A Brahmin's Voice

[P.J.]

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A Brahmin's Voice

தற்போது பிராமின் பையன்களுக்கு பிரமின்களே பெண் கொடுபத்தில்லை. இதானால் பல பிராமின் பையன்கள் 30 டு 35 வயதுக்கு மேல் ஆகியும் திருமணம் ஆகாமல் உள்ளனர்.

இதனால் அவர்கள் பெற்றோர்கள் மிகவும் மன உளைச்சலில் நொந்து பொய் உள்ளனர். அவர்கள் தங்கள் பிள்ளைகளுக்கு திருமணம் அனால் போதும் என்ற நினைப்பில் வேற்று ஜாதி யை நாட துவங்கி உள்ளனர்.
இந்த சூழ்நிலை நீடிக்க துவங்கினால் அணைத்து பிராமின் குடும்பங்களிலும் கலப்பு திருமண தம்பதிகள் தான் இருப்பர்.

இந்த சூழ்நிலை இல் பிராமின் சங்கத்தில் செயல்பாடு என்ன?

பிராமின் மற்றிமோனி என்று சொன்னால் ஏந்த மற்றிமோனி உம் வணிக ரித்யகவே உள்ளளன. இவைகளினால் எந்த பயனும் இல்லை.

மேலும் திருமணத்துக்காக ஜோதிடம் சொன்ன ஜோதிடர்கள் தற்போது வருமான வரி செலுத்தும் அளவுக்கு சம்பாதித்து விட்டனர்.

பரிகாரம் என்ற பெயரில் பல கோயில்கள் நிரம்பி வழிகின்றன. பரிகாரங்கள் பலிக்காததால் தெய்வத்தின் மிது உள்ள நம்பிக்கும் குறைந்து கோயிலுக்கு பக்தியுடன் செல்லும் பழக்கம் குறய ஆரம்பித்துள்ளது.
பிராமின் நண்பர்களே தங்கள் கருத்க்க்களை கூறுங்கள். இல்லையெனில் பிரேமின வீடு மருமகள்கள் எஸ் சீ கமுனிட்டி லிருந்து வந்தவர்களாகவே இருப்பார்கள்.

பிராமின்கள் சாஸ்திரங்களை பேசுவதை விட குலத்தை காக்க முன்வருவார்கள?



Srirangam Balasubramanian

 

[rishikesan]

Marriage Predicament

Dear P.J and Srirangam Balasu.bramanian, fact of current situation is explained well & every Brahmin family having Sons , are not knowing what tO do next ?
A few proposals are in my mind, because of practically witnessing the pathetic situation,since my wife , who is an Astrologer, and parents express helpne ss even for their Girls , who are emboldened to defy the parents and impose on parents to get them married to a Non Brahmin , just because he is her colleague in work place and gives indisputable certificates , even though she would not be knowing the parents.And simply reject the Boy chosen by parents after considering our usual criteria.
1) firstly, at least 10 members who are

 

[rishikesan]

Contd. ........ 1) members of this forum ,experienced in this aspect, be listed out and about 10 who are in Chennai meet in a common place and analyse the situation first between ourselves The outcome of discussion , to be shared with our Head of Forum 2) A delegation to T.N Brahmin association Should discuss for Initiating a Plan of Action. Should invite parents of boys looking for Brides &continue efforts with Patience .
Note:- there are many , knowledgeable , experiences Men & women , who can guide the line / steps to be taken, so that momentum is gained
A.Srinivasan( rishikesan)
Make

 

[kunjuppu]

i have seen these days, tambram boys in their early 20s as candidates. not yet settled, but ready for marriage, out of fear that by the time they get settled they would be near 30 and no brides. this should be a good omen for girls' parents too as marrying them off early would avoid the type of intermarriage which many people here seem opposed.

let us see how this trend progresses. are the tambrams of today, for the majority of them, is caste that big a deal? i dont know. we should have anticipated the shrinking pool 50 years ago, when we adopted family planning like crazy. i am a product of such. the only reason mrs K has 4 siblings is that 3 of them are girls, and they all came into this world, because the dad wanted THE BOY.

 

[psnarasimhan]

Why all these fuss about brahmin girls marrying NB boys when there is an effective and practicle way to deal with. When we come to know about a girl married to a NB boy we must first warn her parents not to have any dealings with their daughter and excummunicate that 'odukaali' girl. Then what the girl will do if their is no help from her parents when it is needed particularly during pregnency and delivery times. It is sure her NB inlaws will never come to help her as I have seen in almost in all such cases, as the girls will always tend to put up a seperate family of her own knowing well that her parents will be with her for their existence. As suggested if the girl is excummunicated from the society and if there is no help from her parents and inlaws what she will do? She will come to her sense and that will be a lesson for other girls who may be thinking of marrying a NB. Now most of the girls are bold enough to marry a NB boy because she knows well that her parents will not stand in their way.

 

[auh]

Why all these fuss about brahmin girls marrying NB boys when there is an effective and practicle way to deal with. When we come to know about a girl married to a NB boy we must first warn her parents not to have any dealings with their daughter and excummunicate that 'odukaali' girl. Then what the girl will do if their is no help from her parents when it is needed particularly during pregnency and delivery times. It is sure her NB inlaws will never come to help her as I have seen in almost in all such cases, as the girls will always tend to put up a seperate family of her own knowing well that her parents will be with her for their existence. As suggested if the girl is excummunicated from the society and if there is no help from her parents and inlaws what she will do? She will come to her sense and that will be a lesson for other girls who may be thinking of marrying a NB. Now most of the girls are bold enough to marry a NB boy because she knows well that her parents will not stand in their way.

I think this is a cruel suggestion.

Please spare a thought for the girl; do you want to punish her for choosing her man? How we have degenerated !

 

[psnarasimhan]

I think this is a cruel suggestion.

Please spare a thought for the girl; do you want to punish her for choosing her man? How we have degenerated !

There is no use of thinking about that. If acute desease is to be cured by a heavy dose of medicine then you should not have a secong thought. Unless you give this dose nothing tangible will happen. Are the girls think about their community,their near and dear. How many boys/ brothers of these useless girls are suffering with any brahmin not offering their daughters in marriage to such youngmen for no fault of them. Please dont use such words like 'degenerated' and '''cruel suggestion'. If you favour and want to give your near and dear girls in marriage to NBs you are free to do that. But the community have got their right to excummunicate such persons who simply support their girls to marry NBs. You are free to preach to others and go on write anything as you please. This sort of supporting or encouraging our girls is nothing but poisoning our community slowly and now steadily. There is no use of going on debating about this matter without an end and we should put an FULL_STOP now and for ever.

 

[auh]

There is no use of thinking about that. If acute desease is to be cured by a heavy dose of medicine then you should not have a secong thought. Unless you give this dose nothing tangible will happen. Are the girls think about their community,their near and dear. How many boys/ brothers of these useless girls are suffering with any brahmin not offering their daughters in marriage to such youngmen for no fault of them. Please dont use such words like 'degenerated' and '''cruel suggestion'. If you favour and want to give your near and dear girls in marriage to NBs you are free to do that. But the community have got their right to excummunicate such persons who simply support their girls to marry NBs. You are free to preach to others and go on write anything as you please. This sort of supporting or encouraging our girls is nothing but poisoning our community slowly and now steadily. There is no use of going on debating about this matter without an end and we should put an FULL_STOP now and for ever.

With due respect, you do not represent the community and neither does your idea.

People suffer because of their unchanging views, inability to empathize, and wrong perceptions; we should attempt to change the malaise in the parents' minds rather than punishing innocent girls.

Do not drag the community's name to give recognition to your parochial thoughts.

 

[sarang]

Parents have their cherished values and the children too; if they are aligned, meaning no deviation, then there is no problem. If they are not aligned but both parents and children compromise and accept, then also there is no problem. If the parents and children are totally out of sync and no resolution is possible then the parents have the right to exile themselves minimising future contact with the newly weds. As long as there is no interference and violent repercussions, saying bye is good for both.

 

[Vaagmi]

There are three types of protagonists among our participating members here who sympathize with and support B-NB marriages. They are:

1. Those who have gone chasing the dollars and have settled down in distant countries with an entirely alien culture. They have by choice and due compulsion of circumstances immersed themselves completely into that culture which does not have and so does not recognize castes among the people. It is a different matter that there is an under current of racial prejudices even there. And the subject of origins of caste in Indian society is too vast a subject for discussion in this particular thread. These members think that they are born again western brahmins and are superior with a very broad or liberal(?) mind and the best values in the world. They keep offering their advises liberally to all of us here about the greatness of their unconditional love for their children which is claimed to be free of any expectations or tags. They advice us all not to bother about insisting on a B-B marriage. They even advise that in a poetic way by saying "dont put a lock on the uterus-es of your daughters". Whatever it means. LOL.

2. Those who belong to a family of B-NB parentage. These people also tell us invariably about the greatness of B-NB alliance. They even use the Mendel's theory to tell you that a crossbred/hybrid is always strong and survival rate is excellent etc., as if what matters is just physical survival alone. LOL. They will quote personal anecdotes to tell you the happiness they are enjoying and will encourage you in a subtle way that a B-NB marriage is the panacea for all perceived ills that afflict the brahmin community today.

3. Those who have very miserably failed in their duties to their children by not telling them what it takes to be a brahmin. These people would have never bothered to know anything about the values, culture or the meaning of brahmin caste and would have had parents who again lived a stupid life in this world. These people usually live a licentious life. They may eat anything and everything, smoke, tell lies in their millions, leave their poonool in the hanger at home to be worn only on religious ceremonies, or even use poonool as a convenient flexible tool to scratch the inaccessible back of the body when it itches. These are the most militant here because these people could neither go and get a green card with the help of inherited intelligence nor marry anyone well endowed with from other communities and they are a miserable frustrated lot. some of these people may have acquired this trait because of their living in the distant northern states for long far away from Tamilnadu.

The brahmins who know what it requires to be a brahmin, what are the cultural moorings and traditions of their caste, what are the scientific implications of caste system, What are the advantages in retaining the age old system of marrying within the caste etc., have the following options:

1. The category 1 and 2 mentioned above should be left to themselves. They are prisoners of circumstances and so have chosen a certain path. We can not do anything about it. Just listen to them respectfully and do not argue as the argument is of no tangible value. They can not change and nor can they accept your pov because that would amount to accepting that they went wrong. The ego in everyone is elephant size. You can engage them in an argument to just highlight the strength of your convictions about B-B marriages and leave it at that.

2. The third category is like plague. It can be a dangerous contagion. Do not argue. Just keep away. They do not even know that a brahmin does not believe in the superior-inferior discriminatory totempole grading in their perception of caste system. So no use engaging with these people in an argument. Leave them alone to be happy with their understanding of the caste system and their contempt for it.

3. Bring up your children in the culture and tradition that you have inherited from your ancestors carefully. Tell them every aspect of your culture and its meaning. Teach them how to judge events, knowledge, processes and advices. Help them cultivate an open mind which examines every bit of info critically before accepting. that would be enough. That will do wonders. When the time comes encourage them to marry within the caste and explain to them the importance of it. Be very watchful without being overbearing or intrusive. Be always aware of what is happening to the individual that is your son or daughter. And place faith in God.

4. If you are unfortunate to not get a girl for your son (as is the compalint of many here) boldly go and get a girl from an orphanage (there are many in the country) give her a gothra by getting her adopted and then take her as your daughter in law. Nambudris of Kerala are doing precisely this. Dont bother about Iyer/Iyengar differences or Madhva/telugu brahmin differences.

 

[psnarasimhan]

With due respect, you do not represent the community and neither does your idea.

People suffer because of their unchanging views, inability to empathize, and wrong perceptions; we should attempt to change the malaise in the parents' minds rather than punishing innocent girls.

Do not drag the community's name to give recognition to your parochial thoughts.

Again and again you are arguing only in a wrong way. Neither you nor me do not represent our community. When aNB say "pappara pazanga' paappaaththi' 'pappaara ponnu kopta varum' etc., Does it mean you or me, but it denotes the entire community. There must be something fishy in your orgument. Who are innocent girls? Is a girl eloping with a NB boy and marry him an innocent. Then you must also be an innocent pitying such girls.Who is parochial? If you say one who defends his caste and brotherns is parochial then who is honest and pure in his thinking. I have put up a definite solution to the problem. You are only arguing without any solution saying " we should attempt to change the malaise in the parents' mind"
How? tell us . It is clear some vested interest people are supporting these type of parents only for the reasons best known to them.
In one another reply a gentleman analized the whole thing well splitting into catagories and I simply agree with him.There he gave some useful suggestions.Again my idea is only suggestive and I dont thrust them in others.

 

[auh]

There are three types of protagonists among our participating members here who sympathize with and support B-NB marriages. They are:
...

How much more wrong can you get?!

 

[auh]

Again and again you are arguing only in a wrong way. Neither you nor me do not represent our community. When aNB say "pappara pazanga' paappaaththi' 'pappaara ponnu kopta varum' etc., Does it mean you or me, but it denotes the entire community. There must be something fishy in your orgument. Who are innocent girls? Is a girl eloping with a NB boy and marry him an innocent. Then you must also be an innocent pitying such girls.Who is parochial? If you say one who defends his caste and brotherns is parochial then who is honest and pure in his thinking. I have put up a definite solution to the problem. You are only arguing without any solution saying " we should attempt to change the malaise in the parents' mind"
How? tell us . It is clear some vested interest people are supporting these type of parents only for the reasons best known to them.
In one another reply a gentleman analized the whole thing well splitting into catagories and I simply agree with him.There he gave some useful suggestions.Again my idea is only suggestive and I dont thrust them in others.

What is wrong in my reply? please elucidate... thanks.

Is love such a crime that you term a girl who loves as guilty? This gives an insight into your (and the likes such as yours) mindset. By all means feel free to defend your caste but nothing comes above children's happiness. Dont think of children as your symbol of caste pride and honour but treat them as human beings capable of independent thinking with the right to exercise their free will.

If caring for a human being is a vested interest, then yes, I have a vested interest.

I am only egging on our good-natured side to take the other hand...

Regards,

 

[Vaagmi]

How much more wrong can you get?!

what is wrong in my post? Please elucidate. Thanks. LOL.

I am used to such high sounding but empty value judgements. No problem if you are unable to elucidate. Ivory towers of IC enthusiasts and their highpriests are tall indeed
LOL.

 

[sarang]

Sometimes children bring unhappiness to their parents in many ways. Marrying out without approval and support of parents is one of them. Ilayaraja was highly hurt when his son married a Muslim girl. He virtually cut all contacts and did not attend his son's wedding. The parents just say 'engirunthalum new vazhga' and go their way.

 

[auh]

what is wrong in my post? Please elucidate. Thanks. LOL.

I am used to such high sounding but empty value judgements. No problem if you are unable to elucidate. Ivory towers of IC enthusiasts and their highpriests are tall indeed
LOL.

You have, indeed, a knack of superimposing your thoughts using others' words

When you have called my reply as "high sounding but empty value judgements" you are, by the same token, branding your very same post with the same label.

If sweeping judgemental posts about people or group of people, without proven data, is not an example of prejudiced thinking then yes, there is nothing wrong in your post, which then, would only reflect an unverified opinion.

I am making things clear - I am no enthusiast on any matter, but for pity's sake, do read the post of shri psn. He has advocated exile... we are not barbarians to ostracize our loved ones. You sound like the caste-maniac-nbs of kangeyam or erode or further down south who would not hesitate to chop off their daughter were they to marry a person of another caste.

 

[Vaagmi]

nothing comes above children's happiness. Dont think of children as your symbol of caste pride and honour but treat them as human beings capable of independent thinking with the right to exercise their free will.

Children will be happy if parents concede every wish good or bad. If a child feels so strongly about free will and independence she should leave parental home as soon as she reach 16 years and chart out her course. That is what is happening in some of the western societies. You can not declare independence and yet live within the security and comfort given by parents to hit them hard and hurt them.

 

[auh]

Sometimes children bring unhappiness to their parents in many ways. Marrying out without approval and support of parents is one of them. Ilayaraja was highly hurt when his son married a Muslim girl. He virtually cut all contacts and did not attend his son's wedding. The parents just say 'engirunthalum new vazhga' and go their way.

This is an individual's action based on his value system and perception. Circumstances are different and individuals are diverse...

 

[auh]

Children will be happy if parents concede every wish good or bad. If a child feels so strongly about free will and independence she should leave parental home as soon as she reach 16 years and chart out her course. That is what is happening in some of the western societies. You can not declare independence and yet live within the security and comfort given by parents to hit them hard and hurt them.

This is only one aspect of the issue - it happens when parents have too much expectations and breathe down their childrens' neck on every issue.

 

[auh]

I think one solution for all those who may feel strongly about their progenies marrying out of caste would be to get a written confirmation from their "Ishta Devata" or " Grama Devata" to bind their offspring's mind so as to maken them subservient to the parents' whims and fantasies.

 

[Vaagmi]

You have, indeed, a knack of superimposing your thoughts using others' words

When you have called my reply as "high sounding but empty value judgements" you are, by the same token, branding your very same post with the same label.

If sweeping judgemental posts about people or group of people, without proven data, is not an example of prejudiced thinking then yes, there is nothing wrong in your post, which then, would only reflect an unverified opinion.

I am making things clear - I am no enthusiast on any matter, but for pity's sake, do read the post of shri psn. He has advocated exile... we are not barbarians to ostracize our loved ones. You sound like the caste-maniac-nbs of kangeyam or erode or further down south who would not hesitate to chop off their daughter were they to marry a person of another caste.

this is a problem which I come across frequently in this forum. When an inconvenient question is asked people abandon the subject under discussion and digress into a dukrinjkarane.

I note that you are not an enthusiast of ic marriages. All that I am telling is that the children too have responsibilities. I won't chop off the head of any daughter. But I wont mind chopping off the connecting chord of relationship if the daughter becomes a pain.

my observation about groups of people is based on impressions gained from the posts here. They have logical base.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

In a few cases it looks like the girls' are choosing liberty rather than groom. The state of individual's economy plays a role. The boys want to tread on fathers' or parents' path. And except about 10% the parents of either side do not show any awareness to modern life. In nutshell, everybody is afraid of the future. It is again funny that some boys parent's emphatically boast of their son doing Sandhyavandanam and reciting Rudram, etc. and visiting temples of their choice twice a week. This puts off girls as if they might be led into an orthodox den. Maybe some girls are improving their non-Brahmin families. The older generations of 20th century are the culprits. Yet our boys are great, once they have a house of their own.

 

[Vaagmi]

This is only one aspect of the issue - it happens when parents have too much expectations and breathe down their childrens' neck on every issue.

parents have already lived their full life and so have no expectations from children other than that they live peacefully in a harmonious relationship with the community. When this expectation is belied the children become pain.

 

[prasad1]

In the heat of the moment or under passion we say things which everyone knows is a lie.
How we react under pressure of real life situation is totally different.

There used to be Muslim member in this forum married to a TB lady. He used to say that his in laws accepted him, otherwise they would have lost their daughter.
Hypothetically speaking is different than a real life situation.

In the Argentine mine when miners were trapped for 45 days without food, it was claimed they cannibalized their fallen comrade.

Being a vegetarian it is totally unthinkable, I think I would rather die. But in real life I do not know how one would behave under pressure.

 

[P.J.]

Due to demand of Dowry from Tamil Brahmin boy's parents, ( both Iyer and Iyengars ) Tamil Brahmin Girl's Parents started seeking alliances for their daughter from other sects brahmin community like Telugu, Madhva, Kerala Brahmins and slowly it got expanded to any Brahmins from North India etc. because of Tamil Brahmin Boys parents demanded and expected more from girl's side;

Slowly even seeking alliances from any brahmins in any community changed to any caste due to work environment, job opportunities , and changed Girls outlook due to media exposure.

So it is all due to age old system of Dowry, joint family system, resulted in Tamil Brahmin Girls seeking the hand of Non Brahmin boys.

Now even though no Brahmin boys parents demand any dowry, other conditions like joint family etc still remain.

Parents of Tamil Brahmin Boys ( both Iyer and Iyengars ) do not allow their son to to have separate establishment after marriage; this trend should completely change, otherwise Brahmin Girls would like to move away from Brahmin boys and their parents.