Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi

[sravna]

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I would beg to differ.
The more one is aligned the lesser the free will.
When one is in the state of total alignment, one becomes a conduit and then one realizes that free will was actually an illusion...what we called free will is partly our prarabdha, vartamana karma and unfolding of some sanchita karma.

In total alignment, only the remaining prarabdha would keep us alive but that wont generate vasanas because the Divine Will functions through us.

At the level of alignment one cant plan anything because the Divine planner's plan prevails.

A verse in the Quran states.
" They planned and planned but God is the best of planners"

The esoteric meaning is " the loss of free will and Divine will prevails for His plans are the best for us"

Renuka,

You are saying what I said in a different way. When you are in harmony with divine what you will fructifies. But when the devil plans God would have planned ahead and devils will is unrealized.

See i quoted one more from Quran!

 

[Iyest]

Using the word agreed isnt me trying to validate Bhagawan's words..its just a figure of speech.
Kindly dont mistake the usage of the word agreed that I

Renuka ji, I was writing a standard disclaimer before my reply. Unfortunately it came across as if I was questioning your word ‘agreed’. Not at all. Apologies for my lack of clarity.

 

[renuka]

Renuka ji, I was writing a standard disclaimer before my reply. Unfortunately it came across as if I was questioning your word ‘agreed’. Not at all. Apologies for my lack of clarity.

Sorry Sir...i didnt realize it.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

You are saying what I said in a different way. When you are in harmony with divine what you will fructifies. But when the devil plans God would have planned ahead and devils will is unrealized.

See i quoted one more from Quran!

May be you are an Imam! Lol

Btw in the Quran, its stated that the Devil cant really plan anything.
The Devil only scans through us and knows what is our weak points and works on whisperings as to instigate us to act upon it.

So the Devil's plans wont work in the long run cos if a human strikes balance the Devil's whisperings wont work anymore.

Btw when we are aligned only Divine will fructifies...free will is totally lost.

 

[KRS]

Agreed...but if everything is ONLY prarabdha..then how do we generate karma for future births?

Vartamana Karma( present time karma) generates Agami Karma( future Karma) isnt it?

My knowledge is very limited. However, let me say what I think on the subject of Fate and Freewill.

My Guru always said that everything in life is according mostly to the Karma one is born with and so there is no Freewill. But we do have Freewill, only in the realm of our identification with the body-mind complex as ‘I’ or with Atman as ‘I’.

This makes total sense to me. Because, in the former case, Karma is operative and accordingly one’s thoughts and actions are prompted towards producing such results. One can not change the results. However, one can, in my opinion, follow Dharma and act accordingly, thereby accruing Punya for the future Instead of Papa.

Let us take an extreme example. It is your Karma that your friend will be killed by your action. Based on your nature, when the time comes, it can that either you kill your friend deliberately or the person is killed by accident involving you, without intention. So the former act accrues Papa and the later, especially if one tries to prevent and make amends may accrue Punya. So in this sense one can say, one has Freewill or Choice, but this not entirely the concept of Freewill we think of, because these action choices still produce the same result, a person is killed.

The above scenario is what Bhagawan attributes to as Fate. And as long as one identifies with one’s mind body complex, either Papa or Punya will accrue and the cycle will continue.

However, if one identifies with Atman, such an event, if it were to occur, will accrue no Karma.

Of course, folks who become Jnanis and are well advanced spiritually, would not have any Karma Phalas left in their birth, where they kill a friend!

I think the Karana Sareeram, of a human being negotiated through all this, as it is the ‘seed’ of each one of us, inside us.

Hope I have not displayed my ignorance too much. Thank you.

 

[renuka]

My knowledge is very limited. However, let me say what I think on the subject of Fate and Freewill.

My Guru always said that everything in life is according mostly to the Karma one is born with and so there is no Freewill. But we do have Freewill, only in the realm of our identification with the body-mind complex as ‘I’ or with Atman as ‘I’.

This makes total sense to me. Because, in the former case, Karma is operative and accordingly one’s thoughts and actions are prompted towards producing such results. One can not change the results. However, one can, in my opinion, follow Dharma and act accordingly, thereby accruing Punya for the future Instead of Papa.

Let us take an extreme example. It is your Karma that your friend will be killed by your action. Based on your nature, when the time comes, it can that either you kill your friend deliberately or the person is killed by accident involving you, without intention. So the former act accrues Papa and the later, especially if one tries to prevent and make amends may accrue Punya. So in this sense one can say, one has Freewill or Choice, but this not entirely the concept of Freewill we think of, because these action choices still produce the same result, a person is killed.

The above scenario is what Bhagawan attributes to as Fate. And as long as one identifies with one’s mind body complex, either Papa or Punya will accrue and the cycle will continue.

However, if one identifies with Atman, such an event, if it were to occur, will accrue no Karma.

Of course, folks who become Jnanis and are well advanced spiritually, would not have any Karma Phalas left in their birth, where they kill a friend!

I think the Karana Sareeram, of a human being negotiated through all this, as it is the ‘seed’ of each one of us, inside us.

Hope I have not displayed my ignorance too much. Thank you.

Thank you for the detail informative reply.
Will contemplate on it.

 

[Iyest]

If the "Body-am-I" idea is given up, and one surrenders oneself unconditionally to the mercy of the Higher Power, then responsibility for the body's maintenance is automatically thrown on the Higher Power and He carries on from there. You should not think, "I have the duty of taking care of the body". You have entrusted yourself to him; leave everything including the body to him. He manages everything supremely well. His ways are mysterious but in the end the job is done.

- Aham Sphurana, page 131

 

[KRS]

O Arunachala, Self (the consciousness, ‘I am’) itself is the Reality. Reveal this to me Yourself.

(v. 43 Arunachala Aksharamanamalai)

 

[Iyest]

Q: Is it really true that I am not this body?

B: Yes.

Q: If so, when some damage is suffered by the body, why do I feel pain?

B: Does the body cry out, saying, “I am feeling pain!?” You associate yourself with the body and speak of it as your “ I”. The body is only in the mind. All pain suffered by the body is as imaginary as the body itself. The body cannot know anything. It is insentient flesh and bone. Notions of pain spring from our own imagination only. Thus, in deep slumber, the mind being inactive, there is no pain.

- Aham Sphurana, page 299

 

[Iyest]

You say it is the same world you saw yesterday that you are seeing today. How do you know that? Through memory. Memories are also illusory. They create a deceptive fabric of intellectual continuity where in fact none exists. What actually exists is only Absolute Beingness or Self. Even in dreams you have memories, go to familiar places etc. How is this made possible? Jagrat or swapna, the same mind draws the poisonous veil of objectification or differentiation over the pure Self, hiding it. This veil is called the screen of avidyamaya. Instead of asking who cast this veil, it is more useful to ask who sees the veil. Then you will see there was never any veil. This is called Self Realization. The desire to do sadhana to attain it, is ipso facto, meaningless and self defeating - because this desire presupposes the existence of someone apart from the Self who is doing Sadhana to reach the Self.

 

[KRS]

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri KRS,

I think others can be treated as self only if we are not treated as others. The philosophy that is espoused here is noble of the highest order but is only used by hypocrites and naive in the Kali Yuga. Sir I am not doubting your intentions but I am just making a generalization. I think we would be doing a a really noble service to the common man if we wake him up to the crude pragmatism and realities of the modern times and how to cope up with them. High philosophies to the extent it serves that purpose may be used and no more.

I do not want to intrude into this space but this is a spontaneous reaction on reading the well meaning thoughts with little practical utility.

I would like to make a suggestion. If the philosophy can be shown to apply to practical living or ways to apply it would be
truly invaluable.

Good luck Sir.

 

[KRS]

Dear Shri KRS,

I think others can be treated as self only if we are not treated as others. The philosophy that is espoused here is noble of the highest order but is only used by hypocrites and naive in the Kali Yuga. Sir I am not doubting your intentions but I am just making a generalization. I think we would be doing a a really noble service to the common man if we wake him up to the crude pragmatism and realities of the modern times and how to cope up with them. High philosophies to the extent it serves that purpose may be used and no more.

I do not want to intrude into this space but this is a spontaneous reaction on reading the well meaning thoughts with little practical utility.

I would like to make a suggestion. If the philosophy can be shown to apply to practical living or ways to apply it would be
truly invaluable.

Good luck Sir.

Dear Sri Sravna Sir,

I think I understand your point. However, these are the words from a Janani. As such, these are for fortifying one’s necessarily lonely and very personal spiritual quest.

All religions teach how to help humanity. Ours is no exception. That is why we have Karma Kandas in our Scriptures and Dharma Sastras.

All these postings from the Bhagawan belong to Jnana Kanda teachings. So, in pursuit of that only true Jnanam, we practice various Sadhanas to purify our mind and ultimately with the goal to fold that mind in to our heart. This is not an easy quest. So, it is very useful, in my opinion to constantly and repeatedly hear what the Mahans said about this quest.

This is why I post here, as it helps me also to ponder on the words. My way of being help to others is to think that such words may help a few others on this quest also.

Sorry that they do not help you. Your path may be different. Hope this explains.

 

[renuka]

View attachment 15612

Dear Shri KRS,

I think others can be treated as self only if we are not treated as others. The philosophy that is espoused here is noble of the highest order but is only used by hypocrites and naive in the Kali Yuga. Sir I am not doubting your intentions but I am just making a generalization. I think we would be doing a a really noble service to the common man if we wake him up to the crude pragmatism and realities of the modern times and how to cope up with them. High philosophies to the extent it serves that purpose may be used and no more.

I do not want to intrude into this space but this is a spontaneous reaction on reading the well meaning thoughts with little practical utility.

I would like to make a suggestion. If the philosophy can be shown to apply to practical living or ways to apply it would be
truly invaluable.

Good luck Sir.

Dear Sravna,

I guess Bhagavan is talking about point blank reality.
The fact is there are No others for everything is but a projection of the same ONE.

But at one glance we might not be able to actually practice it in day to day life.

So how do we understand that there are " no others"?

Well..here words of Jesus( pbuh) would help.
" In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you"

In other words place yourself in the shoes of others and eventually this will become our second nature and by constantly contemplating on this we eventually experience that there are no others as Bhagawan Ramana said.

Sravna, these days I am findinh out from personal experience that words of all masters that walked this earth all are pieces of the same puzzle which when put together gives us the picture of reality.

 

[renuka]

Sravna...let me explain a little more of how the sayings of Jesus ( pbuh) who help lead to the words of Bhagawan Ramana.

In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you"

Since the above words would always want us to place ourselves in the shoes of " others", it is always an introspection..that is just say I get angry with someone and want to scold him..but I stop to think as " how would I feel if someone scolds me?"

Then for a moment or two my anger would not manifest and I would actually try to look at the root cause of the problem.

If there is a problem then I would solve it and if the other person needs to be aware of the problem, I would explain it to him in words that are kind yet solving the problem with no scope for untruth.

Over time when we keep introspecting before we react, we would indirectly be contemplating on balance within...becos by default we are all programmed for balance.
When we hit a constant balance that handles everything with equal mindedness we realize we have been seeing ourselves in others.

So there are no others.
At the same time there is no ourselves either.
It was all the while the same One projected as many.

I hope my explanation helps.

 

[renuka]

Sravna,
Let see how words of wisdom add up...I am linking all..




The truly learned, with the eyes of divine knowledge, see with equal vision a Brahmin, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater( Bhagavad Gita)

Because...

To God belong the East and the West; wherever you turn, there is the face of God.
Quran [2:115]

Therefore...

" In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you"
The Bible

For..There are no others( Ramana Maharishi)

 

[Iyest]

Dear Sravna,

I guess Bhagavan is talking about point blank reality.

He is.

But at one glance we might not be able to actually practice it in day to day life.

Even after repeated readings for decades we struggle to make a start.

A brief ‘practical’ passage follows.

 

[Iyest]

Passionate devotion towards the Higher Ideal must be cultivated in children at a young age, well before their sense of a personal self is able to assert itself; for the deadliest danger is when the person finds a means of financial independence; he imagines he is “a self sufficient entity.” One can make the observation that this pride of being able to support oneself materially or financially is a great hindrance to Realisation in the case of many people. Realisation needs you to surrender yourself totally and unconditionally. That will happen only if the feeling, “I am helpless by myself; I cannot do anything; the only way out for me is to throw myself at the mercy of the Guru [or Randomness or Self or God or Higher Power whether called by one of these names or any other] and keep quiet” has completely enveloped the mind. If you think, “I can support myself by earning a living for myself in this world” it leads in the exact opposite direction to Realisation - i.e., away from.

-Aham Sphurana, page 534

 

[Iyest]

Sravna,
Let see how words of wisdom add up...I am linking all..




The truly learned, with the eyes of divine knowledge, see with equal vision a Brahmin, a cow, an elephant, a dog, and a dog-eater( Bhagavad Gita)

Because...

To God belong the East and the West; wherever you turn, there is the face of God.
Quran [2:115]

Therefore...

" In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you"
The Bible

For..There are no others( Ramana Maharishi)

Krishnamurti:

“You are the world, and the world is you”.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri KRS and Renuka

I do understand the importance of the teachings but let me be clear about that. There is not enough balance in what is taught. But I am not blaming you for that. You are doing your work. But let us all understand that people should be receptive to them and find them applicable. When we say such high words as there are no others can we expect the common man to understand them and live by them. My real test of effectiveness of teaching is the understanding of it and living of it by the common man. Ivory tower teaching is not going to take us far. And more importantly do we ourselves have the real conviction in what we teach and live by them.

I am just placing some points to ponder. Let our work for the upliftment of mind of others not be just a futile or an academic exercise.

 

[renuka]

Dear Shri KRS and Renuka

I do understand the importance of the teachings but let me be clear about that. There is not enough balance in what is taught. But I am not blaming you for that. You are doing your work. But let us all understand that people should be receptive to them and find them applicable. When we say such high words as there are no others can we expect the common man to understand them and live by them. My real test of effectiveness of teaching is the understanding of it and living of it by the common man. Ivory tower teaching is not going to take us far. And more importantly do we ourselves have the real conviction in what we teach and live by them.

I am just placing some points to ponder. Let our work for the upliftment of mind of others not be just a futile or an academic exercise.

I do fully agree with you Sravna.
I have noticed in many spiritual groups when higher ideals are discussed honestly most of us might need a detailed explanation.

So I do agree with what you wrote.
Initially when I read the answer that there are No Others..I myself thought " how practical is this?"

It didnt give me answers right away though after some contemplation I linked verses from most religious texts to form an understanding.

So I do agree with you.
At the same time we do have to ask ourselves, how many of us treat others as vasudhaiva kutumbakam as in there are no others and how many of us get treated in the same manner as others?
Honestly I guess we might write well here but practiclly we might not practicing what we preach at the same time whatever we write should have an explanation.

Those who surrender to a Guru might have a guru shishya connection which allows inner engineering to take place.

But for the rest of us , we might need some guidance as you have suggested.

 

[renuka]

Krishnamurti:

“You are the world, and the world is you”.

And God is Lord of the worlds.

 

[renuka]

Passionate devotion towards the Higher Ideal must be cultivated in children at a young age, well before their sense of a personal self is able to assert itself; for the deadliest danger is when the person finds a means of financial independence; he imagines he is “a self sufficient entity.” One can make the observation that this pride of being able to support oneself materially or financially is a great hindrance to Realisation in the case of many people. Realisation needs you to surrender yourself totally and unconditionally. That will happen only if the feeling, “I am helpless by myself; I cannot do anything; the only way out for me is to throw myself at the mercy of the Guru [or Randomness or Self or God or Higher Power whether called by one of these names or any other] and keep quiet” has completely enveloped the mind. If you think, “I can support myself by earning a living for myself in this world” it leads in the exact opposite direction to Realisation - i.e., away from.

-Aham Sphurana, page 534

Golden words..but when kids become teenagers everything changes too..not all will fully echo childhood instilled values.

 

[Iyest]

Golden words..but when kids become teenagers everything changes too..not all will fully echo childhood instilled

They may change as teenagers. But how many parents want Realisation for their children to begin with. Are they even serious about it themselves? For most, ‘practical’ means cultivation of skills to pursue sensory pleasures in life. IMHO.

 

[renuka]

They may change as teenagers. But how many parents want Realisation for their children to begin with. Are they even serious about it themselves? For most, ‘practical’ means cultivation of skills to pursue sensory pleasures in life. IMHO.

Some parents do really want children to head towards realization but not children seek that.

I guess individual karma too counts.

On my part I tell my son to seek the middle path because eventually its balance that leads us to the straight path.

He seems to understand it but in more of a Buddhist way without a personal God but for me I pursue the middle path with the concept of God.