about brahmins

[palindrome]

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thank you for your kind suggestions... but i think the answer is obvious, just that we may not always perceive it the way it is to be perceived...

or perhaps, you want me to believe it in a certain way that you raise questions without answering yourself...? you should be able to do better than that!

the queries i have raised is not about the status of a brahmin as regards his obligations... a brahmins duties is not bound by the individual alone... rather it is the entire setup of society which calls for majority of the actions of a brahmin...

i have already answered to the questions in my post above to MM regarding reasons why misinterpretation happened to occur.

as regards a brahmin being one, he can very well learn to perform yagyas while pursuing a secular education - or atleast just learn the vedas.

 

[palindrome]

re - your 2nd para - that's precisely why , we say we should not see Rishi Moolam. there can be rishis from any where.

Just some questions out of line....

do you know from where the word caste come from? it is from spain.

do you know in japan the caste systems is in vogue

nothing wrong in searching for rishi moolams. geologists also sometimes search for nadi moolams before building dams or making water supply systems.

everybody who is searching for rishi moolams are all saying they are local borns, not from outside.

i agree wholeheartedly the english botched up caste concepts.

the japanese caste system had similar sections like the hindus, but was also very much different from us: http://www.lisashea.com/japan/articles/rank.html

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

i have already answered to the questions in my post above to MM regarding reasons why misinterpretation happened to occur.

as regards a brahmin being one, he can very well learn to perform yagyas while pursuing a secular education - or atleast just learn the vedas.

misinterpretation is a probability, not a certainity... so a conclusion on a probability could be misleading...

paleontologists would say that there were a set of entirely different creatures from what we see today... could it be that humans were also different? why not?

as for the brahmin duties - not all, there are certain fixed and variable portions to it.... that which you refer to is the fixed part...

 

[palindrome]

misinterpretation is a probability, not a certainity... so a conclusion on a probability could be misleading...

paleontologists would say that there were a set of entirely different creatures from what we see today... could it be that humans were also different? why not?

as for the brahmin duties - not all, there are certain fixed and variable portions to it.... that which you refer to is the fixed part...

I agree with you misinterpretation is a probability not certainity. The only prob is that the probability factor was high and is getting higher (for me atleast).

Please let us not compare with science and paleontologists. Am trying to go by interpretations given by various sampradayas alone. Everyone concurs, but only one group differs. Am not taking science or anything else into consideration.

strictly speaking, it is expected that all duties are to be performed. That wud leave a man with no time...that's where the prob comes. But atleast a man can keep aside 10 years to learn the vedas. Its actually a short term solution (or atleast that's what it looks like). But why not heed to it, maybe it was advised that way because it is all for the better..

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

I agree with you misinterpretation is a probability not certainity. The only prob is that the probability factor was high and is getting higher (for me atleast).

Please let us not compare with science and paleontologists. Am trying to go by interpretations given by various sampradayas alone. Everyone concurs, but only one group differs. Am not taking science or anything else into consideration.

strictly speaking, it is expected that all duties are to be performed. That wud leave a man with no time...that's where the prob comes. But atleast a man can keep aside 10 years to learn the vedas. Its actually a short term solution (or atleast that's what it looks like). But why not heed to it, maybe it was advised that way because it is all for the better..

yes, the probability may be high, but possibly that could be due to our present perception...

social circumstances and the relative respect of a brahmin have forced them to sacrifice those areas where it does not comply with "the necessity to earn a living"... and over time, it has been reduced to a bare minimum...

yes, i should prefer a brahminical life to the other... but, do i get a reciprocal action from the society? life and living are more important, and hence the practices have been diluted...

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu Ji,

A very timely and should I say a very poignant posting. Thank you.

I have read Sri SS Ji's rejoinder with interest. His points are valid as it seems today in every sphere of life in India, especially in TN, what is symbolized by Brahmins is under attack. Not only from the pseudo-secular forces but also by other religions intent on increasing their rolls either to 'save' souls or to get people out of their current misery.

We need to talk about traditions here. Let us ruminate a bit about what we are talking about when we say 'traditions'. This is a code word. Because there are multiplicity of 'traditions' within our religion, and it starts at the village level. Those 'traditions' that ran our society for a long time unfortunately do not apply anymore. Mobility (by train), industrialization, city centric life have altered forever those 'traditions'.

We are now a shell of ourselves from the past, irrespective of our castes. Each one of us in any caste today is struggling to find the meaning of what all this change means to us individually. To a TB, it is our identity and role. To the Chettiars, it is their survival, to the Vanniars it is establishing their voice within others of their kind and of course with the Dalits, it is understanding who they are and why they are in the bottom of the society TODAY and so on and so forth.

Your comment about the reality of today is very appropriate and I would suggest that each of us spends some time ruminating about this.

Let me summarize my own thinking on this:

1. Brahmins exist with a privileged position in the society only to support the well functioning of the society in promoting it's cultural, philosophical and overall prosperity of the Hindu way of life. This is the only model in the world where the power to shape the society was granted to a people who do not hold the political power, but only the moral and spiritual powers.

2. When this changed, the problems started. State (kings) did not support us Brahmins anymore, and so we took up mundane jobs to survive. So the trouble began.

3. So here we are today. We don't have the power to shape the society anymore, because we lost the moral authority. This is why we are suffering today.

4. Except for a few of us, we stood in silence when 'mooda nambikkai' created a whole class of people called 'Dalits' today. This is the shame of our religion and I personally think that the Brahmins are in this precarious position in the New India, because we stood silently by. We still hate to acknowledge our role in creating this montrosity. And this single issue is killing our religion. 'Tradition' means that we need to acknowledge our part in creating this problem - we were in charge of all aspects of the culture.

5. Issues with conversions are a red herring. I exactly know personally about cases why some people convert. Sir CP was not wrong. Till we admit our own role in making certain people convert, no law can stop it.

6. We are tto defensive as a group. We are under attack because others twist the idea about who we are. We can change these perceptions. But we can not do it if we cling to the old notions of Jathis and fail to understand that the modern living is upon us.

7. If we do not change, then we will perish. This is why we need to encourage a modern truly secular India, where wean contribute with our natural strenghts.

Regards,
KRS

 

[s007bala]

kunjuppu

>>personally, i again, lay the blame for this situation, on the lack of vision of our so called religious heads like the kanchi mutt.<<

In other words you blame,white christian canadians for converting native canadians(red indians) and put them en block in reservations and converted en block africans who were brought as slaves to - christanity.hmmmm?

or is it only kanchi mutts ( so called religious heads as per you ) leaving the sringeri mutts leaders,or the pejawar mutts or siddhaganga mutts or chuncheri mutts............etc from the north to south to east to west which were following the same traditional sampradayams??

gosh,such vitriol for kanchi mutt leaders is un-becoming in this forum.give some respect to them and take some respect back,is my humble request to you and people like you!!

sb

 

[palindrome]

or is it only kanchi mutts

how many mutts are there in the state of tamil nadu? how many of them are involved in programmes involving dalits?

 

[s007bala]

palindrome

neither mahaswamigal nor i nor anyone needs to be on any pedestal merely to understahnd whether an action such as seeing widows is a vedic or non-vedic social norm. i wud now like to leave it here. and i request you to stop on this topic as well.

as long as people do not deride mahaswamigal in the forum or in general kanchi mutt leaders or any mutt leaders,i am ok with that thought process.but if people go on bashing religious leaders,when none in this forum is anywhere near such saathwic atmas,i think its my duty to defend.
what you perceive as social norm is your perception and leave it at that,instead of writing about vedic concepts,shastras,sampradayas...etc and when called to explain,you escape by saying you cannot divulge as 'secret vows'?.utter nonsense,and i did PM and you never had the courtesy to reply back,shows your state of mind and manners.

i did not say science. nor did i mention western cultures. it is your presumption. the vedas talk of 33 elements of nature which when increased in power are equal to the strength of 3 crore or 33 crore gods. And how did that idea get propagated as? even now some people beelive there are some crores of gods. And who is responsible for this wrong interpretation? Is is science ? hope you understand that sages and seers are human too. one may not be able to understand what is being conveyed metaphorically, not refer to all scriptures, and convey or write something that is not close to the author's intended meaning.

sages and seers are exactly that,and ordinary human beings like you & me cannot fathom nor comprehend their actions with our mundance sense faculties.so,instead of analysing them ie sages & seers,plz analyse your own 'self' first and leave them alone,is my humble request to you!

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

how many mutts are there in the state of tamil nadu? how many of them are involved in programmes involving dalits?

how many aren't there?are the dalits being only catered by kanchi mutt's? then your reserach is partial!So,many iyengar jeers,madhava gurus,...etc are involved in uplifting not just dalits but the downtrodden of all communities.So,stop your animosity of kanchi mutts,in writings here?its a disgraceful act.

sb

 

[palindrome]

palindrome


as long as people do not deride mahaswamigal in the forum or in general kanchi mutt leaders or any mutt leaders,i am ok with that thought process.but if people go on bashing religious leaders,when none in this forum is anywhere near such saathwic atmas,i think its my duty to defend.
what you perceive as social norm is your perception and leave it at that,instead of writing about vedic concepts,shastras,sampradayas...etc and when called to explain,you escape by saying you cannot divulge as 'secret vows'?.utter nonsense,and i did PM and you never had the courtesy to reply back,shows your state of mind and manners.

sages and seers are exactly that,and ordinary human beings like you & me cannot fathom nor comprehend their actions with our mundance sense faculties.so,instead of analysing them ie sages & seers,plz analyse your own 'self' first and leave them alone,is my humble request to you!

sb

You got me wrong.

You cannot stop anyone from saying whether a practice is vedic or not. And I hold paramacharya is very high esteem. Merely by mentioning something one is not causing any slight to anyone.

If it bothers you that much, why don't you provide verses from any scripture that says a widow must be kept away from a sanyasi or brahmachari? Mind you, am not even asking for a reference to a mathadipathi.

And please learn to follow what you advice to others.

 

[palindrome]

how many aren't there?are the dalits being only catered by kanchi mutt's? then your reserach is partial!So,many iyengar jeers,madhava gurus,...etc are involved in uplifting not just dalits but the downtrodden of all communities.So,stop your animosity of kanchi mutts,in writings here?its a disgraceful act.

sb

am not doing any research on how many mutts are involved in serving the dalits.

i have no animosity for the kanchi mutt. it is better you stick to the content instead of going after the poster. do not assume you are the only one that knows to be rude.

 

[s007bala]

palindrome

>>You got me wrong.

You cannot stop anyone from saying whether a practice is vedic or not. And I hold paramacharya is very high esteem. Merely by mentioning something one is not causing any slight to anyone.

If it bothers you that much, why don't you provide verses from any scripture that says a widow must be kept away from a sanyasi or brahmachari? Mind you, am not even asking for a reference to a mathadipathi.

And please learn to follow what you advice to others. <<

My issue is leave Kanchi Mutt leaders alone and other such religious leaders of various sampradayas.As for actions ,i told you sampradayam,which is based on vedam and other related scriptures.Don't you think,you ought to ask them religious leaders for such actions,instead of second guessing about verses in scriptures?And if you want,i can ask you to read hindu dharma,or go to the links in advaitham thread and read it yourself to understand.I certainly expect you to read and understand yourself first.

sb

 

[palindrome]

palindrome

>>You got me wrong.

You cannot stop anyone from saying whether a practice is vedic or not. And I hold paramacharya is very high esteem. Merely by mentioning something one is not causing any slight to anyone.

If it bothers you that much, why don't you provide verses from any scripture that says a widow must be kept away from a sanyasi or brahmachari? Mind you, am not even asking for a reference to a mathadipathi.

And please learn to follow what you advice to others. <<

My issue is leave Kanchi Mutt leaders alone and other such religious leaders of various sampradayas.As for actions ,i told you sampradayam,which is based on vedam and other related scriptures.Don't you think,you ought to ask them religious leaders for such actions,instead of second guessing about verses in scriptures?And if you want,i can ask you to read hindu dharma,or go to the links in advaitham thread and read it yourself to understand.I certainly expect you to read and understand yourself first.

sb

i have read. thanks.

there will always be a whole lot who will comment. You cannot stop anyone from it. How many people are you going to stop?

 

[s007bala]

re

am not doing any research on how many mutts are involved in serving the dalits.

i have no animosity for the kanchi mutt. it is better you stick to the content instead of going after the poster. do not assume you are the only one that knows to be rude.

i have told you my issue.and you clarified that you have no animus for kanchi mutt leaders.i am happy.so move on.since religious leaders follow sampradaya their actions must be viewed in context with that.in modern times such sampradayams are outdated and prolly they might or might not change their sampradaya.who is anyone to question their freedom?When someone comes to my house,i expect a certain decorum,if they dont follow my rules,i will simply say get out of my house!

sb

 

[s007bala]

>> have read. thanks.

there will always be a whole lot who will comment. You cannot stop anyone from it. How many people are you going to stop? <<

As long it takes.Its my kula mathru gurus.They are my family,and i will defend them untill i have strength in my body.

sb

 

[kunjuppu]

sesh,

thank you for your thoughtful reply. your last line sums up your train of this post, i think?

my own post was a culmination of several thought processes over this forum over a period, across threads.

personally, in many ways, thoughts and deeds and ideals, i am far outside the spectrum of this forum, to daringly express any such views. would simply not be right, and if i should ever attempt to do so, i would put myself in such a position as to whose-sanity would be questioned. questioned hard too, i believe.

i have no answers. only imperfect conundrums. while i am by blood and ancestrage tied to our community, i have always had the urge to break away from those very constrictions that has defined us in the past.

i wish to be part of a broader and harmonius member of the bigger tamil clan. tamil first. hindu next. brahmin, coming somewhere, and not necessarily so. sounds so simple. but in the context of current tamil society, and in reflection of our relationships to fellow tamil tribes, a distant unachievable pipe dream. so complete, i think, is our isolation from the tamil mainstream.

is it our fault? others fault? everyone's fault? we can go on, and come to all lot of conclusions. but no agreements, i think.

in this context, your last line summation, though poignant, might ring the bell of truth, from my perspective at this point in time.

thank you sir.

God Bless.

shri kunjuppu,

your observations are spot on...!!!

the bone of contention in our vedic philosophy has been the "equality", or perhaps, the "inequality" factor...

but what is this factor all about? how do we say that equality has been achieved? the vedas have never said that one soul is subordinate to another; it is by virtue of their deeds that respect, status and honour are bestowed on a person...

there is an element of truth in that brahmins have discriminated against the other castes - situational practices...

also, there is an element of truth in that christians/muslims have used the meaning of our vedas to suit their cause, ie., of conversion... homogenization...

in the current scenario, due to a combination of events, favourable or unfavourable, we (brahmins) do treat others as equal... but should it have no boundaries? or should it have? the notion of equality seems to have gone to the extreme in that now, just because of being a brahmin, actions of the individual are seen primarily as prejudiced or biased...

if a brahmin wants to keep his tradition - it is inequality as he is following the vedas and shasthras which have promoted discrimination...

if a brahmin chooses to marry within his caste, it is inequality as he is averse to the other castes even though he calls others equal...

if a brahmin wants to preserve the tradition in a temple, it is termed a inequality as he is seen as keeping a chosen job for himself based on birth...

if a brahmin studies sanskrit, he is seen as denigrating tamil (w.r.t. TN), and that is seen as signs of brahminical dominance... aryan culture and so on...

all that is brahminical is seen as either dominating, oppressing or practicing inequality...

i am not talking of exceptions here, neither of the opinions of those smaller numbers who do not think as above, but of the majority...

the trend is only to erase all caste notions, which in the past have led to notions of higher/lower status... the non-brahmins think that unless the identity of caste is erased, the idea of inequality exists... and hence the continuous and persisted assault on brahmins and brahminical practices...

i need not mention here, that this is what the papal or islamic forces would also want...

it maybe that we do not practice life the way originally intended in our scriptures, as different groups interpret it differently... but is that sufficient to disprove our actions?

does reverse discrimination solve the issue here? there has been a targetted attack on brahmins in TN all along these years... they have been uprooted from the position which they had been perceived to have enjoyed since time immemorial...

other castes have their own preferences, traditions and cultures (like the chettiars, gounders, thevars etc), but they are left alone as they are non-brahmins....

what is it that brahmins must do to say that they are not practicing discrimination or inequality? become casteless?

only when brahmins cut their yangyopaveetham or refrain from calling themselves brahmins, will this feud end... lose your identity of a brahmin - that is the implicit call here...

regards,

 

[kunjuppu]

krs,

as always, a gentleman and a scholar!

thanks for your detailed response. i think we are all on the same wavelength, though might be fractionally differ in the tunes and the chords.

thank you again sir...

 

[hariharan1972]

I am aghast as to how some of us are able to manage the contradiction of abolishing the caste equations but at the same time maintain the regional parochialism.

In the flat world that we are in how can we encourage regional tendencies which is the main plank of the venal dravidian political system.

It is not sufficient to disown Manu and the caste system ; That is no claim to fame. In a true sense, now is the time like no other to disown the "neo-manus" aka the dravidian bosses who peddle caste for their political gains.

This is the time to think as "Indians First" at the very basic and considering the fact that increasingly the economic well being is so tightly integrated and inter linked, perhaps the case for thinking as "Humans First" (decent one that is, so MK-Mayawati-Mulayams pl excuse) is getting stronger by the minute.

It is foolish to even believe that a successful, egalitarian and a just nation can be built by fanning regional fanaticism. The idea of a nation will be successful if and only if the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

I outrightly reject the idea of Tamil First and i dare say that such a strain of thinking goes against the very grain of nationalism. Without the idea of India succeeding, i cant see how regional aspirations can be fulfilled.

It has to be India First for every Indian.

 

[suvarchas]

I am aghast as to how some of us are able to manage the contradiction of abolishing the caste equations but at the same time maintain the regional parochialism.

In the flat world that we are in how can we encourage regional tendencies which is the main plank of the venal dravidian political system.

It is not sufficient to disown Manu and the caste system ; That is no claim to fame. In a true sense, now is the time like no other to disown the "neo-manus" aka the dravidian bosses who peddle caste for their political gains.

This is the time to think as "Indians First" at the very basic and considering the fact that increasingly the economic well being is so tightly integrated and inter linked, perhaps the case for thinking as "Humans First" (decent one that is, so MK-Mayawati-Mulayams pl excuse) is getting stronger by the minute.

It is foolish to even believe that a successful, egalitarian and a just nation can be built by fanning regional fanaticism. The idea of a nation will be successful if and only if the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

I outrightly reject the idea of Tamil First and i dare say that such a strain of thinking goes against the very grain of nationalism. Without the idea of India succeeding, i cant see how regional aspirations can be fulfilled.

It has to be India First for every Indian.

There is no need for us to disown Manu and caste system.Afterall Vaivasvata Manu was only a Kshatriya and that too could have been a Tamil King given the fact that he lived on the banks of Krita mala(another name of Vaigai)
There is so much of Tamasha going on celebrating the receipt petitions from people as Manu needhi day after Manu needhi Cholan who got his name as he implemented Manu's smirithis.our Dravidian ignoramus would never think of all these things.Manu dharma was relevant when Vedic dharma was practised.Now it is not relevant,but nevrthe less Manu was a truly a Rishi of the highest order who could not have been partial as is being accused by modern feminists or other caste people

 

[palindrome]

There is no need for us to disown Manu and caste system.Afterall Vaivasvata Manu was only a Kshatriya and that too could have been a Tamil King given the fact that he lived on the banks of Krita mala(another name of Vaigai)
There is so much of Tamasha going on celebrating the receipt petitions from people as Manu needhi day after Manu needhi Cholan who got his name as he implemented Manu's smirithis.our Dravidian ignoramus would never think of all these things.Manu dharma was relevant when Vedic dharma was practised.Now it is not relevant,but nevrthe less Manu was a truly a Rishi of the highest order who could not have been partial as is being accused by modern feminists or other caste people

Please could you explain abt Krita Mala as another name for Vaigai.

Perhaps we are talking about a time approx. 20,000 to 15,000 years before present that was mesolithic in the levant as well as india when hunting and ritual scenes existed throught out the indian land mass.

The incoming of certain groups around 8000 - 10,000 years before present coincides with the shift from mesolithic nomadic rock art to neolithic farming settlements in india. This is the time when hunting groups as well as farming settlements existed side by side. Since there are verses in the rig that present both hunting and farming scenarios, it is very likely that the rig corresponds to this time period (late mesolithic early neolithic). But probably got written down much later.

Manu came very much later around 200BC. By this time enough upheavels had taken place. As regards the location of aryavarta, please note verses from manu smrithi below:

That land, created by the gods, which lies between the two divine rivers Sarasvati and Drishadvati, the (sages) call Brahmavarta.

The custom handed down in regular succession (since time immemorial) among the (four chief) castes (varna) and the mixed (races) of that country, is called the conduct of virtuous men.

The plain of the Kurus, the (country of the) Matsyas, Pankalas, and Surasenakas, these (form), indeed, the country of the Brahmarshis (Brahmanical sages, which ranks) immediately after Brahmavarta.

From a Brahmana, born in that country, let all men on earth learn their several usages.

That (country) which (lies) between the Himavat and the Vindhya (mountains) to the east of Prayaga and to the west of Vinasana (the place where the river Sarasvati disappears) is called Madhyadesa (the central region).

But (the tract) between those two mountains (just mentioned), which (extends) as far as the eastern and the western oceans, the wise call Aryavarta (the country of the Aryans).

That land where the black antelope naturally roams, one must know to be first for the performance of sacrifices; (the tract) different from that (is) the country of the Mlekkhas (barbarians).

The Black Antelope also called blackbuck was once found throughout india. But if we were to consider manu's madhya desa, it wud roughly correspond to the region b/w himalayas and vindhya between prayaga (allahabad / banaras) and some place called vinasana. Arya varta was described as a tract (probably beginning from) within madhyadesa and extending towards oceans (arabian sea and bay of bengal). This wud roughly correspond to the current stretch from gujarat to bengal.

The Black Antelope was (is) found in that stretch from Gujarat and Central India (MP, Jharkhand). But it is not known to have been found in north east india and is not known to have been common in bengal either. However, it was (is) present in Orissa. The original arya varta could therefore refer to the stretch that included orissa.

It wud be a matter of conjecture to include the lands below those as aryavarta unless Manu meant the area "far as the eastern and the western oceans, the wise call Aryavarta" to include the entire coast lines of arabian sea and bay of bengal (and thereby including all of south india). And truly Manu did not seem to make any demarcation when he quoted an area as far as eastern and western oceans.

Therefore am curious to know info from various classical tamil sources. It wud be great if you could provide sources for Krita Mala as another name for Vaigai as well as provide any other info from various tamil sources that can possibly throw light on manu as an aryan king who wrote his laws seated somewhere in south india (no lemuria please, nobody survived from kerguelan 130 million years ago). Btw, as an aside, please also note that mixed races existed at the time of manu smrithi even in brahmavarta.

Thanks.

 

[suvarchas]

Please could you explain abt Krita Mala as another name for Vaigai.

Perhaps we are talking about a time approx. 20,000 to 15,000 years before present that was mesolithic in the levant as well as india when hunting and ritual scenes existed throught out the indian land mass.

The incoming of certain groups around 8000 - 10,000 years before present coincides with the shift from mesolithic nomadic rock art to neolithic farming settlements in india. This is the time when hunting groups as well as farming settlements existed side by side. Since there are verses in the rig that present both hunting and farming scenarios, it is very likely that the rig corresponds to this time period (late mesolithic early neolithic). But probably got written down much later.

Manu came very much later around 200BC. By this time enough upheavels had taken place. As regards the location of aryavarta, please note verses from manu smrithi below:



The Black Antelope also called blackbuck was once found throughout india. But if we were to consider manu's madhya desa, it wud roughly correspond to the region b/w himalayas and vindhya between prayaga (allahabad / banaras) and some place called vinasana. Arya varta was described as a tract (probably beginning from) within madhyadesa and extending towards oceans (arabian sea and bay of bengal). This wud roughly correspond to the current stretch from gujarat to bengal.

The Black Antelope was (is) found in that stretch from Gujarat and Central India (MP, Jharkhand). But it is not known to have been found in north east india and is not known to have been common in bengal either. However, it was (is) present in Orissa. The original arya varta could therefore refer to the stretch that included orissa.

It wud be a matter of conjecture to include the lands below those as aryavarta unless Manu meant the area "far as the eastern and the western oceans, the wise call Aryavarta" to include the entire coast lines of arabian sea and bay of bengal (and thereby including all of south india). And truly Manu did not seem to make any demarcation when he quoted an area as far as eastern and western oceans.

Therefore am curious to know info from various classical tamil sources. It wud be great if you could provide sources for Krita Mala as another name for Vaigai as well as provide any other info from various tamil sources that can possibly throw light on manu as an aryan king who wrote his laws seated somewhere in south india (no lemuria please, nobody survived from kerguelan 130 million years ago). Btw, as an aside, please also note that mixed races existed at the time of manu smrithi even in brahmavarta.

Thanks.

Dear Palindrome,
Iam quite elated and surprised at your research.I was quoting from the discourses of Maha svamigal.To corraborate the same,there is one temple near the central bus stand in Madurai which is dedicated to Koodal Azhagar where Periyazhwar sang Pallandu.This is one of 108 Divya kshetras for Mahavishnu.The theertha for the Kshetra is called as Kritamala which runs as a tributary of Vaigai.Now it is more or less like gutter running near the central Bus stand near The Madura College.But tell me Manu was not a single person as per puranas.The present Manu is Vaivasvatha Manu

 

[palindrome]

Dear Palindrome,
Iam quite elated and surprised at your research.I was quoting from the discourses of Maha svamigal.To corraborate the same,there is one temple near the central bus stand in Madurai which is dedicated to Koodal Azhagar where Periyazhwar sang Pallandu.This is one of 108 Divya kshetras for Mahavishnu.The theertha for the Kshetra is called as Kritamala which runs as a tributary of Vaigai.Now it is more or less like gutter running near the central Bus stand near The Madura College.But tell me Manu was not a single person as per puranas.The present Manu is Vaivasvatha Manu

It may not be possible to find or ascertain info about other Manus. We are only looking at info for current age.

I met some monks (of north india) that considered south india as aryavarta. Therefore came my point of curiosity.

One of the monks had explained the metaphor of women in various verses of manu smrithi very beautifully...Whoever was Manu, He certainly had intended women to be treated very-very well...far from the accusations of chauvinism that he is accussed of.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Ahh... metaphors and similes... :typing:

 

[pbkhema]

I am more of a readre of books than a discusser."Manu" is not one person.Manusmriti is a compilation by several individualpeople.Manusmriti is the general There are other Smritis which also lay down the principples for all human beings.Yanjavalika Smriti is attributed to 7-8 Century AD Most Vadamas follow his commentator Apastamba's sutras.The Puritanical (if I may use the word )achara ismoreprevalent southof the Vindya than in the north.To be a Brahmin you are supposed to maintain certain standras .