Anna Hazare arrested. Crowds swell in support. What will happen?

[zebra16]

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This is definitely a serious question. I just can't support a JLP that exempts big corporations and NGOs. TSS, and other supporters of this bill as is, what is your response?
Cheers!

Is it a serious question? I think not. It is a diversionary and dilatory tactic, for the following reasons:

(a) The purpose of the JLP is to root out looting of exchequer, i.e. basically to stop the government from funding corruption.

(b) The government bigwigs and babus are at present enjoying immunity from prosecution unless sanction is obtained from "competent authority". The competent authority mostly does nothing but sits on the file and no prosecution is granted. Remember how many years it took for Supreme Court to entertain the PIL against Raja & Co.

(c) The general public seldom have direct dealings with big corporation, but they cannot help but deal with Govt. departments, like income-tax, municipal authorities, railways, ration cards etc.

(d) No one needs permission to prosecute corporate bigwigs for corruption charges.

(e) In most cases of corruption allegations against babus etc. the department concerned institutes a departmental or internal inquiry, which either exonerates the accused (after watering down the charge) or at best just about transfers the pereson concerned. The orders of the discipling authority are flaunted as 'just justice" and no prosecution is sanctioned.

(f) The thrust of the movement is to root out the enforced corruption between the citizen and government servant and not internal corruption between various individuals or body corporates.

 

[sangom]

I think the objective of Anna was and still is, the eradication of corruption from India. Nowhere did I come across the slant that he is fighting only for rooting out "looting of exchequer, i.e. basically to stop the government from funding corruption". This is news. Even assuming it to be the fact, if NGOs and Corporates are exempted, will it not enable the Govt. to indulge in corruption as wantonly as it wants?

Anna's mistake seems to me, to be an adamant attitude all through. For every step of government towards reconciliation, Team Anna should also take one step forward; instead MMS, the puppet as ever is drifting without his Italian puppeteer and making circles and circles, no definite step and Team Anna is adamant that its JLP should be enacted into a Statute within the next four or five days!

A very sorry situation. I feel that Team Anna should now relax the fast and Anna should take to one meal per day or something like that, keep the agitation running and ensure at every step that the govt. and/or Parliament do not use divertionary tactics or dilute the JLP in its effectiveness.

Right now, I feel the Team Anna members may be feeling like the Malayalam usage "നായരു പിടിച്ച പുലിവാല് (nāyaru piṭicca pulivāl)".

 

[tbs]

hi
now these things going ugly turn for congress/bjp and other parties.....every political parties has corrupted candidates,,,nobody is

pure ......team anna has going to have tough time with this democratic parliamentary system.....


Yashwant, 2 other BJP MPs offer to quit

regards
tbs

 

[zebra16]

I think the objective of Anna was and still is, the eradication of corruption from India. Nowhere did I come across the slant that he is fighting only for rooting out "looting of exchequer, i.e. basically to stop the government from funding corruption". This is news. Even assuming it to be the fact, if NGOs and Corporates are exempted, will it not enable the Govt. to indulge in corruption as wantonly as it wants?

One has the option of going into a lit bit of depth of an issue and find out what is the stand of the proponents of an issue. On JLP issue, the proponents have put out what their stand is here: http://www.box.net/shared/tyqqc9d0rl8xgglqxpmj

The other option is watching the screaming headlines on TV and hazard a guess as to what the issue really is. Even here, it is possible to come to a correct conclusion and the message would not appear as "news" . For eg.
What is the Jan Lokpal Bill, why it's important item no. 4 extracted here ('The loss that a corrupt person caused to the government will be recovered at the time of conviction') makes it amply clear what is one of the "basic" aims of the movement.

Article XII, item 23(3) under the head "punishments" (as proposed by the civil society activists ( Jan_Lokpal_Bill_ver_2.3.pdf - File Shared from Box.net) gives details of the proposed punishment to the offender, if it is a business entity, and as already stated there is no immunity (till sanction from "competent authority") enjoyed by these entities at present from prosecution.

 

[H.Krishnamurthy]

Dear YAMAKA sir,
I donot find any reason to accept your wordings about Karnataka and the BJP rule here.
Point 1. To meet water shortage or filure by Govt to supply pottable water to remote places , one can have his own Well / Bore well and manage.
Point no 2. To meet power crisis one can have systems like UPS or his own Generators.
Besides these two for normal living you need proper roads , Drainage system etc, which to some fair extent BJP did in the past 3 Years in Karnataka.( Atleast in Bangalore ).
During the Congress Misrule for past 50 years in Karnataka nothing was done.
Infact there was no proper road connectivity from Bangalore to most of the northeren Karnataka Districts. Needless to talk about Train services.
BJP in the past 3 years took some drastic steps for providing Road to these places and made transportation was possible. Ofcourse Railways Mr. BSY held some positive discussion with Mamta and some steps intiated.
A simple example of Congress ruling Karnataka.
We Karnataka people made Indiraji to win election from Chickmagalur when she lost from Raebareli. What is the returns to Karnataka , Just nothing .
When Soniaji was doubtful about election outcome in UP we elected her to Parliament from Bellary.
What is the returns Just nothing.
When Mr. C.M. Strphen was struggling for an entry to Parliament we voted him from Gulburga , his returns were to argue in the parliament against the interst of Public Sector Workers.
Same with Indiraji in 1980 she contested from Medak in A.P. as cover up constituency, the returns to Medak was a good ordinance factory with which roughly 25000 family live with decent living.
Intially it was told that Chickmagalur being a fertile land with lots of Agricultural land and an industry can not be started.
What about Gulburga a natural dry land and Bellary still a worst marulu Bhoomi. What stopped Congress in intiating industrial activity in these places as a sort of returns.
Now you people sitting outside Karnataka speak of wrong doing of Mr. BSY and Reddy Bros in Mining Scam of Bellary.
When the same Reddy Bros with YSR did it upto 2008 every business was legal, after YSR's death it is tottally illegal is it.
BSY accepted his mistakes in denotification of land in Bangalore and Mr. HDK and the entire Congress was intersted in probing of this scam of only BJP's regime and not during the regime of MR. S.M. Krishna or the denotifications of JD(S).
I am not a BJP supporter infact not a supporter of any Political party , but sad to note the happening in Karnataka.
Congress as far as educated mass in Karnataka is like Parthenium weed ( Infact It was named as congress grass intially ) and Mr. HDK , Devegowda and JD (S ) are bunch of comedians .
We are clear that Partenium weed cannot be eliminated like wise Congress cannot be wiped out from Karnataka.
Infact Congress in Karnataka is so weak , cannot with stand the myth of BJP , so they need the clowns from JD ( S ) who are ready to make all thamashas at some good cost. Which Congress is ready pay and accept.

 

[sangom]

RQUOTE=zebra16;94085]One has the option of going into a lit bit of depth of an issue and find out what is the stand of the proponents of an issue. On JLP issue, the proponents have put out what their stand is here: http://www.box.net/shared/tyqqc9d0rl8xgglqxpmj

The other option is watching the screaming headlines on TV and hazard a guess as to what the issue really is. Even here, it is possible to come to a correct conclusion and the message would not appear as "news" . For eg.
What is the Jan Lokpal Bill, why it's important item no. 4 extracted here ('The loss that a corrupt person caused to the government will be recovered at the time of conviction') makes it amply clear what is one of the "basic" aims of the movement.

Article XII, item 23(3) under the head "punishments" (as proposed by the civil society activists ( Jan_Lokpal_Bill_ver_2.3.pdf - File Shared from Box.net) gives details of the proposed punishment to the offender, if it is a business entity, and as already stated there is no immunity (till sanction from "competent authority") enjoyed by these entities at present from prosecution.[/QUOTE]

Dear Shri Zebra,

When you say "One has the option of going into a lit bit of depth of an issue and find out what is the stand of the proponents of an issue.", I get the impression that you want everyone else (at least in this forum and posting) should know whatever you know about that subject/issue. You will agree that this is rather impractical in a large net world.

Frankly, even after reading all the materials furnished by you, I am still not able to hear "sarkari ghoos" in the channels; they always talk about corruption in general terms. May be I am not sufficiently intelligent, not as net-savvy as you are.

 

[H.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Yamka Sir,
We will accept one thing first.
The S.C. to study JLP and makes it's view to parliament is not the right one. bcoz how sinciere are these persons.
There is a song in old tamil movie that 'Tirudana parthu tirundaravarayil tiruttai olikka mudiyadhu ' . means you want us to wait till the tirudan tirundaravarai. No way sir.
In our language there is one more proverb ' thana kaniyadhadhai thadi kondu than adikkanum. '
That is true for present situation.
Make harder punishment for any crime. A crime is a crime no question of petty crime etc.
Same case for Politicians too.
If some body is found guilty like A.Raja or Mr. Kalmadi . Snatch all his wealth ( means all from his benami ). Deposit in the Govt treasury and use it for useful projects.
Make a resolution that his party cannot contest in that constituency ( the one where the corrupt got elected )atleast for 3 terms.
In case if the culprit directly or indirectly working for his party, like canvassing , in other constituency declare the candidature of that beneficiary party candidate as void.
Then you just see the changes.
This is what we expect as after effect of Janlokpal. We need somebody to bell the cat sir. Let it be A.H.

 

[sadasivam.sridharan]

Sri.H.Krishnamurthy - Well said !

 

[sarang]

Dear Yamka Sir,
If some body is found guilty like A.Raja or Mr. Kalmadi . Snatch all his wealth ( means all from his benami ). Deposit in the Govt treasury and use it for useful projects.
Make a resolution that his party cannot contest in that constituency ( the one where the corrupt got elected )atleast for 3 terms.
In case if the culprit directly or indirectly working for his party, like canvassing , in other constituency declare the candidature of that beneficiary party candidate as void.
Then you just see the changes.
This is what we expect as after effect of Janlokpal. We need somebody to bell the cat sir. Let it be A.H.

I agree, sir. Confiscate all property and banish/ ostracise.

 

[kunjuppu]

there was a note, if i remember from sangom, as to how the foreign press was covering the scandals.

today, in the toronto globe There was a full page article on the 2G scandal, kanimozhi, anna et al.

All that was not news to me. but boggled me was the mention of Tripuraneni Hanuman Chowdary, a bureaucrat, whose name I had not heard before. Apparently, it was a committee headed by him, in the 1990s, that paved the path for privitization of the telecom, and removing the stranglehold of the P&T department on our moribund phone system. we also see chowdary, with his big naamam, giving his view of where we went wrong.

I used to have a relative working for the telephones, and you should see the number of excuses they used to come up with for what was probably the worst telephone system in the world, of the 1960s. my dad had to wait for 7 years to get a phone line, and when he passed away, the line was given to a relative, so that a phone with his name was serviced by P&T for many years after his death. Such was our stupid system. When the needs are not met, there is always an avenue open for corruption.

Today ofcourse all these are history. We have I think the cheapest phone systems in the world. And Canada has among the most expensive. (envy envy ).

Interestingly, subramaniam swamy, comes out only as tag byline – the author acknowledges swamy’s role for blowing this up, but only because a couple of disgruntled civil servants, who probably were not satisfied with their share of the payoffs, blew the whistle, to swamy. Otherwise the 2G scam might have been kept under the wraps. Forever.

The moral of the story is, that when the crooks divide the loot, ensure that each crook, gets his fair share.

Telecom scandal shakes India’s most beloved industry - The Globe and Mail

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamka Sir,
We will accept one thing first.
The S.C. to study JLP and makes it's view to parliament is not the right one. bcoz how sinciere are these persons.
There is a song in old tamil movie that 'Tirudana parthu tirundaravarayil tiruttai olikka mudiyadhu ' . means you want us to wait till the tirudan tirundaravarai. No way sir.
In our language there is one more proverb ' thana kaniyadhadhai thadi kondu than adikkanum. '
That is true for present situation.
Make harder punishment for any crime. A crime is a crime no question of petty crime etc.
Same case for Politicians too.
If some body is found guilty like A.Raja or Mr. Kalmadi . Snatch all his wealth ( means all from his benami ). Deposit in the Govt treasury and use it for useful projects.
Make a resolution that his party cannot contest in that constituency ( the one where the corrupt got elected )atleast for 3 terms.
In case if the culprit directly or indirectly working for his party, like canvassing , in other constituency declare the candidature of that beneficiary party candidate as void.
Then you just see the changes.
This is what we expect as after effect of Janlokpal. We need somebody to bell the cat sir. Let it be A.H.

Dear Krish Sir:

1. A crime is a crime... I agree. But how to establish anything as a crime? Not by emotional people!

Take for example, the 2G Scam:

CAG contends that (a notional loss of) 1.7 lakh crore rupee is lost from the Treasury because the 2G was NOT auctioned to the highest bidder.

FACT already known: Both NDA and UPA I Gov't decided to sell 1G and 2G spectrum for a very nominal price to the First Qualified First Served (a modification of First Come First Served) basis.

That's what Arun Shouri, Dayanidhi Maran and A. Raja did.

Rationale of this Policy Decision: The basic wireless technology must be accessible to the poorest of the poor in India... Because of this policy, India has already achieved this: the cost there is the CHEAPEST in the entire world to use the basic wireless service.

Then Why so much hoopla?: Dirty Politics.

I bet you this CBI case on Raja and Kani will dissolve into nothing once the Special Court hears from the PM, the then Finance Minister and the current Telecom Minster that NO LOSS occurred to the Treasury because of sale of 2G...

This will happen, wait & watch.

2. Anna Hazare has left out NGOs and Corporates in his Campaign... why? This is very bad... he is being funded by the Corporates, who want to grab as much power away from the People and Politicians...

Anna Hazare is a Manchurian Candidate, IMO... his approach is very dangerous to Democracy.

So far what he has achieved? Nearly nothing, after 10 days of Suicidal Attempt!!

The Parliament is going to debate on ALL four Lokpal Plans including Anna's... then there will be voting...

The Majority will vote for what they believe is the Right Lokpal Bill... that should be the way, if you believe in Parliamentary Democracy as per India's Constitution.

Wait & watch.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Yamka Sir,
We will accept one thing first.
The S.C. to study JLP and makes it's view to parliament is not the right one. bcoz how sinciere are these persons.

if you don't trust standing committee, then you may not trust the parliament too,because, all such committees are set up by our parliament.

in such a situation, do you have any other alternative form of governing system?

may be a presidential system, similar to pakistan with a ex-army men like parvez as president? annas modus operandi will definitely work in such set ups!

 

[Nara]

Dear narayan,

I think for corruption to take place there must be at least two parties involved, and there must be a quid pro quo of sorts. To exempt one party from any responsibility, and to go on a hunger strike to uphold this reverse robinhood principle, is perplexing.

On the one hand we have government officials taking bribes for some services -- it is bad, it is frustrating, I rather not have such corruption, but the amounts are relatively small, and the loss to government is relatively small.

Compare this with the wholesale robbery perpetrated by a small cabal of thieves masquerading as businessmen and politicians, their loot of the exchequer runs in the order of lakhs of crores.

Is AH's hunger strike about protecting these high-end thieving businessmen? Why is this not a serious question?

If protecting the government treasury is the intent, then the nexus between businessmen and high political/government officials must be the primary, if not the only, focus of JLP, and is a cause worth fighting for. If private corporations colluding with politicians and high government officials and robbing the treasury of Rs. 1.5 lakh crore are to be protected from the reach of JLP, <scratch my head>, then what is the point?

Is AH on hunger strike to be very vigilant against the Rs10,000 bribes, but turn a blind eye to losses that run to Rs. 1.5 lakh crores?

Cheers!

 

[zebra16]

Dear narayan,

I think for corruption to take place there must be at least two parties involved, and there must be a quid pro quo of sorts. To exempt one party from any responsibility, and to go on a hunger strike to uphold this reverse robinhood principle, is perplexing.

On the one hand we have government officials taking bribes for some services -- it is bad, it is frustrating, I rather not have such corruption, but the amounts are relatively small, and the loss to government is relatively small.

Compare this with the wholesale robbery perpetrated by a small cabal of thieves masquerading as businessmen and politicians, their loot of the exchequer runs in the order of lakhs of crores.

Is AH's hunger strike about protecting these high-end thieving businessmen? Why is this not a serious question?

If protecting the government treasury is the intent, then the nexus between businessmen and high political/government officials must be the primary, if not the only, focus of JLP, and is a cause worth fighting for. If private corporations colluding with politicians and high government officials and robbing the treasury of Rs. 1.5 lakh crore are to be protected from the reach of JLP, <scratch my head>, then what is the point?

Is AH on hunger strike to be very vigilant against the Rs10,000 bribes, but turn a blind eye to losses that run to Rs. 1.5 lakh crores?

Cheers!

Sri Nara Sir,

That AH did not include private corporations in his anti-corruption campaign is a canard sought to be spread. I reproduce the extract once again:

Article XII, item 23(3) under the head "punishments" (as proposed by the civil society activists ( Jan_Lokpal_Bill_ver_2.3.pdf - File Shared from Box.net) gives details of the proposed punishment to the offender, if it is a business entity, and as already stated there is no immunity (till sanction from "competent authority") enjoyed by these entities at present from prosecution.

Regards,

narayan

 

[Yamaka]

Dear YAMAKA sir,
I donot find any reason to accept your wordings about Karnataka and the BJP rule here.
Point 1. To meet water shortage or filure by Govt to supply pottable water to remote places , one can have his own Well / Bore well and manage.
Point no 2. To meet power crisis one can have systems like UPS or his own Generators.
Besides these two for normal living you need proper roads , Drainage system etc, which to some fair extent BJP did in the past 3 Years in Karnataka.( Atleast in Bangalore ).
During the Congress Misrule for past 50 years in Karnataka nothing was done.
Infact there was no proper road connectivity from Bangalore to most of the northeren Karnataka Districts. Needless to talk about Train services.
BJP in the past 3 years took some drastic steps for providing Road to these places and made transportation was possible. Ofcourse Railways Mr. BSY held some positive discussion with Mamta and some steps intiated.
A simple example of Congress ruling Karnataka.
We Karnataka people made Indiraji to win election from Chickmagalur when she lost from Raebareli. What is the returns to Karnataka , Just nothing .
When Soniaji was doubtful about election outcome in UP we elected her to Parliament from Bellary.
What is the returns Just nothing.
When Mr. C.M. Strphen was struggling for an entry to Parliament we voted him from Gulburga , his returns were to argue in the parliament against the interst of Public Sector Workers.
Same with Indiraji in 1980 she contested from Medak in A.P. as cover up constituency, the returns to Medak was a good ordinance factory with which roughly 25000 family live with decent living.
Intially it was told that Chickmagalur being a fertile land with lots of Agricultural land and an industry can not be started.
What about Gulburga a natural dry land and Bellary still a worst marulu Bhoomi. What stopped Congress in intiating industrial activity in these places as a sort of returns.
Now you people sitting outside Karnataka speak of wrong doing of Mr. BSY and Reddy Bros in Mining Scam of Bellary.
When the same Reddy Bros with YSR did it upto 2008 every business was legal, after YSR's death it is tottally illegal is it.
BSY accepted his mistakes in denotification of land in Bangalore and Mr. HDK and the entire Congress was intersted in probing of this scam of only BJP's regime and not during the regime of MR. S.M. Krishna or the denotifications of JD(S).
I am not a BJP supporter infact not a supporter of any Political party , but sad to note the happening in Karnataka.
Congress as far as educated mass in Karnataka is like Parthenium weed ( Infact It was named as congress grass intially ) and Mr. HDK , Devegowda and JD (S ) are bunch of comedians .
We are clear that Partenium weed cannot be eliminated like wise Congress cannot be wiped out from Karnataka.
Infact Congress in Karnataka is so weak , cannot with stand the myth of BJP , so they need the clowns from JD ( S ) who are ready to make all thamashas at some good cost. Which Congress is ready pay and accept.

Dear Krish Sir:

I hear you on what's happening in Karnataka and the BJP and Congress.

My stand has been this -

1. Corruption/bribery/graft/abuse of power all are entrenched in our Indian Society.. the political parties and their leaders simply reflect what is ALREADY there.

2. There are very many laws on the books already to curb them, if not totally abolish them... many are ignored and not implemented because we don't have people of high Integrity and Professionalism in our prosecutors, police, CBI, ED, courts and judges...all of whom again reflect what we have in the Society at large...

3. What good will we get by enacting some more laws in the name of Lokpal or Lokuktha etc if the Integrity and Professionalism is going to be as low as it is today?

Anna and Team do not understand this very BASIC fundamental issue in the Society.

4. As I am not a voting member in India, I only look at the Political Manifesto of Parties:

I don't like BJP because they are into Hindu Nationalism (propagating Hindutva) and their Economic Policy is geared towards the upper crest of India via their "Shining India" slogan which got trounced in 2004 and 2009 National Elections.

This could very well happen in 2014 also... this Anna Hoopla etc will emotionalize the corruption issue further, but getting GOOD RESULTS will be very elusive.

India needs a Viable National Opposition Party.. and BJP is not the one as per their Manifesto, IMO.

Therefore, I am left with only Congress Party - the Oldest National Party in India.

Stay tuned.

 

[Nara]

Hello narayan,

Thanks for the link of JLP proposal. I read it carefully enough to see whether your charge of canard is valid.

First, speaking for myself, I welcome a strong JLP, with investigative and prosecutorial authority over corrupt practices both inside government and outside. I strongly oppose giving the JLP any power to pass judgement and assess penalty of any kind, monetary or physical confinement, etc. On both counts, AH's JLP proposal is appallingly one-sided.

Please read my comments below within the context of this stated position.

That AH did not include private corporations in his anti-corruption campaign is a canard sought to be spread.

This statement is at best technically correct, AH's proposal does include private businesses, but it is not in the same footing. The main target of AH's proposal is government officials, which I will support if it is restricted to high officials and includes private businesses.

There is no mention anywhere in the document where this JLP is given the authority to investigate private businesses for corrupt practices, that job is left to Prevention of Corruption Act.

The only time private businesses are discussed in the proposal is when penalties are meted out after a government official is found guilty of corruption. At this point, the government official will face a minimum of 6 months of rigorous imprisonment in addition to monetary penalties.

On the contrary, the private business, if found to have benefited by this corrupt act, would face stiff monetary penalties -- but no jail time for any of its officials. The top management will face their personal wealth getting attached if the business does not have sufficient assets.

This is a toothless provision, no business worth its name is going to expose their name and business to such risks, one has to dig deep to find a connection, and even deeper to show it benefited.

For any corrupt act to take place there must be two parties. For a government official to commit a corrupt act, there must be an equally culpable private party actively participating in the illegal act and benefiting from it. Yet, the government official will be sent to prison, rightly so, but, the businessman will go Scot free.

So, narayan, after reading the attached document, I have to reject what your canard charge. For me, to support JLP, there must be symmetry in the rules governing investigation, prosecution, and penalties between high government officials and businessmen.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

I though the term 'corruption' applies only if one of the parties is government or public. In private company transactions, for example, the purchase manager wants money to release an order or the HR head demands money for giving jobs or the accounts dept expects money for releasing payment, the management can take quick action - investigation, sacking and filing a case - all in one day.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Sri Anna Hazare has woken up the sleeping Citizens by his agitation against Corruption. Now it is time that the Politicians should ponder over the issue carefully and find a solution. The first step should be to pass a genuine Lok Pal Bill in the parliament. The draft bill of Anna Hazare may have faults, but it seems to be much better than the one prepared by the Government. Let a panel of eminent jurists examine all issues and prepare a good Lok Pal Bill to be placed before the Parliament.


Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

Hello narayan,

Thanks for the link of JLP proposal. I read it carefully enough to see whether your charge of canard is valid.

First, speaking for myself, I welcome a strong JLP, with investigative and prosecutorial authority over corrupt practices both inside government and outside. I strongly oppose giving the JLP any power to pass judgement and assess penalty of any kind, monetary or physical confinement, etc. On both counts, AH's JLP proposal is appallingly one-sided.

Please read my comments below within the context of this stated position.


This statement is at best technically correct, AH's proposal does include private businesses, but it is not in the same footing. The main target of AH's proposal is government officials, which I will support if it is restricted to high officials and includes private businesses.

There is no mention anywhere in the document where this JLP is given the authority to investigate private businesses for corrupt practices, that job is left to Prevention of Corruption Act.

The only time private businesses are discussed in the proposal is when penalties are meted out after a government official is found guilty of corruption. At this point, the government official will face a minimum of 6 months of rigorous imprisonment in addition to monetary penalties.

On the contrary, the private business, if found to have benefited by this corrupt act, would face stiff monetary penalties -- but no jail time for any of its officials. The top management will face their personal wealth getting attached if the business does not have sufficient assets.

This is a toothless provision, no business worth its name is going to expose their name and business to such risks, one has to dig deep to find a connection, and even deeper to show it benefited.

For any corrupt act to take place there must be two parties. For a government official to commit a corrupt act, there must be an equally culpable private party actively participating in the illegal act and benefiting from it. Yet, the government official will be sent to prison, rightly so, but, the businessman will go Scot free.

So, narayan, after reading the attached document, I have to reject what your canard charge. For me, to support JLP, there must be symmetry in the rules governing investigation, prosecution, and penalties between high government officials and businessmen.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

In CBI/Income-Tax investigation raids, it is generally understood that if the authorities finally say some amount of cash and/or gold has been unearthed as black money, then one can be sure that the actual amounts found will be a certain percentage more. This is what I have come to know from interaction with many knowledgeable people over the last so many years. I am not aware of the further details. The lesson to be learnt is that informed people do not believe that even the CBI or IT raiding parties are honest.

When the actual conditions in this country are such, my doubt is how the JLP or even a super JLP will be able to eradicate corruption in India? If anything, when the JLP/Lokayuktas come into being in full swing and their investigative wing gets working, the corrupt people will have a higher risk of getting caught and hence a higher insurance cost (chances of raid and the risk of sharing with the investigators going up) to reckon with. The result will be that the rates of bribery will increase substantially The panchayat office peon who would "move your petition" for 20 rupees will now demand 50; if you don't pay they will still have umpteen ways to harass you, despite citizens' Charter and what not. In a few years a gargantuan empire of the JLP/Lokayukta staff and corrupt government servants will be in charge of this country. Even if the 14 JLP members and all the Lokayuktas are 101% honest and sincere, they will be helpless spectators only, signing on the dotted line.

I genuinely feel that many of our members are either overlooking these ground realities or they have not yet understood how pervasive corruption is in this land. I was hesitating to write about the modus operandi of the raid-parties so far but am now forced to do so. People who have close friends or relatives in CBI or IT investigation wing may consult and satisfy themselves.

 

[Yamaka]

Home » Editorial » Op-ed​

Chairman Mao & Anna

• August 25, 2011
• By Shekhar Singh | Anirudh Deshpande
• DC Debate

Tags: Anna Hazare, Arundhati Roy

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    • By Shekhar Singh, National Campaign for People’s Right to Information

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Arundhati Roy has compared Anna Hazare’s movement to the Maoists. Admittedly, both are trying to paralyse the state. The Maoists threaten with a violent uprising and pit their armed might against a government which typically has much more of it.
Hazare, on the other hand, threatens the government with a non-violent uprising and pits his public credibility against theirs, which almost by definition the government has a deficit of.
The Maoists do not believe that the current system can provide justice to people. They see the laws and processes of the system as means of oppressing the masses, especially the poor and the marginalised.
Hazare demands the passing of a strong anti-corruption law and the setting up of an immensely powerful Lokpal institution, which would ensure that the laws of the state are strictly followed.
On the face of it Mr Hazare reiterates his support for the system and only wants to strengthen it. However, by demanding that a democratically-elected government and Parliament suspend their own judgment and processes and do what he wants them to do, he is in essence saying that the system can be bypassed if a sufficient number of people demand so.
He is also saying that no other views need to be considered. But why should there be no hearing for those who think a single Lokpal for 40 lakh officials, judiciary, politicians, covering corruption and grievance redress, would be too unwieldy to be effective and too powerful to be trusted? How do we put across our suggestions about multiple, decentralised Lokpals?
The Maoists have an alternate system, whatever its merits, to replace this system. But does Mr Hazare have a plan of what to do when he bypasses this system?
What happens if Mr Hazare’s demands are not met and the elected government quits, or if his demands are met and the system is bypassed? The government will then have set a precedence — the elected government and Parliament will be bypassed again and again by protest groups.
The next time it might be the corrupt demanding the repeal of the Lokpal Bill, or bigots demanding the expulsion of all minorities, the contractor lobby demanding accelerated construction of more and more large dams, or even the upper caste demanding reservations in jobs. The fact that some of these demands are unconstitutional would be no barrier, for if a group can take over the legislative powers of Parliament, then why not its powers to amend the Constitution?
Anna is not a democrat
By Anirudh Deshpande, History professor, Delhi University
All viable democratic systems tread a delicate path between the extreme Left and Right. Democracy means respect for differences and their reconciliation within a constitutional framework. A democracy, by normative definition, is inclusive, based on the rule of law and provides its citizens the equality of opportunity and a welfare state.
In India the normative definition of democracy has never translated into a substantive gain for the masses. Democracy has been reduced to suffrage. Corruption is symptomatic of the Indian state’s failure. All mainstream parties, including those who support Team Anna and hope to gain the most from the current turmoil, have contributed to this state of affairs.
The covenant between international capital, the Indian ruling class and state has driven India into an impasse of “high corruption”. Corruption is not only caused by greed overtaking need but is in direct proportion to the importance of money in an unequal and insecure society. Nowhere in the world has an oligopoly arisen without corrupting and destroying the very state which facilitates its rise.
Team Anna wants the Indian state to be accountable but is curiously silent on the accountability of the private corporations and NGOs. This “team” does not focus on the multiple causes of corruption in India. It seeks a punitive solution to a systemic problem by resorting to an intolerant cult of the individual.
It is widely known that Anna Hazare is not a democrat. By undermining Parliament and focusing crowd hysteria almost exclusively on the state, Team Anna has set a dangerous precedent. Mr Hazare’s victory will legitimise authoritarianism, strengthen the politics of blackmail and might bring a fascist to power.
The last 20 years in India have seen an unprecedented victory and celebration of capital and the denigration of labour. The share of wages in our GDP has fallen; the share of corporate profits has increased. In these conditions extreme Left movements accumulate the tinder to destroy parliamentary democracy.
The Maoist threat to pluralist democracy is radically different from the one posed by the pro-business, self-righteous middle class. The ultimate aim of the Maoists is the destruction of corporate capitalism. If they seize power and nationalise the assets of the 10 top business houses, capitalism will collapse and the era of the resident non-Indians will end.
The huge concentration of capital in a small number of business houses will make their task easier."

From Deccan Chronicle.

 

[renuka]

Anna, and the problem of being Arundhati Roy : City : Biswadeep Ghosh : TOI Blogs

 

[zebra16]

Hello narayan,


On the contrary, the private business, if found to have benefited by this corrupt act, would face stiff monetary penalties -- but no jail time for any of its officials. The top management will face their personal wealth getting attached if the business does not have sufficient assets.

Sri Nara Sir,

Let me take up just one point of your reply. In the above quoted portion of your message, you have stated that the private business houses will face stiff monetary penalties - but no jail time. I think you have missed a point. Let me reproduce Article XII, item 23(3) hereunder:

"(3) If the beneficiary of an offense is a business entity, in addition to the other punishments provided for under this Act and under the Prevention of Corruption Act, a fine of upto five times the loss caused to the public shall be recovered from the accused and the recovery may be made from the assets of the business entity and from the personal assets of its Managing Directors, if the assets of the accused person are inadequate"

The monetary penalties are in addition to prison terms ranging from 6 months to life time. So both the government servant and private business bosses are on equal footing.

Regards,

narayan

 

[sangom]

Rahul Gandhi, Ram Jethmalani, T.N. Seshan etc., all have the view that Anna's fast is going too long and the JLP will not be sufficient to combat corruption.

T.N. Seshan has given his draft to Ravi Shankar, it seems.

 

[Nara]

....Let me take up just one point of your reply.

Dear narayan, I wish you address all the important points.

"(3) If the beneficiary of an offense is a business entity, in addition to the other punishments provided for under this Act and under the Prevention of Corruption Act,

I have three responses to this:

1. Our discussion is about the problems in AH's proposal. So, what punishments may or may not be provided in Prevention of Corruption Act is irrelevant.
2. Even so, whatever punishment PCA may provide for either side, the additional punishment provided here in JLP is asymmetric, with government officials facing rigorous prison time in addition to monetary fines and businesses facing only some vague monetary penalties from which they can easily wiggle out.
3. The "in addition to the other punishments provided for under this Act" is just jargon as there are no other punishments provided elsewhere in this act for businesses that is equal in severity with that of what government officials face.

If you still think I am missing something, please elaborate.

The monetary penalties are in addition to prison terms ranging from 6 months to life time. So both the government servant and private business bosses are on equal footing.

Please provide the text where prison term is provided for businessmen.

One of my serious concerns is the inclusion of petty corruption. As Shri Sangom sir explains, eradicating petty corruption is an impossible task. This is a mandate JLP just cannot fulfill. What we will end up with is another huge bureaucracy and added difficulties to common people.

A better approach is to try to watch over big-time corruption, the kind that arises from the nexus between big business and high government officials. With a narrow scope like this, and the reach of authority covering both inside and outside government, JLP can make a serious difference. If this attempt is successful, then the scope can be expanded. Any attempt to eradicate corruption must start from the top and work its way down.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

here is mrs MMS view.

The secret diary of Mrs. Manmohan Singh | The UnReal Times

and she is an anna too

here

http://www.theunrealtimes.com/2011/08/26/first-lady-gurinder-kaur-also-goes-on-fast-demanding-pm-deliver-on-the-domestic-front/