வெட்டிப்பேச்சு

[Nara]

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வெட்டிப்பேச்சு

The caste name "Brahmin" is part of the name of this web site. So, people who congregate here are ones who have some interest in this identity. Some people are very strongly attached to this identity; they want the Brahmin caste to thrive; make more Brahmin babies some have suggested; some want to import Brahmin brides from north to make up for the lose of TB girls to NB. People have expressed strong objections to diluting Brahmin caste identity and regularly express dismay at the callous attitude of youngsters, particularly young girls, going for icm thus thinning the ranks of Brahmins.

Some people also make claims that it is undeniable that Brahmanas are infused with satvic guna. Brahmins are intelligent, Brahmins are honest, Brahmins are peace loving. All this is a little too much for some who are uncomfortable with the self serving nature of such dubious claims, and they demur, well anyone can be "brahmin" if they have all these great satvic gunas. But, others, who fear contradicting great Acharyas, admit birth cannot be thrown out of the equation.

There is lot of differences in views and opinion. In this environment, is it any wonder that this topic keeps coming back alive, again and again? Some new member or another, make statements about "true" nature of Brahmin and off we go, in another round. Then, sooner or later someone comes in and sagely declare, all this is வெட்டிப்பேச்சு.

Well, may be it is வெட்டிப்பேச்சு, and if you are one who thinks this way, then what follows is not for you. If you read further, please do not complain what a huge waste of time this is.

Bye!!


Those with more time on hand ......

I for one think that caste is one of the most important social issues facing Indian society. Discussions like these make all of us think and that, in and of itself, is a good thing. Sooner or later, everyone will face a situation that will have caste issue of some sort right at its center. How will you respond, how will you handle the situation? It is better to talk about it than put our heads in the sand.

To fully understand and appreciate the nuances of this issue, one has to remove oneself from his/her Brahmin identity and think. You can go back into your Brahmin identity later, but for a few moments, think of yourself as just a human being suddenly emerging out of thin air at various points of history and each time you are allowed the liberty to choose a particular varna. What would be your choice and why? There is no need to respond to this query, just find the answer for yourself, for nobody else -- and while you are at it, add gender also in your choice, i.e. what gender would you choose?

It is claimed that all the (caste?) problems we face today is because Brahmins have abandoned their svadharma (and women are taking up professional jobs!). First, note that this statement implicitly concedes Brahmins are born. Leaving that aside, was there a time when they did not abandon their svadarma? Did Parasurama and Dronachariyar not take up dharma contrary to their Brahmana varna? Yet they are considered Brahmana! Are they just exceptions, or are they famous examples and for each of them there were thousands of day-to-day working stiff Brahmins who took up other dharmas even in those bygone glorious yugas?

Next, moving into Kali yuga, were there not many Brahmana imperial dynasties in the past? Obviously, these Brahmana kings did not follow their svadarma. In more recent times, it was Brahmanas who joined the British civil service in droves and took up servitude as their profession.

So, it seems to me, that, the notion there was a time when Brahmanas strictly followed their svadarma is just fantasy.

Some are quite agitated when Brahminism is faulted for Varna/Jati system. Look at the Upanishad, they say, does it not say all jeevas are equal. (Well, Madwas don't think so, but let it be.) But, that is religious dogma, who knows whether there is indeed a jeeva or not. All jeevas are equal in a theoretical sense gives little comfort to the Dalit, to whom Brahminism says you are a panchama because of poorva janma karma and if you behave yourself in this life, you may be able to climb out of that varna in your next birth. All suffering is in this life - the only reality we can be sure of - and the promised benefits if any are to come after death. Who knows what is on the other side of death, if anything.

The only stark reality of Brahminism to a Shudra/pancama is, his innate guna is sloth and ignorance and his raison d'etre is to serve the other three varnas.

Then there is this protest -- some Brahmins fought against caste system and that should be recognized. Yes, the contributions of these individuals to a more just society must be appreciated, but there is no credit due to Brahmins or Brahminism. When someone criticizes caste identity and supremacy, he is acting against the caste system to which Brahmin identity belongs. To criticize caste and then claim credit for it along caste lines is absurd. Naicker caste cannot claim any credit for EVR's fight against casteism, and similarly, Brahmin caste cannot claim any credit for Bharathiyar's fight against casteism.

Some people here love to talk about DK, DMK and their cohorts and feel good about dissing them. These parties richly deserve derision -- IMO, for losing their revolutionary spirit. But, what good does it do? Think about it, what good that is going to be? The issue is not whether DK/DMK are good or bad, why should you care, they don't. Brahmins saying oh these caste-NBs are so terrible, they massacre Dalits may make some here feel good about themselves. But, a Brahmin is a common foe for them all, Brahmins themselves have made this B/NB divide possible. There is Brahmin on one side, and all the rest are NB. DK or DMK did not do this, it is Brahmins who did this. Brahmins themselves unthinkingly practiced this binary separation. When DK/DMK pointed this out it immediately resonated among all NBs. If you are of certain age from Tamil Nadu, then you know this is true. Take a few moments and think why?

If Brahmins find a way out of the Varna/Jati ditch, they will be the primary beneficiaries. This may even inspire other groups to abandon this scourge and so much the better.

Victor Frankenstein did not take comfort in the fact it was not he who was committing all the murders. Victor felt remorse for creating the monster and devoted the rest of his life to destroying the monster. As Brahmins, think of what your responsibility is for the monster Brahminism has created. This can be done whether or not Caste-NBs are monsters.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

How long you keep harping on the injustice done in the past. You rarely see any such indiscrimination being practiced. If you see them in the rural areas, it has more to do with its nature and setting than to the fact that the minds of the people are closed. Imaginary issues like brahmin discrimination if repeatedly gets flogged only has the potential of creating a bias in the impressionable minds.

I request you Shri Nara not to give it the attention which it does not require as the past mistakes are only a thing of the past. There are real and current issues like corruption, violence, etc that needs our attention instead.

 

[Nara]

...I request you Shri Nara not to give it the attention which it does not require as the past mistakes are only a thing of the past.

sravna, this is not about past, it is about the future. I really hope I am able to connect with the impressionable minds you are referring to, for them to find freedom from retrograde ideology.

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

You are trying to see a problem when there is none.The young minds are already free of the ideology you are talking about. They only need to be shown how our scriptures can positively influence them.

 

[CLN]

Dear Shri Sravana and Shri Nara,

It is definitely true that the practice of discrimination by Tamil brahmins of non-brahmins is no more seen explicitly, as it was done, say, even some 50 years ago. I have vivid memories of the so-called sudras and panchamas standing with folded hands and towels tucked under their armpits in my childhood times. Such scenes are not available for any one to witness, except perhaps in the dens of political dadas today! EVR, DK, DMK etc. might have had some thing to do for the change to some extent in the early stages, but increased western influence, lure of the lucre, technological breakthroughs creating novel job opportunities both in India and abroad and other causes have been there for the apparent changes. Naturally, boys and girls born in brahmin families in eighties and later, not getting exposed to the type of atmosphere that prevailed earlier, do not overtly feel or show any discrimination. But, the belief that brahmins are superior to others has been and is still being indoctrinated in the minds of young minds in the majority of the househods, because those brahmins who are now in their middle age and old age know only too well in their minds what they commanded and what they have lost. Esceptions may definitely be there but they are only exceptions and so I request the reader not to take cudgels against me for exposing out this innate sense of loss prevalent predominantly among brahmins even today.

So, I am not all that sure that discrimination has really vanished from the minds of brahmins, in general. There is a palpable resuscitation happening among brahmins today in the name of awakening them to their glorious past. If it really serves the purpose of throwing light on our sacred scriptures and making our children realise how the knowledge and practice of the good things found in those ancient scriptures will benefit the entire society without any discrimination, it is certainly a welcome thing. But, is there any guarantee that it is only this really happening?

Sadly, evil practices are found to be truly casteless and secular, because we find corruption, bribery, nepotism, cheating, dishonesty and a host of other vices rampant among all sections, castes, communities and religions. So, what we should really have to strive for in the modern context is not just the revival of our past glory in the name of these worn-out classifications, but one of recognizing and encouraging tolerance, fellowship, comaraderie, helpfulness and other noble qualities - wherever they are and whover possesses them.

Am I wrong?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri CLN,

It seems to me that you are making an unfair assertion about feeling of superiority among older generation brahmins. For example my father never talked about anything as lost because of caste reforms, and neither did my grandfather or any other old generation brahmins I am acquainted with. If at all anything it is that feeling of self confidence which you find commonly among brahmins, and which I hope would not be considered as having been gained by oppression of other castes, that may be mistaken for superiority.

I too wholeheartedly affirm that noble qualities are not just found among brahmins by birth but spread across communities.

 

[sangom]

Shri Nara, CLN,

Your posts really point out most of the aspects of brahmins (tamil brahmins in our context, but true, to varying degrees in respect of other brahmins also) and the feeling of brahmin exclusivity. I would like to add that this unwillingness to be rid of the 'brahminist' feeling has something to do also with the religious beliefs of the mind. Because our religious beliefs are also inextricably linked to the notion of castes, at every step, a person gets a feeling that he/she is doing a certain rite or prayer because he is lucky to do that as he/she is a brahmin. Take, say, the tarpanam; only brahmins do it so often; take "aavani avittam", again only brahmins do it, of course "upanayanam" today is only for brahmins though historically, the two higher castes might have done that. The list can go on and on, till we come to the special cremation grounds for brahmins!

This "exalted position" like the privileged "box-office" (best-seated) views in cinema halls, also contribute to the brahmins' feeling of exclusivity and superiority, may not be in regard to mundane affairs, but definitely in the religious realm. I think this can vanish only if all castes are allowed the freedom to adopt brahmin practices (if they so desire) in regard to the various "samskaaras". Will there be any initiative from any quarter in this matter? I don't know.

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri Nara, CLN,

Your posts really point out most of the aspects of brahmins (tamil brahmins in our context, but true, to varying degrees in respect of other brahmins also) and the feeling of brahmin exclusivity. I would like to add that this unwillingness to be rid of the 'brahminist' feeling has something to do also with the religious beliefs of the mind. ...........

sangom,

it could also be 'inability' to be rid of the 'brahminist' feeling has something to do also with the religious beliefs of the mind.

recently, one of my relations went madi, and this freewheeling meat eating boozing gentleman has adopted the most archaic of rules.

among his newly adopted rituals, apparently he reads purushasuktham every day, as per his proud wife and sons. i am a bit hesitant whether to query this gentleman about the inherent racism and casteist embeds inside purushasutham.

however, next visit to chennai is going to be an event alright.. apparently, even though this guy is only is in his late 60s, the near and dear, have started to treat him like a 'saint' - with full namaskaarams whenever they visit him.

knowing myself, i will not bide by this.. probably going to a lot of goodwill and some relationship on the stride

 

[CLN]

Dear Mr. sravna,

I feel that you have a right to feel proud that your father, grandfather and other acquaintances did not feel any 'loss' at the caste reforms that have been taking place. But that cannot vouch for every one, or, even the majority of brahmins, can it?

When I mentioned "I am not all that sure that discrimination has really vanished from the minds of brahmins, in general", I have done so only on the basis of my personal observations around me among my friends relatives and acquaintances in large number. But I am still NOT prejudiced and not blind to the fact that there are and could be exceptions. It is for this very reason I also made another statement "Exceptions may definitely be there but they are only exceptions and so I request the reader not to take cudgels against me for exposing out this innate sense of loss".

I do appreciate your assertion finally "I too wholeheartedly affirm that noble qualities are not just found among brahmins by birth but spread across communities".

 

[sravna]

Dear Mr. sravna,

I feel that you have a right to feel proud that your father, grandfather and other acquaintances did not feel any 'loss' at the caste reforms that have been taking place. But that cannot vouch for every one, or, even the majority of brahmins, can it?

When I mentioned "I am not all that sure that discrimination has really vanished from the minds of brahmins, in general", I have done so only on the basis of my personal observations around me among my friends relatives and acquaintances in large number. But I am still NOT prejudiced and not blind to the fact that there are and could be exceptions. It is for this very reason I also made another statement "Exceptions may definitely be there but they are only exceptions and so I request the reader not to take cudgels against me for exposing out this innate sense of loss".

I do appreciate your assertion finally "I too wholeheartedly affirm that noble qualities are not just found among brahmins by birth but spread across communities".

Dear Shri CLN,

Both of us are relying on our personal observations to make our point. So which one is the exception? If the change is even partly happening it should be encouraged and be allowed some time for it to complete. Till then we need some patience and in our zealousness not overdo it to the extent of distancing ourselves from our own culture. Please note that the last remark is not directed towards anyone but is a general one.

 

[CLN]

Okay, Mr. Sravna,

I have no objection at all. It is neither a personal matter to you nor to me. Let others also make their own observations (i.e., comments) born out of their own 'observations'. Please note that all knowledge comes to mortals only through 'observations' which, in a larger sense, refers to all information gained through all senses - the elusive sixth sense included!

 

[saidevo]

namaste eveyone.

Nara's narration in the OP, about how the brahmin identity and his svadharma has in the past moved up and down the varNa ladder, as seen from the examples of DroNAchArya, ParashurAma and the brAhmaNa kings, and hence, the statement that brahmins in the past did not abandon their svadharma is wrong, has a glaring omission: the Vedas.

Foremost among the karmas related to a brahmin's svadharma is his responsibility towards Vedas. Four of a brahmin's aRutozhil--six duties, relate to them--chanting and getting the vedas chanted; performing veda yajnas and getting them performed. Brahmins have been doing these four veda-karmas impeccably since the time the Vedas were relevealed to mankind in the bhArata varSha.

In the past, dharma shAstras entrusted a King with the responsibility to ensure that the people of four varNas were at their svadharma by and large. The King had the power to cast a man out of his varNa of birth, or otherwise suitably punish him, if he abandoned his svardharma.

Says the DharmavyAdha:

"rAjA prashAsti dharmENa svakarma niratAh prajAh
vikarmANascha yE kEchitta anyunakti svakarmasu"

--The king dutifully protects the people engaged in their sva-karma (prescribed per birth in a varNa-discussed in the commentary at the end); It is also the king's duty to punish anyone abandoning sva-karma and navigate them towards their sva-karma.

(https://www.esnips.com/doc/22ef8428-8e1e-4501-994e-c6b4fe240c11/Dharmavyadha)

TiruvaLLuvar also mentions it in his kuRaL:

Apayan kunRum aRutozhilOr nUlmaRappar
kAvalan kAvAn enin -- kuRaL 560

In the case of DroNAchArya, teaching the Vedas, vedAngas and the upa-vedas were part of his svadharma, especially as an obligation to the royal family, so he did it. Of course, he participated and gave his life in the mahAbhArata war, when the situation was inevitable. The brahmin kings too, like kings of other varNas did, kept at the brahmins' basic svadharma related to the Vedas. ParashurAma was an avatar, so there is no question about him.

The point is that, in the past, although some brahmins took to professions of other varNas, it was ensured that there were always enough number of them to keep the Vedas and veda yajnas/karmas going.

In fact, in the days of monarchy of the past, people of all the three leading varNas ensured that brahmins nourished the Vedas at all times, since they had a strong belief in the efficacy of the Vedas, veda yajnas and other veda karma. Even during the times of British rule in India, the rulers never interfered with the dharmic setup of only brahmins being allowed to practice the Vedas.

What is the situation obtaining today in the name of secular democracy?

Today's politicians and bureaucrats who rule this holy land, would sell their mother and motherland for money and kill their father for power, a culture which is unknown in Hindu Dharma. They don't believe in the Vedas and the Hindu Dharma, so they would do anything in their power to connive for their destruction. Their entire propaganda against the brahmins is only with this hidden agenda.

Thus, today it is the duty of brahmins who take to other professions to ensure that enough number of them remain to take care of the study, teaching and practice of the Vedas.

 

[Nara]

....You are trying to see a problem when there is none.The young minds are already free of the ideology you are talking about. They only need to be shown how our scriptures can positively influence them.

sravna, I am sure you have heard of the adage, "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". To march towards a bright future we must pave the road with unbiased and accurate understanding of the past. IMO, we will fail in our duty to guide the youngsters if we simply feed them religious doctrine, but ignore what the theory of reincarnation, karma, varna, etc., has wrought.

....I too wholeheartedly affirm that noble qualities are not just found among brahmins by birth but spread across communities.

This is a good start. Noble qualities and base ones can be found in roughly the same proportion among all groups of people. Varna has no role in it. The secular world does not see varna.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....TiruvaLLuvar also mentions it in his kuRaL:

Apayan kunRum aRutozhilOr nUlmaRappar
kAvalan kAvAn enin -- kuRaL 560

Saidevo, what Thiruvalluvar had in mind with this kural has already been discussed. Let us leave it at that.

Thus, today it is the duty of brahmins who take to other professions to ensure that enough number of them remain to take care of the study, teaching and practice of the Vedas.

Then what is the problem, why lament the current problems are all due to Brahmins abandoning svadharma (and women taking up professional jobs)? In what way all those people in the past starting from Parasurama to droves of Brahmins serving their British masters in more recent past, did anything different? What is different now, or then, in the glorious old days?

Anyway, I am not sure whether I understand the argument. Are you saying that a Brahmin can take up the svadharma of some other varna, just as long as they follow Brahmin svadharma also? Can a Brahmin follow the Svadharma of a Shudra just as long as he also follows Brahmin svadharma? Is this even possible?

Perhaps what you were saying is a Brahmin can abandon his svadharma just as long as he supports Vedic study by others. I doubt whether Sankarachariyar would agree with this. Then, the problem is not Brahmins abandoning svadharma, the problem is Brahmins not supporting Vedic study.

Finally, it is most certainly not true that Vedas are not supported by the present day secular political power. Every year GOI honors Vedic scholars, I am personally acquainted with several such SV presidential award recipients. GOI provides state funds to Vedic school, the school run by Sri Ahobila Matam in Maduranthakam receives GOI funding. GOI also offers tax free 80G status to trusts that support vedic study. Finally, the growth in Indian population has also swelled the ranks of Brahmins, and because of this, I think (not sure though) there are numerically more people in Vedic schools than anytime in the past. So, Vedic study has certainly not fallen by the wayside.

In summary then, this abandoning of svadharma argument for the present day (caste) problems has no merit.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

sangom,

it could also be 'inability' to be rid of the 'brahminist' feeling has something to do also with the religious beliefs of the mind.

recently, one of my relations went madi, and this freewheeling meat eating boozing gentleman has adopted the most archaic of rules.

among his newly adopted rituals, apparently he reads purushasuktham every day, as per his proud wife and sons. i am a bit hesitant whether to query this gentleman about the inherent racism and casteist embeds inside purushasutham.

however, next visit to chennai is going to be an event alright.. apparently, even though this guy is only is in his late 60s, the near and dear, have started to treat him like a 'saint' - with full namaskaarams whenever they visit him.

knowing myself, i will not bide by this.. probably going to a lot of goodwill and some relationship on the stride

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

When I saw your mention of this very same distant cousin of yours, in some other thread, I wanted to share with you some observations of mine too. I have a distant cousin too, more or less in the same mold. He was in business and has made good financial progress. But as a businessman he has had to cut corners, bribe all the way and do many such "adhaarmic" things to support his large family (5 kids). Now he has closed the business and turned into a full-fledged bhagavata, i.e., one who reposes his faith entirely in Srimadbhagavata and Krishna. He has a guru, somewhat of the second line of publicity and he does not so much believe in aachaaram, madi, the rituals, etc., only bhakti. So far so good, but the problem is, you just about mention anything under the sun - from salt to camphor, as they say in Malayalam - and he goes, "athu thaan bhaagavathatthile bhagavaan solliyirukkaare..." or some such refrain!!

There are others also, in my knowledge, who take to religion, bhakti, etc., as old age/post-retirement interests but, by and large, in Trivandrum, I don't find that much of a mental fixation with "madi". That I feel is a good augury.

 

[mraghavan]

RE: the Brahmin Monster

I think it would be helpful and stepped out of our personal corners and looked at things objectively. If we remove ourselves from our birthrights, we can probably recognize that Brahminism is a culture, a path to some, an identity to others. It is akin to being Jewish, one can choose to adhere to it, follow it some extent, or simply identify with it as their heritage.

As a student of anthropology, I can tell with certainty that every culture/religion has good and bad elements. The Catholic Church is a tremendous source of solace and identity to nearly 1 billion people, but it cannot deny its ignoring the Holocaust, or causing the horrific wars of the Crusades. Culture is an evolving process, and evolution generally brings improvement.

Let us not forget that it was a Brahmin, Ramanuja, who first allowed pariahs (thirukkulathaars) to enter the temples. And it was Adi Sankara, a devout Brahmin, who first suggested that all beings are truly One.

Let us take pride in Brahminism as an ethnic culture and identity. But, in seeing it in this way, let us see others, including the NBs, for their unique cultural contributions, too. Periyar was certainly way off base with his anti-religion and anti-Brahmin sentiments. But, his humanistic ideals were certainly ones that we all could agree with to some extent or the other.

Our food, our language, our commitment to ethics and spiritualism, all these are things that makes calling ourselves Brahmin worthwhile. Let us make sure we never bring back what caused the world so much pain.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I refer to the comments made in post no:-6 by Shri.Sravana and like to say, that elders in the house generally do not discuss such matters openly in the presence of youngsters in the house, but share their thoughts and opinions with same age group people.In their heart of heart they do nourish such feelings.

 

[sangom]

I think it would be helpful and stepped out of our personal corners and looked at things objectively. If we remove ourselves from our birthrights, we can probably recognize that Brahminism is a culture, a path to some, an identity to others. It is akin to being Jewish, one can choose to adhere to it, follow it some extent, or simply identify with it as their heritage.

As a student of anthropology, I can tell with certainty that every culture/religion has good and bad elements. The Catholic Church is a tremendous source of solace and identity to nearly 1 billion people, but it cannot deny its ignoring the Holocaust, or causing the horrific wars of the Crusades. Culture is an evolving process, and evolution generally brings improvement.

Let us not forget that it was a Brahmin, Ramanuja, who first allowed pariahs (thirukkulathaars) to enter the temples. And it was Adi Sankara, a devout Brahmin, who first suggested that all beings are truly One.

Let us take pride in Brahminism as an ethnic culture and identity. But, in seeing it in this way, let us see others, including the NBs, for their unique cultural contributions, too. Periyar was certainly way off base with his anti-religion and anti-Brahmin sentiments. But, his humanistic ideals were certainly ones that we all could agree with to some extent or the other.

Our food, our language, our commitment to ethics and spiritualism, all these are things that makes calling ourselves Brahmin worthwhile. Let us make sure we never bring back what caused the world so much pain.

Shri Raghavan,

Comparing brahmins (a caste sub-group within the larger "hindu" fold) with Jews, a religious group consisting of, may be sub-classifications (I do not know), is flawed. I f you were to compare the Jewish identity with hindu-feeling and pride, I would readily say yes. By your proposal, you are, unknowingly perhaps, emphasizing the exclusivity or separateness of "brahminism" from the larger hindu identity. That, of course, is exactly what I would say the major drawback of brahmins' notion about themselves is.

 

[CLN]

Perhaps what you were saying is a Brahmin can abandon his svadharma just as long as he supports Vedic study by others. I doubt whether Sankarachariyar would agree with this. Then, the problem is not Brahmins abandoning svadharma, the problem is Brahmins not supporting Vedic study.

Further to what Mr. Nara has pointed out, a peculiar phenomenon is growing stronger by day. Perhaps, falling victim to a sort of guilt-consciousness, obviously born out of an internal conflict arising out of 'superiority-inferiority' complex, felt inescapably as a result of not adhering to the svadharma prescribed for brahmins in the scriptures and other treatises, the tendency to liberally donate to veda pathasalas, conduct of yagnas, chandi homas etc. is on the increase, among affluent brahmins whose lifestyles include to varying degrees all sorts of habits and activities which are generally classified as 'sins' (I hope I do not have to spell them out explicitly).

Should we feel happy at this pouring in of financial support for 'brahminic procedures' from 'brahmins by birth', who are not 'brahmins by practice'? Can we invoke the saying, "Naay viththa kaasu kuraikkaadhu?" and feel satisfied?

My point is: this type of controversy itself originates only from the 'brahmin is superior' fixation and the inescapable 'sense of guilt' that is concomitant in most cases. Can't we try to grow out of this fixation and develop a healthy mental attitude, that we, like anybody else, should strive towards virtuous living, taking all the help needed from our holy scriptures only for adopting virtuous practices, but discarding the discriminatory utterings, in tune with reality today?

 

[sangom]

Perhaps what you were saying is a Brahmin can abandon his svadharma just as long as he supports Vedic study by others. I doubt whether Sankarachariyar would agree with this. Then, the problem is not Brahmins abandoning svadharma, the problem is Brahmins not supporting Vedic study.

Further to what Mr. Nara has pointed out, a peculiar phenomenon is growing stronger by day. Perhaps, falling victim to a sort of guilt-consciousness, obviously born out of an internal conflict arising out of 'superiority-inferiority' complex, felt inescapably as a result of not adhering to the svadharma prescribed for brahmins in the scriptures and other treatises, the tendency to liberally donate to veda pathasalas, conduct of yagnas, chandi homas etc. is on the increase, among affluent brahmins whose lifestyles include to varying degrees all sorts of habits and activities which are generally classified as 'sins' (I hope I do not have to spell them out explicitly).

Should we feel happy at this pouring in of financial support for 'brahminic procedures' from 'brahmins by birth', who are not 'brahmins by practice'? Can we invoke the saying, "Naay viththa kaasu kuraikkaadhu?" and feel satisfied?

My point is: this type of controversy itself originates only from the 'brahmin is superior' fixation and the inescapable 'sense of guilt' that is concomitant in most cases. Can't we try to grow out of this fixation and develop a healthy mental attitude, that we, like anybody else, should strive towards virtuous living, taking all the help needed from our holy scriptures only for adopting virtuous practices, but discarding the discriminatory utterings, in tune with reality today?

Shri CLN,

I agree with you in that now there is a new-found enthusiasm, vigour as well as willingness to finance the myriad types of "holy" activities - I cannot list them because it will be pretty boring. But I may say with a good amount of ceratinty that the real "big guns" are not impelled by any guilt feelings but by the adage "catch a big fish by throwing a small one (as bait)". When these people pour finance (as sometimes we are led to believe) they also ensure returns to themselves in more than one material way, like, "you scratch my back and I will scratch yours" from some other parties, side contracts to their own firms and/or people in whom they are interested, and last but not least, name and recognition as a "very religious and devout person".

It may only be the hoi polloi who may be giving money driven by guilt feelings; here also, what I observe is that as a result of the sudden surge in the economic standards of many tabras, they make a grand shopping spree, the commodity purchased and stocked for future use being "puNyam". Again, guilt feeling is not the driving force in most cases.

It is in this milieu that our neo-gurus have found fertile soil to take roots, grow, branch out and go "forin".

Even if some mutt announces a stipend for learning sanskrit and scriptures I am sure not many tabras will be interested because what is marketed as 100 percent pure indigenous hinduism today has very little to do with vedas, upanishads, etc., but only with bhagavatam, bhakti, narayaneeyam, etc. Only "lip service" is paid to the old scriptures. And there is hardly any "braahmanan" now, only notional brahmins who can aptly be called "brahmabandhutama" persons. If this make-believe world is shown in its true form, the faith of many will be shattered.

 

[CLN]

Dear Mr. Sangom,

Although it startles one to read in black and white what you have put down bluntly (and very sharply too!), the ring of truth in it cannot be denied. Hmmm... what a pity!

There is just another thing. You have mentioned about the shift nowadays towards Bhagavatham, Bhakthi, Narayaneeyam etc. in preference to the actual scriptures. I have heard Pravachanakartas of great repute saying that in view of the difficulty to maintain the standards prescribed in scriptures, in Kaliyuga, bhakthimarga through namasankeerthanams, bhajans, theerthayaatras and the like, which do not require the same rigour of aacharam as Vedapathanam etc. Many people do find solace in this advice and honestly try to practise the comparatively easier modes of expressing their bhakthi.

 

[sangom]

Dear Mr. Sangom,

Although it startles one to read in black and white what you have put down bluntly (and very sharply too!), the ring of truth in it cannot be denied. Hmmm... what a pity!

There is just another thing. You have mentioned about the shift nowadays towards Bhagavatham, Bhakthi, Narayaneeyam etc. in preference to the actual scriptures. I have heard Pravachanakartas of great repute saying that in view of the difficulty to maintain the standards prescribed in scriptures, in Kaliyuga, bhakthimarga through namasankeerthanams, bhajans, theerthayaatras and the like, which do not require the same rigour of aacharam as Vedapathanam etc. Many people do find solace in this advice and honestly try to practise the comparatively easier modes of expressing their bhakthi.

Shri CLN,

My own assessment is that even very few of the pravacanakartas are well-grounded in the vedas, brahmanas, and other scriptures which require knowledge of not only sanskrit but the archaic one used in some of the commentaries too. They just rehearse their quotations and slokas and insert these to the fullest effect. That is their intelligence! And some of them pretend to be "more pious than god", so to say, and insist that they will in personal meetings entertain only those brahmins who come in 'pancakaccham' and women in 9 yds. pudavai!!

The truth is we brahmins have virtually discarded the old hinduism - roughly all that before Bhagavadgita, Bhagavatam, etc. You know Adisankara does not refer to Bhagavatam at all, anywhere in his prodigious and voluminous output. This will mean either that the book was a post-Sankara concoction to make the Krishna cult popular, or, in Sankara's time it did not rank anywhere as an important text to be cited.

While I have no comments on people following any of the religious pursuits, the notion that vedas are eternal, of supra-human origin, contain great and invaluable mystic truths much beyond human comprehension, etc., etc., just makes me laugh; if I don't laugh I will cry (as someone said in this forumitself, I feel.).

 

[sravna]

There is a notion called entanglement in quantum mechanics which says that particles can be linked together permanently however apart they may be in space, one being always a copy of the other. Any change in the state of one is instantaneously reflected in the other. It has been experimentally verified and is fact being used as the basis for develping teleportation technology. Again there is no explanation by science for that phenomenon.

Instantaneous communication in my view can imply only one possibility, which is, the space between the particles is non-existent. Space and all that we physically experience is just a perception. Similar conclusion can be made wrt time.

Non existent space would mean all the energy/mass are connected in other ways, shall we say spiritually?

 

[ShivKC]

If Brahmins find a way out of the Varna/Jati ditch, they will be the primary beneficiaries. This may even inspire other groups to abandon this scourge and so much the better.

Needs an explanation here..

1) beneficiaries, esp, Primary beneficiaries? why there is a word Primary again?
2) will there be any monitory benefits? and how?

 

[sangom]

There is a notion called entanglement in quantum mechanics which says that particles can be linked together permanently however apart they may be in space, one being always a copy of the other. Any change in the state of one is instantaneously reflected in the other. It has been experimentally verified and is fact being used as the basis for develping teleportation technology. Again there is no explanation by science for that phenomenon.

Instantaneous communication in my view can imply only one possibility, which is, the space between the particles is non-existent. Space and all that we physically experience is just a perception. Similar conclusion can be made wrt time.

Non existent space would mean all the energy/mass are connected in other ways, shall we say spiritually?

Shri Sravna,

My knowledge of quantum physics is nil. So I am asking just a doubt.

If the space between the two particles is non-existent, are the particles themselves existent?

I just googled and found the following:
1 2

It looks as if the "no-space" extends, as of today, to a maximum of 16 kms only; beyond that space exists well and happy! Secondly, it is not as if two particles are inherently always copy of each other; the quantum information about the (quantum) state has to be "teleported" using conventional means like optical fibre. So, I think either your understanding is lacking or you are giving here selective extracts to underscore your pov.