, Kacnhipuram, even in Srivilliputhur in Sri Andal sannidhi, women are not even allowed inside the room in front of the Sannithi where the men-only Goshti gather for the morning seva kalam and Satrumurai. The women will have to stand outside the main sannidhi until the men-only goshti complete saRRumuRai.

The brahmin-men SVs closely guard the privileges from their hoary past, by moving the courts all the way to the supreme court if necessary, but how much of the devotion or the revolutionary spirit of our forefathers is still present, the less said the better. Even in Andal sannidhi the women are not equal to men, what an irony.

What was obviously true at least up until 16th century slowly eroded and finally died out completely by 1942 when the SSVs were excluded from Goshti by court order, why?

By the 16th century the Vijayanagar empire, the primary benefactor of Sri Vaishnavas, was in decline. The deep south of Tamilnadu was under Nayakas control and the middle country under the Nizams of Arcot. Even under these tumultuous times, SSVs were prominent and growing, and women seem to have enjoyed independent status and rights in temples.

Lester says SSVs were part of the goshti in Sri Rangam up until 1942, just 5 years short of the end of British rule. So, it is not unreasonable to deduce that the progressive leanings of SVs continued without any interference from the oft cited Muslim and British intrigue.

Now, SSVs have become a caste like other castes, but continue to enjoy privileged status below brahmins, but above NB SVs. What started as a social reform movement got co-opted and folded into the caste system. Today all that remains in SV is ostentatious recitation of Dhivya Prabhandham, starting with நாயிந்தே நாயிந்தே, with none of the ஈரம் of Azhvar verses touching their humanity, like water rolling off the proverbial lotus leaf.

Andal's நானேதான் ஆயிடுக gets mistaken by some to be நானேதான் நாயிடுக and they wonder whether Naidus were present even in Andal's time. How much have we fallen?

Cheers!
 
During 18th to 20th century AD period, TB community has been moving closer to sanskrit and gradually created an impression that knowledge of sanskrit is some thing great.

Abhirami Bhattar was the last known TB poet after Azhwars, Nayanmars and Arunagirinathar who composed bakthi literature in Tamil in the late 18th century. King Sarafoji of Tanjore has ruled Tanjore at that time. May be during Maratha rule in Tamilnadu, the importance of sanskrit has gained over Tamil since the rulers at that time were more comfortable with Sanskrit than Tamil.

News Today

During 19th Century, Thiagayya, Muthusami Dikshidar, Shyama Sastry and Gopalakrishna Bharathi lived and composed songs .

Among the above only Gopalakrishna Bharathi composed songs in Tamil.

Gopalakrishna Bharathi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both Thiagayya and Gopalakrishna Bharathi were contemporaries. Thiagayya mostly composed songs in Telugu on Lord Rama except few on Lord Shiva at Kovur near Chennai.

Gopalakrishna Bharathi seems to be a saivaite and was against propagation Telugu and Sanskrit by the other three. With vengeance he composed `Nandarar Charithram' highlighting a life story of a dalith devotee of Lord Shiva in Tamil.

Even today most of the singers of carnatic music sing in Telugu and Sanskrit and avoid Tamil probably except Nithyasree Mahadevan (Grand Daughter of late D K Pattammal). Since most of the singers belonged to TB community, the division between TB community and others have further widened.

When `Tamil Thatha' U.V.Swaminatha Iyer learnt Tamil from Mahavidwan Meenakshi Sundaram Pillai, there was heavy opposition from TB community.

Even today in some of the Murugan temples, Thiruppugazh is recited by all communities including TBs which unites people to a great extent. Our own member Sri G Soundararajan sings Thiruppugazh along with other community members in one voice which personally I have witnessed.

Brahmins patronising Sanskrit and other languages and dumping Tamil is one of the root cause of the division which was exploited by Justice party and its successors.

All the best
 
Sir,

I would like to share some other info regarding ramanujar.. when the chola king ordered execution of ramanujar, he escaped there and went to mysore.. one of a kongu vellala cheif in the rasipuram belt (near salem) provided all sorts of help and support and safely took ramanujar to mysore.. In that process, ramanujar had stayed in that area for quite some time, and the people there adopted saiva customs..

How i can relate to my own life? I trace my roots to the same Rasipuram belt, and our kula temple is there.. and we have purattasi virathams.. and many of older people from that area have the name "Perumal gounder"..

At the same time, my mother's family observes thaipoosa viratham (they dont observer purattasi viratham)..

Today, these customs had withered away due to urban life style.. but it will be helpful to understand the past to some extent..

The shaiva and vaishnava religious rivalry mostly existed in certain pockets and empire capitals.. at that time indian polity was NOT centralised.. there were many local chiefs, who had considerable autonomy..

But one thing we have to note.. Even though bhakthi movement insisted on vegetarianism, they did not enforce this on other communities.. For example, the animal sacrifice is a routine in our kula temple, which is continuing till today.. what ramanujar did was to streamline and regulate this custom instead of defaming and negating this. As such, in the past, most of our people will keep utensils used for cooking meat outside the house.. It should never be brought in at any point of time..

Similarly after taking meat, we have to take a bathe and enter the house.. (NOT now adays.. only on those days)..

We have to study about the customs of various caste to understand the situation..
 
But one thing we have to note.. Even though bhakthi movement insisted on vegetarianism, they did not enforce this on other communities.. For example, the animal sacrifice is a routine in our kula temple, which is continuing till today.. what ramanujar did was to streamline and regulate this custom instead of defaming and negating this. As such, in the past, most of our people will keep utensils used for cooking meat outside the house.. It should never be brought in at any point of time..

Similarly after taking meat, we have to take a bathe and enter the house.. (NOT now adays.. only on those days)..

We have to study about the customs of various caste to understand the situation..

Me too have heard this. Animal sacrifice was part of ritualistic customs on select days (which wud be abt once or twice in about 6 months). And it was always in Amman Koils.

I heard that those who had panchasamskara done were pure vegetarian. But for the others, it was not complusary to be vegetarian.

The utensils and the cooking area was always seperate (always done outside the house). Those who consumed non-veg had to bathe and sleep in an other portion of the house for that day. Then bathe the next day and enter the main dwelling area.

After people moved into urban areas, observing all this became a hassle. So sections of folks preferred to become either full vegetarians or full non-vegetarians.

However, in the urban settings, i hear there were some creeds who were non-vegetarian even after having panchasamskara done. These were like the Savundis who performed the death rites (possibly they were considered an inferior class of priests with acharyas from their own lot).

Regards.
 
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