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Advaita - For Scholars

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1. I am not implying that brahman's knowledge is not full. Physical world being a projection of brahman, brahman doesn't depend upon the former in any way. All you are doing is seeing in the projection, which in a sense, being an unfolding of the absolute reality in the dimensions of space and time, how the truth is realized. I said avidya is the basis...., only in the sense, without creating the ignorance in the soul in the physical world, it does not learn and reach the realization. For example not realizing that being evil is self destructive and learning the truth through experiences. So you have to be evil and realize that it is not good.

Shri sravna sir,

I understand that you are giving your own version of advaita. I also am aware that there are very many interpretations and opinions/conclusions based on Sankara's bhashya of brahmasutra and Chandogyopanishad on which the BS is considered to be mainly developed.

Sankara did not quite agree with the limited explanation of BS 1-1-2 (janmAdyasya yatah) as merely 'yatO vA imAni bhUtAni jAyantE, yEna jAtAni jeevanti, etc.' He went further and postulated that the Supreme Reality is absolutely homogeneous and is absolutely without any guNa. Hence Sankara's brahman could not have projected itself as the physical world. If 'avidyA' is causing this, then this avidyA seems to be a second reality able to make a projection of the brahman as the physical world. It (avidyA) thus becomes a second reality.

2. By saying that avidya is the locus of brahman I only meant that brahman through maya created the ignorance. And it makes no sense to even a layman like me to say that brahman is totally void. It is IMO one of the thoroughly misinterpreted aspect of Sankara's advaita as how can eVerything come out of nothing? You have a paradox right? Can Sankara be considered so naive to frame such a concept of nirguna brahman? I can't help saying it is an irrelevant hairsplitting.

I think there is a slip when you say "avidya is the locus of brahman". If brahman is the locus of avidyA, then Ramanuja's objection stands vindicated; brahman becomes saguna. And Sankara's NB just cannot create anything, leave alone ignorance. And if mAyA is used (through mAyA, as you put it) one has to state whence this mAyA? is it different from brahman?

It is equally wrong to say that Sankara's brahman is a void; it is complete in all and every respect in itself, extremely homogeneous but is devoid of the gunas. Sankara also does not talk about "coming out"; nothing has come out of anything, this world is also brahman and it is permeated by brahman and so the jeevas are also brahman. Instead of just finding out lame arguments to establish your brand of advaita, kindly first read Sankara's adhyAsa bhAshya and brahmasUtra bhAshya; then if, you so feel, kindly peruse Sankara's commentary on Chandogyopanishad. After that we may discuss who was naive.
 
Sankara did not quite agree with the limited explanation of BS 1-1-2 (janmAdyasya yatah) as merely 'yatO vA imAni bhUtAni jAyantE, yEna jAtAni jeevanti, etc.' He went further and postulated that the Supreme Reality is absolutely homogeneous and is absolutely without any guNa. Hence Sankara's brahman could not have projected itself as the physical world. If 'avidyA' is causing this, then this avidyA seems to be a second reality able to make a projection of the brahman as the physical world. It (avidyA) thus becomes a second reality.

Let us try to simplify things. OK let us assume nirguna brahman doesn't partake in the projection of the material world. Let us consider brahman using his maya shakthi for creation which is called saguna brahman is the cause of the world. So it is the same brahman whether it is called nirguna brahman or saguna brahman depending upon what it does not do or what it does do. I think Sankara wanted to make the differentiation of nirguna and saguna brahman mainly to emphasize the absolutely monistic nature of the ultimate reality. So saguna brahman can be seen as the lower brahman just because it corresponds to brahman using the maya shakthi.

It is equally wrong to say that Sankara's brahman is a void; it is complete in all and every respect in itself, extremely homogeneous but is devoid of the gunas. Sankara also does not talk about "coming out"; nothing has come out of anything, this world is also brahman and it is permeated by brahman and so the jeevas are also brahman. Instead of just finding out lame arguments to establish your brand of advaita, kindly first read Sankara's adhyAsa bhAshya and brahmasUtra bhAshya; then if, you so feel, kindly peruse Sankara's commentary on Chandogyopanishad. After that we may discuss who was naive.

Actually it is not only the question of reading but making the right sense of it.
 
Dear sravna, I understand this is a subject dear to your heart, you have opened threads on it at regular intervals in the past. It was Shri Sangom and I who used to raise questions on your presentation. This time you have opened two threads and Sarma-61 is doing an admirable job pointing out the holes in your presentation.

First, I think this thread is misnamed. I know I am not a scholar of anything; others who have posted in this thread have done so with the caveat they are not scholars on Advaitam and I take them at their word. So, in practical terms, this thread has become "Avdaita - For those who say they are not scholars". Perhaps a name like "Advaita - Technical points" would be better suited. The other thread seems mainly a lesson on what you understand to be Advaitam, your explanations aimed at lay people, and therefore the title may not be that off.


....Let us try to simplify things. OK let us assume nirguna brahman doesn't partake in the projection of the material world. Let us consider brahman using his maya shakthi for creation which is called saguna brahman is the cause of the world. So it is the same brahman whether it is called nirguna brahman or saguna brahman depending upon what it does not do or what it does do. I think Sankara wanted to make the differentiation of nirguna and saguna brahman mainly to emphasize the absolutely monistic nature of the ultimate reality. So saguna brahman can be seen as the lower brahman just because it corresponds to brahman using the maya shakthi.
sravna, the line of argument you are presenting here, and elsewhere, shows to me that you, and BTW, others as well, have a firm and unshakable conviction that Advaitam is indubitable, and now you see your task as one of finding a coherent argument for it. To me, this is putting the cart in front of the horse. I think this is the spirit behind sarma-61's suggestion that you read Shankara's bhashyas, and, of course, as you say, make "the right sense of it". Then, you may either change your mind on Advaitam, or will be in a position to offer a more robust defense.

Coming to specifics, what you have said above makes no sense at all, sorry to say. You are jumping into an assumption about nirguma brahman and then make a statement like his maya shakti, which immediately negates advaitam -- maya shakti being a possession implies duality -- and nirguna brahman -- he becomes saguna as he is now a possessor of this maya shakti, there is no more advaitam, no more nirguna brhman. I know you will try to answer this with your own theories, but sravna, this is a problem nobody has found a convincing answered to, yet. It is only the strength of tribal affiliation that is sustaining the allegiances.

From the views I have seen people express, with the possible exception of Sarma-61 (IMO, he also makes the technical mistake of saying at mukti jeeva merges into nirguna brahman, which will also contradict advaitam), what all the others say is not A at all, it is your own version of some sort of VA, not the one propounded by Ramanuja. There is also this self-serving assertion that non-duality is the ultimate stage to which one will reach after the lower stages like VA or D, whatever they are. All of this amounts to no more than speculations and pet theories, not rooted in any sampradaya.

Now, if you want to say this is what Advaitam means to you, samradaya or not, then, that would be one thing. But, when you say this is Advaitam, this is what Adi Shankara had in mind, then you have to present a coherent argument with proper citations. This is why I think sravna, you have to answer the objections sarma-61 raises, you can't dismiss him as just a distractor, or dismiss his comments as feeble minded.

Cheers!

p.s. I don't know why such a discussion about VA never happens, perhaps if there is a "sravna" from VA we can have an argument on its flaws and contradictions :).


Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear Shri Nara,You have misunderstood me. I said when brahman wields maya it is called as saguna brahman. Wielding maya doesn't make it dual because it is nothing more than saying that there exists a lower reality and not real from the point of view of brahman. We are saying we can call that projection as a power of brahman and call it as maya. The nirguna brahman on the other hand doesn't partake of in anything and is representative of the perfectly monistic nature of reality.
 
Dear Shri Nara,You have misunderstood me. I said when brahman wields maya it is called as saguna brahman. Wielding maya doesn't make it dual because it is nothing more than saying that there exists a lower reality and not real from the point of view of brahman. We are saying we can call that projection as a power of brahman and call it as maya. The nirguna brahman on the other hand doesn't partake of in anything and is representative of the perfectly monistic nature of reality.
Dear sravna, as I predicted, and before the ink is dry, you have come up with an explanation, completely out of thin air. You say, "when brahman wields maya it is called as saguna brahman" and don't you see how illogical this is, even from advaitic POV. This statement can mean one of two things, (i) when Nirguna Brhman wields this maya, he becomes Saguna Brhman, then, it is so non-advaitic in so many levels, or (ii) maya is wielded by saguna brhman, then we have two brhmans, one NB and the other SB, and that would be unacceptable to anybody.

sravna, please, don't just take one piece of what I said, take a look at what I am trying to say on the whole. Don't put the cart before the horse. Let go of your a priori conclusion, look at the arguments logically, with an open mind, and let logic take you to the destination.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear Shri Nara,

Terminologies sometimes confuses the issue rather than clarifying it. I think that is the case here. It is the same brahman everywhere. When it is the lower reality it is the jivatma , when it is viewed as a personal god and seen as responsible for creation, it is saguna brahman and when it is just consciousness, existence etc it is nirguna brahman. It is the maya that is responsible for all the difference. And the existence of the power of maya doesn't in my view, negate non dualism.
 
Shri Nara,

You don't care to go through what I said carefully and blame me for being illogical. I did not say that nirguna brahman or saguna brahman wields maya. It is brahman which is called nirguna brahman or saguna brahman according to whether the power of maya added or not in its description,
 
....You don't care to go through what I said carefully and blame me for being illogical. I did not say that nirguna brahman or saguna brahman wields maya. It is brahman which is called nirguna brahman or saguna brahman according to whether the power of maya added or not in its description,
Wait a minute dear sravna, the accusation, namely, "You don't care to go through what I said carefully" can work both ways, no?

I still think you are trying your best to come up with a rationale for your a priori conclusion. I say this because you now say there is this Brahman, and that brhman is nirguna when it is simply there, and is saguna when it is wielding maya. Then, according to what you say, after careful reading, there is something called maya, different from brhman that this brhman wields, then we have two things, brhman and maya that the brhman wields, no more advaitam.

Further, this brhman, who apparently is nirguna, takes it upon itself to wield this maya which has to be external to it as brhman is nirguna, and becomes saguna, which means this brhman changes, from being nirguna to saguna. Then all the theory that which changes is not real is out the window.

Perhaps you will say it is seen as saguna by badda jeevas, which makes it even worse, there is now brhman who is seen as saguna by the ananta jeevatmas, where is advaitam in this?

You see sravna, with advaitam, we get all wound up in knots.

... It is the maya that is responsible for all the difference. And the existence of the power of maya doesn't in my view, negate non dualism.
There you go, this settles it, it is your view, that is good. All that I have to say for this is, your view (i) does not comport with Advaitam of Shankara, and (ii) has no support in reality or any religious doctrine.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear Shri Nara,

Terminologies sometimes confuses the issue rather than clarifying it. I think that is the case here. It is the same brahman everywhere. When it is the lower reality it is the jivatma , when it is viewed as a personal god and seen as responsible for creation, it is saguna brahman and when it is just consciousness, existence etc it is nirguna brahman. It is the maya that is responsible for all the difference. And the existence of the power of maya doesn't in my view, negate non dualism.

Dear Sravna,

I am very reluctant to type here but since I am typing a basic concept and not an advanced concept so I feel I will just type this much:

Maya is also known as Trigunatmika for it has 3 Gunas/Attributes.
Nirguna Brahman as we know is free from any Guna/Attribute/Form but many people think as if this state is powerless or not capable of anything but thats not true.

Attributes and Forms limit anything and being sans attributes and forms is a state that is Unlimited and hence called the Supreme State.

When Nirguna Brahman acquiesces with Maya it is known as Saguna Brahman.

What I want to stress is its not that Nirguna Brahman changes to Saguna Brahman as in changing one form and losing the original form but its merely a projection or reflection.
Nirguna Brahman remains ever pure in its original state.

For example when we go to a house of mirrors..we see different mirrors that reflect our image differently.
Some make us look fat..some make us look thin..some make us look distorted but our true body remains the same isnt it?

Thats how Maya works and Maya is the Trigunatmika mirror in which if the :

Sattva Guna reflected in the mirror of Maya is Iswara(Saguna Brahman)
Rajo Guna reflected in the mirror of Maya is Jeevaatma
Tamo Guna reflected in the mirror of Maya is Prakrithi.
 
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The most important among the topics hotly debated for centuries, is of mAyA-avidyA, in advaita. This concept is so central that the advaita school which introduced this concept, is frequently characterised as “mAyAvAda”. Sankara commenced with the word "adhyAsa", in his 'adhyAsa bhAshya'. But in the course of the continuing war between advaitin scholars and non-advaitin scholars, this original adhyAsa has been variously interpreted in course of time by different advaitin scholars, and the concept has become something similar to chappatti batter which can be made into any shape at will !!

The crux of the adhyAsa conundrum is that according to Sankara's original (made in Kalady, so to say) advaita or non-dualism, there is only one Reality in the whole jagat and beyond, and that is a nirguNa brahman. It has absolutely no characteristic that nothing can be said describing or qualifying it except that "It is".

Now, the ordinary people see this world and it behaves like reality. But according to Sankara, all these realities are not realities and the perception of such reality-ness arises because of "avidyA" of the jeeva. Jeeva being nothing other than the brahman itself ( jeevO brahmaiva naapara: ) it became necessary for Sankara to explain how the brahman which is the only Reality considers this world as also reality. He took the argument that the brahman is covered by some veil and called it "adhyAsa", "adhyArOpa", etc. In course of time the word "mAyA" came to be used in this place. Since then advaita has also been referred to as "mAyAvAda" by its opponents.

rAmAnuja who reacted to the school of advaita by formulating viSishTadvaita, made the concept of mAyA-avidyA as the prime target of his attack. He stated his justly famous “seven objections”, ‘sapthavidha anupapaththi’ against the concept of mAyA-avidyA, in his Sree bhAshya.

This attack on the concept of mAyA-avidyA, initiated by rAmAnuja, is vigorously continued by his followers, and there has been continual and fierce debate between advaithins and viSishTadvaithins on the concept of mAyA-avidyA that has spread over the centuries. The concept of mAyA-avidyA is centrally connected to the very way of conceiving conflict in advaita and viSishTadvaita. For advaita it is axiomatic that brahman is non-dual and absolutely featureless, niRguNa, and therefore, the problem that naturally arises is of explaining the multiplicity of entities and features encountered by humans in the world of our experience. The concept of mAyA-avidyA is inferred by advaita as explanatory of this phenomenon. It is as good in advaita that, in view of the sole reality of the niRguNa brahman, the universe of names and forms experienced by us is not ultimately real, and this unreality is variously referred to by the terms “mithhyA”, “aniRvachaneeya”, “sadasad vilakshaNa”. Thus the concept of mAyA-avidyA is used by advaita to account for the experience of multiplicity and variety, when, in fact, there is no entity except the sole “niRguNa brahman”.

Sankara explains this by means of his 'rope-snake' analogy. But, though the mistaking a rope for snake involves misperception and the snake is supposed to last only for the duration of its knowledge, it will require the knowledge of the existence of the snake previous to the appearance of this unreal knowledge. This is of utmost importance because if the illusory object of perception (here, the snake) does not exist prior to mistaking the rope for the snake, then such a misunderstanding or illusion could not have arisen. Hence, the Jeevas must have had prior knowledge of a world which is identical to the wrongly perceived present world. If this is conceded, it will then follow that besides brahman, there is another world which is real.

Thus Sankara's advaita suffers, and that too heavily, because of his non-dualism which can be logically fitted only with the SUnyavAda of madhyamika buddhism.

May be the above points can be discussed in this thread for scholars.

Sri Sarma Avl -

Nice to see that you are back in the forum posting again and posing thoughtful points :-)

Regards
 
For monism to be considered dualism, the alternate reality has to be independent of brahman. But we know that the physical world is not an independent reality. Mere exercise of maya cannot make dualism because maya is only the power of brahman that projects a reality.
 
Mere exercise of maya cannot make dualism because maya is only the power of brahman that projects a reality.

Dear Sravna,

Just a doubt here..you wrote Maya is only the power of Brahman that projects a reality.

Maya projects reality? or Maya projects an illusion?or were you trying to convey that Brahman projects reality?

Can you please clarify?
 
Just a remainder that one has to be very careful in discussing about these concepts. Renuka, what I tried to say was brahman projects itself as a secondary reality or illusion or whatever appropriate term you may use. That power of projection is maya. Again I see there are different ways in which the term maya is used.
 
Dear Sravna,

Just a doubt here..you wrote Maya is only the power of Brahman that projects a reality.

Maya projects reality? or Maya projects an illusion?or were you trying to convey that Brahman projects reality?

Can you please clarify?

Dear Renuka,

I know it's for Shri Sarvna to reply...

But, with apology to Shri Srvana, I think Shri Sravna was saying that - "Maya is nothing but the "power of Brahman". The Brahman that projects reality.

That is, Maya is the product of the Brahman and the Brahman is the one that projects the absolute reality.

Saguna Brahman leads the physical world of Maya. Saguna Brahman, this physical world of Maya and the power of Maya are all the product of the absolute reality - BRAHMAN.

BRAHMAN = ABSOLUTE REALITY

Saguna Brahman PLUS Maya is the product of the ABSOLUTE REALITY.



 
Dear Renuka,

I know it's for Shri Sarvna to reply...

But, with apology to Shri Srvana, I think Shri Sravna was saying that - "Maya is nothing but the "power of Brahman". The Brahman that projects reality.

That is, Maya is the product of the Brahman and the Brahman is the one that projects the absolute reality.

Saguna Brahman leads the physical world of Maya. Saguna Brahman, this physical world of Maya and the power of Maya are all the product of the absolute reality - BRAHMAN.

BRAHMAN = ABSOLUTE REALITY

Saguna Brahman PLUS Maya is the product of the ABSOLUTE REALITY.




Thanks Ravi..I just wanted clarification so that Sravnas post wont be misunderstood.
I also suspected that's what he really meant but just wanted it to be out in the clear so that the flow of discussion is not lost becos I really appreciate the effort Sravna takes to discuss Advaita for the benefit of all.

I wish I could participate more but I have a Sanskrit exam this week and need to study but still cant resists peeking into this thread.
Will participate more next week.
 
I wish I could participate more but I have a Sanskrit exam this week and need to study but still cant resists peeking into this thread.

श्रीमति रेणुका,
संस्कृत परीक्षायां तस्यै अति उन्नत अङ्किता: प्राप्यर्थं अस्माकं हितेछा: प्रार्थना: च |
शुभमस्तु
 
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श्रीमति रेणुका,
संस्कृत परीक्षायां तस्मै अति उन्नत अङ्किता: प्राप्यर्थं अस्माकं हितेछा: प्रार्थना: च |
शुभमस्तु


Thanks ozone,

hey dear..shouldnt it have been Tasyai for me instead of तस्मै since I am female?

Thanks anyway for good wishes..

renu
 
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Why nirguna brahman is considered attributeless?

Something is an attribute of someone when it is marked by its presence in that person. For example when you say that someone is beautiful, the attribute of beauty exists in that person. There may be positive attributes and negative attributes. An attributeless state is one which has neither positive attributes or negative attributes. We consider something as positive if it is unnecessarily or detrimentally excessive , the case with negative attributes is obvious. Someone being neither fat nor lean is a good balance because both the extremes are not desirable. But saying someone is neither intelligent nor dumb is not a good balance because a lot of balance has already gone into the attribute of intelligence. It can be said to be naturally balanced largely. An even better balanced attribute is being wise. So a better balance is obtained when, someone is more intelligent than dumb.

It is in this backdrop that the attributeless state of nirguna brahman has to be considered. An attributeless state is something that represents perfect balance in all the attributes. There is nothing that can be called a feature or a characteristic. As I said calling brahman for example say as intelligent is more or less like calling it balanced or attributeless and hence cannot be said to be a feature.
 
namaste everyone.

Ramanuja's Refutation of Advaita and its Validity

Here is a compilation (for our records here at TB) of how the renowned Hindu scholar Prabhu Dutt Shastri refutes Ramanuja's arguments against Advaita, taken from the author's book The Doctrine of Maya (published in 1911). This is a rather long compilation but is worth reading as it covers all the points of objections raised by Ramanuja.

Ramanuja's criticism of the theory of Maya is embodied in his greatest work, The SribhAShya, a commentary on BAdarAyaNa's brahmasUtras. His exposition of the first sUtra occupies the largest space in his treatise, and this criticism appears under the same division. Ramanuja brings seven charges against the doctrine of Maya. We reproduce the gist of each, in order, with a criticism of our own.

i. The charge of Ashray-Anupapatti

What is the Ashraya (seat) of Maya (or avidyA)? Residing in what does it produce illusion? Surely not in the individual self, because the selfhood of the individual self is itself projected by avidyA; neither could it reside in Brahman, since He has the essential nature of self-luminous intelligence, and is thus opposed to avidyA (ignorance).

Criticism--This objection rests upon a two-fold misinterpretation. In the first place, Ramanuja starts with the idea that Maya (or avidyA) is something real, and consequently demands a seat for this 'illusion' or 'ignorance'. avidyA is decidedly not a reality: it is only the negation of vidyA, or the obscuration of it. As the fire is latent in the wood, so is our godly nature, our spiritual principle, hidden by the upAdhis.

In the second place, Ramanuja makes an unwarranted differentiation between Brahman and the individual soul. In stating the position of the Advaitin he has no right to colour it with his own conceptions. We, after Sankara, do not admit such a difference between the two. Brahman becomes the individual soul only by upAdhis, i.e., self-imposed limitations of manas, ten senses, subtle body, Karma, etc. These upAdhis may figuratively be spoken of as limiting the Atman and resolving it into the two aspects of the Highest Atman (Brahman) and the individual Atman. If, therefore, we are pressed by Ramanuja to state the residence of avidyA, we may meet him by saying that it must, if at all conceived as such, reside in the upAdhis--the mind (manas), the senses, etc. As a matter of fact, this demand of Ramanuja seems to be unjustifiable and inadmissible. It wholly rests upon his supposition of the reality of avidyA.

2. The Charge of tirodhAn-Anupapatti

The supposed 'ignorance' cannot, as maintained by its upholders, conceal Brahman, whose essential nature is self-luminosity. The concealment of luminosity means either (a) the obstruction of the origination of luminosity, or (b) the destruction of existing luminosity. But as it is held that the luminosity of Brahman is incapable of being a produced thing, the concealment of luminosity must mean the destruction of luminosity, which, in other words, amounts to the destruction of the essential nature of Brahman.

Criticism--This objection is based upon Ramanuja's losing hold of the real position of the upholders of Maya. Our 'ignorance' is merely negative. It has no positive existence to be able to conceal anything else in the strict sense. Brahman is ever the same in its splendour and luminosity, but we fail to see it only through our own avidyA, which can, therefore, in no way be said to be able to conceal Brahman in the sense of destroying its luminosity. In the same way, if a follower of Ramanuja were to ask Kant, "Why do we not see the thing-in-itself (das Ding-an-sich)?" he would at once reply, "Because between that and ourselves are the intellectual forms (upAdhis] of Time, Space, and Causality." Thus we are not explaining away the difficulty pointed out by Ramanuja when we say that we deny the concealment (tirodhAna) of Brahman by ignorance (avidyA).

3. The Charge of svarUp-Anupapatti

What is the essential nature of avidyA? As long as it is a thing at all, it must either have the nature of reality or of unreality. But it is not admitted to be a reality;* and it cannot be an unreality, for, as long as a real misguiding error, different from Brahman Himself, is not admitted, so long it is not possible to explain the theory of illusion. If Brahman Himself have the character of the misguiding error, then, owing to his eternity, there would be no final release to the individual self.

[*Note: Here Ramanuja rightly understands the standpoint, but at once again makes a great confusion and becomes inconsistent when criticizing the theory on the basis of the assumed reality of Maya.]

Criticism--The whole difficulty is purely factitious. Certainly we do not admit the reality of Maya, but at the same time we do not hold that it is unreal from the empirical standpoint as well. Empirically it is sat (existing): the world is, but it is Maya. Ramanuja is too anxious and tactful to corner us by his dilemmas. But as a rule these dilemmas have one of the two horns already broken, since he generally starts with self-assumed premises, and draws his own inferences from them, most logically, of course.

The question as to what is the cause of Maya is, in the sense in which it is asked, an illegitimate one. Causality is the general law in the world (in Maya), but it has no warrant to transcend itself and ask, "What is the cause of Maya?" The category only applies within the phenomenal world, and at once breaks down when stretched out of it. Everything within Maya has a cause, but Maya has no cause. The same fact would be stated by Kant in the words "Causality is the universal law of the empirical world". Hence the question as to causality being meaningless in the present context, we are not obliged to answer it.

Again, when Ramanuja suggests that "as long as a real misguiding error, different from Brahman, is not admitted, so long it is not possible to explain the theory," the suggestion seems to us to convey hardly any meaning, since the moment we grant a real existence to Maya, our whole theory falls with it; a real dualism between the two realities (facing each other) will be at once created, and this will in no way afford even the slightest explanation of the theory. We wonder how Ramanuja himself would try to explain the theory even on these dualistic premises. The whole of this charge, therefore, is imaginary and futile.

4. The Charge of AnirvachanIyatv-Anupapatti

The Advaitins says that Maya is anirvachanIyA, i.e., incapable of definition, because it is neither an entity (sat) nor a non-entity (asat). To hold such a view is impossible. All cognitions relate to entities or non-entities; and if it be held that the object of a cognition has neither the positive characteristics of an entity nor the negative characteristics of a non-entity, then all things may become the objects of all cognitions.

Criticism--This difficulty is couched in a very clever and catchy way. Yet the whole rests on a misconception, viz., the want or perceiving clearly what the "tertium comparationis" is in each case. sat and asat sound two contradictory conceptions, and to say that a thing ("an object of cognition") is neither sat nor asat is not to say anything about it at all. But the thing is thought of in two wholly different aspects, and the tertium comparationis is not common to both.

Maya, we say, is neither sat nor asat, neither an 'entity' nor a 'non-entity.' It is not sat, since the Atman alone is real, and it is not asat, since it appears at least, or in other words, maintains itself as an iva ('as it were'). Where is the contradiction now? Does not this very fact allow us to speak of Maya as something mysterious, incapable of a strict definition ?

5. The charge of pramAn-Anupapatti

Is there any means by which this curious avidyA is brought within the range of our cognition? It can neither be proved by perception nor by inference. Neither can it be established by revelation, as the scriptural passages can be explained otherwise.

Criticism--In the light of what we have said above this objection stands self-condemned. When we do not believe in the real existence of Maya, what logic is there in requiring us to prove the existence of it? If we had granted its reality, then indeed we could be called upon to name the source of its knowledge perception, inference, revelation, etc. However, to prove the validity of our conception we do not require any marshalled arguments or formal syllogisms. It is as clear as anything, when we recall to our mind the nature of avidyA, which, as we have shown after Sankara, is an erroneous transfer of the things and relations of the objective world to the Self in the strictest sense of the word.

Further, Ramanuja examines a few scriptural passages, and giving them another interpretation, infers that all such passages can be so explained as not to corroborate the theory of avidyA. He might draw any meaning out of the few passages he has gone into, so long as he is bent upon showing the untenableness of Maya, but there still remains a large number of passages, among which the metaphysics of Yajnavalkya occupies a prominent place, that defy all such attempts at a forced, far-fetched and perverted interpretation.

When we know that we are in reality no other than the Absolute Spirit, and that the Atman is the only reality; and yet we feel that we are different from the Absolute and that the world in which we live, move and have our being, is real, to what shall we attribute this clash between our knowledge and feelings? Is it not a mystery? And what else could we say but that this is due to our ignorance, the 'erroneous transference' spoken of above?

6. The Charge of nivartak-Anupapatti

This difficulty is in relation to the idea that the cessation of avidyA takes place solely by means of the knowledge which has the attributeless Brahman for its object. Brahman is not without attributes and qualities, since there are many passages which prove that He is possessed of these. Moreover, the grammatical equations, such as "tattvam asi" ("That art Thou"), do not denote the oneness of any attributeless thing, they are not intended to give rise to the stultification of any illusion due to avidyA; but they simply show that Brahman is capable of existing in two different modes or forms. The universe is the body of which Brahman is the soul. He is Himself all the three entities God, soul and matter. Consequently, the knowledge which has an attributeless Brahman for its object is impossible and cannot be the complete knowledge of truth; and obviously such an impossible knowledge of the oneness of the attributeless Brahman cannot be the remover of the avidyA postulated by the Advaitins.

Criticism--The force of this objection lies mainly in the supposition that "Brahman is not without attributes," and it is further pointed out by Ramanuja that many passages of the Shruti prove this thesis. In the light of Sankara's Advaita, as briefly described in Chapter II, we fail to see the force of this argument. To say that there are some scriptural passages bearing out the assertion may equally be met by the counter-proposition that there are also passages countenancing the attributelessness of Brahman. If, then, both these assertions neutralize each other from the scriptural point of view, one may well ask, 'What then is the real trend and purport of the Vaidic thought?' It seems to us that this question could not be better answered than by repeating the doctrine of Sankara when he attempted to synthesize the whole of the Shruti by taking a wide conspectus of its purport. All passages which speak of the qualified Brahman may be placed under aparA vidyA, while parA will include only those that expound the metaphysical truth as it is. Brahman may, from a lower standpoint, be conceived as "with attributes," but the ultimate truth remains that He is really "without attributes." Besides, the conception of the Absolute in the strict sense leaves hardly any room for "attributes." Impose any attributes and you at once make the Absolute "non-absolute," i.e., destroy his very nature by making parichchinna (limited) that which is aparichchinna (without limits).

Again, Ramanuja denies that the text, 'tat tvam asi,' denotes the oneness of the individual with the attributeless Universal, and holds that it simply brings out Brahman's capability of existing in two forms or modes. Now, this seems to us to be an ambiguous use of language. That Brahman exists in two opposite forms will be meaningless if one of the forms were not supposed to be due to avidyA. How can a being exist in two contradictory forms? chit and achit are two opposite notions in the system of Ramanuja, but he has not succeeded in reconciling their existence by merely saying that they are two modes of the Absolute. To picture the universe as the body of Brahman is after all a mere analogy, which hardly makes the matter even a jot clearer. Even by investing God with all auspicious attributes, how will Ramanuja account for the existence of evil (moral) or error (psychological)? Simply to say, as did Plato, that God is good, hence the universe must be good, is no explanation, but a mere shirking of the question. Like Plato, Ramanuja uses many analogies and metaphors while speaking of Brahman, but the Advaitist cannot but take all these as mere mythical representations.

Hence, with our denial of the qualified aspect of Brahman as a metaphysical truth is linked the denial of "the impossibility of the knowledge which has an attributeless Brahman for its object."

avidyA being like darkness is itself expelled when light comes in. jnAna is the remover of ajnAna. As we have already pointed out above, the expression 'knowledge of Brahman' is strictly inadmissible, since Brahman is itself knowledge (jnAna) of course the term being used in the higher sense of 'pure consciousness.'

7. The Charge of Nivrtty-anupapatti

The removal of the Advaitin's hypothetical 'ignorance' is quite impossible. The individual soul's bondage of 'ignorance' is determined by Karma and is a concrete reality. It cannot therefore be removed by any abstract knowledge but only by divine worship and grace. Moreover, according to the Advaitins the differentiation between the knower, knowledge, and the known is unreal; and even that knowledge, which is capable of removing avidyA has to be unreal and has to stand in need of another real removing knowledge.

Criticism--Our struggle with Karma is undoubtedly real so long as our consciousness of the true nature of Brahman has not arisen. Karma, its determinations, and with it everything else, is supposed to be real, but only so far. We have already quoted passages from Sankara where he clearly and unequivocally makes this concession, 'vyAvahArically' (i.e., from the practical or empiric point of view), as he calls it. It may therefore be called 'a concrete reality,' but with the explicit understanding that such a reality is after all 'phenomenal.' We do not hold the efficacy of Karma in the case of one who has attained the knowledge of Brahman; such a man, being free from all desires and motives, all springs of action, is pari passu beyond the control of Karma insofar as he is not creating any fresh and new Karma for himself. The laws of Karma are valid within the phenomenal, but in no way do they produce any real knowledge to the Atman, whose very nature forbids all such bondages.

The idea of divine worship and grace may be supported for the sake of the ordinary minds unable to go round the higher path of pure knowledge. But surely the idea of grace, etc., is not an exalted conception. Truly speaking, grace is only possible when there is a direct and perfect communion--in other words, an 'identity'--between the two forms of consciousness. This fact, too, shows that the ultimate nature of man and God is 'Consciousness.' So long as our ignorance is not cast away by the acquirement of 'knowledge'--which alone is capable of ousting its opponent--liberation is impossible. Without such a knowledge, mere devotion or deeds will never lead one to the same goal.

As to the differentiation between the knower (jnAtA), knowledge (jnAna),and the known (jneya), we have to repeat that the distinction is certainly fictitious in the absolute sense. It is made by us and it is real for all our practical purposes. The metaphysical truth does not attempt to devour the world in its practical aspect. The knowledge removing avidyA--if we are at all to say 'removal' of avidyA--is not unreal. Unreal knowledge cannot destroy unreality. Knowledge in the lower sense of a relation between 'subject' and 'object' is of course unreal, but such knowledge is unable to give a deathblow to avidyA. On the dawning of true knowledge the artificial distinction between 'subject' and 'object' vanishes. "By what shall we know the knower (the subject of all knowledge)?" as was so forcibly asked by Yajnavalkya.

Conclusion

These are in brief the seven difficulties which Ramanuja perceived in the doctrine of Maya. As will appear from what we have said above, Ramanuja's criticism rests on the whole on a misunderstanding of the genuine Advaita standpoint. All through he has been treating Maya as if it were a concrete reality, even perhaps existing in space, etc. We do not accuse him even because he attempted to reject Sankara's premises. But we fail to see his consistency, when even on his own premises he falls short of furnishing a really adequate explanation of the relation between God and the Universe. His doctrine of divine grace, devotion, etc., is apt to appeal strongly to many Christian theologians, who will therefore naturally prefer his philosophy to that of Sankara. Be as it may, to us it seems evident that Sankara's analysis of Reality went much further than Ramanuja's. The impersonal conception of the Absolute, we hold, is truly personal, if there is any real meaning in 'personality.' This is how we will meet those who cannot hold any such doctrine to be the ultimate if it destroys the idea of the divine personality.
 
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Thanks ozone,

hey dear..shouldnt it have been Tasyai for me instead of तस्मै since I am female?

Thanks anyway for good wishes..

renu
hi renuka,
समस्त परिक्शायम विजयी प्रप्थिरस्तु...
 
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Dear Sri Saidevo Ji,

This is great that you have posted the Advaitins' response to Acharyal Ramanuja's 'The seven great untenables'. I was starting a response in the Layman's thread, using some references and synthesis from two recent books, because they are copyrighted - I have posted the details in the other thread.

You have saved me some work. We can use your compilation of the responses to answer the critics.

As I went through each of the Anupapatti from Acharyal Ramanuja, two things jumped out - he either refutes the axioms of Advaitha, to prove his point or he misrepresents the doctrine's epistemology. I think all the untenables have been answered thoroughly on the basis of Advaitha's doctrine.

One needs to understand that Sri Ramanuja was going after discrediting this doctrine to essentially start a new Sampradhayam.

So, let the critics of Advaitha take one by one of the above responses and post their specific challenges, starting with the 'Locus of Avidya'. We can then respond appropriately with more specific responses.

I am hoping that this dialog will not only show that there are valid responses to counter their criticisms, it will also add to our own knowledge of Advaitha.

Thank you again.

Regards,
KRS
 
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Originally Posted by sarma-61



Thus Sankara's advaita suffers, and that too heavily, because of his non-dualism which can be logically fitted only with the SUnyavAda of madhyamika buddhism.


Dear Sarma ji,

I wonder how it is that Sankara's Advaita can only be logically fitted with the SUnyavAda of madhyamika buddhism becos in Pancadashi of Shri Vidyaranya Swami there is refutation of the Madhyamika system in its second chapter...so if you feel that Sankara's Advaita fits Madhyamika so why do the Advaitins even care to refute it?
 
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