about brahmins

[palindrome]

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See one set of traditional scholars believe the Kali-Yuga begins approximately 5000 years before. Dating of various events in Mhabharata is posted by SB in another thread.

Elders are of opinion that Sage Vyasa an incarnation of Lord Narayana divided the Vedas and complied it into 4 vedas, before that Vedas are called KEERAVANI , there is no distinction like Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharvana Vedas.

These events happened app 5000 years before and from that time on Smartas follow as per their Sva Shaka. You see the Nitya Karmas like Sandhyavandhanam got refined after this division. Even during Kurukshetra War the soldiers preformed Sandhyavandanam... instead of offering water due to non-availability, they offered sand we read.


Ofcourse we alos learn that Sri Aadi Sankara was born in a brahmin family - meaning Smartas exist prior to the era of Sri Aadi Sankara . In fact it is Kumara Sheela defeated many Buddhist much before the arrival of Sri Aadi Sankara to establish the Karma kanda of Jaimini. A book called "The Vedas" By Paramacharaya throws light on our History please read that.

Sorry your "current smartas" - I can't quite understand that.

Regards

I did not say brahmins did not exist before the time of Adi Shankara. Please read my post to sheshadri above.

During kurukshetra war the norms followed by all hindus were nearly similar. All hindus performed sandhyavandana and so on. The only non-vedic hindus during this period were those who lived beyond the north west of current India.

During Ramayana, no rishi would pick up a weapon and kill a rakshasa even in the most dire circumstance. They wud request a protector like Rama or Lakshmana to kill the rakshasa on their behalf. But in the Mahabharat time, a so called brahmin was teaching archery to students. Warriors supposedly became brahmins by this time. The class of brahmins has always existed. The people who constituted that class has been different at different points of time.

 

[palindrome]

But were there no brahmins who followed the smrithis before Adi Sankaracharya (AS)???

The current smarthas might be a mix of brahmins from mimansakas or shrauthis... but again, that does not mean that all smarthas today are only people who have come into the smartha fold because of AS...

So the inference that current smarthas were not there before AS does not hold water; only that some non-smarthas have been included into the smartha fold of Adhvaitha after AS....

There were brahmins reading the smritis before Adi Shankara. The topic was only about the current smartha community.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

There were brahmins reading the smritis before Adi Shankara. The topic was only about the current smartha community.

This issue appears to hold an emotional stance for the current brahmin community. And I therefore refrain from sharing info.

As regards current smarthas, it would be better if you were to read up on it yourself. And also on the origins of Kanchi mutt.

Thank you.

Am amused as to how quickly you put down a normal discussion as having emotional overtures...!!!

Anyway, it is your perception...

 

[malgova.mango]

even today sandhayavandanams is a must for all the 3 varnas.

anyway....

 

[palindrome]

From byegone times they have been brahmins and following the scripture(Smriti) of the Sakha (Veda) they be;onged to. Later many smritis came into being and without going into details Mitakshara (which is followed in most of India) and Dayabhaga which is confined to esat India.The source for Mitakshara is Apastamba Sutra.But in the South particularly in Tamil Nadu though for all practical purposes the Mitakshara is followed for Amavasya Tarpanam etc some follow Baudanya Sutra (Smriti).Sama Vedins follow a diferent Smriti.Any Brahmin who knows his ABHIVADHEYA correctly will know which Sutra he follows.But that is all Historic.After the Hindu Sucession Act and Marriage Act came in 1956 everything is academic except when one performs rituals .
PBK

Brahmin class has always existed. Customs and traditions were not always the same throughout. Brahmin class existed even before Vishwamitra, Atreya, etc rishis. There were also periods of interregnum. Anybody who gets initiatied into brahmacharya is given abhivadeya by his father or guru. Guru shishya lineages continues to be passed on by some sanyasa sampradayas as a lineage even now.

 

[malgova.mango]

seri poona poittu porathu..

eppa yarum, svarga prapthikkum engale, sanyasathukkum thavikkale...

 

[s007bala]

re

I do not think anyone can find sanyasa vows and details of their various ceremonies documented anywhere, either books or online. Because they are under a vow to maintain secrecy. But you can meet sanyasis and get a fair picture. I have met sanyasis of the swami order. It is true that they regard all women as divine mother. Just go to the Ramakrishna Mission and ask any swami there for a basic idea.

Adi Shankara was seeing Sarada Devi in every woman. Sarasavani or ubhaya bharathi was travelling with him and his group doing the cooking for them. Nobody's sanyasam comes under danger because of a woman - married, widow, young or old. If MM seems to suggest that a sanyasi's sanyasam comes under danger because of women, then you should ask him. How to justify that sumangali or kumari is permissable but widow is not.

So,you are second guessing and hearsay,isn't it?

You say <<When you as an idividual is unable to be open about your own identity,how will you have the common-sense or maturity to know about sanyasis?unless you yourself are a sanyasi?giving your gyaanam here online.>>

Can I ask you to provide your own identity here? Reg common sense or maturity, I would think that it is people like you that ruin the society with falsified interpretations and rude behaviour while calling yourself a brahmin, when others very well know to seperate rice from shaft.

Please remember - if you going to attack the poster, instead of sticking to the points of discussion, you are going to get it back just as well. Do not under estimate others as week and do not expect other to keep quiet.

Ok,i deserve your reply in this manner,as my writings reflected entirely different what i had in my mind and has made you mis-understand.I am sorry.

Neverthless,identity was only a tool that i was using,to drive home a point to you.When one does not understand one-self first,how in heaven can one understand another human-beings-self?:sorry:

Classic topical issue is the spat between HDG H H JS with Dr.J.Jayalalithaa?.His holiness is a jagathguru who is preaching hinduism( Sanathana Dharma=advaitham ) for the welfare of the world,not just TN or India!Dr.J.Jayalalithaa is sending a strong message,that no one is above law,if we want to take it in a positive manner or she is acting as per 'dwesham' over his holinessess!!Isn't it?

She is jathi brahmin from karnataka and his holiness before getting enrolled to sanyasi order,is also from jathi brahmin ( as hh is beyond the jathis now ).Despite being far away from all the happenings in India,i was hurt & upset what Dr.J.Jayalalithaa did?Yet Indian society has allowed her to survive and even contest in elections,which a very great thing about democracy in India.

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

palindrome, mm, ss

I have used your conversation posts and am trying to give my perspective.If my language offends anyone,i apologise upfront itself,as nothing is personal.

>>How to justify that sumangali or kumari is permissable but widow is not.<<

Sanyasa Vows,which is a secret ,as you yourself admitted to it.Broadly i wrote as as sampradayam of Kanchi Math.

>>Aacharams or vratams are to realise the aspirations alright. But paramacharya is considered to have already realised those aspirations. He could have set an example. It is unfortunate he did not. And I wonder why. I am now seeing him as a follower not a leader. <<

He has set an example and expects his sishyas to follow.Now,if sishyas are honest to Mahaswamigal,they will follow or if they are dis-honest to Mahaswamigal they will not follow.Either way Mahaswamigal is untouched or unaffected, by the sishyas behaviour,isn't it?

>>And ask yourself
a) who were the people following the shastras before the smartas came into being.
b) if some people indulged in interpolations, are those interpolations meant to be thrown out now or followed? <<

Smartas have been there for time immemorial.The dates that we have is nothing but approximations of various sampradayas.If people were not profiled as smartas then they were called something else.Its debatable issue.Interpolations have been happening time and again,and this truth must get acknowledged for saner sensibilities to prevail for generations to come.

>>Leaving aside about setting example,
Who are the followers of the sanyasi order. What are the various sanyasi orders? <<

Sanyasi orders are many in number.A wikipedia search or a google search will give infr get initiated with some sampradaya as sishya and learn from a guru.

>>Smartas did not exist before 500ad. Smarta religion is derived from the ekadandi sampradaya. Ekadandis to this day do not follow untouchability or varna system. Why did smarthas follow them at that time then? <<

Who are ekadandi sampradaya?Are they our Udupi & surrounding Maths of Karnataka?If so,let me research and get back to you,as i have had darshanam of some Maths there,if not all.

>>Yes the smrithis, upanishads were composed before the puranic age. The smarthas were not around that time. Only the various (other) monastic traditions were around at that time.
Its not 500 ad actually, it should be 800ad. Please read the Shringeri mutt's dating below: http://www.sringerisharadapeetham.org/
[[The Peetham is the first and foremost of the four Peethams established by the renowned 8th century philosopher saint Sri Adi Shankara, the principal exponent of Advaita (non-dualism).]]
Please let me know of any information you have to show that the smarthas existed before 500ad. I would be glad for it. Since I am collecting information on the various sanyasa traditions of hindusim.<<

When it comes different Maths established by Adi Sanakara,there are controversies of history.Its best we stop indulging on such controversy,which divided us as a community for other non-brahmins to take advantage and make us weak.Thanks.

>>You explained the sanyasa tradition within advaitha and then gave your last sentence. It is obvious that you seem to think you understand the content, but do not know the origin.
Sri Adi Shankara sought to organize the ekadandi sampradaya into 4 brahmanical mutts (though the ekadandis veered off into founding their own ashrams and guru-shishya lineages).
The ekadandi sampradaya has always been taking in anyone who sought to be a brahmachari and sanyasi. The people at that time who became affiliated with the 4 mutts were from a cross-section of people.
The current smarthas descended from ancestors who were initiated into brahmacharyam by these 4 mutts.
Current smarthas have no connection with those people who were reading the shrutis and smrithis during Ramayana and Mahabharata.
If you can provide any literature to show that current smarthas have existed before the establishment of the 4 mutts, that would greatly help.<<

I get the feeling that you attach rather greater importance to smrithis and not for sruthis.If one were to listen to sruthis of achaaryaals of various sampradayas,it is mind boggling.Practical things to do is,zero down to a sampradaya opinion and listen to the guru.

>>I said the current smarthas did not exist before this period. There were brahmins who existed before this period. Adi Shankara defeated and absorbed some of them into the smartha fraternity. Not all. Shrauta and Mimasaka traditions have continued to exist independent of the smarthas. The current smarthas are a mix of those brahmins who got integrated into the smartha religion as well as those ekadandis who affiliated themselves with the 4 mathas established by Adi Shankara. Until this point, movement into and out of brahminhood was not static.<<

Yes,many things happened in the past.Lets come to present and live in present,as there are extremely tall gurus with knowledge in all sampradayas,and finally one will have to take sides,if one wants to be sane.

>>I was responding to MM's question about smarthas existing from Ramayana and Mahabharata times. The current smarthas did not exist then.
I did not say brahmins did not exist before the time of Adi Shankara. Please read my post to sheshadri above.
During kurukshetra war the norms followed by all hindus were nearly similar. All hindus performed sandhyavandana and so on. The only non-vedic hindus during this period were those who lived beyond the north west of current India.
During Ramayana, no rishi would pick up a weapon and kill a rakshasa even in the most dire circumstance. They wud request a protector like Rama or Lakshmana to kill the rakshasa on their behalf. But Parashurama changed it. And in the Mahabharat time, a so called brahmin was teaching archery to students. Warriors became brahmins by this time. The class of brahmins has always existed. The people who constituted that class has been different at different points of time.<<

There are so many controversy surrounding the dating of Mahabharatham,which reminds me of Mahaswamigal saying about datings of the past using modern tools to ascertain them.

>>My post was about the current smarthas. It came about because an action of a mutt head was in question. I put forth my views based on sanyasa traditions. And the topic moved on. But I would like to stop here. I do not wish to continue posting any further on the issue of the existence of the current smartha community, mutts and so on. If I were to put out details merely to prove a point to you, the result might perhaps be disastrous. Information can be misused. For me, this is merely history and information. But not all will see it that way. Therefore excuse me. Thank you. <<

Cool.

>>There were brahmins reading the smritis before Adi Shankara. The topic was only about the current smartha community.
This issue appears to hold an emotional stance for the current brahmin community. And I therefore refrain from sharing info.
As regards current smarthas, it would be better if you were to read up on it yourself. And also on the origins of Kanchi mutt.
Thank you. <<

Lets be current and listen to our sampradayic gurus,as thats final for all of us.My request,please refrain from deriding saathwich aatmas like Mahaswamigal and be judgemental.Thanks so much.

sb

 

[palindrome]

So,you are second guessing and hearsay,isn't it?



Ok,i deserve your reply in this manner,as my writings reflected entirely different what i had in my mind and has made you mis-understand.I am sorry.

Neverthless,identity was only a tool that i was using,to drive home a point to you.When one does not understand one-self first,how in heaven can one understand another human-beings-self?:sorry:

Classic topical issue is the spat between HDG H H JS with Dr.J.Jayalalithaa?.His holiness is a jagathguru who is preaching hinduism( Sanathana Dharma=advaitham ) for the welfare of the world,not just TN or India!Dr.J.Jayalalithaa is sending a strong message,that no one is above law,if we want to take it in a positive manner or she is acting as per 'dwesham' over his holinessess!!Isn't it?

She is jathi brahmin from karnataka and his holiness before getting enrolled to sanyasi order,is also from jathi brahmin ( as hh is beyond the jathis now ).Despite being far away from all the happenings in India,i was hurt & upset what Dr.J.Jayalalithaa did?Yet Indian society has allowed her to survive and even contest in elections,which a very great thing about democracy in India.

sb

No second guessing. Only putting forth my points in a way that will leave options open as it should, and also because it must not cause hurt to those who take such things seriously.

Reg Jayalalitha, there is nothing called a jathi brahmin. It is a term for those who wish to be called brahmin without following anything required to be one.

If someone had a great grand father who was an IAS officer, he too does not become an IAS officer automatically. It only makes his options of becoming one better. If he become one, he can call himself an IAS officer. If he does not, he cannot call himself an IAS officer. He can only call himself the great grand son of an IAS officer.

Similarly, if a boy is born to a father who became a brahmin and that boy does not follow the brahmin path, then he ceases being a brahmin. This is what paramacharya was conveying in asking everyone who was born from fathers who became brahmins, to study the vedas. He knew their children cannot be called brahmins if they stopped studying vedas and merely called themselves jathi brahmins, a meaningless term that does disservice to those that follow the path truly.

 

[s007bala]

palindrome

No second guessing. Only putting forth my points in a way that will leave options open as it should, and also because it must not cause hurt to those who take such things seriously.
Reg Jayalalitha, there is nothing called a jathi brahmin. It is a term for those who wish to be called brahmin without following anything required to be one.

I think you are not aware whats going in India then.Caste or jathi is a firmly set imprint in the hearts & minds of people.Just like in Europe you have a different nomenclatures or Canada or USA or Russian Communist blocs or Chinese,Japanese.....etc.The entire world world is revolving under some classifications or labelling system.

If someone had a great grand father who was an IAS officer, he too does not become an IAS officer automatically. It only makes his options of becoming one better. If he become one, he can call himself an IAS officer. If he does not, he cannot call himself an IAS officer. He can only call himself the great grand son of an IAS officer.

Bingo! you are correct.

Similarly, if a boy is born to a father who became a brahmin and that boy does not follow the brahmin path, then he ceases being a brahmin. This is what paramacharya was conveying in asking everyone who was born from fathers who became brahmins, to study the vedas. He knew their children cannot be called brahmins if they stopped studying vedas and merely called themselves jathi brahmins, a meaningless term that does disservice to those that follow the path truly.

Studying of vedas is one of the many things that Mahaswamigal has asked brahmans to do.That is why he went about setting veda patashalas.But unfortunately,such conventional practices is not bringing in Mahalakshmi's blessings in term's of wealth.Therefore families who like to enjoy material comforts leave such practices to people who are dedicated.

In that,anyone can learn-there is no bar to learn vedas provided one passes the test for admission.I have no problem in calling myself as shudran,as per definition ,that is exactly who i am=a coolie=a self-salaried biz person.

sb

 

[palindrome]

palindrome, mm, ss
I have used your conversation posts and am trying to give my perspective.If my language offends anyone,i apologise upfront itself,as nothing is personal.
sb

1) <<Sanyasa Vows,which is a secret ,as you yourself admitted to it.Broadly i wrote as as sampradayam of Kanchi Math>>.

According to one sanyasa tradition, the sampradayam of Kanchi mutt is no different from the sanyasa sampradayams of the ekadandis since they are iniitated under the saraswati order.

2) <<He has set an example and expects his sishyas to follow.Now,if sishyas are honest to Mahaswamigal,they will follow or if they are dis-honest to Mahaswamigal they will not follow.Either way Mahaswamigal is untouched or unaffected, by the sishyas behaviour,isn't it?>>

True. When one becomes a mathadipathi, the norms followed by one wud differ from regular sanyasis. Therefore there was nothing to stop paramacharya from seeing widows. However, it appears that he was conforming to the wishes of his devotees and attendents in adhering to a social non-vedic norm.

3) <<Smartas have been there for time immemorial.The dates that we have is nothing but approximations of various sampradayas.If people were not profiled as smartas then they were called something else.Its debatable issue.Interpolations have been happening time and again,and this truth must get acknowledged for saner sensibilities to prevail for generations to come.>>

Current smarthas were not around at that time. As mentioned in posts above, current smarthas are a result of a wide cross-section of people.

4) <<Who are ekadandi sampradaya?Are they our Udupi & surrounding Maths of Karnataka?If so,let me research and get back to you,as i have had darshanam of some Maths there,if not all.>>

It is amusing that you and MM chose to reply to my posts without knowing the origin of the two monastic traditions. Yes, all 4 mutts established by Adi Shankara are following the ekadandi sampradaya. Ekadandis are generally advaithins. Tridandis are generally associated with the vishistadvaithins. Both ekadandis and tridandis are vedic monastic traditions. They existed before present mutts came into existence.

5) <<When it comes different Maths established by Adi Sanakara,there are controversies of history.Its best we stop indulging on such controversy,which divided us as a community for other non-brahmins to take advantage and make us weak.Thanks.>>

We can stop. Because our emotions get involved in such things. But historians do not stop. Indologists do not stop. There is no controversy. There are only claims. And clarification for those claims is just "information" that can be obtained from various sources. Nobody can divide you or make you feel week unless you allow yourself to feel that way.

6) <<I get the feeling that you attach rather greater importance to smrithis and not for sruthis.If one were to listen to sruthis of achaaryaals of various sampradayas,it is mind boggling.Practical things to do is,zero down to a sampradaya opinion and listen to the guru.>>

No I am not attaching any importance to any texts.

7) <<Yes,many things happened in the past.Lets come to present and live in present,as there are extremely tall gurus with knowledge in all sampradayas,and finally one will have to take sides,if one wants to be sane.>>

One may wish to take sides, not for sanity, but to keep his/ her image which stems from social ego. It has nothing to do with gurus or sampradayas.

8) <<There are so many controversy surrounding the dating of Mahabharatham,which reminds me of Mahaswamigal saying about datings of the past using modern tools to ascertain them.>>

Reg mahabharatam and not paramacharya - apart from dating, anything can become a controversy when one group makes a claim that hugely differes from info available from most sources. Modern tools need not be used at all in some cases.

9) <<Lets be current and listen to our sampradayic gurus,as thats final for all of us.My request,please refrain from deriding saathwich aatmas like Mahaswamigal and be judgemental.Thanks so much.>>

Agreed. Being judgemental is wrong.

I also have a request, is you do not wish me to reply to your posts, please refrain from addressing me in your posts. If you address me, I cannot refrain from replying or responding. I had already made it clear that going into details will not result in good. And wished to stop there. Now, I have responded because your posts were addressed to me. If you wish to further the discussion, a pm would be better. Thank You.

 

[palindrome]

1) <<I think you are not aware whats going in India then.Caste or jathi is a firmly set imprint in the hearts & minds of people.Just like in Europe you have a different nomenclatures or Canada or USA or Russian Communist blocs or Chinese,Japanese.....etc.The entire world world is revolving under some classifications or labelling system.>>

Caste or jathi existed in old societies in medieval times in varying ways. It does not exist anymore. Christianity wiped out castes in the west. Then came the industrial revolution. Only class systems exist now. And there are only 2 classes now - rich and poor.

2) <<Studying of vedas is one of the many things that Mahaswamigal has asked brahmans to do.That is why he went about setting veda patashalas.But unfortunately,such conventional practices is not bringing in Mahalakshmi's blessings in term's of wealth.Therefore families who like to enjoy material comforts leave such practices to people who are dedicated.

In that,anyone can learn-there is no bar to learn vedas provided one passes the test for admission.I have no problem in calling myself as shudran,as per definition ,that is exactly who i am=a coolie=a self-salaried biz person.>>

A shudran is not a coolie or self-salaried person. You are applying class definitions to occupations. Vedic brahmins did not enjoy material comforts. They were not called brahmins if they did. What is happening is circumventing all possible requisites in the necessity to save one class, so that such people can continue to be the brahmin class. But to me that is equal to cheating God and oneself, unless a person is willing to live his brahmacharyam truly. Thank you.

 

[s007bala]

palindrome

1) <<Sanyasa Vows,which is a secret ,as you yourself admitted to it.Broadly i wrote as as sampradayam of Kanchi Math.
According to one sanyasa tradition, the sampradayam of Kanchi mutt is no different from the sanyasa sampradayams of the ekadandis since they are iniitated under the saraswati order.>>

Can you name the sanyasa tradition,which you are quoting,to equate to Kanchi Math's Sanyasa Vow's?Thanks.

2) <<He has set an example and expects his sishyas to follow.Now,if sishyas are honest to Mahaswamigal,they will follow or if they are dis-honest to Mahaswamigal they will not follow.Either way Mahaswamigal is untouched or unaffected, by the sishyas behaviour,isn't it?
True. When one becomes a mathadipathi, the norms followed by one wud differ from regular sanyasis. Therefore there was nothing to stop paramacharya from seeing widows. However, it appears that he was conforming to the wishes of his devotees and attendents in adhering to a social non-vedic norm.>>

It's your opinion about Mahaswamigal and i believe Mahaswamigal was following his sampradayic culture which again varies from one sampradaya to another sampradaya,but you need to understand that you are writing about an enlightened master just not for me,but billions billions of people in this world even today.I am yet to find a guru, as simple like him,but he was no simpleton.

3) <<Smartas have been there for time immemorial.The dates that we have is nothing but approximations of various sampradayas.If people were not profiled as smartas then they were called something else.Its debatable issue.Interpolations have been happening time and again,and this truth must get acknowledged for saner sensibilities to prevail for generations to come.
Current smarthas were not around. Please go thru material that puts forth all versions, not just the version put forward by one mutt. It is not really difficult to identify a new caste or new individuals recruited into a caste.>>

OK.

<<As mentioned in posts above, current smarthas are a result of warriors who turned brahmin in mahabharat times and subsequent people from a wide cross-section that sought brahmacharyam under the ekadandi sampradaya.
Even today a man can seek brahmacharyam under the tutelage of the ekadandis and his children may choose to call themselves brahmins if their father wishes to passes on his abhivadaya to them.
Dates cannot be refuted because one mutt wishes so. All the other 4 mutts established by Adi Shankara follow a common dating pattern. I do not understand what you mean by dating being approximation of various sampradayas. >>

Dating is done by our historians,indologist...etc.While i like the science of dating and would like to believe them,but when i am exposed to the vedic yuga cycles as propounded by ancients enlightened masters,none of the dating system are even close to such magnificient vedic yuga cycles.Carl Sagan was one of the few scientiscts who acknowledged the Indian Vedic Yuga Cycles as prolly the only one coming close to modern findings.I rest my case.

4) <<Sanyasi orders are many in number.A wikipedia search or a google search will give infr get initiated with some sampradaya as sishya and learn from a guru.
I have been initiated and learning from a guru. Thanks. >>

Good.

5) <<Who are ekadandi sampradaya?Are they our Udupi & surrounding Maths of Karnataka?If so,let me research and get back to you,as i have had darshanam of some Maths there,if not all.
It is amusing that you and MM chose to reply to my posts without knwoing the origin of various monastic traditions. Yes, all 4 mutts established by Adi Shankara are following the ekadandi sampradaya. Ekadandis are generally advaithins. Tridandis are generally associated with the vishistadvaithins. Both ekadandis and tridandis are vedic monastic traditions. They existed before present mutts came into existence.>>

I am happy to have brought a smile in your face and a sense of knowing more than me in your mind.Thanks.

6) <<When it comes different Maths established by Adi Sanakara,there are controversies of history.Its best we stop indulging on such controversy,which divided us as a community for other non-brahmins to take advantage and make us weak.Thanks.
We can stop. Because our emotions get involved in such things. But historians do not stop. Indologists do not stop. There is no controversy. There are only claims. And clarification for those claims is just "information" that can be obtained from various sources. Nobody can divide you or make you feel week unless you allow yourself to feel that way.>>

While science says with definitive authority,for me gurus are the final authority and their interpretations of holy scriptures.Let's agree to disagree and move on.

7) <<I get the feeling that you attach rather greater importance to smrithis and not for sruthis.If one were to listen to sruthis of achaaryaals of various sampradayas,it is mind boggling.Practical things to do is,zero down to a sampradaya opinion and listen to the guru.
No I am not attaching any importance to any texts. Yes i am listening to gurus. Thanks for the advice again.>>

OK.

8) <<Yes,many things happened in the past.Lets come to present and live in present,as there are extremely tall gurus with knowledge in all sampradayas,and finally one will have to take sides,if one wants to be sane.
One may wish to take sides, not for sanity, but to keep his/ her image which stems from social ego. It has nothing to do with gurus or sampradayas.>>

Whatever you wish to think.Very good.Thanks.

9) <<There are so many controversy surrounding the dating of Mahabharatham,which reminds me of Mahaswamigal saying about datings of the past using modern tools to ascertain them.
Reg mahabharatam and not paramacharya - apart from dating, anything can become a controversy when one group makes a claim that hugely differes from info available from most sources. Modern tools need not be used at all in some cases.>>

True.There are enuff clues in Mahabharatham to understand many things in proper context.A guru is best for me.

10) <<Lets be current and listen to our sampradayic gurus,as thats final for all of us.My request,please refrain from deriding saathwich aatmas like Mahaswamigal and be judgemental.Thanks so much.
Agreed. Being judgemental is wrong. >>

Yup.

<<I also have a request, is you do not wish me to reply to your posts, please refrain from addressing me in your posts. If you address me, I cannot refrain from replying or responding. I had already made it clear that going into details will not result in good. And wished to stop there. Now, I have responded because your posts were addressed to me. If you wish to further the discussion, a pm would be better. Thank You. >>

I am not sure why you feel this way,but then each and every mind is different except for the atma,i guess.Sure,we can PM,i would like to learn more about this ekadandi and tridandi and who knows many more..i am always willing to learn.Thanks.
---------------

1) <<I think you are not aware whats going in India then.Caste or jathi is a firmly set imprint in the hearts & minds of people.Just like in Europe you have a different nomenclatures or Canada or USA or Russian Communist blocs or Chinese,Japanese.....etc.The entire world world is revolving under some classifications or labelling system.
Caste or jathi existed in old societies in medieval times in varying ways. It does not exist anymore. Christianity wiped out castes in the west. Then came the industrial revolution. Only class systems exist now. And there are only 2 classes now - rich and poor.>>

At least in the USA,color of the skin is still important,but this is being overcome by dilligent work by folks and even in the recent press conference President BHO replied to a TV questioner from a network in terms of black,white,brown and missed yellow .Anyways we know whats going on.

2) <<Studying of vedas is one of the many things that Mahaswamigal has asked brahmans to do.That is why he went about setting veda patashalas.But unfortunately,such conventional practices is not bringing in Mahalakshmi's blessings in term's of wealth.Therefore families who like to enjoy material comforts leave such practices to people who are dedicated.
In that,anyone can learn-there is no bar to learn vedas provided one passes the test for admission.I have no problem in calling myself as shudran,as per definition ,that is exactly who i am=a coolie=a self-salaried biz person.
A shudran is not a coolie or self-salaried person. You are applying class definitions to occupations. Vedic brahmins did not enjoy material comforts. They were not called brahmins if they did. What is happening is circumventing all possible requisites in the necessity to save one class, so that such people can continue to be the brahmin class. But to me that is equal to cheating God and oneself, unless a person is willing to live his brahmacharyam truly. Thank you.>>

Frankly,i do not want to be brahmin becoz its too difficult to follow,and when i break conventions,i end up feeling guilty as if i have committed a crime.To go above this sort of feeling,i really had to grow mentally,and now i am a free man without any reservation and exactly know,what's what?Our sysytem of jathi is way too much and now this reservations is also way too much-india is going to have engineers,doctors,....etc who have become so, by virtue of reservation and not by merit=which is detrimental in quality of services.My 2 cents. .

sb

 

[palindrome]

1) <<Can you name the sanyasa tradition,which you are quoting,to equate to Kanchi Math's Sanyasa Vow's?Thanks.>>

I cannot revel which order of monks I spoke to. And even if you know about kanchi mutt's sanyasa vows word by word, surely you wud not play havoc by revealing it in a public forum.

2) <<It's your opinion about Mahaswamigal and i believe Mahaswamigal was following his sampradayic culture which again varies from one sampradaya to another sampradaya,but you need to understand that you are writing about an enlightened master just not for me,but billions billions of people in this world even today.I am yet to find a guru, as simple like him,but he was no simpleton.>>

Everyone born on earth merely fulfills his karmic role as detained by the larger destiny. So did paramacharya. Not seeing widows is not a vedic concept. He just fulfilled the wishes of his attendents by adhering to a social norm.

3) <<Dating is done by our historians,indologist...etc.While i like the science of dating and would like to believe them,but when i am exposed to the vedic yuga cycles as propounded by ancients enlightened masters,none of the dating system are even close to such magnificient vedic yuga cycles.Carl Sagan was one of the few scientiscts who acknowledged the Indian Vedic Yuga Cycles as prolly the only one coming close to modern findings.I rest my case.>>

Vedic yuga cycles are not expected to be understood if they are translated figuratively not metaphorically.

 

[s007bala]

palindrome

1) <<Can you name the sanyasa tradition,which you are quoting,to equate to Kanchi Math's Sanyasa Vow's?Thanks.>>
I cannot revel which order of monks I spoke to. And even if you know about kanchi mutt's sanyasa vows word by word, surely you wud not play havoc by revealing it in a public forum.

I thought so,you would write like this.Maybe your suggestion of PM is after all a good idea.

2) <<It's your opinion about Mahaswamigal and i believe Mahaswamigal was following his sampradayic culture which again varies from one sampradaya to another sampradaya,but you need to understand that you are writing about an enlightened master just not for me,but billions billions of people in this world even today.I am yet to find a guru, as simple like him,but he was no simpleton.>>

Everyone born on earth merely fulfills his karmic role as detained by the larger destiny. So did paramacharya. Not seeing widows is not a vedic concept. He just fulfilled the wishes of his attendents by adhering to a social norm.

To say so bluntly about vedic concepts,especially the actions of Mahaswamigal,you ought to be on a higher pedestal than Mahaswamigal?-but i do not think so.You are only quick to point out this action of Mahaswamigal,not knowing the sampradayic tradition of Kanchi Math for a particular period of time.

Whether he fulfilled the wishes of the attendants or the attendants were doing the errands for Mahaswamigal is directly between them.My only hurt is,knowing a protocol of Kanchi Math,why people insist upon saying this is not vedic concept or such bombastic terms.I am not attacking you palindrome,and i am sorry if you feel slighted,as my language skills requires ,heck lot of improvements.

Before Mahaswamigal,there has been innumerous saints,sages,gyaanis,avataram's....etc-but for people like me,who have witnessed within close proximity of this Kanchi Maths Mahaswamigal-its purely bliss.

I never took my mother to Kanchi Math nor my mother ever visited the Kanchi Math after the demise of my father,becoz we knew the protocol that is existing in Kanchi Math.We honored the sampradayic tradition of the gurus.I could have gone for darshanam,but i chose not to becoz my mom cannot accompany me.Without her blessings,i would never be the man i am today,- and despite the fact my father attained 'moksham' right there in Kanchi Math premises after darshanam of the holy saints in kanchi - i never even had a tinge of bad feeling for anyone there,that dad kicked the bucket in the math.On the contrary i was jubiliant for my dad,to have breathed his last in such a holy surroundings of his sthri-gurus sthalam,as death is inevitable for all.

3) <<Dating is done by our historians,indologist...etc.While i like the science of dating and would like to believe them,but when i am exposed to the vedic yuga cycles as propounded by ancients enlightened masters,none of the dating system are even close to such magnificient vedic yuga cycles.Carl Sagan was one of the few scientiscts who acknowledged the Indian Vedic Yuga Cycles as prolly the only one coming close to modern findings.I rest my case.>>
Vedic yuga cycles are not expected to be understood if they are translated figuratively not metaphorically.

Everything is not in metaphor's too.Just becoz today's science is dominated by western cultures and are giving a spin becoz it so happens to be hinduism and not abrahamic faiths.

sb

 

[kunjuppu]

not sure if this will find a cordant (as opposed to discordant) response here... but here it goes....

i get the idea that we get upset with the increasing conversions of 'hindus' to christianity (prime) and islam (to a smaller extent? - not sure).

during the early 1900s, sir c.p.ramaswamy iyer, was the dewan of travancore. during that time, observing the wretched lot of the lowest of the low (read the dalits), he encouraged them to convert to christianity, whose purveyors were active in that area at that time.

sir c.p.'s logic was that, it was the only hope during their lifetime, that they had any chance of upward mobility. the church offered them education. that potent tool to knowledge, and hence, a tool, to challenge the status quo.

indeed, to the best of my knowledge, the mass conversions of the early 1900s spawned the malayali xtian intelligentsia of today (barring the bar thoma - who claim lineage to st. thomas and consider themselves brahmin xtians and do not tolerate conversion or outcaste marriage) and their political clout. they have done well, those keralite xtians, in the economic and political indian scen.

what was offered was a chance to dignity.a chance to betterment.

now let us look at the vedic philosophy that we are the proponent.

among the very learned, it is acknowledged, as above par, to any religious or philosophical doctrine. our 'out of born' adherents are the intellectual giants of the like of einstein.

but the common sweeper or 'night soil' carrier, has no relevance here. after all he is paying for his ancestor's sins, per the karma logic.

now, here comes somebody, offering him dignity, education, and (in the case of islam) offering absolute equality before God.

i ask, 'why would he not choose to jump ship?'.

personally, i think, that all these high sounding brahmins here, with their smattering of sanskrit and smritis, are not unlike those frogs in the well. we can shout and croak as loud as we want to, but it has no bearing on the realities of the world outside.

the 'pooshnikkaais' get grabbed in tons, while we are searching for some perceivedly lost 'kadugu'.

personally, i again, lay the blame for this situation, on the lack of vision of our so called religious heads like the kanchi mutt.

at critical times, like the dawn of indian independence, or the dawn of the dravidian revolutions, this leadership, with still a pent up goodwill from the vast cross-caste majority, could have made inclusive statements and acts - an urging to play down caste, and promote equality, and give moral leadership to those other than dalits - that these have been absolutely wronged. we need to bend backwards, to integrate and embrace them to our fold.

instead, all that was practiced, was a doctrinaire approach, to that most evil of our so-called sages, manu.

the readers, can fill the gaps here....

personally, i think, in this forum, within the narrow vision of brahminism, we have nothing to fear - for brahmins have fared best, when the ruling classes have been muslims or christians

but, i think, there is an ever growing angst here, about the loss of numbers. finally we have come to understand the powers of the number game.

and maybe, we see a perceived loss, frightening to us, because, we fear the vengeance of those whom we have supposedly vanquished.

i remain,

yours truly..

 

[palindrome]

To say so bluntly about vedic concepts,especially the actions of Mahaswamigal,you ought to be on a higher pedestal than Mahaswamigal?-but i do not think so.You are only quick to point out this action of Mahaswamigal,not knowing the sampradayic tradition of Kanchi Math for a particular period of time.

neither mahaswamigal nor i nor anyone needs to be on any pedestal merely to understahnd whether an action such as seeing widows is a vedic or non-vedic social norm. i wud now like to leave it here. and i request you to stop on this topic as well.

Before Mahaswamigal,there has been innumerous saints,sages,gyaanis,avataram's....etc-but for people like me,who have witnessed within close proximity of this Kanchi Maths Mahaswamigal-its purely bliss.

i understand how it feels. by saying that one adhered to a non-vedic social norm does not mean the feeling for an exalted soul is any less.

Everything is not in metaphor's too.Just becoz today's science is dominated by western cultures and are giving a spin becoz it so happens to be hinduism and not abrahamic faiths.

i did not say science. nor did i mention western cultures. it is your presumption. the vedas talk of 33 elements of nature which when increased in power are equal to the strength of 3 crore or 33 crore gods. And how did that idea get propagated as? even now some people beelive there are some crores of gods. And who is responsible for this wrong interpretation? Is is science ? hope you understand that sages and seers are human too. one may not be able to understand what is being conveyed metaphorically, not refer to all scriptures, and convey or write something that is not close to the author's intended meaning.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

shri kunjuppu,

your observations are spot on...!!!

the bone of contention in our vedic philosophy has been the "equality", or perhaps, the "inequality" factor...

but what is this factor all about? how do we say that equality has been achieved? the vedas have never said that one soul is subordinate to another; it is by virtue of their deeds that respect, status and honour are bestowed on a person...

there is an element of truth in that brahmins have discriminated against the other castes - situational practices...

also, there is an element of truth in that christians/muslims have used the meaning of our vedas to suit their cause, ie., of conversion... homogenization...

in the current scenario, due to a combination of events, favourable or unfavourable, we (brahmins) do treat others as equal... but should it have no boundaries? or should it have? the notion of equality seems to have gone to the extreme in that now, just because of being a brahmin, actions of the individual are seen primarily as prejudiced or biased...

if a brahmin wants to keep his tradition - it is inequality as he is following the vedas and shasthras which have promoted discrimination...

if a brahmin chooses to marry within his caste, it is inequality as he is averse to the other castes even though he calls others equal...

if a brahmin wants to preserve the tradition in a temple, it is termed a inequality as he is seen as keeping a chosen job for himself based on birth...

if a brahmin studies sanskrit, he is seen as denigrating tamil (w.r.t. TN), and that is seen as signs of brahminical dominance... aryan culture and so on...

all that is brahminical is seen as either dominating, oppressing or practicing inequality...

i am not talking of exceptions here, neither of the opinions of those smaller numbers who do not think as above, but of the majority...

the trend is only to erase all caste notions, which in the past have led to notions of higher/lower status... the non-brahmins think that unless the identity of caste is erased, the idea of inequality exists... and hence the continuous and persisted assault on brahmins and brahminical practices...

i need not mention here, that this is what the papal or islamic forces would also want...

it maybe that we do not practice life the way originally intended in our scriptures, as different groups interpret it differently... but is that sufficient to disprove our actions?

does reverse discrimination solve the issue here? there has been a targetted attack on brahmins in TN all along these years... they have been uprooted from the position which they had been perceived to have enjoyed since time immemorial...

other castes have their own preferences, traditions and cultures (like the chettiars, gounders, thevars etc), but they are left alone as they are non-brahmins....

what is it that brahmins must do to say that they are not practicing discrimination or inequality? become casteless?

only when brahmins cut their yangyopaveetham or refrain from calling themselves brahmins, will this feud end... lose your identity of a brahmin - that is the implicit call here...

regards,

 

[palindrome]

if a brahmin wants to keep his tradition - it is inequality as he is following the vedas and shasthras which have promoted discrimination...

i have a strong objection to the above.

the shastras have never promoted discrimination or inequality.

the caste system was never about inequality.

there were a few inter tribal wars in the vedas but they were limited. none of those communities exist now.

there is not a single smrithi, or any scripture that talks about promoting inequality.

the people who interpreted it wrongly were the ones who caused the trouble of the current scenario to happen.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

i have a strong objection to the above.

the shastras have never promoted discrimination or inequality.

the caste system was never about inequality.

there were a few inter tribal wars in the vedas but they were limited. none of those communities exist now.

there is not a single smrithi, or any scripture that talks about promoting inequality.

the people who interpreted it wrongly were the ones who caused the trouble of the current scenario to happen.

of course, i too have a strong objection... as i believe that our scriptures do not promote inequality...

the intent in the statement is the perception of those who have their stance that practicing as per the vedas/shasthras promotes inequality...

 

[palindrome]

of course, i too have a strong objection... as i believe that our scriptures do not promote inequality...

the intent in the statement is the perception of those who have their stance that practicing as per the vedas/shasthras promotes inequality...

and who promoted such an idea, that practicing the vedas / shastras promotes inequality ?

what caused the scriptures to get interpreted wrongly?

this is just in case you may wish to ponder over. thank you.

i should think a brahmin cutting off his thread is a sheer sin. it is obligatory on his part to read the vedas. paramacharya was also conveying the same thing - you cannot keep you cake and eat it too. you cannot call yourself a brahmin without following the path of vedic brahmacharyam.

 

[malgova.mango]

palindrome!

you are striking a chord. this is how Mahaswami also believed.

but for that, he didn't disregard the element of birth or invent some new theories to discard the factor of birth.

He said, we just play our roles in the stage called World.

Like in a drama stage, if we don the role of King - we just play that, if it is begger , then we just play that. there is nothing high or low.

If we take the role of Shudra - in a sense this is the highest level as "Adiyarkum Adiyen" is an exalted state which brings out humility.

regards

 

[palindrome]

palindrome!

you are striking a chord. this is how Mahaswami also believed.

but for that, he didn't disregard the element of birth or invent some new theories to discard the factor of birth.

He said, we just play our roles in the stage called World.

this is what some seers also said before.

they didn't disregard the birth element because
a) generally a soul likes to pursue a similar occupation over births though it might have been born anywhere. This part is considered to have been misinterpreted. This also probably applied in times when the number of similar occupations were very limited.
b) they knew there won't be any new takers for a system like brahmanism that demands that level of austerity. But that did not mean there were no new takers at all.

as regards misinterpretation, it perhaps came about due to lack of through sanskrit knowledge and because such people were possibly not the ones that had actually descended from the guru shisya or biological lineage, so the right way of interpreting was not known to them or not passed on to them by the guru. If you notice the framework of all present day castes began in the 3rd to 5th century, and the people that constituted it came from all directions.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

and who promoted such an idea, that practicing the vedas / shastras promotes inequality ?

what caused the scriptures to get interpreted wrongly?

this is just in case you may wish to ponder over. thank you.

i should think a brahmin cutting off his thread is a sheer sin. it is obligatory on his part to read the vedas. paramacharya was also conveying the same thing - you cannot keep you cake and eat it too. you cannot call yourself a brahmin without following the path of vedic brahmacharyam.

thank you for your kind suggestions... but i think the answer is obvious, just that we may not always perceive it the way it is to be perceived...

or perhaps, you want me to believe it in a certain way that you raise questions without answering yourself...? you should be able to do better than that!

the queries i have raised is not about the status of a brahmin as regards his obligations... a brahmins duties is not bound by the individual alone... rather it is the entire setup of society which calls for majority of the actions of a brahmin...

 

[malgova.mango]

re - your 2nd para - that's precisely why , we say we should not see Rishi Moolam. there can be rishis from any where.

Just some questions out of line....

do you know from where the word caste come from? it is from spain.

do you know in japan the caste systems is in vogue