எங்கே Sri Vaishnavam

[suraju06]

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Hello everyone! ……………………………………………….

Dear Mr. Narayan,
I thought we have closed the discussion. But you have opened a new topic. You have addressed it to everyone and it includes me. So I thought I should give here the views that exist as counter points to your views so that the readers get the complete picture.

//This has led to an extreme case of unquestioningly accepting whatever an Acharya says. If Acharya says donkeys can fly, the shishyas say yes sir, they can -- because they fear Acharya apacharam.//

This does not appear to be borne out by facts. In fact one of the learned and respected acharyas himself has questioned his acharya when he interpreted a certain slokas in a certain way.(Ramanuja and Yadavaprakasa as quoted by you). This being the case there is no instance of sishyas accepting any utter nonsense said by their acharya. I think this is stretching the argument a little too far.
Acharyapacharam-yes sishyas dread it. But leaving an acharya- no problem as Sri Ramanuja did. Sishyas do not abdicate their inherent right to search for a right acharya…………….. Here the last two words mean the sishya should choose such an acharya.The word choose is very important.

//It is in this context that I think one should go beyond just asserting the inerrancy of Vedas, shashthras, and Acharyas. To pursue truth one must be unencumbered from having to pledge fealty to dogma or doctrine handed down by a lineage based on accident of birth//

Not every one born in a given lineage has been an acharya. If some one was an acharya it was because of the learning and knowledge acquired and not just because of an accident of birth. If you want to question every thing in a freewheeling spirit using every answer to formulate a new question where will you end up? And this raises the important question what do you want? The knowledge imparted to you by the Acharya is not an encumbrance or a drag on you. How you use it in your search for truth is just your take. Ramanuja certainly used the knowledge he gained from his teacher Yadavaprakasa in his exploration of truth. You are aware that the same Yadavaprakasa turned Ramanuja’s sishya later to learn Visishtadvaita from him. In your search for truth the acharya helps you to perceive the various options (I would prefer to use the Sanskrit word Drishtikon which is more picturesque and apt) so that you can explore.

There is another angle to your statement. Any knowledge other than the knowledge about the ultimate truth is a burden. This burden we all carry to our graves. The more knowledge you chase and acquire the more is the burden. If you have used this concept to make the above statement, because the burden of knowledge that you have acquired from your acharya refuses to leave you in piece then there are other remedies to that problem.

For going beyond the inerrancy of Vedas you are required to propose a grand unifying infallible final theory that explains everything. Only then can the Vedas be proved fallible (or infallible). Without an alternative there is no use demolishing an existing beauty. Right from Gautama Buddha and Mahavira many great teachers/saints tried for an alternative and miserably failed. Moreover Vedas give you adequate freedom of thought. It prods you to think for yourself and realize the truth. It says the truth has only to be realized. It cannot be told or taught or given. So what is your dispute?


//Pursue truth whatever it may take you, without fear or aversion. Truth does not lie in the exaggerated past glory. Truth may very well be quite unpalatable and sometimes quite ugly, since truth is something unmanicured and unmade-up.//

Pursue truth fearlessly and without aversion. I agree as it is a statement of the obvious. Then “exaggerated past glory” - knowledge cannot be exaggerated or glorified. It just exists and we acquire it for whatever it is worth. Veda is knowledge.
I think truth is always beautiful and has a charm of its own which is disarming. It is only the a priori prejudices and predispositions that make it look ugly or unpalatable.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

In my second paragraph I missed to include the last two words of a sloka which I had quoted earlier. They are "தேசிகம் புஷ்ணுரீப்செத்" which means choose the teacher.

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Raju, Greetings!

I thought we have closed the discussion. But you have opened a new topic. You have addressed it to everyone and it includes me.

Oh no, there is no cloture here -- there is always lots and lots of talk, full of sound and fury, amounting to nothing , amounting to nothing just from my side of course


What you are saying is alright, but it is not broad enough. You seem to be saying that you have a very fine box, the box is quite satisfying, many box-scholars have found great things to say about this box, and a couple of people who wanted to tear this box down failed to do so, and therefore, one must stay inside this box and ask any question you want. As long as you stay within the box and never question the greatness of the box and have absolute faith in the box, and accept that nothing outside this box has any validity, you are allowed great freedom to question -- much like freedom of press in communist China.

What I am saying is, forget the box; think outside the box, if you will.

This box is just another artifact handed down. The box is full of inane things. Anything good you may find in the box can still be had even after getting out of the box. There are great deal of beautiful things outside the box. It may be scary at first, but once you have the taste of the outside, free of stifling shackles you don't even notice you have, you won't go back into that box again.

Any knowledge other than the knowledge about the ultimate truth is a burden. This burden we all carry to our graves.

I don't know whether this is true of all religions or not, but it is true of the Abrahamic religions. God is supposed to have forbidden Adam and Eve from eating the fruits of the tree of knowledge.

Sri Vaishnava tradition also puts down knowledge. There is a story described in Idu Vyakyanam for Thiruvaymozi. It seems Parasara Bhattar, the Acharya that came after Ramanuja and Embar, showed enormous respect for an old "dimwit" compared to a Vedic pandit, when they came on Uncha Vruththi rounds.

When asked why by his pupils, he sent them to each of the two with the question, "Who is parabrahmam?". It seems the panditha gave a detailed explanation citing various Vedic shlokas and concluded that the question cannot be answered definitively.

Whereas, the old "dimwit" got mad and declared he was sorry he was accepting the amudhuppadi (rice) from a man who does not even know Ranganatha is the parabrahmam.

The moral is, I suppose, as you say, "Any knowledge other than the knowledge about the ultimate truth is a burden."

Why should pursuit of knowledge be put down I really don't understand.

Eulogize bhakthi if you must, but why put down knowledge? Why should this be presented as a zero-sum choice? Is there a fear knowledge threatens the control over the masses?

For going beyond the inerrancy of Vedas you are required to propose a grand unifying infallible final theory that explains everything.

Why? This is not logical. Why is present limit in human understanding the reason why Vedas must be accepted as inerrant? BTW, All religions claim their religious text is inerrant.

Gauthama Budda and Mahavira did succeed in putting a stop to the kind of stuff that is still going on Nepal (h/t Suryakasyapa).

Jains and Buddas were eliminated by the sword. Even Thirumangai Azhvar is supposed to have stolen a golden Budda vigraha from Nagappattinam and used it to build new wall surrounding Sri Rangam temple. When you pursue truth, which I think one must, these are the kinds of disconcerting truths that you will encounter. Don't be afraid. Don't whitewash it with propaganda. Pursue truth wherever it may take you.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri Nara said :-

“The third one is supposed to mean apachara againsts one's Acharya. This apachara is so heinous, Ramanuja did not even spell it out.

This has led to an extreme case of unquestioningly accepting whatever an Acharya says. If Acharya says donkeys can fly, the shishyas say yes sir, they can -- because they fear Acharya apacharam.”

Sri Nara,
I was laughing when I read this. You are 200% right. Readers may be picturing an acharya in the olden days with few sishyas listening to him…
I was picturing caste Brahmin couples on the day of their marriage and I was laughing. Quite possibly the message I am about to write would be true in the case of most of the members who are married and are going to marry in the future. (Sri Nara, it may be true in your own case too!)
‘Showing Arundhathi’ to the bride and the groom is one of the customs to be performed by the Vadhyar/Sasthrigal during the ceremony. During our marriage, the vadhiyar took us out to show ‘Arundhathi’ at 1130 AM, on a hot sunny day! That was the height of hypocrisy in my opinion. I took the vadhyar back inside and requested him to really show us Arundhathi, in the presence of everyone; everyone agreed that vadhiyar had an obligation to fulfil. In turned out, he had no idea about the location of Arundhathi at all!
I humbly ask the honourable forum members, who were shown ‘arundhathi’ during their marriage ceremony; did you actually see that star?
“If Acharya says donkeys can fly, the shishyas say yes sir, they can…”

 

[Raghy]

Sri Nara said :-

"What I am saying is, forget the box; think outside the box, if you will."

Sri Nara,

It seems you are suffering from optimism today!ray2:

 

[pvraman]

Very sorry for the delay

Sri Pvraman said :-
I am looking forward to hear your feedbacks on this, please.

Dear Sri Raghi Sir,

I am extremely sorry for the delay in replying. I had some business traveling to make. Today I could visit this forum and searched to see where i left, and immediately after reading your post i write this.
-----------
I some how, could not consciously say that it could be a solution to make the surface even. Since i do not want to post something which is not relevant to this thread, i wud like to continue in Who is brahmanan thread.

Sorry for the delay..

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri Raghi Sir,

I am extremely sorry for the delay in replying. I had some business traveling to make. Today I could visit this forum and searched to see where i left, and immediately after reading your post i write this.
-----------
I some how, could not consciously say that it could be a solution to make the surface even. Since i do not want to post something which is not relevant to this thread, i wud like to continue in Who is brahmanan thread.

Sorry for the delay..

Sri Pvraman sir,

There is no need to apologise for the delay. I assumed that you must have been out of station. I did not suggest a solution; I just presented my view only. When more views are presented, something constructive may come out. I did not voice my views with an aim of putting down a community. I may call myself as a humanist or whatever; but the fact remains that in my S.S.L.C book, it is clearly written that my caste is 'Brahmin'. I may not be affected by that now, but while critisising our community, I am all for helping everyone in any way I possibly can.

Sir, I have only respect for you and many many members in this forum. Kindly avoid apologising to me in the future. I joined this forum to find friends.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Raghi,

I humbly ask the honourable forum members, who were shown ‘arundhathi’ during their marriage ceremony; did you actually see that star?

I object the "Arundhathi" being singled out. The Entire day, I could not understand anything from the vathyars mantras. My wrong pronunciations were ironed out by the two acharyas. (i was just murmuring) I sheepishly followed, My father never allowed to criticize our vathyars (even in home- privately), secondly, i could not understand a word of the mantras, thirdly, I had some better interest to concentrate, ...............................

:violin::violin::violin:

---------------------------------------------
If there was a fault, it was mine, i never had shown interest in knowing about the rituals and meaning of mantras before agreeing to sit in the மணமேடை.

But, I wonder, is this same as the relationship of "Guru - Sishya".
I thought we treat the present day vathyars as a "ISI Brahmin" stamp.

Cheers

 

[Raghy]

Sri PvRaman Sir,

I could not help but, burst out laughing, when I read your post. I could visualise your predicament; that caused me to laugh more.

at the end of Gurukula vasam, usually the Guru finds a bride for his shishyan and take the leading part in performing the marriage. So, the vadhiyar/sashtri are considered guru. whenever we follow the vadhiyar's lead, he stays as the guru, irrespective of the occassion including the marriage ceremony. That's where the (temporary) guru/ shishya relationship occurs.

Until the 'homam' was lit, I was taking it easy too. I did not pay much attention. As the 'homam' was lit, the vadhiyar asked me to pay attention and asked me to repeat the mantras, pouring ghee in the homam. I refused to repeat. I said I did not undrstand what I was promising with 'agni shatshi'. My wife's uncle was a Sanskrit Sironmani who accepted my objection and informed the vadhiyar that he had an obligation to explain the mantras. Although the vadhiyar was not too happy, he had no option, but to comply.

I happily grilled the vadhiyar. Naturally, either he had no idea why he was asking me to do certain things or he did not want to say it. But, my wife's uncle did not budge one inch. He made sure the vadhiyar performed everything in sequence and also made sure I was explained.

Arundhathi star - In the evenings, inthe north-easterly direction, (for Chennai) (in the early mornings, it can be seen in the north westerly dirction, only the tail would have swung) we can see the saptha rishi mandalam. Arundhathi star can be seen (it is a very small dim star. It must be really far far away), always very close to the 6th star in the mandalam. It can be seen only by a person with a normal eye sight. Failure to see the star means, that person needs eye-repair. That was the reason for 'showing' Arundhathi.

Ammi midhithal - I asked uncle why it has to be Ammi. He said, it was the only handy flat surface at hand! No, he was joking. Ammi is the most important piece of equipment that accompanies the bride in starting a new home (the bride was not expected to go to the in-laws place. The newly married were expected to start a life together on their own). By placing her feet on the Ammi, she ascertains her importance in the homestead (theoritically). In other words, she is the boss in home!

Paaligai - When the Paaligai mantram came along, I was told that I should till the land and start a crop using the paaligai (they are actually seedlings). I said I was ready. I got a reply- 'summa alayadhedaa! Nee readynnu engalukku theriyum. Nee paatle kalaapai eduthundu kilambaadhe! Edhu oru saangiyam thaan!'. Oh, well, there went the farming opportunity!

Then the most important was 'Sapthapathy'. I don't remember the seven steps. I am sure, our learned members would provide the meaning for 'Sapthapathy'.

(If I sound smart by getting the meaning, hear this- even last month my wife was demanding something of me and asked me to fulfil my promise; I was surprised and said I did not make such a promise in the recent days. She said, 'of course you did! I also listened to the meaning of the promises you made as agni as shatshi! You better fulfil them!'. So, I guess, that is the downside of learning the meanings!)

 

[Nara]

More Sri Vaishnavam stuff

I want to talk about Bhagavat Ramanuja a little bit, if I may. As a boy growing up, the only thing I knew about Ramanuja was that he went up the Thirukkoshtiyur temple gopuram and converted everyone to brahmins. Now I know better. But it amazes me to no end that a lot of people who ought to know better still think this was the case.

I am not talking about the converting part, that would be absurd. I am talking about he going up the gopuram part. That most likely never happened and there is absolutely no evidence that he did.

There are three esoteric manthras for Sri vaishnavas. They are (i) Thiruvashtaksharam, (ii) Dvayam, and (iii) BG Charama Shlokam. Of these, the first two are Vedic manthras and therefore rahasyas. The third manthra is not a rahasya in the strict sense, but the meaning is a rahasya. All three are about Saranagathi as mOkshOpAya.

Upadesham for these three manthras are done at the time of Samasryanam aka Panca Samskaram. For Bhagavat Ramanuja, Panca samskaram was performed by Swami Periya Nambi and therefore, the initiation of the three rahasya manthras for Ramanuja must have been through him, within the precincts of Mathurandhakam temple, far far away from Thirukkoshtiyur.

Then, is the gopuram story just a myth? Well, like any good myth there is usually a small grain of truth. But in this instance, there is a sack full of grain. The hagiography does include an instance of Ramanuja visiting Thirukkoshtiyur to get upadesham from one of the pupils of Swami Alavandhar. This text, called ஆறாயிரப்படி குரு பரம்பர ப்ரபாவம் by பின்பழகிய பெருமாள் ஜீயர், written probably within about 100 years of Ramanuja's life, describes this instance in some detail.

The gist of this is, Thirukkoshtiyur Nambi explained the meaning of Thiruvashtaksharam to Ramanuja upon the condition that he must not explain the rahasya meaning to anyone else.

The next day, (not immediately after as popular story holds) Ramanuja went to the Nrisimha sannidhi of the temple (not on top of the gopuram) and explained the rahasya meaning (not the manthram itself) to the gathered Sri Vaishnava kalakshepa goshti (not any tom dick and harry), that is all.

The text does not say that he went up to the top of the gopuram and shouted out the manthram itself.

When Nambi came to know of this he sent for Ramanuja. When Ramanuja came to him he asked, and now I shall give the actual text,

ஒருவர்க்கும் சொல்லவேண்டாம் என்று நியமித்தன்றோ சொன்னோம்; அத்தை மறுத்துச் சொன்ன உமக்கு பலம் எது?

(I taught you the meaning on the condition you will not teach it to anyone else. What is the benefit for you to go against my command.)​

Ramanuja replied:

ஆசார்ய நியமனத்தை மறுத்த எனக்கு நரகமே பலம் ...
அடியேன் ஒருவனே அன்றோ நரகம் புகுவது? தேவரீர் திருவடிகளை முன்னிட்டுக் கொண்டு சொல்லுகையாலே, இவ்வாத்மகோடிகள் எல்லாம் தேவரீர் திருவடி ஸம்பந்தத்தாலே உஜ்ஜீவிப்பார்கள் என்று சொன்னேன்..."

(I will surely go to hell as I disobeyed my acharya's command. But I am the only one headed to hell, but with what I have taught all these other jeevas now have connection to your holy feet and because of that they all will be liberated)​

This is a beautiful story as it is, but in due course of time all sorts of ornaments have been added to this tree. Now, at the top of the Thirukkoshtiyur temple gopuram there are two Ramanuja figurines facing the street in commemoration of an incidence for which there is no evidence. It seems NB Sri Vasihnavas from Andhra visiting the temple go up to the top and inconsolably weep and hug the figurine.

Whatever the truth may be, Ramanuja was a revolutionary of his time. It seems when Ramanuja was forced to leave Sri Rangam and seek refuge in Thiru Narayana puram, enroute he was lovingly cared for by NB sishyas. During his long sojourn in Melkottai he paved way to let Dalits enter the temple three days in a year. This may seem paltry now, but at that time this may have been utter blasphemy for the so called சாதி அந்தணர்!!

During his grahastha time he wanted to partake the leftover of NB Thirukkachchi Nambi. At that time Ramanuja was not yet fully Sri Vaishnava and therefore not sure whether he was familiar with Thondaradippodi Azhvar's போனகம் செய்த சேடம் (left over food). However, that did not happen due to his wife's antipathy.

Ramanuja's compassion must have been legendary. He was celebrated by 108 verses called இராமானுச நூற்றந்தாதி. In it Ramanuja is feted variously as, சீர் முகில் இராமாநுசன், காரேய் கருணை இராமாநுசா, கற்றவர் காமுறு சீலன், அன்பன் அனகன், நல்லார் பரவும் இராமாநுசன், ...

Ramanuja's expansive compassion slowly lost steam by the asphyxiating fidelity to sashthras that call for strict separation based on varnas. Swami Sri Desikan, the one considered the most preeminent of achrays after Ramanuja by the Vadakalais, cautioned when talking about NB bhavathas, a temple cow may enjoy lot of respect, but a cow is a cow nevertheless

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr. Narayan,
If , as you say, there is only a lot of fury and sound and no meaning, I would have stopped coming here long back. I still think it is a dialogue and that is the reason I am again here.

//What you are saying is alright, but it is not broad enough. You seem to be saying that you have a very fine box, the box is quite satisfying, many box-scholars have found great things to say about this box, and a couple of people who wanted to tear this box down failed to do so, and therefore, one must stay inside this box and ask any question you want. As long as you stay within the box and never question the greatness of the box and have absolute faith in the box, and accept that nothing outside this box has any validity, you are allowed great freedom to question -- much like freedom of press in communist China
What I am saying is, forget the box; think outside the box, if you will.
This box is just another artifact handed down. The box is full of inane things. Anything good you may find in the box can still be had even after getting out of the box. There is great deal of beautiful things outside the box. It may be scary at first, but once you have the taste of the outside, free of stifling shackles you don't even notice you have, you won't go back into that box again.//
Who is inside the box and who is outside the box is a matter of individual opinion not withstanding Heisenberg’s principle…….. We are all prisoners of our prejudices and preconceived notions about men and matters. No wonder you have jumped to conclusions about me. “Out of box thinking” is a phrase used in the wrong place often to score just debating points. People put every thing about which they have prejudices into a box and make a clarion call to the world to come out of that box. They do not realize that the vast world outside them is not stupid and that the world may not think the same way they think because the world is not having the same prejudices as these claustrophobic few. And to boot, they would condescendingly advise the world to break itself free from the so called shackles (which are visible only to these few) to come into a wonderful and beautiful new world (read anarchy). Of course a few like minded friends are always standing by to gleefully applaud and sing Jay Ho! The people in general know it only too well that such promise is given not to be kept. I think this much is enough about your prescription of out of box thinking. My dear friend, What you are saying is not forget the box and think outside the box. What you say is” demolish everything visible. We will see whether we can build something new later because right now I have nothing else to offer”



Any knowledge other than the knowledge about the ultimate truth is a burden. This burden we all carry to our graves.

I don't know whether this is true of all religions or not, but it is true of the Abrahamic religions. God is supposed to have forbidden Adam and Eve from eating the fruits of the tree of knowledge.



Why pursuit of knowledge should be put down I really don't understand.

Eulogize bhakthi if you must, but why put down knowledge? Why should this be presented as a zero-sum choice? Is there a fear knowledge threatens the control over the masses?

You have not understood my point. I asked this question only to find out whether this is the reason for your overpowering desire to question everything and demolish every thing. I did not say I believe in it. Besides this I find you again quoting out of context as given below:
//Sri Vaishnavite tradition also puts down knowledge. There is a story described in Idu Vyakyanam for Thiruvaymozi. It seems Parasara Bhattar, the Acharya that came after Ramanuja and Embar, showed enormous respect for an old "dimwit" compared to a Vedic pandit, when they came on Uncha Vruththi rounds.

When asked why by his pupils, he sent them to each of the two with the question, "Who is parabrahmam?". It seems the panditha gave a detailed explanation citing various Vedic shlokas and concluded that the question cannot be answered definitively.

Whereas, the old "dimwit" got mad and declared he was sorry he was accepting the amudhuppadi (rice) from a man who does not even know Ranganatha is the parabrahmam.//
Where is the message in this story that knowledge is to be put down. This passage taken from the Aithihyam collection clearly brings out that vanity and deceit should be put down firmly. This is exactly the meaning of the story in which Adi Shankara is asked by a “panchaman” to explain which is un-touchable the Atma of the Panchaman or the Body of the Panchaman. And this is the same subject which is brought out when another saint asked some one to put his leg facing the direction in which God does not exist. I am coming across in you for the first time some one that looks at these stories from a peculiar angle to question why knowledge is put down. Dear friend, you are seeing ghosts where even a shadow does not exist.

Jains and Buddhas were eliminated by the sword. Even Thirumangai Azhvar is supposed to have stolen a golden Budda vigraha from Nagappattinam and used it to build new wall surrounding Sri Rangam temple. When you pursue truth, which I think one must, these are the kinds of disconcerting truths that you will encounter. Don't be afraid. Don't whitewash it with propaganda. Pursue truth wherever it may take you.

Not so quickly. Jains and Budhdhists were not angels either. We are quite familiar with the …………………………………….. of Nayanmaars. Many of the Pandya and Chola Kings were followers of Jainism and Budhdhism and during their time heavily put down saivam and vainavam in Tamilnadu. I am sure you are aware of Kooraththazhvan’s loosing both his eyes at the command of a Tamil king. I look at these as the political events of those times. Just that and nothing more. But you are seeing in these a grand design by someone to put down knowledge acquisition. World over we have such instances which are purely failings of the political systems and individuals of those times. Otherwise how do you explain the burnings at the stakes and ghettoization of Jews in England etc.? You are seeing too much into these things because you think they will help you in your argument.

Raghy
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Sri Nara said :-

"What I am saying is, forget the box; think outside the box, if you will."

Sri Nara,

It seems you are suffering from optimism today!
​

Dear Raghy,
I am an optimist who never gives up. Now I understand my optimism is infective also.

 

[suraju06]

I missed to add this in the dotted portion of the last para of my reply. Here it is:கற்றூணை பூட்டி ஒரு கடலிலே பாய்ச்சினும் நற்றுணை ஆவது நமச்சிவாயவே.
சீரஸ்.

 

[Ramansrini]

Nara,

I agree with you. In fact, Mathurakavi azhvar accepted Namalwar as his guru. Highly educated Ramanuja acharya accepted uneducated Kanchipuran as his guru. All our acharyas saw only Bhakti; they did not see the caste.

Saint Ramananda was a famous teacher of the Ramanuja order. He advised his follower not to ask the caste of another devotee’, but unfortunately he was not accepted in South India because of his generous attitude. He settled in Banaras, accepting disciples of all castes. His most famous disciples were Bhanna Bhagat, Kabirdas, Nabhadas, Pipa, Ravidas, Sain, and Tulsidas.

I believe when the human mind works on higher intellectual plane, they don’t see any caste.

The foundation of Hinduism is everybody is divine.

Adiyen Srinivasan

 

[Nara]

If , as you say, there is only a lot of fury and sound and no meaning, I would have stopped coming here long back. I still think it is a dialogue and that is the reason I am again here.

I thought it was a clever joke, you know, Macbeth, a tale told by an idiot, that's me :0

Who is inside the box and who is outside the box is a matter of individual opinion not withstanding Heisenberg’s principle……..

The box refers to dogma. Saying that asking one to free oneself from dogma itself is dogma, is a logical trap. We can construct such traps for many situations. But these are exercises in futility. At present, the choice is not between dogma and no dogma, but between dogma and not being constrained by dogma. Whenever one accepts inerrancy of religious texts like the Vedas, one is putting oneself into a box. I will leave at that.

When I began, I climbed on top of a big soap box. I was hoping to show that historical truth is more complex than a simple-minded celebration of hoary tradition. I will end this presentation with one of the most forceful denunciation of caste consciousness, albeit within the confines of devotees of Sriman Narayana. This was perhaps the last time in the Sri Vaishnava tradition caste supremacy was decried.

This quotation is from a text called ஆசார்ய ஹ்ருதயம் by அழகிய மணவாளப் பெருமாள் நாயனார்.

After citing a long list of instances from puranic texts and from the life history of Acharyas before him, the author says the following as the last verse in the first chapter of the text.

அஜ்ஞர் ப்ரமிக்கிற வர்ண ஆச்ரம வித்யா வ்ருத்தங்களை கர்தப ஜந்மம், ச்வபசாதமம், சில்ப நைபுணம், பஸ்மாஹுதி, சவ விதவா அலங்காரம், என்று கழிப்பர்.​

(The ignorant are the ones who are astounded by varnashrama. Their birth is the lowliest. Their knowledge and skill will be rejected as equal to ahuthi put into ash, and, decoration on a cadaver or a widow.)​

அஜ்ஞர் = ignorant
கர்தப = donkey (?)
ச்வபசாதமம் = great learning
நைபுணம் = skill, proficiency

I am sure Shri Raju will tell me that I am taking things out of context etc. But, unfortunately, whatever the context may be, over the years the Sri Vasinavas have neatly bundled up all the progressive spirit of early Acharyas and consigned them to பரண்.

The more religious you get among Sri vaishnavas, the more such things as what thiruman to put, who can join the goshti, who gets perumal theertham in which order, are the issues of priority. The less religious you are, you care little about these things. So, if you are not much into religion, you are already at an advantage, keep it that way.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

//The box refers to dogma. Saying that asking one to free oneself from dogma itself is dogma, is a logical trap. We can construct such traps for many situations. But these are exercises in futility. At present, the choice is not between dogma and no dogma, but between dogma and not being constrained by dogma. Whenever one accepts inerrancy of religious texts like the Vedas, one is putting oneself into a box.//
Mr Narayan, You have constructedc one such trap now. "but between dogma and not being constrained by dogma" is itself a dogma because you do not know that the other party to the dialogue might be aware of this danger and might have carefully avoided falling into this trap. He might have considered all the so called beautiful options lying outside the so called "box" and might have come to the conclusion that what he has in hand is far far better than what is available outside the socalled "box". Would you still say he is dogmatic?

Well coming to the caste system about which you are so focussed, I have already spelt out my position. Would you please make your position clear? Do you think castes do not make any sense? If so on whata grounds? Then how do we go about eradicating it? Is there any sampradhayam(leaving vaishnavas) within the Hindu fold which has expressed itself against the castes and if so on what grounds? I think instead of beating around the bush this would help us understand things in a better perspective.Thanks. Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

அஜ்ஞர் ப்ரமிக்கிற வர்ண ஆச்ரம வித்யா வ்ருத்தங்களை கர்தப ஜந்மம், ச்வபசாதமம், சில்ப நைபுணம், பஸ்மாஹுதி, சவ விதவா அலங்காரம், என்று கழிப்பர்.​

(The ignorant are the ones who are astounded by varnashrama. Their birth is the lowliest. Their knowledge and skill will be rejected as equal to ahuthi put into ash, and, decoration on a cadaver or a widow.)


No doubt. There is nothing new about this quote. More than this Alwar himself has said that it is "gaja snanam, aranya ruthiram" etc. But the context is different. He speaks about bhakti and surrender. It has nothing to do with making fun of yajnas or chantaing manathras. You get want you want when you look at elders life/study vedas/puranas/agamas/philosophy. Whether it is knowlledge which helps you become humble or it is knowledge which makes you proud and deceitful is purely in your hands only. buththi thelivu enbathu veru buththi koormai enbathu veru. thelivillatha buththi koormai aapaththaanathu.(sorry my tamil ime is not functioning)
​

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Raju:

Greetings!

I think language is an imperfect vehicle to convey ideas. Some are good at it and some are not. I am probably not as very articulate as I should be.

To be free of dogma is not illogical in my mind. But it is probably one for someone trained in tharkkkam or whatever. From a practical POV, I think notions such as inerrancy of the Vedas and infallibility of Acharyas are not very helpful in the pursuit of truth. If you have already looked outside the religious dogma and found the outside world to be wanting, well, good luck to you inside the box.

I do talk a lot about caste. Getting branded as a one trick pony is a small price to pay for the moral obligation I feel for the abuses low castes have suffered for ages and in some cases continue to suffer. My gripe here is the unrecognized hypocrisy of Sri vaishnavas who on the one hand celebrate the Acharya parampara at every opportunity and at the same time engage, in a blissfully ignorant fashion, the very caste based discrimination the azhvars and acharyas condemned repeatedly and in no uncertain terms, in any context.

In this regard, I am sorry to say, you have not answered my pointed query in post # 67. I give below that question.

...... But what I am also saying is, put your money where your mouth is. Show me one brahmin SV institution where this is practiced. The present day Brahmin SVs, both observant and the weekend Brahmins, who take great pride in the greatness of Azhvars and commentators like SPP, hypocritically ignore even this narrow vision of respect within the community of Bhagavathas irrespective of caste.
​

Dear Shri. Raju, I think you are a gentleman and I would like to think of you as a dear friend. So please do not think I am directing these accusations against you, personally, I am not. My point is not that all TBs are narrow minded bigots, though I am sure there are some. Most are well meaning, but prejudice does lurk deep inside. Pull that dragon out and slay it.

Thanks!

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Raghy,

Sri PvRaman Sir,


Then the most important was 'Sapthapathy'. I don't remember the seven steps. I am sure, our learned members would provide the meaning for 'Sapthapathy'.

(If I sound smart by getting the meaning, hear this- even last month my wife was demanding something of me and asked me to fulfil my promise; I was surprised and said I did not make such a promise in the recent days. She said, 'of course you did! I also listened to the meaning of the promises you made as agni as shatshi! You better fulfil them!'. So, I guess, that is the downside of learning the meanings!)

Thanks for your above information. To think of not knowing the meaning of mantras, I guess, its saving me to some extent....

I searched for Sapthapathy in the net. There were two sites, describing entirely two different meaning. So, I think better i search for the original sanskrit mantras first.

Please address me Just PVR.

Thanks

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sir,

i have not read Sri Bashyam. But When i was browsing, in one website, it was stated that Sri Ramanujar in Sri Bashyam has mentioned of Shudra's as below,

பகவத் பலன தானக்ருதாம்
விஸ்தீரணாம் ப்ரம்ம சூத்ர வ்ருத்திம்
பூர்வாச்சாரியாஹா சஞ்சிக்ஷபூஹி
தன்மதானு சாரேந சூத்ரா அக்ஹதாரீ
வ்யாக்யாஸ்யந்தே....

What is the meaning of this slokam?.

Thanks

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sir,

According to the following verses of manusmriti,

10.81. But a Brahmana, unable to subsist by his peculiar occupations just mentioned, may live according to the law applicable to Kshatriyas; for the latter is next to him in rank.

10.82. If it be asked, ’How shall it be, if he cannot maintain himself by either (of these occupations?’ the answer is), he may adopt a Vaisya’s mode of life, employing himself in agriculture and rearing cattle.

Which means brahmanas can be to other varnas, and its not by birth.

2.155. The seniority of Brahmanas is from (sacred) knowledge, that of Kshatriyas from valour, that of Vaisyas from wealth in grain (and other goods), but that of Sudras alone from age.
2.157. As an elephant made of wood, as an antelope made of leather, such is an unlearned Brahmana; those three have nothing but the names (of their kind).

Moreover
2.168. A twice-born man who, not having studied the Veda, applies himself to other (and worldly study), soon falls, even while living, to the condition of a Sudra and his descendants (after him).
3.109. A Brahmana shall not name his family and (Vedic) gotra in order to obtain a meal; for he who boasts of them for the sake of a meal, is called by the wise a foul feeder (vantasin).

For Untouchability

3.112. Even a Vaisya and a Sudra who have approached his house in the manner of guests, he may allow to eat with his servants, showing (thereby) his compassionate disposition. (The sudras are not described untouchables in brahmin house...)
4.223. A Brahmana who knows (the law) must not eat cooked food (given) by a Sudra who performs no Sraddhas; but, on failure of (other) means of subsistence, he may accept raw (grain), sufficient for one night (and day).
a vedic student
5.92. Let him carry out a dead Sudra by the southern gate of the town, but (the corpses of) twice-born men, as is proper, by the western, northern, or eastern (gates).
9.334. But to serve Brahmanas (who are) learned in the Vedas, householders, and famous (for virtue) is the highest duty of a Sudra, which leads to beatitude.
9.335. (A Sudra who is) pure, the servant of his betters, gentle in his speech, and free from pride, and alwaysseeks a refuge with Brahmanas, attains (in his next life) a higher caste.
10.108. Visvamitra, who well knew what is right or wrong, approached, when he was tormented by hunger, (to eat) the haunch of a dog, receiving it the hands of a Kandala.
Brahmanas
10.124. They must allot to him out of their own family (-property) a suitable maintenance, after considering his ability, his industry, and the number of those whom he is bound to support.
10.127. (Sudras) who are desirous to gain merit, and know (their) duty, commit no sin, but gain praise, if they imitate the practice of virtuous men without reciting sacred texts.

Sir, sudras are not described as untouchables and they are encouraged to serve brahmins as per the numerous verses as above. So, why this happened?

Regards

 

[Raghy]

Sri PVR,

I left 'sapthapathy' deliberately. We have learned members amoung us. I wish to hear them explaining those 7 steps. I hope it may happen soon. Thanks for your informations.

 

[suraju06]

Sri PvRaman Sir,

I could not help but, burst out laughing, when I read your post. I could visualise your predicament; that caused me to laugh more.

at the end of Gurukula vasam, usually the Guru finds a bride for his shishyan and take the leading part in performing the marriage. So, the vadhiyar/sashtri are considered guru. whenever we follow the vadhiyar's lead, he stays as the guru, irrespective of the occassion including the marriage ceremony. That's where the (temporary) guru/ shishya relationship occurs.

Until the 'homam' was lit, I was taking it easy too. I did not pay much attention. As the 'homam' was lit, the vadhiyar asked me to pay attention and asked me to repeat the mantras, pouring ghee in the homam. I refused to repeat. I said I did not undrstand what I was promising with 'agni shatshi'. My wife's uncle was a Sanskrit Sironmani who accepted my objection and informed the vadhiyar that he had an obligation to explain the mantras. Although the vadhiyar was not too happy, he had no option, but to comply.

I happily grilled the vadhiyar. Naturally, either he had no idea why he was asking me to do certain things or he did not want to say it. But, my wife's uncle did not budge one inch. He made sure the vadhiyar performed everything in sequence and also made sure I was explained.

Arundhathi star - In the evenings, inthe north-easterly direction, (for Chennai) (in the early mornings, it can be seen in the north westerly dirction, only the tail would have swung) we can see the saptha rishi mandalam. Arundhathi star can be seen (it is a very small dim star. It must be really far far away), always very close to the 6th star in the mandalam. It can be seen only by a person with a normal eye sight. Failure to see the star means, that person needs eye-repair. That was the reason for 'showing' Arundhathi.

Ammi midhithal - I asked uncle why it has to be Ammi. He said, it was the only handy flat surface at hand! No, he was joking. Ammi is the most important piece of equipment that accompanies the bride in starting a new home (the bride was not expected to go to the in-laws place. The newly married were expected to start a life together on their own). By placing her feet on the Ammi, she ascertains her importance in the homestead (theoritically). In other words, she is the boss in home!

Paaligai - When the Paaligai mantram came along, I was told that I should till the land and start a crop using the paaligai (they are actually seedlings). I said I was ready. I got a reply- 'summa alayadhedaa! Nee readynnu engalukku theriyum. Nee paatle kalaapai eduthundu kilambaadhe! Edhu oru saangiyam thaan!'. Oh, well, there went the farming opportunity!

Then the most important was 'Sapthapathy'. I don't remember the seven steps. I am sure, our learned members would provide the meaning for 'Sapthapathy'.

(If I sound smart by getting the meaning, hear this- even last month my wife was demanding something of me and asked me to fulfil my promise; I was surprised and said I did not make such a promise in the recent days. She said, 'of course you did! I also listened to the meaning of the promises you made as agni as shatshi! You better fulfil them!'. So, I guess, that is the downside of learning the meanings!)

We can go on writing pages about our vadhyar's ignorance of the meaning of the manthras. But then is it necessary? Is it not your mistake that you did not engage a sanskrit pundit to conduct your marriage instead of the poor vadhyar. If I were the vadhyar there I would have told you, I can only conduct the ceremonies with the manthras. If you want to know the meanings of the manthras I have no time for that now. You pay for it later and come to me. If you insist now and here, better look for someone else. Thank you. Dear friend, you dont ask your car driver critical questions about an internal combustion engine. If you ask he will ask you to put him in Engineering college first(if he is young) or to go and hang(if he is old).

 

[suraju06]

Dear Shri Raju:

Greetings!

I think language is an imperfect vehicle to convey ideas. Some are good at it and some are not. I am probably not as very articulate as I should be.

To be free of dogma is not illogical in my mind. But it is probably one for someone trained in tharkkkam or whatever. From a practical POV, I think notions such as inerrancy of the Vedas and infallibility of Acharyas are not very helpful in the pursuit of truth. If you have already looked outside the religious dogma and found the outside world to be wanting, well, good luck to you inside the box.

I do talk a lot about caste. Getting branded as a one trick pony is a small price to pay for the moral obligation I feel for the abuses low castes have suffered for ages and in some cases continue to suffer. My gripe here is the unrecognized hypocrisy of Sri vaishnavas who on the one hand celebrate the Acharya parampara at every opportunity and at the same time engage, in a blissfully ignorant fashion, the very caste based discrimination the azhvars and acharyas condemned repeatedly and in no uncertain terms, in any context.

In this regard, I am sorry to say, you have not answered my pointed query in post # 67. I give below that question.

...... But what I am also saying is, put your money where your mouth is. Show me one brahmin SV institution where this is practiced. The present day Brahmin SVs, both observant and the weekend Brahmins, who take great pride in the greatness of Azhvars and commentators like SPP, hypocritically ignore even this narrow vision of respect within the community of Bhagavathas irrespective of caste.
​

Dear Shri. Raju, I think you are a gentleman and I would like to think of you as a dear friend. So please do not think I am directing these accusations against you, personally, I am not. My point is not that all TBs are narrow minded bigots, though I am sure there are some. Most are well meaning, but prejudice does lurk deep inside. Pull that dragon out and slay it.

Thanks!

My dear friend Mr. Narayan,
Cool.I do not think that you are directing any statement against me personally. So you need not have any feelings on that count. I welcome a spirited discussion. Even a little bit of leg-pulling and banter is not out of place if only to make it interesting and I am young enough to take it in my stride.
//If you have already looked outside the religious dogma and found the outside world to be wanting, well, good luck to you inside the box// I am again saying you made a box with all your prejudices and preconceived notions and you are stuck with it like Dr. Faustus was stuck with his devil.Vedas are not really as bad as you think. In fact they give a lot of freedom to you to think and feel for yourself. In fact no other religious text has given space for atheism as a part of its content. As I have already said caste is part of the creation which you cannot simply wish away. If not the name 'caste' it will be in some other name.This world was created by சமன் இல்லாதன பல பரப்பி. What is bad is the caste discrimination and the invention of higher and lower ones among castes. In my opinion these were invented to control the society. These are the contribution of the people who lived in the social system and it is their failure.Here I would like to quote an episode which we come across frequently while teaching transactional analysis in behavioural science classes. After completing the lecture about the various ego states of mind(parent, adult, child) and how the info can be gleaned by careful observation and how it can be put to use in real life situations, invariably the participants come and ask whether there is anything good or bad about a ego state. We invariably reply that there is nothing good or bad about ego states and ego states are just egostates. Every one goes through these ego states several times and on several occasions.I hope this triggers some thought in your mind about castes and how they are viewed by vedas. Today's political atmosphere is such that the castes and their discriminatory tags will continue because they are the base from which political power flows. So why find fault with Vedas and single out the Srivaishnava community or the brahmin community for the caste evil. I think you are barking up the wrong tree.The dragon has escaped long back from the minds of brahmins. It is outside and is playing havoc. For slaying it brahmins are helpless. It is in this context that your views amount to chestbeating and wailing without any purpose. You are my friend and will continue to be so. No hard feelings please. Cheers.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Raju,

We can go on writing pages about our vadhyar's ignorance of the meaning of the manthras. But then is it necessary? Is it not your mistake that you did not engage a sanskrit pundit to conduct your marriage instead of the poor vadhyar. If I were the vadhyar there I would have told you, I can only conduct the ceremonies with the manthras. If you want to know the meanings of the manthras I have no time for that now. You pay for it later and come to me. If you insist now and here, better look for someone else. Thank you. Dear friend, you dont ask your car driver critical questions about an internal combustion engine. If you ask he will ask you to put him in Engineering college first(if he is young) or to go and hang(if he is old).

In every profession expertise is the key which will be rewarded with pats and prizes. Vadhyars are the link between NB-Brahmin (who does all the work except the one allotted for them) and the Hindu dharma. In other words, I feel, without vadhyars, the brahmin caste will slowly dissolve. So, they are the ISI stamp for brahmins. So, by asking the meaning in the right spirit to learn, should not be a problem. Afterall, if they can not explain, soon they will be replaced with Tape Records or CDs.

As I stated before, When I got married i did not ask anything and it was nothing to do with Vadhyars. I feel, Vadhyar's (in order to be in that position) should be able to explain if somebody wants to know. They can educate many.

Moreover vadhyars are also like family friends, So, when we ask them, we can ask them with that "urimai". They are the only folks who has more chance and authority to re-work on the rituals and educate other folks.

Regards

 

[Raghy]

Sri Raju, Thanks for your kind words.

Sri Raju said:-

“We can go on writing pages about our vadhyar's ignorance of the meaning of the manthras. But then is it necessary? Is it not your mistake that you did not engage a sanskrit pundit to conduct your marriage instead of the poor vadhyar.”

Sir, The ‘poor’ vadhyar in question knew the meanings for all the manthras he said. In fact my father-in-law who was a Sanskrit Sironmani himself, engaged this vadhyar only because of his ‘pandyathyam’ in Sanskrit. The same vadhyar conducted my Upanayanam years before; I requested to know the meanings that time and he complied too. So, he knew I would be asking for the meanings. I fail to recall stating anywhere that the vadhyar was ignorant about the meanings. He did not know the location of Arundhathi star. That information was known only to myself and my wife; we did not disclose that to anybody. On the next day I wrote the location of the star with a sketch of Saptha Rishi Mandalm for my vadhiyar. Few years later, I attended a marriage conducted by this same vadhiyar. He encouraged the newly weds to ask for the meanings; he did not even bother to go out to show them Arundhathi! He gave them a piece of paper and said, “Kuzhanthai, here is the location of Arundhathi. On a cloudless sky, in the evening, seek to find this star. If you can’t find it, check your eyes! I can’t find it anyway due to saleshvaram!” Actually he became a very popular vadhiyar.

Sri Raju said :-
“If I were the vadhyar there I would have told you, I can only conduct the ceremonies with the manthras. If you want to know the meanings of the manthras I have no time for that now. You pay for it later and come to me. If you insist now and here, better look for someone else. Thank you.”

Sir, in my humble opinion, you would not have made in to a popular vadhyar.

Sri Raju said :-

“Dear friend, you dont ask your car driver critical questions about an internal combustion engine. If you ask he will ask you to put him in Engineering college first(if he is young) or to go and hang(if he is old).”

Sir, thanks for sharing your experiences with your car driver. I never had a car while I was in India; only vehicle I ever had was a bi-cycle. So, your experiences are enlightening. Thanks.