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Nara, Mohammadali Jinnah started his campaign for dividing the country with his statement that Muslims are a nation and they are different from the Hindus in India. I am glad you do not have any such notions. Thanks.
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Brahmins and Jews
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Nara, Mohammadali Jinnah started his campaign for dividing the country with his statement that Muslims are a nation and they are different from the Hindus in India. I am glad you do not have any such notions. Thanks.
How about the post where Kalabhairava uses the word "tamil nation" in this thread?
The supremacist ideology is all over the dharmashastras, all over the society, all over the inherent mindset as displayed by certain forum members on this very site with fanciful beliefs and fantastic claims about themselves.கால பைரவன்;206274 said:
Caste by itself is not discrimination, It is simply a unit of occupation where people can move from one occupation to another. The rigvedic society was based on caste, not varna. Remember the verse "I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn". Who prevented anyone from moving into any occupation (caste)?
Time and again repeated this- caste is a much older social organization unit than varna system; hence, it is natural to find it in ancient societies. Sangam literature mentions caste, but does not prohibit change of caste (occupation).
No sangam literature prescribes the அரசர் to inflict torture on the வேளாளர் or asks the அந்தணர் to snatch wealth from the வேளாளர் or proclaim that a வேளாளர் was a bonded slave. Culture down south was simply different being made up of peasant-militias. South was dasa culture. South was not part of aryavarta. So yes, in that sense, the pancha-dravidas were a different nation unto themselves. These were predominantly ASI not ANI.
But this fluid system changed. It was replaced by the dharmashastra type of rigid structure wherein groups of people were given a birth-assigned occupation, where each tried to suppress the other, and push themselves higher on the hierarchical varna pedestal. Fluid caste structure was replaced by discrimination called brahmanism.
These are facts, no one is trying to poison anyone by saying so. If this is how it was, then well, accept it. No need to quote pingala niganthu written after after 7th century AD after brahmanism took root in south to prove varna system and casteism existed in south.
AS for varna-vyavastha, as with any other social organization strategy sure it was just competition. Nothing wrong about it. But to justify that such a system must remain today is plain silly. When the brahmin (hindutva) lobby portrays secularism as an enemy of "hindutva" (read brahmanism), we know where India is heeded for -- just like the battle between fundamentalists versus the moderates in islamic countries.
Yes, in today's world there is corruption, casteism-toxin has poisoned the system, there are several other warts and all, but secularism and democracy do not impose religion-sanctioned slavery on anyone's head. Today many people like me (former shudras) make a life based on secular education, secular vocations, secular lifestyles, where democracy ensures we have basic dignity of life.
Folks like me have no reason to accept intellectual justification for brahmanism or varna-system doled out as divine words from divine swamis. We cannot be fooled anymore, surely not with texts composed after 7th century AD.
Those who call themselves brahmins today have only 2 choices --
(1) join the fundamentalist group; eulogize, justify varna just like leaders of the sangh parivar; create a fundamentalist society based on religion; where religion decides nationality, where women are sent back to the itihasa age; or
(2) join secularism; stop justifying varna, brahmanism, caste; forget past, create society afresh, remove reservations in academic institutions after ensuring reservations do not exist in religion anymore, such that anyone can train to study the vedas and the agamas; create a strong society based on brotherhood, tolerance towards other religions, unity against crime and corruption, where love of nation alone is the criteria for being a nationalist.
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No worries Renu. This is a locker room chatter, just that both males and females are present here.
Some males are rather typical, with "my intelligence is bigger than yours", (if they cud , probably they'd compare other things too
). Then you have "my genes are satvik or influenced by satvik lifestyle" (and that includes misplaced ego stemming from amnesia about uncomfortable stuff such as sacrificing animals in yagnas in pre-shankara days). Not to mention "my religion is beautiful" (the selective amnesia makes one look at one side only, completely ignoring the rest; as if any religion in the world ever remained peaceful, everyone who got a chance to exterminate other faith systems did so).
Oh well, competition is the very basis of survival. If there is an equation to decide survival of the fittest, it is obviously being written every nanosecond all over the universe.
K
kkumar29
Guest
Palindrome,
I normally don't participate in discussions of this nature. Your post #128 is the most sensible post I have seen. I have no quarrels/arguments with the points you have stated. I follow exactly everything you have mentioned in the last paragraph. However I do get annoyed when you say you are against me because I am a smartha. I am one because I was born into a family of smarthas and that's all I know about my heritage.
I wish all your posts were like the one I cited, factual without any hatred towards any group. I hope you take this post of mine in the right spirit.
K. Kumar
I normally don't participate in discussions of this nature. Your post #128 is the most sensible post I have seen. I have no quarrels/arguments with the points you have stated. I follow exactly everything you have mentioned in the last paragraph. However I do get annoyed when you say you are against me because I am a smartha. I am one because I was born into a family of smarthas and that's all I know about my heritage.
I wish all your posts were like the one I cited, factual without any hatred towards any group. I hope you take this post of mine in the right spirit.
K. Kumar
It is true i have some queasy feeling against smartism. I do not think dharmashastras mired in varna-vyavastha help anyone in today's world.
Rest assured i have nothing against any individual. Nara sir has said he hates certain individuals (obviously for the hypocrisy). I thot about it a lot yesterday. Can i hate individuals? Sorry sir, the best of individuals have ideas that prevent them from opening their heart. I'd blame it on ideas put into their head by religious ideology. Its not the individual's fault really. Its what the individual has been conditioned into. Many times its also the collective society.
Maybe i think this way bcoz my exposure is different. Yes i have seen corruption, greasing palms / bribery, but no i have not personally faced discrimination based on caste so far. I do not have the kind of exposure Nara sir has to conversations and meet-ups with weekenders and their thoughts. In fact this forum is the only source of insight into several complexities of the mind. My family does not offer this level of insight.
This particular statement though has hit me right on the head: "However I do get annoyed when you say you are against me because I am a smartha. I am one because I was born into a family of smarthas and that's all I know about my heritage."
Am thinking "how can i be against any individual". Incidentally, some of my cousins are smartas. Am i against them? How can i be? Am only against the ideology of smartism wrt varna ideology. Afaik the younger generation also does not follow any such ideology. Sir please, i cannot dislike you as a person or your heritage, I wish you'd continue whatever rituals which you can pertaining to your family traditions, but never use them to create a mental separation between you and others...my only wish being that you like / tolerate / accept me for what i am, not for birth, caste, color, looks, money, etc (or lack of any of these things).
Thank you for writing in sir. Your post has deeply moved me and i need time to think about it much more. God Bless.
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K
kkumar29
Guest
Hi Palindrome,
Thank you for taking my post in the positive way. I have been following your posts from the time I joined this forum in 2010. You stuck me as a person who is willing to correct your own errors if pointed out. In one of the posts I had mentioned about Bharathiyar's "புதுமை பெண்". I had you, Ms. Renuka and Amala in mind when I penned that post. Sometimes I think your posts tend to go on the abrasive side and I think that's what people remember, rather than the good points you were making in your posts. I would attribute that to your being young and you will mellow out as you gain more experience in the world. Please take this post as a friendly suggestion from a fellow forum member rather than advice.
By the way I do not agree with all your conclusions, but I do agree with some. Just make sure you don't fall into the same trap that you are accusing others of. That's all I wanted to point out in my earlier post.
Cheers,
K. Kumar
Thank you for taking my post in the positive way. I have been following your posts from the time I joined this forum in 2010. You stuck me as a person who is willing to correct your own errors if pointed out. In one of the posts I had mentioned about Bharathiyar's "புதுமை பெண்". I had you, Ms. Renuka and Amala in mind when I penned that post. Sometimes I think your posts tend to go on the abrasive side and I think that's what people remember, rather than the good points you were making in your posts. I would attribute that to your being young and you will mellow out as you gain more experience in the world. Please take this post as a friendly suggestion from a fellow forum member rather than advice.
By the way I do not agree with all your conclusions, but I do agree with some. Just make sure you don't fall into the same trap that you are accusing others of. That's all I wanted to point out in my earlier post.
Cheers,
K. Kumar
N
Nara
Guest
Oh boy, when did I say that? For the record let me state I have no hatred against anyone. My feelings about Brahminism is well known.
best ....
Palindrome said:
It is quite an irony that in the same post where advice was presented to the brahmins liberally on forgetting the past, the precursor of the post is a discussion on history, which, IMO, does not reflect the truth.
Most brahmins have little interest in past; they were not overly concerned with history either. However what we observe is that this very same history, that the brahmins are being asked to forget, is routinely used to abuse the brahmins, bash the brahmins, justify any and all discrimination that is perpetrated against them today. That is the crux of the issue. Those who want to delude themselves about the glorious history of tamils or the people of South India are free to do so. But it is with this very same twisted version of history, that the anti-brahmin/anti-brahminists seek to conflate casteism and brahmanism to abuse brahmins and to deny that casteism was and is being practiced by the non-brahmins. The past, as one can readily see is thus a handy tool for the anti-brahmins/anti-brahminists. That is part of the reason why in this forum there is hardly any serious discussion on current affairs. People are not even allowed to as much make a mention about communal discrimination that is happening today without a bunch of anti-brahminists accusing them of "bitching". Brahmins have no need to justify either varna or caste system. It is clear to many of us that they are not responsible for it. Caste system or casteism is not the creation of brahmins.
The varna system is not in vogue. The brahmins have no need to justify it. Such strawman arguments will not help anyone. On the other hand, this non-existent system is the one that comes so handy for the anti-brahmnists to pound on brahmins in this forum and elsewhere.Palindrome said:
Palindrome said:
Hindutva lobby is not brahmin lobby. Hindutva is not brahmanism. Brahmanism is not casteism. Just by throwing all sorts of terms, the member cannot expect to fool anyone.
The rest of the post is mostly political; will post a reply separately.
Palindrome said:
This part of the post tries to create an illusion that there is hindutva on one hand and secularism on the other hand. This post is far from the truth and does not reflect the reality.
There is hindutva, there is minoriyism, there is communalism, there is casteism - all in India. There is hardly any secularism! Anyone who supports communal discrimination is an opponent of secularism.
Of course, I wonder whether a deeper discussion is even possible because we will back to discussing semantics on what this word secularism means!
Thank you sir.
There were times i fell into the trap, got myself out. Surely there will be times, in future, when i may fall again. If and when i do, wud be glad if you could sound me out.
Many thanks again sir.
Am sorry sir, i misunderstood. My apologies..
கால பைரவன்;206461 said:
I think I have already said whatever I had to. So no point going back into the origins of varna-system and tracing the roots of discrimination, slavery codified by religion, and so on.கால பைரவன்;206462 said:
A Jain Niganthu composed after 7th century AD, long after varna had already penetrated into south with the advent of Shatavahanas, is no evidence to claim casteism was practiced in sangam period. Have spoke enuf about Brahmanism (aka casteism). It is what it is. Period.
Your claim that anti-brahmanists are ardent casteists is nothing but your own opinion. Its an other matter that caste is a political tool today and hence utilized by certain folks to their benefit. The youth however are moving on.
As for hindutva and secularism, enough has been written about it. Two books may help (1) Hindutva and Dalits: perspectives for understanding communal praxis (2) Secularism's Last Sigh?: Hindutva and the (Mis) Rule of Law.
If you have any specific points on hindutva and secularism, feel free to list them. All in one post please.
Palindrome said:
Just because something was repeated many times, it does not become the truth.
One needs to harbor plenty of hatred against brahmins to continue conflating brahmanism and casteism. It is a pity that such hatemongering against brahmins is allowed in this forum.
Palindrome said:
A majority of these folks, if not all, who use casteism as a political tool are anti-brahmins/anti-brahminists and hence my point that the anti-brahmanists are ardent casteists is not merely an opinion, but a fact.
Palindrome said:
The very idea of trying to create dichotomous argument - hindutva vs secularism is misleading. Therefore I feel no need to discuss them together.
On secularism, if a discussion arises, I will certainly put forth my points!
Cannot pity such such opinions....anyways, they are yours, let them be.கால பைரவன்;206468 said:
So? Of course caste is a political tool today. It was a political tool since 2000 years ever since varna vyavastha created a rat-race hierarchy based on violence. Those who created laws benefiting themselves were removed from the pedestal in british period. Under democracy and secularism, there is not much religious ideologies can achieve. That too is a fact.
You say misleading, yet do not want to discuss. Well....
I am only pointing out, not to you, but to the general readers, the hypocrisy of the anti-Brahmins/ anti-brahminists who feel compelled to justify casteism and use it as a tool when it benefits them.
Lets see what was said in this post:
and what was said in post #128...
palindrome said:
It should be clear to anyone now who (read anti-brahmins/ anti-brahminists) needs the past to justify casteism today. Just a point of fact to show what the anti-Brahmins/anti-brahminists actually do in contrast against the liberal advice they dole out to Brahmins.
Palindrome said:
I said there is no need to discuss them together. I stand by it. The problem is not secularism vs hindutva but secularism vs communalism and in a discussion about secularism or communalism in India, I will contribute my two cents.
Who else but you can pick out of context, conjure up and bring out such twisted logic.கால பைரவன்;206484 said:
No one is justifying casteism today. India cannot jump from casteism to a completely non-communal framework. First it has to bring up former unprivileged people; a large section of whom happen to be former low castes. If policies are designed to help them come up based on caste, such as reservations, so be it.
India cannot be truly secular-in-practice until religion at the grassroot aids change. Which is why I said any body interested should be allowed to train as a priest, to study the vedas and agamas; such that there is no such thing as caste-by-birth in practice. This of course, applies to the collective group branded under the term "hindus".
It does not matter that there are not many takers given the lifestyle today. Since the past decade, however, changes are happening; such as females and former non-brahmins training as priests, inter-marriages with former dalits, etc. Its only a matter of time before such things become commonplace. Until the society changes truly, we have to bear with the current governance model based on communalism.
Only after all walls break down (until the playing field becomes level), can a secular society be built. Until then, we have to bear with laws which change slowly with time. How silly to think Indian legality in many areas until recently depended on archaic ideas based on religious beliefs. Anyways, at least now, women can inherit. It will take time for the constitutional framework to change into truly secular. We are a democracy only since the past 60 years.
As for hindutva versus secularism, you can stand by what you want. If only you wud express your opinions on them first. Hindutva is not pluralism, it cannot be secularism; it is based on religion with a certain directed effort...the RSS constitutional framework as designed by Gowalkar and Upadhyay has its very foundation based on varna-vyavastha; albeit designed to somewhat suit modern times, yet based wholly on keeping varna and caste alive.
So what we see in India today is communalism of the hindutva type versus communalism based on removing inequalities of the past. The hindutva brand of communalism has no hope of converting into secularism. But communalism currently in practice, aided largely by modernism, is certainly breaking down barriers.
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Just like I predicted, a reasonable discussion is not possible without an agreement on semantics (i.e. what the term "secularism" entails).
"Our communalism is good. The communalism of others is bad" is something one hears all the time. Not at all surprising!
The reservation, in itself, by the way it is implemented, is simply caste and religious discrimination only. But the communalism that is practiced in India today is much more than reservations in jobs or higher education. Corruption, security, economy, political manipulations all are linked to this issue of communalism that is being touted as "good" communalism here.
IMO, people who support such communal discrimination are not fit to hold brief for secularism.
"Our communalism is good. The communalism of others is bad" is something one hears all the time. Not at all surprising!
The reservation, in itself, by the way it is implemented, is simply caste and religious discrimination only. But the communalism that is practiced in India today is much more than reservations in jobs or higher education. Corruption, security, economy, political manipulations all are linked to this issue of communalism that is being touted as "good" communalism here.
IMO, people who support such communal discrimination are not fit to hold brief for secularism.
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Nowhere did I say communalism of any form is "good". Just described the way India functions.கால பைரவன்;206496 said:
Laugh as much as you please Kalabhairava. Lets see how many takers for hindutva communalism over the years....
Btw, am not holding a "brief" for secularism. Just describing what it is, and why it hardly exists in today's governance in India....Anyways, lets see what the future generations choose, especially when inane divisions like caste are breaking down in functioning social life....
It is just an expression of vindication.
Not at all laughing (at you).
Removed it.
This has been quite a long day.
Do you really understand the impact of reservations? Did you know that 35 kids (all dalits/OBC) died in a Hospital in west Bengal recently? Millions of kids have been lost due to incompetent doctors. Millions of kids lost to “open manholes” by incompetent govt employees. Millions & countless more lost due to incompetent governance, poverty, mal-nutrition etc…
So what do you have to say to these mothers who have lost their kids due to the incompetence bred by reservations?
Oh wait, you will tell them – Yes, there will be collateral damage when you are waging a war against the Brahmins by imposing 90% to 100% reservations to teach them a lesson!!
If you want to uplift the dalits/OBC, there are many many affirmative actions one can take instead of passing an incompetent doctor,professional, employee due to reservations!!!
Did you know that Poulson (US Treasury Secretary) said, Bush made the only best decision by putting a Brilliant Guy like “Bernanke” incharge to manage the 2008 financial crisis ???. your reservation candidate would have collapsed the entire world economy & you would not be able to wage this war against Brahmins in the TB forum – LOL !!!
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So babies died bcoz of reservations? Oh well, i thot the case was like this: 35 babies die in five days in Kolkata hospital : East, News - India Today
Looks like still there is some case of :flypig:
Btw, I wud anyday prefer a doc who passed out of reservations rather than a doc who passed out of management quota. That ofcourse, only if i get no one from the merit category.
renuka
Well-known member
Dear Jaykay Ji,
I do not see your logic about the doctor's caste =negligence part.
I personally know about a few doctors out here who by birth caste are Dalits and are competent doctors and even head of departments.
I have worked before in India in some rural set up during my internship and saw how some rural health centers are run..if at all anyone died it is becos of lack of facilities and not becos of incompetence.
Even if the best of doctors is put in a place with no facilities surely patients will land in the morgue!
So I rather not play the blame game and blame caste for negligence.
Open manholes happen here too where I stay not becos of negligence employees but becos thieves steal manhole covers to be sold to scrap metal recycle factories but since the society is alert here when an open manhole is seen..the authorities are called right away to replace it.
Even some couple of years back water meter machines outside home used to be stolen cos its metal..so now all water meter machines outside the house are made of hard plastic to prevent theft.
Lack of facilities in a government hospital in most 3rd world countries is becos of CORRUPTION.
That you have to ask the politicians where the money went.
As I told you in another thread..that if caste =competence..I wonder why no one asks a pilot his caste before anyone boards the plane cos he has more lives in his hand at any one given time compared to a doctor.
So next time insists that your Pilot says "Hello Ladies and Gentlemen ..this is your Captain speaking..I am of this Jati/Varna/Kulam etc..so do not worry..you are in save hands..fly in my Vimanam without fear"
Please think logically...other humans too exists in other parts of the world where no Tamil Brahmin had set foot and life goes on as usual.
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renuka
Well-known member
Dear Jaykay Ji,
I have studied with people who got in medical college by reservation.
Many or shall I say all of them were from poor homes and they valued their studies.
They studied hard and never attended parties like the rest of us.
They were reserved and religious too mostly Christians.
They usually did well in exams and studied hard enough and never failed any exam.
You could see the determination in their eyes to try to improve themselves.
They never troubled anyone and were usually shy and very modest and totally non violent.
Good students who finally became good doctors.
So if you never had any 1st hand experience like what I had I guess you might not understand what I am saying.
I have studied with people who got in medical college by reservation.
Many or shall I say all of them were from poor homes and they valued their studies.
They studied hard and never attended parties like the rest of us.
They were reserved and religious too mostly Christians.
They usually did well in exams and studied hard enough and never failed any exam.
You could see the determination in their eyes to try to improve themselves.
They never troubled anyone and were usually shy and very modest and totally non violent.
Good students who finally became good doctors.
So if you never had any 1st hand experience like what I had I guess you might not understand what I am saying.
Hi Renuka,
Let me clarify. I am definitely NOT saying that caste = competence. All I am saying is it is critical to give importance to “merit” in all areas of life for any nation to progress.
Let the “meritorious” from Dalits/OBC become the leaders/doctors etc.. I don’t have a problem. Infact if you give reservations to any community, you will only breed incompetence, there is NO incentive to work hard & excel !
I am only pointing out, that by not focusing on merit, the biggest causalities are the Dalits/OBC which some people here are fighting for !!
Cheers,
Let me clarify. I am definitely NOT saying that caste = competence. All I am saying is it is critical to give importance to “merit” in all areas of life for any nation to progress.
Let the “meritorious” from Dalits/OBC become the leaders/doctors etc.. I don’t have a problem. Infact if you give reservations to any community, you will only breed incompetence, there is NO incentive to work hard & excel !
I am only pointing out, that by not focusing on merit, the biggest causalities are the Dalits/OBC which some people here are fighting for !!
Cheers,
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