நான் ஒரு இந்து Outstanding article by Kannadasan.

[sarang]

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Well put, sir.

They chose to be poor, and did not make it their primary objective to make and store wealth. Even in the mid fifties, I have come across two humble and poor (by our standards) who taught ayurveda and jyotisha to interested non-brahmin students without receiving (or demanding) any fee. He happily and graciously accepted whatever they gave on special occasions - festivals, his birthday etc. Some of the students became successful practitioners and moderately rich.

We have accepted modern conditions and way of life. That does not mean that we have to disrespect our tradition, anushtanam or talk ill of our fellow brahmins or our ancestors.

It is sad that wisdom and spiritual wealth inherited from thousand year old tradition is squandered away by some leaving a void which is filled with hatred and negative feelings and thoughts.

The reason why the miniscule brahmin caste became the target of attack has been analysed here again and again. They were hardworking and yet non violent. They were very poor and yet were benevolent. They were disciplined and yet not in a military way with any offensive intent. They were recognized as such and were respected and were taken care of by the kings. This became an eyesore for those middle castes who were rich but were also rapacious, were united in their biradari with offensive intentions and so were always looked at with suspicion, were too much given to every indulgence whether it is drink, gambling, eating or woman. This made them green with envy. The nonviolent nature of the brahmins was a facilitating factor. So they were singled out for being the most visible symbol of every thing that is desirable in this world. And attacked. And then politics took over and everything is okay in politics.

 

[sarang]

And get back to kannadasan and the wisdom expressed in his writing.

Sirs,
Enough is enough. Why not we take a serious note of the above posting? May I humbly request the Learned Members to desist from sending any further refutation on this thread and thus exhibit our oneness. Let the BBs,if they wish, preach their own theory without any one to counter.

Above all we believe God is love. Let us strive to spread love.

It is my humble request.

With regards

 

[sangom]

< snipped >
2. This thread , in all probability, will be closed in a day if it continues the discussion as it is done now.

< snipped >

I can read what is going on behind the scenes. If this thread is closed, so be it.

1. So tambrams are a subset of every state tambrams - kerala, plus other states like karnataka, andhra, gujarat, maharashtra and so on. Perhaps there are no black shirts or caste/bc-obc reservation for education and jobs in kerala.

Tamilnadu brahmins, known as dravida brahmins (settled in dravida desa) like other gauda brahmins, kalinga brahmins were all well respected, welcomed, showered with gifts not only by the kings who sought them out and settled them, but also by the local chieftains and village heads for the rich culture and erudition brought by the brahmins. Their services were useful in religious and temple affairs, explaining dharma, village administration, solving of disputes, teaching of scriptures and all other sastras - ayurveda, natya, building, architecture and everything else.

Rājatarangini of Kalhaṇa states that in those days the people generally held that brahmanas of the sub-continent were divided into two main sections called 1. pañca gauḍa brahmins, and, 2. pañca drāviḍa brahmins. The composition as per Rājatarangini is :—

कर्णाटकाश्च तैलंगा द्राविडा महाराष्ट्रकाः, गुर्जराश्चेति पञ्चैव द्राविडा विन्ध्यदक्षिणे ||
सारस्वताः कान्यकुब्जा गौडा उत्कलमैथिलाः, पञ्चगौडा इति ख्याता विन्ध्स्योत्तरवासिनः ||
Hence, you may kindly see that there is no comparison between drāviḍa brahmins and gauda brahmins while there was no concept of kalinga brahmins back in those days.

The brahmins of the erstwhile Madras Presidency consisted of the present day brahmins of Tamil Nadu or Tabras, plus the brahmins of present day A.P. upto Ganjam Dt., and excluded those in the states of Travancore, Cochi and Mysore.

You are correct, historically speaking, that all these brahmins were "all well respected, welcomed, showered with gifts not only by the kings who sought them out and settled them, but also by the local chieftains and village heads"



but whether such welcome and respect was for "for the rich culture and erudition brought by the brahmins." or whether those kings local chieftains, etc., were enamoured of getting themselves conferred with kṣatriya status and a lineage going back to either the Sun or the Moon and having legendary rulers like Rama, Kuru, Bharata, etc., in that artificially conferred by the imported Aryan brahmanas, is a doubtful point.

Even if we take your assertion as correct, it applied only to the immigrant brahmins and not necessarily to the descendents of those brahmins in the 20th. century.

Similar is the case with respect to your further assertion that "Their services were useful in religious and temple affairs, explaining dharma, village administration, solving of disputes, teaching of scriptures and all other sastras - ayurveda, natya, building, architecture and everything else." especially because it is now known beyond doubt that a civilization of the Dravida countries existed in the Sangam period itself.

When the macaulay and the missionaries realised that bharat cannot be conquered and converted unless the brahmins are subdued, they schemed to destroy the well run social structure and demean brahmins. Perhaps a careful, unbiased and unhurried reading of past history will open the eyes of some, if not all.

Macaulay might or might not have had a plan to conquer bharat but it is very clear that his method was to "do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern; a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population" (Macaulay's Minute on Indian Education). It is rather very well-known as to which section of the Indian population, especially in the Madras Presidency eagerly took to English education and thus became the tools in the hands of the British overlords. I also recommend the same medicine

It is a welcome trend in all internet groups - any deliberate brahmin bashing by the black shirts, pseudo brahmis, self-styled-brahmin reformers - is rebuffed and opposed in equal measure. Traditional activities and discussions are also in full swing with respectable participation.

No comments since it is not relevant to the discussion.

For a start, the resident BBs can announce that they are no longer brahmins; as there is no khap to excommunicate them.

There is nothing wrong or derogatory in belonging to any varna or avarna. All are human; only if they accept and allow - you live your way, I will live mine; and don't blame, accuse or talk ill of our respected ancestors.

I will continue to claim that I was born as a Tamil Brahmin, to Tamil Brahmin parents and I have no intention of changing that position.

 

[Nara]

.....In this whole thread so far..no Non Brahmin member is taking an active part in this debate and everyone here 'fighting' with each other is a Brahmin!

Well, the same people arrayed against just two mischievous, incorrigible, intolerant, disgruntled, virulent BBs, engaged in gutter talk, often say anyone can be a Brahmin if they personify the qualities of a Brahmin. Given the Brahmin qualities they think of are all just the opposite of what they think we personify, your statement that Brahmins are fighting with each other is wrong. Further, to my dear brother sarang I would like to say, I don't consider myself a Brahmin and I don't want to be seen as a Brahmin, and if you would arrange a khap punjayat, I would gladly appeal to them to excommunicate me. So Renuka, please do not imprison me into the Brahmin jAti.

 

[Nara]

.... They were hardworking and yet non violent. They were very poor and yet were benevolent. They were disciplined and yet not in a military way with any offensive intent. They were recognized as such and were respected and were taken care of by the kings. .

So it is all pure envy on the part of the other 97%. Many Americans often ask why the rest of the world hate them, which is of course an overstatement, but a little honest introspection may open their minds and they may get a more nuanced understanding of the reasons behind low popularity of the Americans in many countries around the world.

Also, just yesterday I was listening to an interview of the author of the book "Shackles and Ivy: The Secret History of How Slavery Helped Build America’s Elite Colleges" in Democracy Now broadcast. The interview included Katrina Browne, a descendent of one the largest slave trading families of Rhode Island that helped establish Brown University. She arranged a group of her cousins to visit the slave trading routes her ancestors used and made a documentary out of the trip. I would like to cite a comment made by one those cousins, sitting in a dark, dank rooms where Africans were kept until they were sold and loaded onto ships.

The thing that I guess strikes me more than anything right now is that we've talked, when we were in Bristol and we were in Providence and were listening to historians and scholars, and we've heard people talk about, you know, "You've got to place it in the context of the times," and, "This is the way things were done," and "This is how, you know, life was." And I just—I sit in that dungeon, and I say, "[bleep]. It was an evil thing, and they knew it was an evil thing, and they did it anyway." (emphasis mine) And I couldn't have said that before—before tonight.

Source: Filmmaker Uncovers Her Family?s Shocking Slave-Trading History, Urges Americans to Explore Own Roots | Democracy Now!


​

This guy is talking about his own ancestors, not some vague group of White people who lived 200 years ago. It took a trip to Ghana and to sit in the dungeons for this man to truly come to understand the horrors his ancestors perpetrated, and he had the courage to see it for what it is and acknowledge it. He didn't hide behind tradition, respect for ancestors, etc.

One more thing, about this standing up to the two infamous and virulent BBs, yes, it is easy to stand up to us in the adoring company of fellow Brahmins who all share the same ஜாதி பெருமிதம்/வெறி. It would be commendable if you guys can take your arguments to places where you will not have the cheerleading gang behind you. But the, who wants to do that, it is lot more fun to join the தர்ம அடி session and feel good about standing up to the goons. That is alright, have your fun, but know this -- simply throwing epithets at us achieves nothing meaningful.

 

[renuka]

I would like to give my view here.

Anyone who had lived through the Japanese occupation in Malaysia had seen the horrors caused by them.

My own paternal grandmum who was pregnant with my father had to jump into a well cos she was trying to escape from a Japanese soldier in 1941.

She almost died but was saved by a passerby from the well.

My father grew up with severe water phobia not aware why he was so afraid of water until his mother told him that she tried to escape from a soldier by jumping into a well!


But today when anyone of them who went through the Japanese Occupation like my Father in Law for example... does not harbour hatred towards the Japanese..my Father in Law is half Chinese and looks 99% Chinese and was often mistaken for a Chinese during the Japanese occupation and that made him literally live in fear till the Japanese occupation was over as Japanese targeted the Chinese badly.

Now in Malaysia when anyone meets a Japanese tourist..they have high regard for them for their work ethics and humility and mannerism etc.

Even my own father does not have ill feelings towards any Japanese even though it was becos of a Japanese soldier that his mum almost died.

No one holds them responsible for the crimes towards humanity done by their ancestors.

But the Japanese have acknowledged the war crimes committed by their ancestors and have proved to be hard working individuals with manners and values.

When they were hit by the Tsunami a few years ago..many old people who survived the Japanese Occupation here still donated for Japan..saying that "I cant hold them responsible for what their ancestors did..I know what suffering is and I will help anyone who suffers"

So in the same manner here in this thread..to a certain extent most upper caste in the past and even present have been "guilty' of ill treatment of the down trodden caste either by thought,word and deed and no one can deny that.

I feel the best is for anyone of any caste to sit and ponder for a while that no one caste was perfect in the past.

Just accept what has happened as history and move on!

There is no need to bash each other or anyone about past history or either trying to justify any act done in the past or even saying that other caste were envious of any caste.

Living in the past has no value ..what matters is the present and only the present.

 

[Vaagmi]

So it is all pure envy on the part of the other 97%. Many Americans often ask why the rest of the world hate them, which is of course an overstatement, but a little honest introspection may open their minds and they may get a more nuanced understanding of the reasons behind low popularity of the Americans in many countries around the world.

Also, just yesterday I was listening to an interview of the author of the book "Shackles and Ivy: The Secret History of How Slavery Helped Build America’s Elite Colleges" in Democracy Now broadcast. The interview included Katrina Browne, a descendent of one the largest slave trading families of Rhode Island that helped establish Brown University. She arranged a group of her cousins to visit the slave trading routes her ancestors used and made a documentary out of the trip. I would like to cite a comment made by one those cousins, sitting in a dark, dank rooms where Africans were kept until they were sold and loaded onto ships.

The thing that I guess strikes me more than anything right now is that we've talked, when we were in Bristol and we were in Providence and were listening to historians and scholars, and we've heard people talk about, you know, "You've got to place it in the context of the times," and, "This is the way things were done," and "This is how, you know, life was." And I just—I sit in that dungeon, and I say, "[bleep]. It was an evil thing, and they knew it was an evil thing, and they did it anyway." (emphasis mine) And I couldn't have said that before—before tonight.

Source: Filmmaker Uncovers Her Family?s Shocking Slave-Trading History, Urges Americans to Explore Own Roots | Democracy Now!


​

This guy is talking about his own ancestors, not some vague group of White people who lived 200 years ago. It took a trip to Ghana and to sit in the dungeons for this man to truly come to understand the horrors his ancestors perpetrated, and he had the courage to see it for what it is and acknowledge it. He didn't hide behind tradition, respect for ancestors, etc.

One more thing, about this standing up to the two infamous and virulent BBs, yes, it is easy to stand up to us in the adoring company of fellow Brahmins who all share the same ஜாதி பெருமிதம்/வெறி. It would be commendable if you guys can take your arguments to places where you will not have the cheerleading gang behind you. But the, who wants to do that, it is lot more fun to join the தர்ம அடி session and feel good about standing up to the goons. That is alright, have your fun, but know this -- simply throwing epithets at us achieves nothing meaningful.

Mr. Nara,

You made me come back here. I will be very brief.

1. It was never 97% which kazhagams and their sympathisers like you claim. kazhagams never reached the dalits. They were not in their antenna at all. Name a single leader in the upper echelons of the kazhagams who was close to your Erode from the dalit community. I will take back my statement. It was always the middle lump which was envious of the brahmins and it remains there still. It will never get away from there because it is mortally scared of the brahmins abilities,talent and integrity of character.

2. Your American repenter had unwashable sin in his/her hands. Brahmins do not have any such haunting history. The anglo saxons and nordics can take any number of journies all around the world and they will have to feel sorry for what their ancestors did a million times. They treated every one badly including the jews. Brahmins do not have such a pricking conscience. They are really proud of what they contributed to the Indian civilization. They are not the monsters that your american had in his/her ancestors. I do not want to make this very long. Please read the world history. It is just the history of the atrocities a single race committed on all other races of humanity. Shedding tears now will not wash. It will not give respectability either. You may think differently. It does not matter.

3. You have not said anything new. The only new thing is your arrogant chest beating about dharma adi (தர்ம அடி) Thank you for your advice to us to be "bold", which is not the right word-you know that and yet you have used it. We will not be foolhardy because you want us to get some விழுப்புண் . This forum is a decent forum obviously because it is a brahmin forum. No வெண்ணை விளக்கெண்ணை வரியாடா ஒத்தைக்கொத்தை here. Go to your erode forums for that kind of entertainment. You have cheerleading done by one member here which is more than what a big gang can do. No epithets. Just statement of fact. Thanks. Let us meet some other thread again.

 

[Raghy]

Greetings.

( I owe response in 'Brahma Sutra' thread to Sri. Ravi, Sri. Sravna, Sri. TKS and Sri. Vaggmi. Kindly pardon me. Eventually I would respond, not yet though. I don't have a computer. This is a borrowed computer).

I came across a very interesting blog. I could not resist sharing it with the forum. This thread seems to be the appropriate place. I may not respond to the comments though. The blog was by Sri. Jeyamogan. I am copy pasting some of the portions from the blog, providing the link for the full blog entry. By the way, Sri. Jeyamogan had more leaning towards communist party; a secularist; does not favour any caste; does seem to support dalit improvements.

I do not have Sri. Jeyamogan's permission to provide the portions of his blog and the link for his blog. Sri. Jeyamogan may get annoyed by my action. (Sri. Jeyamogan, I am not sorry, the blog is too good not to be shared. I am happy to face unkind comments from you).

Following portions are quoted from the blog, written by Sri. Jeyamogan......

வன்னியர்களுக்கு தாழ்த்தப்பட்டவர்கள் மீது இருக்கும் உக்கிரமான வெறுப்பும் விலக்கமும் பீதியூட்டுவது. இத்தனைக்கும் அவர்களுக்கும் தாழ்த்தப்பட்டவர்களுக்கும் அன்றாட வாழ்க்கை ஒருவரோடொருவர் பின்னிப்பிணைந்து கிடந்தது. ஆனால் மிக மூர்க்கமாக அவர்கள் பேதங்களைப் பேணினார்கள். என்னுடைய சொந்த அனுபவங்களை ஒரு நாவலாகவே எழுத முடியும்.

நான் அன்று சந்தித்தவரை அங்கிருந்த வன்னியர்களில் மிகப்பெரும்பான்மையினர் கடுமையான திராவிட இயக்க ஆதரவாளர்கள். ஈவேரா பற்றி ஒரு சொல் எதிர்மறையாகச் சொல்லிவிடமுடியாது. ஈவேரா அங்கு பலநூறு முறை வந்திருக்கிறார். அவர் பேசாத ஊர்களே அங்கே இல்லை. பெரும்பாலான வீடுகளில் அவரது காலண்டர்கள் கிடக்கும். அவர் கிட்டத்தட்ட கடவுள். அவரால்தான் எல்லாமே என்ற நம்பிக்கை. ஈவேரா அவர்களிடம் ‘சாதி இல்லை’ என்று கற்பிக்கவில்லை. தலித்துக்களும் சகமனிதர்களே என்று சொல்லவில்லை. அவர்களுடைய கண்ணெதிரே நில உடைமைச்சக்திகளாக இருந்த நாயுடுக்களைக்கூட எதிரிகளாகச் சுட்டிககாட்டவில்லை . அவர்கள் தங்கள் கிராமங்களில் கண்ணால் பார்க்கவே வாய்ப்பில்லாத பிராமணர்கள்தான் அவர்களின் முன்னேற்றத்திற்குத் தடை என்று சொன்னார்.

ஈவேரா சொன்னவற்றில் இருந்து அவர்கள் எடுத்துக்கொண்டதும் அந்த கடுமையான பிராமண வெறுப்பை மட்டுமே. பிராமண வெறுப்பு என்பது அவர்களுக்குள் இருந்த அதைவிட தீவிரமான தலித் வெறுப்பின் இன்னொரு பக்கம், அவ்வளவுதான்.

அப்போதே தலித் மக்கள் பெங்களூர் ஓசூர் பகுதிகளுக்குச்சென்று கொஞ்சம் பணம் சம்பாதிக்க ஆரம்பித்திருந்தார்கள். முதல்முதலாக அவர்கள் வாங்குவது ஒரு டிவிஎஸ்50 வண்டியாக இருக்கும். அந்த வண்டிகளில் அவர்க்ள் செல்லும்போது ‘நேத்துவர நடந்த்போன கபோதிக்கு வண்டி கேக்குது’ என்று வன்னியர் பொருமுவதை நான் மீண்டும் மீண்டும் கேட்டிருக்கிறேன். அவர்கள் தொலைக்காட்சிப்பெட்டி வாங்கும்போது வீட்டுமுன்பக்கத்தை கொஞ்சம் இறக்கிக் கட்டி சன்னலுக்கு திரைச்சீலை போடும்போது வன்னியரிலும் நாயுடுக்களிலும் எழும் மனக்கொந்தளிப்பை கண்டிருக்கிறேன்.

பாலக்கோடு பகுதிகளில் அன்று டீக்கடைகளில் அடையாளம் இருந்தது. ஒரு டீக்கடையில் டீ கேட்டபோது முதலில் ‘பால் இல்லீங்க’ என்றார். பால் இருப்பதை கவனித்தேன். அதை நான் பார்ப்பதைக் கண்டதும் ‘இங்கெல்லாம் நீங்கள்லாம் சாப்பிடக்கூடாதுங்க’ என்றார் அவர். நான் சாப்பிடுவேன் என்றேன். ‘அய்யா கம்யூனிஸ்டுங்களா?’ என்றார். அங்குள்ள கிராமங்களில் ஒரு தாழ்ந்த்தப்பட்ட நண்பரின் இல்லத்துக்குச் சென்றுவிட்டு அங்கிருந்து கிராமச்சதுக்கத்துக்குச் சென்ற என்னை ஊர்க்காரர்கள் இருவர் பிடித்து வெளியே தள்ளியிருக்கிறார்கள். எங்கும் எவ்விடத்திலும் துல்லியமான சாதிமுத்திரை.

பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதியினரின் ஒருங்கிணைவின்மூலம் அரசியலதிகாரம்- இதுதான் திராவிட இயக்கத்தின் அரசியல் செயல்திட்டம். அதற்கு ஒரு பொது எதிரி அதற்கு தேவைப்பட்டது. ஆகவே பிராமணர் என்ற பொது எதிரியை உருவாக்கி முன்னிறுத்தியது திராவிட இயக்கம். அந்த பொது எதிரிமீதான வெறுப்பை உக்கிரமாக ஆக்குவதன்வழியாக பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டோரின் ஒருங்கிணைவைச் சாத்தியமாக்கியது. உலகமெங்கும் பாப்புலிஸ்ட் இயக்கங்கள் செயற்கையான பொது எதிரியை கொண்டே தங்கள் அதிகார ஒருங்கிணைப்பை அடைகின்றன

பிராமணரல்லாத உயர்சாதியினர் பிராமணருக்கு அரசதிகாரத்திலும் மதத்திலும் இருந்த ஆதிக்கத்துக்கு எதிராக கொண்ட கோபம் இங்கே ஏற்கனவே இருந்தது. அதுவே பிராமணரல்லாதோர் இயக்கமாக ஆகியது. அவ்வியக்கத்திடமிருந்து பிராமணவெறுப்பை கடன்கொண்ட ஈ.வே.ரா அதை பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டோரையும் பிராமணரல்லா உயர்சாதியினரையும் ஒரே அணியில் திரட்டுவதற்கான ஆயுதமாக அடையாளம் கண்டார். அதன் விளைவே திராவிட இயக்கம் அடைந்த அதிகாரம். காலப்போக்கில் எண்ணிக்கை பலத்தால் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டோர் மட்டுமே அதிகாரத்தை அடைய பிறர் கீழே வீழ்த்தப்பட்டார்கள். இந்த அரசியல் சதுரங்கத்தில் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டோர் மிதித்து ஏறிச்செல்லும் படியாக தலித் மக்கள் பயன்படுத்தப்பட்டார்கள்.

அதற்குப் பயன்படுத்தப்பட்டது பிராமணவெறுப்பு என்ற பொது எதிரிதான். ஒரு பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதி வெறியரின் மனநிலை மிகமிக ஆச்சரியமளிப்பது. அவர் பிராமணரை வெறுக்கிறார். காரணம், அவர்கள் தமிழர்களை சாதியால் பிரித்து ஆண்டார்கள் என்கிறார். ஆனால் அவர் தன் சாதியை விட்டுக்கொடுக்க மாட்டார். சாதியின் அடிப்படையில் தலித்துக்களை வெறுப்பார், முன்னேற விட மாட்டார். தலித்துக்கள் தன்னுடைய சாதிவெறியை பொருட்படுத்தக்கூடாதென்று ஒரு பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதிவெறியர் நினைக்கிறார். சாதியை கற்பித்தவர்கள் பிராமணர்கள் என்றும் ஆகவே தன்னுடைய சாதிவெறிக்காக தலித்துக்கள் பிராமணரை வெறுக்கவேண்டும் என்றும் அவர் கோருகிறார்

திராவிட இயக்கக் கொள்கையின்படி தருமபுரியில் தலித்துக்களை தாக்கிய வன்னியர்களை தலித்துக்கள் குற்றம் சொல்லக்கூடாது. அவர்களை சாதிகளாக பிரித்த பிராமணர்களைத்தான் வெறுக்கவேண்டும். வன்னியர்கள் தங்கள் சாதியை பிராமணர்கள் சொன்னாலும் விடமாட்டார்கள். ஆனால் தலித்துக்கள் பிராமண எதிர்ப்பில் வன்னியர்களுடன் கைகோர்க்கவேண்டும்.

ஐம்பதாண்டுக்காலமாக இங்கே சொல்லப்பட்டுவந்த இந்த மாய்மாலத்தை கொஞ்சமேனும் திரைவிலக்கிப் புரிந்துகொள்ள இந்த கலவரங்கள் தலித்துக்களுக்கு உதவுமென்றால் இவை நல்லவைதான். சாதி என்ற பிரச்சினையின் வரலாற்று உண்மையை அறிய , அதன் கண்களை நோக்கி பேச அவர்களால் முடிந்தால் அது நல்லதுதான்.

Sri. Jeyamogan's views are no different to my own views. I have seen exactly the same thing in my village too. I wrote about them earlier. Sri.Jeyamogan analysed very well and presented his blog with more details.

The blog is called ' Dharumapuri'.

The blog can be read here - ????????

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

I would like to give my view here.

< snipped >
There is no need to bash each other or anyone about past history or either trying to justify any act done in the past or even saying that other caste were envious of any caste.

Living in the past has no value ..what matters is the present and only the present.

Smt. Renuka,

If you have followed this thread from the beginning, you will observe that there was no bashing based on caste till a particular stage. The OP it looked to me at least, was aimed at waving a good certificate for hindus and hinduism. In post # 2, I said that a certificate from a person like Kannadasan "does not add to the greatness of the religion but only lowers it".

I don't think this can be called as "bashing". But then onwards different members contributed their own (relevant and partly relevant) views and this thread got labelled as BB and as usual the rest of the paraphernalia followed. I know that neither Nara nor myself want to put down or sully the brahmins or the brahmin community, but we both consider - just as you have said - that "most upper caste in the past and even present has been "guilty' of ill treatment of the down trodden caste either by thought,word and deed" and we desire that our members here start pondering over the truth or otherwise of this statement. But the irony is that one small coterie here thinks that since this forum's name is tamilbrahmins.com, there is a fundamental duty here not to speak (anything) ill about brahmins and to eulogize brahmins at all costs. This is the root cause of the rift, and the same mental attitude of the brahmins, according to me, gave birth to the anti-brahmin movement which has practically swept brahmins completely off from the Tamil Nadu scene.

Unlike the Japanese, who "have acknowledged the war crimes committed by their ancestors", our friends here are obstinate to admit any wrong doing and even now they try to stand well-known history on its head, by stating that everything happened due to the aggressive, violent and caste-conscious high-caste NBs.

 

[Vaagmi]

Greetings.

( I owe response in 'Brahma Sutra' thread to Sri. Ravi, Sri. Sravna, Sri. TKS and Sri. Vaggmi. Kindly pardon me. Eventually I would respond, not yet though. I don't have a computer. This is a borrowed computer).

I came across a very interesting blog. I could not resist sharing it with the forum. This thread seems to be the appropriate place. I may not respond to the comments though. The blog was by Sri. Jeyamogan. I am copy pasting some of the portions from the blog, providing the link for the full blog entry. By the way, Sri. Jeyamogan had more leaning towards communist party; a secularist; does not favour any caste; does seem to support dalit improvements.

I do not have Sri. Jeyamogan's permission to provide the portions of his blog and the link for his blog. Sri. Jeyamogan may get annoyed by my action. (Sri. Jeyamogan, I am not sorry, the blog is too good not to be shared. I am happy to face unkind comments from you).

Following portions are quoted from the blog, written by Sri. Jeyamogan......

Sri. Jeyamogan's views are no different to my own views. I have seen exactly the same thing in my village too. I wrote about them earlier. Sri.Jeyamogan analysed very well and presented his blog with more details.

The blog is called ' Dharumapuri'.

The blog can be read here - ????????

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

Am I not saying the same thing here in all my posts? And I do not know why you left out this:

தமிழகம் வெளியடையாளங்களில் சாதியை இல்லாமலாக்கிக்கொண்டு உள்ளே மேலும் வலுவாக்கிக்கொண்ட ஒரு சமூகம் என்ற எண்ணத்தை அங்கேதான் நான் அடைந்தேன். அதற்குக் காரணம் திராவிட இயக்கம் என்ற புரிதலையும். திராவிட இயக்கம் ஒரு பாப்புலிஸ்ட் இயக்கம். அது மக்களை நோக்கி உண்மையைப்பேசாது, மக்களுக்கு எது பிடிக்குமோ எதை அவர்கள் நம்ப விரும்புகிறார்களோ அதையே பேசும். மக்கள் தங்கள் குறைகள் சுட்டிக்காட்டப்படுவதை விரும்புவதில்லை. தங்கள் வீழ்ச்சிக்கு இன்னொரு எதிரியே காரணம் என நம்ப விரும்புவார்கள். பொது எதிரியை சுட்டிக்காட்டி பொதுவெறுப்பை தூண்டி அவர்களை வென்றெடுத்தார்கள் திராவிட இயக்கத்தினர்.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy,

Am I not saying the same thing here in all my posts?

Sri. Vaagmi,

Yes. You do. But you are a brahmin by birth and branded as someone who defends your caste. But Sri. Jeyamogan is not a brahmin by birth. He does not have any inclination to defend brahmin caste. His view points are beyond caste differences.

Hope I am more clearer as why I brought in Sri. Jeyamogan's blog here.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Vaagmi,

Yes. You do. But you are a brahmin by birth and branded as someone who defends your caste. But Sri. Jeyamogan is not a brahmin by birth. He does not have any inclination to defend brahmin caste. His view points are beyond caste differences.

Hope I am more clearer as why I brought in Sri. Jeyamogan's blog here.

Cheers!

Sri. Vaagmi,

I posted my message in post #86 before you edited your post # 85. You are right to quote the portion in post #85. In fact, the whole blog is worth quoting. That's why I just provided the link.

Kannadasn was correct to point out the hypocrisy of DK party and DK party policies.

By the way, I hope I have not offended you by my comments about you in my post #86. I observed such comments towards you in this forum. Since such stance was taken about you, often times even your secular views were considered leaning towards a particular caste, mostly brahmin caste. In this thread I was only an occasional observer so long. Only tonight I took part.

Cheers!

 

[Vaagmi]

Sri. Vaagmi,

I posted my message in post #86 before you edited your post # 85. You are right to quote the portion in post #85. In fact, the whole blog is worth quoting. That's why I just provided the link.

Kannadasn was correct to point out the hypocrisy of DK party and DK party policies.

By the way, I hope I have not offended you by my comments about you in my post #86. I observed such comments towards you in this forum. Since such stance was taken about you, often times even your secular views were considered leaning towards a particular caste, mostly brahmin caste. In this thread I was only an occasional observer so long. Only tonight I took part.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

I do not know. This is a forum where the members are largely brahmins. So every one here has the tag brahmin attached to them whether they like it or not. So identify me by that tag is nothing special. I look at it fromk another angle and try to understand it. People generally try to put you in a pigeon hole with a tag so that it is convenient for them deal with you. One who at times appear to be casteist and at others secular is not an easy case to deal with. Jaya mohan or vaagmi any one can analyse the given situation from a neutral standpoint and yet be critical about what they see. Unfortunately some of our friends miss this point completely. Their interest is rather to deal with you than with what you say. That is why this talk of தர்ம அடி etc., here and the challenge to go and talk to goons.

Thanks

 

[Raghy]

Dear Raghy,

I do not know. This is a forum where the members are largely brahmins. So every one here has the tag brahmin attached to them whether they like it or not. So identify me by that tag is nothing special. I look at it fromk another angle and try to understand it. People generally try to put you in a pigeon hole with a tag so that it is convenient for them deal with you. One who at times appear to be casteist and at others secular is not an easy case to deal with. Jaya mohan or vaagmi any one can analyse the given situation from a neutral standpoint and yet be critical about what they see. Unfortunately some of our friends miss this point completely. Their interest is rather to deal with you than with what you say. That is why this talk of தர்ம அடி etc., here and the challenge to go and talk to goons.

Thanks

Dear Sri. Vaagmi,

Personally I accept your right to defend and/ or talk highly of your community or caste provided you are not talking ill of any other community without any valid reason.

I have not observed you doing that in any of your messages as Vaagmi or in the past.

I believe it is not wrong to be a casteist at times. Why not? So many times I observed persons helping/ seeking help for the betterment of someone in their community/ caste. In my opinion, although casteist, such actions are not wrong. I have helped for such causes in the past too.

Cheers!

 

[tks]

Human beings have always found some reason to assert their power over others and other beings. It happened eons ago, happened in the recent past, happening now and will happen until human race is extinct.

Anyone that generalizes human beings, puts them in categories and uses categories to say hateful things is a prejudiced person. The object of prejudice is irrelevant - it can change. The criminals who love to beat up others for the fun of it will become bouncers in a bar or try to get an employment in a police force since it can legitimize their need to put down others.

Anyone that expresses *repeatedly* messages of hate against own ancestors and obsessed with acting 'holier than thou' is a "special person" and needs a therapist. One poster posts hateful messages , and turns around plays victim in the next set of messages. What games are being played only Isvara knows.

My guess is that anyone that has had serious issues with parental figures and most likely their father figure may turn out that way. If someone is brought up in an environment where they have to suspend reasoning abilities and made to follow a lot of tradition without understanding may lead them to rebel against the whole system.

Caste discriminations and other such issues just happen to provide a platform to exhibit their hate towards their parental figures in repeated messages.

The best thing to do is to recognize what it is and move on.

 

[Nara]

Jayamohan is trying to expose the casteist mindset of Vanniyars, and that is good. Some of us here are trying to expose the casteist mindset of Brahmins in general and a few members here in particular. But, to the Brahmin defending coterie in this forum those of us who criticize casteism of Brahmins are hate-mongering BBs and worse. Then, to be consistent (if that is not too much of an ask), to them, Jayamohan must be a hate-mongering Vanniyar Basher. But they like Jayamohan, not because he is criticizing Vanniyar casteism and not their own, but because he criticizes the movement which they hate viscerally. So, they just pick and choose, ignore the underlying message of anti-jAti, ant-varna argument, take only his criticism of Dravidian movement, very convenient. I for one will embrace Jayamohan's underlying message of opposing casteism from any source, Vanniyar or Brahmin.

BTW, the history of the movement is a long one, with lots of ups and downs. There is lot to criticize and find fault. But, taken on the whole, with warts and all, the movement has been good for the general Tamil public. They have now run out of steam. The movement as it stands today, all its splintered groupings, is essentially a bourgeois one, dedicated to preserving their own power. They don't care about the poor and powerless.

It is also quite strange to see the sudden sympathy for Dalits, it has an odd ஆடு நனையரதுன்னு ஓநாய் அழுதுதாம் quality. In my life time I have seen how Brahmins treated Dalits, and they still do. The Dalit angst against the movement is well-founded and I am with them, criticizing the movement from the left. However, those who criticize the movement from the right, like the Brahmins, do so not out of any love for Dalits, but out of vengeance that the movement was instrumental in diluting their political power in Tamil Nadu, no more.

Lastly, I am not sanguine about anybody displaying ஜாதி பெருமிதம், I find it just disgusting. It is almost always a cover for ஜாதி வெறி and it will come out sooner or later in one form or another. In the case of Vanniyar's caste pride the Dalits will bear the brunt with burnt down villages, in the case of Brahmin caste pride the near and dear ones of the female kind will bear the brunt.

 

[Nara]

Here is something from some atheists from South Carolina:

Atheist Volunteers Snubbed By Soup Kitchen Will Restore Your Faith In Everything That's Good

"We are all in this humanity thing together, whether you believe in God or not”

 

[kunjuppu]

But the Japanese have acknowledged the war crimes committed by their ancestors and have proved to be hard working individuals with manners and values.

.

dear renus,

i would find fault for the above statement. please.

there is no remorse from the japanese for they did to the asians - south east or chinese or koreans. they are basically and intrinsically a monolithic single gene ethnically cogent society, who have no use for the rest of asia.

they revelled in apartheid south africa for considering the japanese as 'whites'. you, i, nara, vaaagmi - to them are gaijins. are there is more deragatoriness implied than what is ever mentioned about any foreign race in the tamil language, which basically is welcoming to the world under its principles யாதும் ஊரே!! யாவரும் கேளிர்!!

a couple and only experience of mine with japanese..

- about 10 years ago, with my teen twins i was travelling out of bangkok via narita to toronto. they announced the booths open for the flight and for we were first in one of the rows. the japanese came, and joined every other lineup where there were japanese. till. till a white family, finding the ridiculous dispersion, where 7 rows were 20 deep all japanese, and we were the only ones in one row. the whites had no hesitation in joining our row, and guess what... the japanese rushed to join our group. i pointed this out to my twins right from the start as to this behaviour. one can give any 'n' reasons. but i beg to differ...plain racism.

- the same flight - we land in narita. all japanese and whites waved away at the immigration. the only ones left are us and one sri lankan buddhist priest. ofcourse these as*&^%es were very polite. they showed me all the drugs in this world and asked if i was carrying them. here i was with my two young children. i politely told them no. then these officers all got together, and in their own language discussed for 5 minutes before letting me out. i only got out because i had a 12 hour wait, and i just wanted to see something of the neighbourhood. ... japanese, next to indians, are the most racist in the world.

thank you. thank yo dear renus.

ps..ask any chinese from china or korea, if there is any sense of remorse from japan for their war crimes. please.

 

[kunjuppu]

Jayamohan is trying to expose the casteist mindset of Vanniyars, and that is good. Some of us here are trying to expose the casteist mindset of Brahmins in general and a few members here in particular. But, to the Brahmin defending coterie in this forum those of us who criticize casteism of Brahmins are hate-mongering BBs and worse. Then, to be consistent (if that is not too much of an ask), to them, Jayamohan must be a hate-mongering Vanniyar Basher. But they like Jayamohan, not because he is criticizing Vanniyar casteism and not their own, but because he criticizes the movement which they hate viscerally. So, they just pick and choose, ignore the underlying message of anti-jAti, ant-varna argument, take only his criticism of Dravidian movement, very convenient. I for one will embrace Jayamohan's underlying message of opposing casteism from any source, Vanniyar or Brahmin.

BTW, the history of the movement is a long one, with lots of ups and downs. There is lot to criticize and find fault. But, taken on the whole, with warts and all, the movement has been good for the general Tamil public. They have now run out of steam. The movement as it stands today, all its splintered groupings, is essentially a bourgeois one, dedicated to preserving their own power. They don't care about the poor and powerless.

It is also quite strange to see the sudden sympathy for Dalits, it has an odd ஆடு நனையரதுன்னு ஓநாய் அழுதுதாம் quality. In my life time I have seen how Brahmins treated Dalits, and they still do. The Dalit angst against the movement is well-founded and I am with them, criticizing the movement from the left. However, those who criticize the movement from the right, like the Brahmins, do so not out of any love for Dalits, but out of vengeance that the movement was instrumental in diluting their political power in Tamil Nadu, no more.

Lastly, I am not sanguine about anybody displaying ஜாதி பெருமிதம், I find it just disgusting. It is almost always a cover for ஜாதி வெறி and it will come out sooner or later in one form or another. In the case of Vanniyar's caste pride the Dalits will bear the brunt with burnt down villages, in the case of Brahmin caste pride the near and dear ones of the female kind will bear the brunt.

nara, these folks are such idiots, they have not read jaymo's views on brahminism.

incidentally, jaymo wrote the script for angadi theru, and there is an episode there which portrays the brahmin woman inthe worst light. i dont know how these can explain this. filtered idiots...aka வடிகட்டின முட்டாள்ஸ்

 

[kunjuppu]

The best thing to do is to recognize what it is and move on.

tks,

i agree with you. i am of the same mentality myself.

but, when i see arrogance denial chauvinism ignorance unfortunately mixed with supposed half baked erudism blended with dishonesty, i cannot but pour myself here, with a dose of despair.

these folks, are not for repairing and nourishing. they belong to the hitlerite view of gotterdamerung - if the world is not per brahminism, the world is not worth existing. they will do everything to destroy hindus and hinduism, while claiming adherence to their version ie manu.

so sad. the even sadder fact, is today's middle castes of tamil nadu are their allies...screwing the dalits and ultimately destroying what is bharat...

dont know where this is all going to end.

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renuka,

If you have followed this thread from the beginning, you will observe that there was no bashing based on caste till a particular stage. The OP it looked to me at least, was aimed at waving a good certificate for hindus and hinduism. In post # 2, I said that a certificate from a person like Kannadasan "does not add to the greatness of the religion but only lowers it".

I don't think this can be called as "bashing". But then onwards different members contributed their own (relevant and partly relevant) views and this thread got labelled as BB and as usual the rest of the paraphernalia followed. I know that neither Nara nor myself want to put down or sully the brahmins or the brahmin community, but we both consider - just as you have said - that "most upper caste in the past and even present has been "guilty' of ill treatment of the down trodden caste either by thought,word and deed" and we desire that our members here start pondering over the truth or otherwise of this statement. But the irony is that one small coterie here thinks that since this forum's name is tamilbrahmins.com, there is a fundamental duty here not to speak (anything) ill about brahmins and to eulogize brahmins at all costs. This is the root cause of the rift, and the same mental attitude of the brahmins, according to me, gave birth to the anti-brahmin movement which has practically swept brahmins completely off from the Tamil Nadu scene.

Unlike the Japanese, who "have acknowledged the war crimes committed by their ancestors", our friends here are obstinate to admit any wrong doing and even now they try to stand well-known history on its head, by stating that everything happened due to the aggressive, violent and caste-conscious high-caste NBs.

Dear Sangom ji,

When I used to word "bashing" what really meant is not Brahmin Bashing but everyone bashing each other here in a war of words.


Anyway I do echo you sentiment in the technical point of view as neutral person who does not think on caste lines.

 

[Nara]

these folks, are not for repairing and nourishing. they belong to the hitlerite view of gotterdamerung - if the world is not per brahminism, the world is not worth existing. they will do everything to destroy hindus and hinduism, while claiming adherence to their version ie manu. .

K, I think I may have a mental disorder that needs examining, and given the freelance psychiatric quackery on display I think you are not any less qualified to offer some practical advice how to cope. I seem to come down with a serious case of LOL whenever I see a well known imbecile making grand statements sitting on his high horses, I am unable to control myself and keep falling out of my chair laughing the heck out loud. Is this because I have some deep seated inability to suffer fools? Is there any cure for this? I know laughter is the best medicine, but I am wondering whether I am being served a little too much of it lately.

 

[Raghy]

nara, these folks are such idiots, they have not read jaymo's views on brahminism.

incidentally, jaymo wrote the script for angadi theru, and there is an episode there which portrays the brahmin woman inthe worst light. i dont know how these can explain this. filtered idiots...aka வடிகட்டின முட்டாள்ஸ்

Sri. Kunjuppu,

I posted Jeyamogan's blog. I am quite aware of his stand on 'brahminism' or 'paarppaneeyam'.

I am also very much aware about 'angadi theru' and also aware about what he had to say when faced criticisms post 'angadi theru'.

In fact, his blog was posted only due to the above mentioned reasons, not due to in spite of the reasons.

Since I was the one who posted the blog, I am more than happy to be a ' filtered idiot'! I take that as a compliment.Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear Raghy,

Thanks for posting the link to JMO's article.

This particular portion below describes the situation quite well.

ஒரு பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதி வெறியரின் மனநிலை மிகமிக ஆச்சரியமளிப்பது. அவர் பிராமணரை வெறுக்கிறார். காரணம், அவர்கள் தமிழர்களை சாதியால் பிரித்து ஆண்டார்கள் என்கிறார். ஆனால் அவர் தன் சாதியை விட்டுக்கொடுக்க மாட்டார். சாதியின் அடிப்படையில் தலித்துக்களை வெறுப்பார், முன்னேற விட மாட்டார். தலித்துக்கள் தன்னுடைய சாதிவெறியை பொருட்படுத்தக்கூடாதென்று ஒரு பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதிவெறியர் நினைக்கிறார். சாதியை கற்பித்தவர்கள் பிராமணர்கள் என்றும் ஆகவே தன்னுடைய சாதிவெறிக்காக தலித்துக்கள் பிராமணரை வெறுக்கவேண்டும் என்றும் அவர் கோருகிறார்

அதாவது திராவிட இயக்கக் கொள்கையின்படி தருமபுரியில் தலித்துக்களை தாக்கிய வன்னியர்களை தலித்துக்கள் குற்றம் சொல்லக்கூடாது. அவர்களை சாதிகளாக பிரித்த பிராமணர்களைத்தான் வெறுக்கவேண்டும். வன்னியர்கள் தங்கள் சாதியை பிராமணர்கள் சொன்னாலும் விடமாட்டார்கள். ஆனால் தலித்துக்கள் பிராமண எதிர்ப்பில் வன்னியர்களுடன் கைகோர்க்கவேண்டும்.

I think What Jeyamohan wrote about the NB castes applies perfectly well to the Brahmin bashers of this forum as well. They give out the same explanations to pin the blame on Brahmins thereby protecting the NB castes. These people exhibit the worst type of jathi veri that they pretend to oppose.

 

[renuka]

Dear Raghy,

Thanks for posting the link to JMO's article.

This particular portion below describes the situation quite well.



I think What Jeyamohan wrote about the NB castes applies perfectly well to the Brahmin bashers of this forum as well. They give out the same explanations to pin the blame on Brahmins thereby protecting the NB castes. These people exhibit the worst type of jathi veri that they pretend to oppose.

Dear Kala Bhairavan ji,

After reading what Sangom in a reply post to me..I think I can get a clearer picture now.

I do not think anyone in this thread is a Brahmin Basher without a cause.

You see some members agree with Jeyamohan's attempt to expose the casteist mindset of Vanniyars.

They are opposing Casteism of any kind be it from a Brahmin or any Middle Caste and not Brahmin Bashing.

Frankly speaking even though I am a Vanniyar by birth..I am just waiting for the day I meet a casteist Dalit hating Vanniyar and he/she will get a piece of my mind for their atrocities done to Dalits.

That does not mean I am bashing my own caste/community but just letting them know that they are wrong.

I myself had once left "one slap on your face comment" in a Vanniyar site cos they were acting as if they were Kings and looked down upon Dalits and I let them know that I am also a Vanniyar so that they know how their own caste feels about how they behave.

So you see in my opinion I am no traitor to my community by pointing out their mistakes done to Dalits.

I have read a few Dalit blogs and also write there from time to time..Dalit blogs somehow never spew hatred but actually crying out for acceptance.

Note :I usually do not identify with caste but in this post I mentioned caste to actually denote that one need not stand by the actions of one's own caste and try to justify atrocities out of caste pride if the action is not within modern day Law.