வெட்டிப்பேச்சு

[suraju06]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Happyhindu,


//Does this mean that economic status has nothing to do with caste; and if a man belongs to a particular 'low' caste he will still be labelled / treated badly just because of his caste, even if he is rich?//

Yes.Leaving the cities and metros in Tamilnadu that is very much the situation. Money does not bring with it the respect and equality. In metros and cities it is different because of the anonymity enjoyed by individuals and families.

//Shri Raju, it is unfortunately true that labour laws of the dharmashastra kind is called brahmanism (kindly note no one is against brahmanism of the brahmanical culture, its only the birth-based caste divisions that people are against).//

Where from did you get this term Brahminism? The source please. If we are against birth-based caste divisions then in that we should include every one in the society because birth based discrimination is practiced by every caste not only Brahmins. You cannot say that brahminism according to you only has this kind of discrimination. What about all other isms? Mudaliyarism, chettiyarism, thevarism etc also has these discriminations.


//It is also unfortunately true that thru the pages of history brahmanism was kept alive by brahmins mainly, and followed next by the self-appointed kshatriyas and vaishyas.//

You can only say casteism was kept alive. Not brahminism. I object to that. Once you say brahminism it is DK’s language-paarpaneeyam. I believe it is sheer non-sense to call casteism by the name brahminism. Excuse me no offence meant for you.


//In the years immediately before india's independence, brahmins did have a choice to make things non-birth based. They could have ushered in an egalitarian hindu society with the dawn of indian independence. Unfortunately that did not happen.//

I don’t agree with you. Brahmins did try to bring that like the Americans did it after the civil rights movement in their country. They created a separate schedule to the constitution of India and listed in it all the panchamans of India by various caste names and gave them special concessions and privileges to bring them on a par with the other chatur varnas ( they were called Scheduled castes and Tribes). You may remember that the Indian Constituent assembly and the drafting committee had all prominent Brahmins of that time and included Dr. Ambedkar a dalit also in it. But later when adult franchise came in vogue the majority dominant castes of India, because of their numerical strength hijacked the parliament and the constitution and included the tormentors of the panchamans as ‘backward castes’ and gave them in the constitution privileges. They were so much casteist in their outlook that they did not even bother to add themselves to the list of the earlier schedule of constitution. But created a separate section for themselves. Perhaps they did not want the world to see them in the company of panchamans even in the schedule to the constitution of India!!

//On the contrary brahmins were keen to keep everyone down the varna ladder while they themselves enjoyed the fruits of employment in the colonial government.//

Are you talking about the colonial period or the post colonial period? In the colonial period it was Britishers who employed and not the people of India.

// Today with modernization no one remembers all that.//

No. Politicians and pseudo intellectuals never for a moment allow castes to be forgotten. If they do, they will all lose their jobs and the avenue for pastime.

//But even today the orthodoxy keeps birth-based segregations alive. Please can you tell me what purpose does that serve?//

Why do you worry so much about the small number of orthodoxy in the fringes of the society. In America we do have KKK/Skinheads and the whites do not consider them as representing the views of the society or bother about them and waste their time.


//Unfortunately Shri Raju, the dharmashastras do characterise.//

Again Dharmashastras and Brahmins are equated. Why?

// It does not matter what punjabis, tamilians, etc think of each other. We are not talking about "opinions" of people. We are talking about something that has been followed by hindus socially since a datable historic past.//

Yes by the hindu society as a whole. I appreciate that candid statement.

// I too feel that social and religious changes must start with orthodoxy; and over time the changes will definitely percolate to all levels and change the society at large for the better.//

Please read a few line above again where I have written about the people in the fringe.

//Shri Raju, if we were to carefully examine indian history, it is true that dvijas who claimed to be brahmins or brahmakshatriyas were responsible for social structures. Casteist practices resulted from such social structures. This is not a blame game. It is merely a historic fact. I fully agree with you that everyone who practices casteism today should take full responsibilty for their practices.//

Again to square one! After all these arguments? When are we going to put the history behind and move forward?
//Today there are venues for people to learn vedas and vedic chanting. But not in temples as yet. I hope that someday in future the options to learn vedic chanting is available at temples for children across all castes.//

Yes I agree.

// I also hope that the orthodoxy stops promoting birth-based divisions and promotes an egalitarian society based on merit and ability alone//

Why bother about the fringe elements?.

//If today the orthodoxy cares to remove birth-based segregations, a 100 years later no one will bother to talk about all this. Even if they discuss issues of the ancient past or the colonial past, it will not hurt anyone.//

Orthodoxy is so small in number and so much discredited and so badly out of touch with reality that it can never do this. It has to come from the society particularly the leaders of the dominant and powerful castes of the society. They are not likely to give up castes from their agenda bnecause it is their votebank.

Cheers.

 

[CLN]

Mr. Sangom,

Your clarification on 'svadharma' is as masterly as it is bold! You have summed up at the end "I therefore feel that in this situation whatever one does is his saastram and his sampradaayam", which is very similar to what I also believe. But, as I had revealed earlier, I started that thread on "Saastrm vs. Sampradayam' only to know honestly how other people feel / think. Perhaps you and I are kindred souls, but there are many who differ vastly and have neither the guts to face facts nor the grace to tolerate a different view point.

As to your opening remark:"You are pointing to a very crucial and perhaps brahmin-shaking (like earth-shaking) topic here. May be you are a very erudite person successfully hiding your knowledge from this forum; if so, I would like to learn from you", if you are not really laughing at my ignorance and pulling my leg, I wish to clarify that I have no credentials to erudition, at least in things that matter most to these discussions. But I do possess the thirst and curiosity of an eager student, despite my 63 odd years.

If you do not believe me yet, please read another thread I have started on "After Death - What?" under "Rituals, Ceremonies and Pujas" two days ago and decide whether I am an erudite scholar or a curious student. What is somewhat surprising to me is that though I started that thread two days ago and some 64 people have already viewed it, not even one has posted any reply! I do not know whether the three queries I have raised in it were felt too silly to be given any thought by those viewers, or, they did not have any answer to them.

 

[Nara]

Shri Raju, .... Your post has brought out an important point of class difference. The rich always seem to exploit the poor irrespective of caste. It is really shameful to think that such thevars exist even today.

HH, class exploitation started when humans invented agriculture. It exists in all societies. Many societies were able to fight it, like France, Russia, China, etc., and all of them were violent struggles.

But, in India, class intersects with caste making a toxic cocktail. In the villages, not all OBC are equal. The big landowner controls everything. An uppity Dalit is dealt with not by the landowner, but his caste underlings. If one of his caste underlings acts uppity, there are other loyalists to put him in place.

These poor OBCs, the roving hoards of Thevars running after the Dalits, are no less under the thumb of the dominant landlord than the Dalits, only that they can enter the house. If I am to use an American idiom, they are no better than house ni&%#rs (I am masking this word because it is offensive). The poor OBCs are under the same economic thumb as the Dalit peasants.

The poor OBCs would be much better off by aligning with the Dalits and fighting the OBC landlord instead of fighting the Dalits at the bidding of the landlord. But this will never happen, because of the caste superiority nonsense drilled into him from birth. The caste system makes it easy for the class system to thrive and go unchallenged. This is what the Brahminists call village tranquility that caste system offers, everything seems honky dory, another American idiom, on the surface.

Caste consciousness dooms any kind of class struggle from even getting started.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

May be you are a very erudite person successfully hiding your knowledge from this forum; if so, I would like to learn from you"[/I], if you are not really laughing at my ignorance and pulling my leg, I wish to clarify that I have no credentials to erudition, at least in things that matter most to these discussions. But I do possess the thirst and curiosity of an eager student, despite my 63 odd years.

Shri CLN,

I made that statement not in jest but because I inferred, may be unwarrantedly, that perhaps you may be the eldest son referred to in the thread "Who has the right?". So, having been brought up in a house familiar with most aspects of our tabra customs, traditions, etc., you are trying to find out the pulse of the people.

Your questions in the "After death, what?" thread are also very fundamental and require great thinking to answer. The reason why I did not see it is that it does not "show up" in the forum page and normally I expand only the general discussion page and today's posts (search). I shall furnish my comments there, may be tomorrow. People will not answer because by nature and upbringing tabras are content with believing what is told by pravacanakartas, swamijis, gurus, etc., and do not venture to think "out of the box"; the fear of committing an unpardonable sin is also there in most minds. Conformity is our motto.

 

[Nara]

....Americans were also divided into two distinct social groups. There was a wide spread perception that one group was denied its birth rights in the name of racae and colour. King fought for equal rights and Americans quickly passed necessary legislations and took other steps.

Folks, the above betrays a profound ignorance of American history in general and civil rights struggle in particular. First of all, Blacks were denied basic rights is a fact, not perception. This is not a nit pick. The word "perception" is too easy to misunderstand as different from reality.

The struggle for freedom for Blacks started from the very day they were kidnapped and brought to the shores of America. There has been several slave-apprising in which scores of Whites were killed. All of them, of course, ended in brutal suppression. Very recently, a book was released about the largest slave revolt in U.S. soil in 1811, click here for a news item about it.

At the same time, the northern states, while quite racist in many ways, had outlawed slavery and blacks flourished. A black intellectual class developed. There is a rich history of black activism, both militant and intellectual. MLK rose from from this long line of Black movement, from Frederick Douglass to [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]W.E.B Du Bois[/FONT].

It is not as if MLK suddenly came into the scene, asked for justice and the White congress quickly took care of everything -- far from it. The civil rights movement was a long struggle, there were many voices and MLK was one voice, and his was the most powerful voice. For this, he was persecuted by the establishment. He was under constant FBI surveillance. Hoover tried to smear him with all kinds of rumors in an attempt to neutralize his influence. Finally he gave his life in the struggle, when he was not even 40 years old.

LBJ saw the writing on the wall and had the wisdom to get the civil rights legislation passed into law. But, the struggle is ongoing. Blacks still suffer from a variety of discrimination. For all the progress US has made, racism is often just under the surface.

However, the general zeitgeist of American society does not countenance racism anymore, at least the open expression of it. This is the change that is lacking among Brahmins. General attitudes of superiority among Brahmins, and openly touting it as seen in this very forum often, are parts of the Brahmin zeitgeist, which is what all of us need to fight and tame.

BTW, both Ghandhi and MLK were murdered by supremacist thugs motivated by the same kind of supremacist ideology. A nephew of mine, well educated (DAV school), well placed in the U.S. to rack in the dollars by the boat load, and an otherwise nice and respectful fellow, says Ghandhi had it coming and Godse is some sort of a patriot.

 

[CLN]

Shri CLN,

I made that statement not in jest but because I inferred, may be unwarrantedly, that perhaps you may be the eldest son referred to in the thread "Who has the right?". So, having been brought up in a house familiar with most aspects of our tabra customs, traditions, etc., you are trying to find out the pulse of the people.

Your questions in the "After death, what?" thread are also very fundamental and require great thinking to answer. The reason why I did not see it is that it does not "show up" in the forum page and normally I expand only the general discussion page and today's posts (search). I shall furnish my comments there, may be tomorrow. People will not answer because by nature and upbringing tabras are content with believing what is told by pravacanakartas, swamijis, gurus, etc., and do not venture to think "out of the box"; the fear of committing an unpardonable sin is also there in most minds. Conformity is our motto.

Thanks Mr. Sangom. I am really very eager to know your views and others scholars' views too, on the three questions I have raised in "After Death - What?"

As for your "inference", you were right on target! It was not really to hide my identity I cloaked my query in a Vikramaditya-style tale there, but only not to create any impression in the mind of any casual reader that I was a party involved. But for any discerning reader, the truth would have revealed itself - as it happened with you - easily!

As for my first brother, it appears that he has been "advised" by some others not to insist on any thing unpopular and it appears (though I am not all that sure) that he might relent. I also learnt that in some other household with some parallel in the two cases, the rites were performed by the second son even when the first son is available, hale and hearty, with no other serious 'shortcoming' except perhaps a desired familiarity with vedas and shastras. I also understand that this deviation from the norm did create some storm in the circle of those in that profession, but perhaps it eventually whimpered away like a 'storm in the tea cup'!

As for my other brother (the juniormost) he is keeping away from the controversy, I believe.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

They too had the problem of exploitation of blacks. They have accepted that the American society did commit a mistake and as amends have accommodated the blacks in the mainstream with equal rights and some special concessions. They have put the history behind and have moved on. There is no third party seeing an opportunity in the troubled waters to fish and getting the benefits extended to the blacks extended to them also like we have done in our extension of reservation to castes other than dalits. But then it needs honest intellectuals to germinate such ideas and promote them. What we have is......well i do not want to say-I hope you would have got it already. .

Cheers.

Dear Sri Suraju06,

For what the white peoples of Europe (particularly the British, French , Italian, Dutch, Germans and Spaniards) did to the blacks and other aborigines of Americas and Australia, they deserve to be burnt at stake, as it were.

You should understand the deep-seated resentment of the great West Indian cricketer Vivian Richards towards the whites, though personally he is on good terms with many white individuals.

The white people do not perceive any threat either from the blacks and the aborigines (they are all but wiped out) and hence they can talk of liberty, freedom, democracy and all that. The reaction of the whites remains to be seen when they (blacks) gather strength and challenge the whites comprehensively. This dynamics has to be understood.

To draw a parallel with atrocities of the white with the caste injustices is just playing into their hands. Most Indians in Europe and America won't talk much on that for they know which side their bread is buttered.

Also Europe and America also have to keep their reputation of being freedom loving and all that. So they don't mind the harmless dissent of academics like Noam Chomsky and few others.

By the way, Gandhi was not killed because he spoke of equality, but purely because he went on a fast to persuade the Indian government to release Rs.50 Cr. due to Pakistan agreed upon the terms of partition when they were invading J&K. This I vouch as I personally had a chance to speak to Gopal Godse, brother of Nathuram and a co-conspirator.

In the trial held in camera, Nathuram had in fact praised Gandhi for being a mass-leader.

Rgds.,

 

[suraju06]

Mr. Nara's words are in quotes:

But, in India, class intersects with caste making a toxic cocktail. In the villages, not all OBC are equal. The big landowner controls everything. An uppity Dalit is dealt with not by the landowner, but his caste underlings. If one of his caste underlings acts uppity, there are other loyalists to put him in place.
These poor OBCs, the roving hoards of Thevars running after the Dalits, are no less under the thumb of the dominant landlord than the Dalits, only that they can enter the house. If I am to use an American idiom, they are no better than house ni&%#rs (I am masking this word because it is offensive). The poor OBCs are under the same economic thumb as the Dalit peasants.

I am happy that you are now talking good logic. This is what communists in India say. This is exactly what I am also driving at.But then wait wait...... read below...

The poor OBCs would be much better off by aligning with the Dalits and fighting the OBC landlord instead of fighting the Dalits at the bidding of the landlord. But this will never happen, because of the caste superiority nonsense drilled into him from birth. The caste system makes it easy for the class system to thrive and go unchallenged. This is what the Brahminists call village tranquility that caste system offers, everything seems honky dory, another American idiom, on the surface.

How sad. You can never be logic beyond a point. Wherever you go you will get back to square one of "brahminism". I should not have celebrated your returning to logical argument so early.

Caste consciousness dooms any kind of class struggle from even getting started.

I don't know why you stopped at that without icing the cake with something about the pet obsession with 'brahminism'

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Mr. Nara's words are in quotes:

Folks, the above betrays a profound ignorance of American history in general and civil rights struggle in particular. First of all, Blacks were denied basic rights is a fact, not perception. This is not a nit pick. The word "perception" is too easy to misunderstand as different from reality.

This is certainly nit pick despite your denial. Brahmins are capable of lengthy hair- splitting arguments over abstract subjects. I find that you are no exception to it.
Don't you think you perceive only what exists or do you perceive non-existant things also like you do with "brahminism".

The struggle for freedom for Blacks started from the very day they were kidnapped and brought to the shores of America. There has been several slave-apprising in which scores of Whites were killed. All of them, of course, ended in brutal suppression. Very recently, a book was released about the largest slave revolt in U.S. soil in 1811, click here for a news item about it.
At the same time, the northern states, while quite racist in many ways, had outlawed slavery and blacks flourished. A black intellectual class developed. There is a rich history of black activism, both militant and intellectual. MLK rose from from this long line of Black movement, from Frederick Douglass to ....
It is not as if MLK suddenly came into the scene, asked for justice and the White congress quickly took care of everything -- far from it. The civil rights movement was a long struggle, there were many voices and MLK was one voice, and his was the most powerful voice. For this, he was persecuted by the establishment. He was under constant FBI surveillance. Hoover tried to smear him with all kinds of rumors in an attempt to neutralize his influence. Finally he gave his life in the struggle, when he was not even 40 years old.

My intention was not to teach the participant the American history in all its details. I was just trying to drive home a point about Americans' ability to get over the past(however long/gory it may be) by admitting that mistakes were committed. It indicates their capacity to laugh at their own stupidity, their follies, their ego, their animal instincts, their lack of empathy, their hypocricy etc., and make amends whole heartedly. And finally it also shows the determination to stick to their path of accommodation/inclusion. If I had wanted to teach history, I would have done that in a much more elaborate way. I would have referred an online history book to the participant. I thought it was not needed.

LBJ saw the writing on the wall and had the wisdom to get the civil rights legislation passed into law. But, the struggle is ongoing. Blacks still suffer from a variety of discrimination. For all the progress US has made, racism is often just under the surface.

Indians saw the writing on the wall much earlier even though it was only a 'scribble' at that time. They wrote a constitution which decided to make growth of the nation inclusive right from day one. The victims of dominant castes were meticulously listed in a schedule to the constitution(scheduled castes) to avoid any confusion and they were given concessions and privileges. It is a different story that the dominant castes using their numbers in the parliament later highjacked it and got all the concessions and privileges extended to themselves also by creating a BC category. Now the fight is still going on for inclusion of more and more dominant castes into the bandwagon of BCs(not of SCs!!-please note this carefully!!!). Thus we see the farce being staged before our eyes- the farce of classifying people as scheduled backward, most backward, just backward and backward enough to be scheduled but in a separate schedule etc., Yes.- for all the progress made by US there is still a thought that racial superiority is existant. How do they handle this?You have yourself answered this. Please read further.

However, the general zeitgeist of American society does not countenance racism anymore, at least the open expression of it. This is the change that is lacking among Brahmins. General attitudes of superiority among Brahmins, and openly touting it as seen in this very forum often, are parts of the Brahmin zeitgeist, which is what all of us need to fight and tame.

When you talk about America it is the American society which does not countenance racism anymore. But when it comes to India it has to be not the Indian society or Hindu society but it has to be only the brahmins. This is the biggest obsession of you which you do not even realise. And this is the biggest flaw in your arguments which gives them a partisan character. Why only brahmins? Why not use the term general orthodoxy or better hindu society which would include the brahmins, Mudalis, Chettys, Gounders,thevars and the whole lot of those 'supremacist thugs'?

BTW, both Ghandhi and MLK were murdered by supremacist thugs motivated by the same kind of supremacist ideology. A nephew of mine, well educated (DAV school), well placed in the U.S. to rack in the dollars by the boat load, and an otherwise nice and respectful fellow, says Ghandhi had it coming and Godse is some sort of a patriot.

I dont hold any brief for Godse. I condemn his act of murder of Mahatma. But then to contrive a supremacist ideology in that event(you would have preferred to use the term brahminist ideology but did not use it. I do not understand why) shows only a lack of awareness of the undercurrents that preceded the assassination of Gandhi. Please read a detailed account of Godse's views and the proceedings of that case in the court.

 

[ShivKC]

Sri Sangom,

A good diversion indeed in "வெட்டிப் பேச்சு". My understanding of the proverb is that " கூத்தாடி" is an outsider, an entertainer, he has no responsibility in the Village. He had come to make money. When the village is divided into two, he can enjoy the difference to make money.The other one"வீட்டையே ரெண்டாக்கிடுவன்" should mean breaking the house into pieces by their boisterous activity.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

sir, just out of curiosity.

Who is an outsider entertainer alias the KOOTHADI here?

 

[happyhindu]

Yes.Leaving the cities and metros in Tamilnadu that is very much the situation. Money does not bring with it the respect and equality. In metros and cities it is different because of the anonymity enjoyed by individuals and families.

Well what you are saying strengthens what Shri Nara has been saying. It also strengthens what dalits also claim -- that a brahmin in utter poverty will still ill-treat a well-off man if he is a dalit. This basically means that caste system must be removed if we want a egalitarian society where merit and ability alone matters. Caste cannot be used as a yardstick of measuring anyone's ability / proclivity.

Where from did you get this term Brahminism? The source please. If we are against birth-based caste divisions then in that we should include every one in the society because birth based discrimination is practiced by every caste not only Brahmins. You cannot say that brahminism according to you only has this kind of discrimination. What about all other isms? Mudaliyarism, chettiyarism, thevarism etc also has these discriminations.

Brahmanism is a word no one created yet everyone understands that it represents labour laws of the rigid birth-based kind. That is how the word is used in forums across the net. Am sorry Shri Raju, the whole thing called (a) casteism, (b) caste-discrimination, and (c) ill-treatment based on caste, is based on the shastras. Hence it is imperative that changes have to be made to the source, that is to the shastras. I posted this to Vivek, i post this to you again:

Yes its true that NBs suppress low-castes in rural places bcoz they think it wud be a social embarassement to them if those low-castes become their equal. But why do they consider them 'low-caste'? Who designated those 'low-castes' as low-castes'? How did they get designated as 'low-castes'?

You can only say casteism was kept alive. Not brahminism. I object to that. Once you say brahminism it is DK’s language-paarpaneeyam. I believe it is sheer non-sense to call casteism by the name brahminism. Excuse me no offence meant for you.

Sorry Shri Raju, casteism and brahmanism (labour-laws) mean one and the same thing.

I don’t agree with you. Brahmins did try to bring that like the Americans did it after the civil rights movement in their country. They created a separate schedule to the constitution of India and listed in it all the panchamans of India by various caste names and gave them special concessions and privileges to bring them on a par with the other chatur varnas ( they were called Scheduled castes and Tribes). You may remember that the Indian Constituent assembly and the drafting committee had all prominent Brahmins of that time and included Dr. Ambedkar a dalit also in it. But later when adult franchise came in vogue the majority dominant castes of India, because of their numerical strength hijacked the parliament and the constitution and included the tormentors of the panchamans as ‘backward castes’ and gave them in the constitution privileges. They were so much casteist in their outlook that they did not even bother to add themselves to the list of the earlier schedule of constitution. But created a separate section for themselves. Perhaps they did not want the world to see them in the company of panchamans even in the schedule to the constitution of India!!

Shri Raju, your information is wrong. Special concessions were not given to NBs by brahmins. The NBs sought backward classification and reservations themselves in colonial india because brahmins were playing a bit of a monopoly game wrt cornering jobs in the colonial government while around the same time testifying varnas in courts. This was discussed in the "Brits are to Blame" thread. Even by Shri Saidevo's admission, it is clear that mutts interefered with / influenced the constitution (to me, the orthodoxy merely created loopholes to keep casteism thriving): http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/5557-enge-brahmanana-21.html#post68234

No. Politicians and pseudo intellectuals never for a moment allow castes to be forgotten. If they do, they will all lose their jobs and the avenue for pastime.

The past is meant to serve as learning lessons. However, it is apparent that the orthodoxy wants to turn a blind eye to the past. Hence, as long as the orthodoxy holds on to birth-based divisions, this topic will be spoken about. As long as caste-system exists, politicians will misuse it. If the country does not want caste-based politics, then people themselves must voice against the caste system.

Why do you worry so much about the small number of orthodoxy in the fringes of the society. In America we do have KKK/Skinheads and the whites do not consider them as representing the views of the society or bother about them and waste their time.

The orthodoxy was / is not living in the fringes.

Again Dharmashastras and Brahmins are equated. Why?

Because smarthas are keepers of smrithis (dharamshastras).

Please read a few line above again where I have written about the people in the fringe.

If you think they are fringes, its your personal pov. Your opinion hardly matters. What matters is the social scene. Go to any hindu gathering (irrespective of whether it is arya samaj, chinmaya group, nityananda group, just any hindu group) and ask if anyone suports caste-system in its present form. Or visit other forums and find out the opinions of other people there. Its obvious that except a few orthodox elders, no one else today supports the caste-system in its present form. Definitely social and religious changes must start with orthodoxy if the effects have to percolate to all levels and change the society at large for the better.

Again to square one! After all these arguments? When are we going to put the history behind and move forward?

Well, when people expect brahmins (orthodoxy) to give up caste-discrimination it becomes natural for folks to examine where caste-discrimination comes from. So if one were to state mere facts from indian history, it merely remain a fact. There are no arguments about this. If the orthodoxy wants to put history behind and move forward (and let everyone move forward), then it must give up caste-discrimination. Once they do that, obviously, over time people will forget all this history talk.

//Today there are venues for people to learn vedas and vedic chanting. But not in temples as yet. I hope that someday in future the options to learn vedic chanting is available at temples for children across all castes.//

Yes I agree.

Thanks.

Why bother about the fringe elements?.

Because those 'fringe elements' have bothered so much about themselves and not bothered a hoot for others (that is, those who face caste discrimination).

//If today the orthodoxy cares to remove birth-based segregations, a 100 years later no one will bother to talk about all this. Even if they discuss issues of the ancient past or the colonial past, it will not hurt anyone.//

Orthodoxy is so small in number and so much discredited and so badly out of touch with reality that it can never do this. It has to come from the society particularly the leaders of the dominant and powerful castes of the society. They are not likely to give up castes from their agenda bnecause it is their votebank.

Cheers.

Sorry Shri Raju, the orthodoxy exercised a lot of influence in the days immediately preceding india's independence and also in the post-indepndent years. It is futile for you to try to portry them as some fringe elements. If not for the police case, kanchi mutt would have continued to be highly powerful (not that it is powerless now; it still has big wig followers who will do anything for the mutt).

Anyways, coming to casteism, if changes happen at the grass-roots level, from the religious pov, then the so-called dominant castes can do nothing about it. I find you do not respond to the statement i made twice earlier -- if a paraiyar had the option to become a brahmin, then a thever wud never dare ill-treat him. If such options are made available, the dominant castes will be forced to give up casteism.

Regards.

 

[suraju06]

happyhindu

You can have the pleasure of having said the last word on the topic. I give up. If we discuss this any further people will remember only the song "அரைச்ச மாவ அரைப்போமா , துவச்ச துணிய துவைப்போமா". Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

sir, just out of curiosity.

Who is an outsider entertainer alias the KOOTHADI here?

shiv, who is your candidate?

 

[Nara]

....
I am happy that you are now talking good logic. This is what communists in India say. This is exactly what I am also driving at.But then wait wait...... read below...

[..]

How sad. You can never be logic beyond a point. Wherever you go you will get back to square one of "brahminism". I should not have celebrated your returning to logical argument so early.

[..]

I don't know why you stopped at that without icing the cake with something about the pet obsession with 'brahminism'

Usually people lace their personal invectives within some point they make, but, folks, do you see any point in this post of suraju06 except make some personal comments about me?

 

[Nara]

....My intention was not to teach the participant the American history in all its details.

Your intentions not withstanding, you made a false analogy citing American history. This only revealed a profound ignorance of American history, which points to how false your analogy was.

 

[Nara]

....When you talk about America it is the American society which does not countenance racism anymore. But when it comes to India it has to be not the Indian society or Hindu society but it has to be only the brahmins. This is the biggest obsession of you which you do not even realise. And this is the biggest flaw in your arguments which gives them a partisan character. Why only brahmins? Why not use the term general orthodoxy or better hindu society which would include the brahmins, Mudalis, Chettys, Gounders,thevars and the whole lot of those 'supremacist thugs'?

It seems your obsession is to tell me I have this obsession. I have already stated this several times, and I will state it again, as followins:

READ:

due to the limit of my knowledge, experience, interest and access, the battle I want to "fight" is against Brahmins committed to Brahminism. The battle against OBCs following Brahminism in its form of caste supremacy is being waged by others and I support them whole-heartedly.
​

While not understood, go back to READ

Whites are primarily responsible for racism in American society, like it is the Brahmins who are primarily responsible for the supremacist ideology Brahminism. The whites in the most part have come to terms with their supremacist ideology, and because they hold the levers of power are also making amends. Brahmins on the other hand still cling to their supremacist ideology and openly express it as well. Mudaliyars and Gaundars do too, but that is not a sufficient reason for everyone to race to the bottom.

The duty of the powerful OBCs is to jettison their caste-based acts. Similarly, it is the duty of all Brahmins to jettison their caste-superiority enshrined in Brahminism. The Brahmins have an additional responsibility, that of pulling the intellectual rug from under the feet of OBC tormentors. My focus is to advocate for this change among the Brahmins in a forum dedicated to Brahmin welfare. If you have a problem with that .......

 

[nachi naga]

actually,humanity in general like to have krodha,kama,moha,mathsarya,lobha worldwide whether its bramanas,kshatriyas,vaishyas,shudras,white,black,brown,yellow,mixed breeds,latino,chicano,dingos,anglo-saxon,anglo-indians..etc.To simply simplify,we are just humans with animalistic tendencies prevailing in varying degrees from time to time in history in the present and safely assert in future too.

 

[happyhindu]

You can have the pleasure of having said the last word on the topic. I give up. If we discuss this any further people will remember only the song "அரைச்ச மாவ அரைப்போமா , துவச்ச துணிய துவைப்போமா". Cheers.

Shri Raju,

Even while quitting a converation there is no necessity to characterise (saying i cud have the pleasure of having the last word).

Sir, if you have valid answers it would only be appropriate that you post them. If there are none, there are nicer way to quit a conversation (One such way is by not posting anything as a reply).

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

shiv, who is your candidate?

Shri Kunjuppu,

Who else could you expect as the candidate from a person who stoops to the level of indirect name-calling as எச்சி இல்லை - நாய் Please refer to the post here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...on-interpretting-scriptures-16.html#post68485 So please do not waste your time / attention on ShivKC. It is more appropriate to ask the originator of the கூத்தாடி statement, that is Shri Brahmanyan to explain his post on what he meant by that post; and who he meant by கூத்தாடி and வீட்டையே ரெண்டாக்கிடுவன் .

So Shri Brahmanyan for a change it may be a good idea to 'dare to be bold' and explain your post # 45 please: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...6-3015-2970-3021-2970-3009-a-5.html#post69879 Shri Brahmanyan you introduce yourself in blogs as someone who beleives in: "Love towards every living thing in the border-less world" - really sir, do you?

Regards.

Sri Sangom,

A good diversion indeed in "வெட்டிப் பேச்சு". My understanding of the proverb is that " கூத்தாடி" is an outsider, an entertainer, he has no responsibility in the Village. He had come to make money. When the village is divided into two, he can enjoy the difference to make money.The other one"வீட்டையே ரெண்டாக்கிடுவன்" should mean breaking the house into pieces by their boisterous activity.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[suraju06]

Usually people lace their personal invectives within some point they make, but, folks, do you see any point in this post of suraju06 except make some personal comments about me?

Mr. Nara,
Cool! friend, cool.You have addressed your above query to the folks. Because it is also addressed to me I am replying to you. I am one of those folks. If you quote all my posts by taking them out of the context ;like you have done above, how do you expect the folk to give you a reply. The folk clearly understand that there is lot of meaning in whatever I post here as I find from what they write to me. Then about invectives, please note that i do not deliver any invectives whether in packed condition or open condition. That is all reserved for intellectuals who are good at playing with words for a pastime. I have posted these comments which you have quoted here in reply to your postings and they are very relevant to the context. Please read my comments and your posts once more. I have no time to write vyaakyaanam for all the comments I make and so I make them simple and meaningful to any reader. Then about personal comments about you, I have repeatedly made it clear that the posts once made by any one here are the property of the forum and members will make comments which can be critical or appreciative. While making critical comments a certain amount of sarcasm is unavoidable. If you are so sensitive to sarcasm then you should either refrain from posting anything(which I wont like to happen) or make it clear that you do not accept sarcastic comments by making a footnote. Until you make your position clear sarcastic comments, hard-hitting comments, critical comments etc will continue. Of course Praveen is there to determine whether a comment has crossed the standard of decency set for the forum. Cheers friend.

 

[suraju06]

Your intentions not withstanding, you made a false analogy citing American history. This only revealed a profound ignorance of American history, which points to how false your analogy was.

Please elaborate what was wrong with my example in the context in which I gave it. You owe it to this forum. (1) I said American civil rights struggle is similar to the struggle of panchamans/dalits in India. (2) Then I proceeded to say that While Americans are able to put things behind and move forward, We Indians are not able to do that.(3) I further elaborated saying while Americans brought necessary legislations to set right a historic wrong Indians too brought necessary legislations to set right the historic wrong by creating a provision in their constitution itself. Thus both the societies made amends. Please let me know what is wrong in this example. Dear friend, you may be very learned to pick on words in isolation and write a thesis on that like when you picked on the word 'perception'. I call it nit picking. I also made it clear that I used this example to stress the fact that we should move away from the blame-game that is going on. Now I expect a clear, precise reply from you.

As you have determined, I may lack a 'profound knowledge' of American History. I can live without that kind of knowledge. For the purpose of my post here the knowledge that i have exhibited about American History is adequate.Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Mr. Nara's words in quotes:

It seems your obsession is to tell me I have this obsession.

This is again polemics. You are playing with the words and you have a penchant for this. I can play with you this game. But I have no time.

I have already stated this several times, and I will state it again, as followins:
due to the limit of my knowledge, experience, interest and access, the battle I want to "fight" is against Brahmins committed to Brahminism. The battle against OBCs following Brahminism in its form of caste supremacy is being waged by others and I support them whole-heartedly.

I too repeat:There is no brahminism. If it is there it is there only in the fertile imagination and the dark innards of the hatred-selling politicians' minds.The casteism is being fought by every progressive individual in the hindu society and this includes, brahmins, mudalis, chettys, gounders, thevars, pillais et al.,The pseudo intellectuals/revolutionaries and the politicians will never allow castes to be put behind and forgotten to march forward. They have their own agenda. It is pathetic that India, with a million mutinies in its hands at any given time on an on going basis, has no time to tackle this menace.

Whites are primarily responsible for racism in American society

It is like saying anopheles mosquitoes are primarily responsible for malaria.

it is the Brahmins who are primarily responsible for the supremacist ideology Brahminism. The whites in the most part have come to terms with their supremacist ideology, and because they hold the levers of power are also making amends. Brahmins on the other hand still cling to their supremacist ideology and openly express it as well. Mudaliyars and Gaundars do too, but that is not a sufficient reason for everyone to race to the bottom.

My point again is that in the first and third sentence in the above quote it would be appropriate to replace the word brahminism and brahmins with the words casteists and casteism. This is because your words have the deleterious effect of condemning one section of the society permanently to the dog-house and that should not be the purpose of the political discourse.

The duty of the powerful OBCs is to jettison their caste-based acts. Similarly, it is the duty of all Brahmins to jettison their caste-superiority enshrined in Brahminism. The Brahmins have an additional responsibility, that of pulling the intellectual rug from under the feet of OBC tormentors. My focus is to advocate for this change among the Brahmins in a forum dedicated to Brahmin welfare. If you have a problem with that .......

Why this equivocation? Say boldly that all casteists have to give up whatever casteist ideas they have. There is no intellectual rug to be pulled by brahmins. Intellectual rug if any is there only in the lunatic fringe of the society like we have KKK/Skinheads in the white society of US. Such lunatic fringe will survive for ever. No need to lose sleep over them as long as they do not become a menace. This Americans have realized: but what about Indians? The majority of this forum is not comprised of those who are in the lunatic fringe. So you can wage your battles or sell your wares elsewhere. Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri Suraju06,

For what the white peoples of Europe (particularly the British, French , Italian, Dutch, Germans and Spaniards) did to the blacks and other aborigines of Americas and Australia, they deserve to be burnt at stake, as it were.

You should understand the deep-seated resentment of the great West Indian cricketer Vivian Richards towards the whites, though personally he is on good terms with many white individuals.

The white people do not perceive any threat either from the blacks and the aborigines (they are all but wiped out) and hence they can talk of liberty, freedom, democracy and all that. The reaction of the whites remains to be seen when they (blacks) gather strength and challenge the whites comprehensively. This dynamics has to be understood.

To draw a parallel with atrocities of the white with the caste injustices is just playing into their hands. Most Indians in Europe and America won't talk much on that for they know which side their bread is buttered.

Also Europe and America also have to keep their reputation of being freedom loving and all that. So they don't mind the harmless dissent of academics like Noam Chomsky and few others.

By the way, Gandhi was not killed because he spoke of equality, but purely because he went on a fast to persuade the Indian government to release Rs.50 Cr. due to Pakistan agreed upon the terms of partition when they were invading J&K. This I vouch as I personally had a chance to speak to Gopal Godse, brother of Nathuram and a co-conspirator.

In the trial held in camera, Nathuram had in fact praised Gandhi for being a mass-leader.

Rgds.,

Dear Swami,

I am in full agreement with you in this analysis. If, theoretically speaking (I personally would never ever like such a scenario) the brahmins had practically wiped out the rest of the population in Bharatakhanda and had become the ruling and numerical majority here, perhaps brahmins would also have said magnanimously (!) let bygones be bygones, we are sorry, now let us look to the future, I think.

 

[happyhindu]

I too repeat:There is no brahminism. If it is there it is there only in the fertile imagination and the dark innards of the hatred-selling politicians' minds.The casteism is being fought by every progressive individual in the hindu society and this includes, brahmins, mudalis, chettys, gounders, thevars, pillais et al.,The pseudo intellectuals/revolutionaries and the politicians will never allow castes to be put behind and forgotten to march forward. They have their own agenda. It is pathetic that India, with a million mutinies in its hands at any given time on an on going basis, has no time to tackle this menace.

It is like saying anopheles mosquitoes are primarily responsible for malaria.

Unfortunately for all your protestations on "brahmanism" Shri Raju, even some online dictionaries recognize the word "brahmanism" as below:

A) From Brahmanism - definition of Brahmanism by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
1. The religious practices and beliefs of ancient India as reflected in the Vedas.
2. The social and religious system of orthodox Hindus, especially of the Brahmins, based on a caste structure and various forms of pantheism.

B) From Brahmanism | Define Brahmanism at Dictionary.com
1. the religious and social system of the Brahmans and orthodox Hindus, characterized by the caste system and diversified pantheism.
2. the hinduism of the Vedas, Brahmanas, and Upanishads

Except some brahmins (that is, brahminists) themselves, i suppose the rest of the world will see brahmanism as that which includes and constitutes casteism. Brahmanism (labor laws) and Casteism simply mean one and the same thing.

There is no use in trying to push all the blame on politicians now. As long as caste-system remains, politicians will take advantage of it. Shameless cheats like Raja will continue to get elected in the name of caste and loot the country.

While the looting goes on, shameless brahmanical supremists will continue to indulge in characterising, name-calling and paying lip-service to words like "Love for all beings" and "Let noble thots come from all sides" (kindly note this does not refer to haridasa shiva).

However, such brahmanical supremists will do nothing to bring in an egalitarian society. Instead, they will leave the country to bleed.

And yes sir, the anopheles mosquitoes are primarily responsible for spreading malaria.

Regards.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Mr. Nara's words are in quotes:

This is certainly nit pick despite your denial. Brahmins are capable of lengthy hair- splitting arguments over abstract subjects. I find that you are no exception to it.

Brilliant. Yes, brahmins' propensity for hair-splitting was* legendary and I suppose that kept them in good stead when many of them took to legal profession during the British rule.
May be the poorvajanma/poorvasharama vasana of the member is being manifested amply here..

Rgds.,

* I consciously used "was", as I think that ability has almost faded away..