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Brahmins and Jews

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Dear Palindrome,

I clicked Like for this post of yours but just one word was not to my liking.

Brahminical Pantheon.

May be Hindu Pantheon would be a better option..cos other wise this post of yours is going to "invite" trouble from some.

Dear Dr Renukaji,

I agree with your view

Our ex Tamil Nadu CM M.G.R once remarked that Adi Dravidas should be called as Adi Hindus...

For example the Pallars from Soutrhern T.N worshipped Devendran (God of Marutham)..

The Shakthi & Tantric cults can also be traced to the Adi dravidas..

One of the greatest saints among the 63 Nayanmar is Nandanar who is a Dalit from the Paraiyar community...

If you go to any Village you fill find the Ayyanar temple & Karuppanaswamy temple that did not have Brahmin pujaris...

The British divided & ruled the people...Hope we dot fall prey to such propaganda
 
Dear Palindrome,

I clicked Like for this post of yours but just one word was not to my liking.

Brahminical Pantheon.

May be Hindu Pantheon would be a better option..cos other wise this post of yours is going to "invite" trouble from some.

Smt. Renuka,

In my view (which may not be palatable to many, including yourself) the more appropriate word will be the Aryan Pantheon, because,despite all the efforts being put in by the "hindutva" lobby and their spokesmen, there are many evidences - probably from all over India - to show that the people who believed in the vedas and vedic sacrifice of animals etc., were not the original inhabitants of this sub-continent, but that these 'vedists' were immigrants who had certain advantages over the aadivaasis and they (the immigrants) made full use of these advantages to enslave most of the original inhabitants who refused to accept the immigrants' belief system and their sovereignty.We cannot say "vedic pantheon" because the present day hindu pantheon is radically different from the vedic pantheon.
 


Smt. Renuka,

In my view (which may not be palatable to many, including yourself) the more appropriate word will be the Aryan Pantheon, because,despite all the efforts being put in by the "hindutva" lobby and their spokesmen, there are many evidences - probably from all over India - to show that the people who believed in the vedas and vedic sacrifice of animals etc., were not the original inhabitants of this sub-continent, but that these 'vedists' were immigrants who had certain advantages over the aadivaasis and they (the immigrants) made full use of these advantages to enslave most of the original inhabitants who refused to accept the immigrants' belief system and their sovereignty.We cannot say "vedic pantheon" because the present day hindu pantheon is radically different from the vedic pantheon.

Dear Sangom ji,

No problems..your view also makes sense to a certain extent after all its Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadanti!LOL
 
Yeah!! it has to be called only "brahmanical" pantheon, carefully choosing the word brahmanical. They were not Hindu pantheon. The purpose is well understood. We can start another glorious war of words about brahmins, the atrocities they committed through millennia, brahminism as different from brahmins, castes, varna, supremacist brahmins etc etc., People here have a special gene in them which gets triggered on often to provoke others into a brawl. Great going indeed. All the best.

Dear Palindrome,

I clicked Like for this post of yours but just one word was not to my liking.

Brahminical Pantheon.

May be Hindu Pantheon would be a better option..cos other wise this post of yours is going to "invite" trouble from some.
Sorry it is brahmanical pantheon or as sangom sir says aryan pantheon (though i have my reservations about the use of the word 'aryan'). Its about deities which belonged to the brahmanical pantheon or were absorbed into the brahmanical pantheon versus those which resisted the same.

The word hindu is recent. The word sanatana dharma is also recent. I request those who use both these words to provide evidence from early scriptures with dating (or any form of historical evidence) since when they have been in use.
 
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SANAATANASYA DHARMA ITI SANAATAN DHARMAH


Meaning- Sanatan Dharma, as the name suggests owes its inception to none other than the eternal supreme soul- Brahm. Unlike other religions such as Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrians and Buddhism which all clearly show the name of their inceptors like Christ, Mohammed, Zarthustra and Buddha, Sanatan Dharma boasts its inception to the supreme soul Himself.


All the religions except Sanatan can be classified into two parts-


Pre-historic religions.
Historic Religions.
But Sanatan cannot be included in any of these two categories. It existed even before the birth of other religions and it exists even today. Sanatan shall exist in future also. History has witnessed the rise and fall of scores of religions and sects. But, Sanatan has withstood all kinds of upheavals and oppositions and continues to exist.


Regarding the future of Sanatan, we have to keep in mind that since it has no beginning hence it will have no end. So, it is beyond the reach of 'natural-law of change' which states that one which has born shall inevitably come to an end. There has never been an exception to this rule nor there shall be one. Even the divine embodiments of almighty God in physical incarnations had to see their end. Thus, even the physical embodiment of even the eternal God is not an exception to this rule.


Second meaning: Sanatan has no beginning and hence no end. It exists right from the moment of creation of universe to the time of Pralaya (the great deluge). It is Sanatan not because it owes its inception to the eternal God but because it is eternal in itself. It shall exist up to Pralaya and shall not be destroyed even after Pralaya when it will lie dormant but exist neverthless.With the beginning of new creation, Sanatan shall rise once again to protect mankind and help it prosper.


But all said and done one should not have a misconception that all the other religions are false. Every religion guides the human being to its ultimate goal. But these religions being historic and propounded by somebody inevitably will see their end, of course except Sanatan Dharma.
Sanatan Dharma

I have a feeling that the all knower will have their own opinion (the only one that counts).

Google is a good tool for the answers, of genuine queries, without belittling others (if that is the intent).
 
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SANAATANASYA DHARMA ITI SANAATAN DHARMAH
May i know from where this quote is taken? From which scripture / inscription....???

I have a feeling that the all knower will have their own opinion (the only one that counts).
That's true. Applies to everyone, including the hindutva folks. I changed after i read colonial period history. After i understood why and how interpolations were made. I can understand from the viewpoint of what i was formerly, and what i am now. All merely opinions truly but utilized by select few in the socio-political platform for certain purposes.
 
Google is a good tool for the answers, of genuine queries, without belittling others (if that is the intent).
Noted you added this to your post just now.

There is no need to make such comments. If you know from which scripture / inscription / source, the phrase on sanatana dharma is taken, just mention. That is all needed. If you did that, i'd be glad for the input.

Btw, abt your comment on "all-knower", it looks like andhon mein kana raja, amongst the blind (ignorant), the one-eyed person (with little knowledge) appears to be an "all-knower"... Anyways, resorting to such comments will not help really. Wish those inherently intolerant to any other view point other than their own wud either do some research or refrain from such comments.
 
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Renuka said:
May be Hindu Pantheon would be a better option..cos other wise this post of yours is going to "invite" trouble from some.

Dear Doc,

I wish you had provided a reply like Sangom if you disagreed with the post rather than giving a reason like that.

As you know, brahmins today are not dependent on the charity of others.
 
கால பைரவன்;206183 said:
As you know, brahmins today are not dependent on the charity of others.
I don't think they ever were. They did a job in a religious role, they got paid, am not sure why its called charity.
 
Sorry it is brahmanical pantheon or as sangom sir says aryan pantheon (though i have my reservations about the use of the word 'aryan'). Its about deities which belonged to the brahmanical pantheon or were absorbed into the brahmanical pantheon versus those which resisted the same.

The word hindu is recent. The word sanatana dharma is also recent. I request those who use both these words to provide evidence from early scriptures with dating (or any form of historical evidence) since when they have been in use.

A very interesting piece on Sanatan Dharma:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
Sanatana-Dharma: Its Real Meaning
By Stephen Knapp
When it comes to understanding the meaning of Sanatana-dharma, we have to be aware of its Sanskrit definition. The root of the word dharma comes from dhri, which means to uphold or maintain. The Sanskrit says dharayati iti dharmaha, which translates as dharma is that which upholds. However, not only what is supported is dharma, but that which does the supporting is also dharma, dhriyate iti dharmaha. So dharma consists of both the force that sustains as well as what is sustained. It can also be said that there is the path of dharma as well as its conclusion, the object of dharma, or what we are seeking, the goal of life. So dharma is the means as well as the goal.
Dharma is also said to be the force which maintains the universe. Where there is dharma there is harmony and balance individually, socially, and inter-galactically. So the path of dharma brings about the harmony and contentment that is also another aspect of what we are seeking. In this way, we want harmony inwardly, in our own consciousness, but we also cannot have individual peace unless there is harmony or cooperation socially, amongst the masses. So where there is no dharma, there is disharmony and a state of being that is out of balance. And socially it means that without dharma, there is a lack of cooperation, along with escalating quarrel and fighting. This often manifests as a lack of distribution of resources, whereas some parts of the world may experience abundance of water, food or fuel, yet other parts are starving. Or by dishonest manipulation of supply and demand some necessities become priced so high that they are out of reach for the poor. When we act against the law of dharma, we disrupt the very harmony and cooperation that we want. In other words, we create a life for ourselves in which there is stress, confusion, discontent, and frustration. And when we feel that way, that becomes our contribution to the general social condition. It is the exact opposite of what we wish to attain. Thus, to live a life outside of dharma means to work against ourselves.
Furthermore, if we live on the basis of lust and greed, to accumulate possessions, money, and sensual pleasure by the demands of the mind and senses, it will become most difficult to follow the path of dharma. Of course, when this is the case, we often see that such people become increasingly discontent and out of balance, enamored by the illusory happiness in material existence. Doing what should not be done is called vidharma, which is a type of adharma or nondharmic activity. The conclusion, therefore, is that if we want happiness and peace we must learn how to live according to the path of dharma.
The practice of dharma should be done not out of compulsion but out of love due to the perception of the Supreme in all living beings. With this motivation, dharma can assist in preventing injury to others and treating each other respectfully. Dharma also means righteous conduct. This includes following social laws and proper moral activity and behavior. It encourages truthfulness of thought, word and deed. The point of which is to reach the goal of dharma.
Dharma also means truth. So we follow the path of dharma to free ourselves from illusion and reach the ultimate Truth, which is the topmost reality, the spiritual strata. The Absolute Truth means the final philosophical goal and end of all knowledge, or Vedanta, which is God, the Supreme Being. So when we want to attain liberation from material existence, after realizing the futility of its temporary nature, and wish to reach God, then it becomes much easier to follow the path of dharma and overcome the temptations of the temporary material world. Then we can let go of the illusory objects that are, in fact, hurdles on the path to Truth and God, and happiness in general.
The more we are attracted to the material existence and in accumulating the illusory objects to satisfy our mind and senses, in essence, the more hurdles we are bringing into our life. And we must overcome these obstructions at some point to reach the Absolute Truth. Therefore, life lived according to the law of dharma means the freer we become from false obstacles, from stress, from false hangups and mood swings, and inner conflicts. Thus, the freer we are to experience our real selves as spiritual beings. And the more society chooses to follow the path of dharma, the more easily we can attain an existence of cooperation and harmony instead of one of wars, conflict, terror and killing. So whatever we do, even if it is doing business, making money, politics, etc., it should be done on the basis of dharma. Then things will progress in the proper way. Following dharma will bring both material well-being as well as final liberation from material existence. Thus, one can attain all that this world can offer through the path of dharma.
On a national, ethnic, or racial level, dharma is an instrument of unity, not divisiveness. That which helps unite everyone and develop love and universal brotherhood is dharma. That which causes discord or disharmony or provokes hatred is adharma. That which works against or tries to destroy dharma is adharma. With this understanding we can perceive that certain religions that exist on this planet that encourage divisiveness between those that are “saved” and those that are supposedly going to hell, or which primarily focus on differences between their sect and others, are actually adharmic. Those religions that do not teach that we are all spiritual beings, all children of the same God, all equal in the eyes of God, are adharmic. They may merely be limited in their depth of knowledge and awareness, but until they adopt the dharmic principles they will continue to produce disagreements, restlessness, harsh attitudes and even hatred amongst people in the name of religion. The reason is that they are absent of real transcendental knowledge and deep spiritual insights. Since such religions lack dharma, they will not be able to deliver one to dharma, or to the Absolute Truth. Thus, lack of peace and harmony amongst various religions will be commonplace until this is remedied. In this way, the path of dharma is more than a religion or belief system. It is the means to directly perceive and live according to that higher reality and spiritual unity between us all.
So we can see that the path of dharma is more of a way of life. Some people may say that Vedic dharma, or Hinduism, is another religion. Yet, if we understand this principle of dharma, we can see that it is not merely another religion or “ism”. It is a way of life that is lived with every moment and every breath. It is a matter of raising our consciousness to the highest level possible. It is a matter of understanding and living according to the Universal Spiritual principles that apply to everyone. Thus, we reach our fullest potential, which in the end is on the spiritual platform.
For example, when one comes to the level of dharma, then all of his or her actions are in accordance with the dharma, the path of harmony and balance, in tune with the Divine. For example, in Vedic culture we can find the artful expression of dance. This is just one of many art forms in the Vedic tradition. But on the path of dharma it is an expression of one’s emotional outlet toward God, Ishwara or Krishna. An emotional outlet in this manner means you express yourself to God, you release your love for God, and your thoughts and consciousness become more absorbed in God. So this is also like yoga, a form of dedicated meditation. In this way, the attitude within the dance is unique. It is not merely an emotional release for satisfying one’s own mind, but it is an expression of longing toward becoming united with God. That is yoga. It is dharma. So in this sense, dharma means the freedom to naturally express our inner proclivity, which is to get closer to the Absolute Truth, and worship this Truth, this Ishvara or God.
Therefore, on the path of dharma the dances, the movements, the costumes and jewelry, are all used to either relate the pastimes of God or to enhance our attachment to God. So these are all expressions of dharma, our eternal nature to love God and be loved by God. Thus, dharma is also protected by continuing the tradition. For this reason there needs to be a class of men who are dedicated to protect the dharma. It is only one who has the dharma that can protect it.
Now when we add the word Sanatana to dharma, it expands the meaning and purpose. Sanatana means eternal. So Sanatana-dharma can mean the ancient path that has existed from time immemorial. It is the eternal path which has been given to humanity and comes from beyond the material dimension. Thus, Sanatana-dharma is the inter-dimensional path of progress for all living beings.
It can also be said to be the unceasing and imperishable path of the soul. Sanatana-dharma also means the eternal path and our eternal nature. Dharma means the ultimate nature of the living being, the spirit soul. And the nature or dharma of the soul is to love and be loved, to serve its most lovable object and to receive love. Just like the dharma or nature of sugar is to be sweet, we know that if it is not sweet or if it is salty, then it is not sugar. The dharma of fire is to give light and heat. If it does not do that, then it cannot be fire. So the Sanatana-dharma or eternal nature of the soul is that it is a spiritual being that is naturally connected to God and feels the greatest joy in its constitutional position as a servant of God. The soul needs to love. It cannot do without it. And our nature as human beings reflects the nature of the soul because we are always looking for love. Although when such love is interpreted through the mind and senses, it is often accepted as the satisfaction of the mind and body. This only brings temporary happiness because it is merely a reflection of what we really want and need. So for the soul, the most lovable object is the Lord and the most pleasing things are spiritual relations and exchanges. This is what will give the epitome of bliss that we long for in loving relationships.
So, Sanatana-dharma means both the ultimate spiritual truth and the means to attain it. And that truth is the divine knowledge of the soul. Thus, if there is to be any eternality in our relationships, or any spiritual connection with anything we do, it has to be based on that divine knowledge of the soul, the ultimate reality. That is the path of Sanatana-dharma, to realize our spiritual identity and then know how to act accordingly.
Therefore, the purpose of life is to follow the path of dharma which will bring us to the conclusion of recognizing that everything is the energy of God, Brahman. Following this further, the path of dharma will bring us into union with God. And the highest union is through love and devotion, or bhakti. Thus, bhakti-yoga, the process of loving devotion to the Lord, is the epitome of following Sanatana-dharma. Making this the goal of our life means that we are living a life of dharma. And the ultimate goal of dharma is to reach God.
Sanatana-dharma is also a matter of understanding. It is an awareness that every particle of this universe is an expansion of God’s energies. That it is all an exhibition of the potencies of the Para-Brahman, the Absolute Existence. Dharma is the path to seeing how God is everywhere. Thus, dharma is not only the path to God but is also in God. A truly liberated person does not worry about liberation, or in going home back to God in the spiritual world. He is already aware that he is in God’s energy, whether it is the material or spiritual energy. It is all an exhibition of God’s potencies wherever he goes. Thus, the dharmin, or Dharmist, the follower of dharma who sees God everywhere, is already home. Liberation from material existence will follow such a person like a servant.
If we understand this properly, we can see that Sanatana-dharma is the basis of universal truth. It can be applied to anyone at anytime and anywhere in the universe. Thus, many religions can and should include Sanatana-dharma within their approach and outlook. It does not matter in which religion you may be affiliated, you can still benefit and grow within the fold of Sanatana-dharma to reach a higher awareness and perception of your true potential and genuine spiritual identity. In this way, the whole world could reach a new stage in its social and spiritual development, as well as in harmony and cooperation.
Sanatana-Dharma


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Noted you added this to your post just now.

There is no need to make such comments. If you know from which scripture / inscription / source, the phrase on sanatana dharma is taken, just mention. That is all needed. If you did that, i'd be glad for the input.

Btw, abt your comment on "all-knower", it looks like andhon mein kana raja, amongst the blind (ignorant), the one-eyed person (with little knowledge) appears to be an "all-knower"... Anyways, resorting to such comments will not help really. Wish those inherently intolerant to any other view point other than their own wud either do some research or refrain from such comments.

As usual of you, that you nominated yourself as the King (Queen). That is the quality that endears you so much on this site.
 
Thankyou Vgane.

Like Stephen Knapp, i too cud put forth a lot of explanation, use high sounding words about any term, be it sanatana dharma or hinduism.

However, am not keen to know the opinions of stephen knapp and various swamijis who use the term(s).

Am more keen to know from which historical source is this phrase taken: SANAATANASYA DHARMA ITI SANAATAN DHARMAH (so far it seems to me some swamiji decided to write some lines in sanskrit to pass off his opinions about sanatana dharma and what it is -- in other words, what it should be according to him).

As you are aware, this is a point of interest to academic people as well: Sanatana Dharma (Check out the reply given: Sanatana Dharma) AS you can note the words sanatan and dharma, whether used together or not, are utilized to convey several ideals or concepts. The moot point is from when was the term sanatana dharma used to indicate collective religions of the subcontinent, just like how the term hinduism is used today. Unfortunately, when dating and interpolations are in doubt, it gets tricky to solve this).
 
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As usual of you, that you nominated yourself as the King (Queen). That is the quality that endears you so much on this site.
Thot i already explained the context of andhon mein kana raja. But well, you want your potshots, you can take it. Can't feel sympathy for your unfortunate comprehension though.
 
Besides being brahminically initiated, Stephen has also been to India numerous times and traveled extensively throughout the country, visiting most of the major holy places and temples, and many minor ones, and gaining a wide variety of spiritual experiences that only such places can give. His knowledge of India and familiarity with traveling in such a diverse country has made him an advisor for those who would like information concerning their own journeys to India. Stephen is also a free-lance photographer and does what he calls cultural photojournalism, capturing the essence of India and spiritual life in practice, which can help explain and show the depth of the culture. He enjoys giving slide shows on the holy places, and mixing photos with philosophy.
About Stephen Knapp | Stephen Knapp
He appreciates Hindu Culture.

Kahan Raj Bhoj Kahan Gangu taili.
 
Besides being brahminically initiated, Stephen has also been to India numerous times and traveled extensively throughout the country, visiting most of the major holy places and temples, and many minor ones, and gaining a wide variety of spiritual experiences that only such places can give. His knowledge of India and familiarity with traveling in such a diverse country has made him an advisor for those who would like information concerning their own journeys to India. Stephen is also a free-lance photographer and does what he calls cultural photojournalism, capturing the essence of India and spiritual life in practice, which can help explain and show the depth of the culture. He enjoys giving slide shows on the holy places, and mixing photos with philosophy.
About Stephen Knapp | Stephen Knapp
He appreciates Hindu Culture.

Kahan Raj Bhoj Kahan Gangu taili.
Well, if he can present sources for his claims, that wud be good. Otherwise, like the hindutva lobby he cannot be taken seriously. Its kinda ironical, he is a westerner. So much for those who jump the gun against ''western scholars''....

Once upon a time, was a huge fan of his spending a lot of time on his site. Now, well....
 
Dear Palindrome,

For Sanatana, one is from Manusmrithi...Other is in Bhagavatha Purana

Manu Smriti (4-138) :

Satyam bruyatpriyam bruyanna bruyatsatyamapriyam.
Priyam cha nanrtam bruyadesa dharmah sanatanah.


The Bhagavata Purana reads:

"At the end of each cycle of four yugas, the rishis, through their asceticism, saw the collections of srutis swallowed up by time, after which the eternal (Sanatanah) dharma (was re-established)."
 
Thot i already explained the context of andhon mein kana raja. But well, you want your potshots, you can take it. Can't feel sympathy for your unfortunate comprehension though.

It is not me taking potshots at you, but you shot down all members here as BLIND, as usual you want to prove your superiority, by cutting all others.
 
....The British divided & ruled the people...Hope we dot fall prey to such propaganda
vgane, do you really think before the British came life was tranquil and everybody willingly cooperated with each other and there was no division or exploitation?

British sins in India is very long indeed, but it does not include dividing people, they didn't have to do it, the society was already quite divided. All the British had to do was to exploit the divisions that already existed and they did that quite well.

thanks ..
 
Dear Palindrome,

For Sanatana, one is from Manusmrithi...Other is in Bhagavatha Purana

Manu Smriti (4-138) :

Satyam bruyatpriyam bruyanna bruyatsatyamapriyam.
Priyam cha nanrtam bruyadesa dharmah sanatanah.


The Bhagavata Purana reads:

"At the end of each cycle of four yugas, the rishis, through their asceticism, saw the collections of srutis swallowed up by time, after which the eternal (Sanatanah) dharma (was re-established)."
Yes that version is also present in this: Sanatana Dharma

As you can note the term is used for propagation of dharmashastra laws in the context of portraying them immortal, ever applicable and forever.

Since when is the term "sanatana dharma" used for collective religions of the subcontinent, to indicate 'hinduism', just like how the term 'hinduism' is used today? Dating is a must (puranas were being composed even in the 15th century AD, one also needs to rule out interpolations, esp those made in the colonial period).

Unfortunately, folks assume anything written in sanskrit should be ancient. Rather recently, a poster (zebra) thot the ganapati atharva shirsha is an ancient scripture....
 
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Yeah!! it has to be called only "brahmanical" pantheon, carefully choosing the word brahmanical. They were not Hindu pantheon. The purpose is well understood. We can start another glorious war of words about brahmins, the atrocities they committed through millennia, brahminism as different from brahmins, castes, varna, supremacist brahmins etc etc., People here have a special gene in them which gets triggered on often to provoke others into a brawl. Great going indeed. All the best.

Dear Vaagmi,

The practice of enslavement was not an outcome of religion. The gradation of social groups was also not strictly an outcome of religion either. The justification provided to such gradation was not the sole preserve of Vedic or hindu religion. The avedic or anti-brahminical religions as they call themselves had provided their own rationale for degradation of different social groups. I had earlier provided a couple of examples from tamil literature. I am sure you are aware of them, but I present them again -

From, Seevaka Chintamani, a jain text :
வில்லின் மாக் கொன்று வெள் நிணத் தடி விளிம்பு அடுத்த
பல்லினார்களும் படுகடல் பரதவர் முதலா
எல்லை நீங்கிய இழி தொழில் இழி குலம் ஒருவி
நல்ல தொல் குலம் பெறுதலும் நரபதி அரிதே

இதன் பொருள்: வில்லாலே விலங்குகளைக் கொன்று வெண்மையான நிணமும் ஊனும் ஓரத்திற் பற்றித் தின்கின்ற பற்களையுடையவர்களும் மீன்படு கடலின் ஓரத்தில் வாழும் பரதவரும் முதலாக அளவு கடந்த இழிதொழிலைப் புரிபவர் இழிகுலத்தினின்று தப்பி உயர்ந்த பழங்குடியிற் பிறத்தலும் அரியது.

In another verse it says:
ஊனொடு தேனும் கள்ளும் உண்டு உயிர் கொன்ற பாவத்து
ஈனராய் பிறந்தது இங்ஙன் இனி இவை ஒழிமின் என்ன..

ஊனையும் தேனையும் கள்ளையும் உண்டு உயிரையும் கொன்ற தீவினையால் இவ்விடத்திலே இழிந்த வேடராய்ப் பிறக்க நேர்ந்தது என்பது இதன் பொருள்.

Contrast this with what appar wrote:
சங்கநிதி பதுமநிதி இரண்டுந் தந்து
தரணியோடு வானாளத் தருவரேனும்
மங்குவார் அவர் செல்வம் மதிப்போம் அல்லோம்
மாதேவர்க்கு ஏகாந்தர் அல்லராகில்
அங்கமெலாம் குறைந்தழுகு தொழுநோயராய்
ஆவுரித்துத் தின்றுழலும் புலையரேனும்
கங்கைவார் சடைக்கரந்தார்க்கு அன்பராகில்
அவர் கண்டீர் நாம் வணங்கும் கடவுளாரே!

Don't you think the social groups such as the bharathavars, the eyinars, the meenavars, the vedars who are lowly castes in the eyes of anti-brahmanical religions, will take to hindu religion promoted by appar?

A point of fact is that the anti-brahmins/ anti-brahminists have all been ardent casteists and therefore continuance of similar ideas should not be a cause for surprise for us!
 
It is not me taking potshots at you, but you shot down all members here as BLIND, as usual you want to prove your superiority, by cutting all others.
I neither shoot nor consider anyone blind here, but its kinda silly when certain folks protest without taking the effort to ask others or read up a bit before coming down with potshots. Anyways, take the comment as you want, i cannot bother myself on this...
 
Dear Vaagmi, Renuka

The point of my post #95 was that you both objected to usage of term "brahmanical" religion but are okay with usage of the term "hindu" religion in that context, while the fact is both of them create a false impression and does not reflect the truth.
 
கால பைரவன்;206202 said:
A point of fact is that the anti-brahmins/ anti-brahminists have all been ardent casteists and therefore continuance of similar ideas should not be a cause for surprise for us!
This is common ruse used by brahmanists -- they claim anti-brahmanists are and will remain ardent casteists.

But well, take a look around. A former bania neither sticks to trading or shopkeeping. He can become an IT professional, a medical doctor, anything he pleases. So many secular vocations and education options did not exist previously. The old order is already changing. Its only a matter of time....no matter what caste-justifiers like to think....no matter how much intellectual justification is given to keep casteism alive (though today caste-names are "former" occupational categories only), alas, they may perhaps like to turn a blind eye to the changing world....

After 1000 years, will caste-labels used today exist?
 
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கால பைரவன்;206202 said:
Dear Vaagmi,

The practice of enslavement was not an outcome of religion. The gradation of social groups was also not strictly an outcome of religion either. The justification provided to such gradation was not the sole preserve of Vedic or hindu religion. The avedic or anti-brahminical religions as they call themselves had provided their own rationale for degradation of different social groups. I had earlier provided a couple of examples from tamil literature. I am sure you are aware of them, but I present them again -

From, Seevaka Chintamani, a jain text :
வில்லின் மாக் கொன்று வெள் நிணத் தடி விளிம்பு அடுத்த
பல்லினார்களும் படுகடல் பரதவர் முதலா
எல்லை நீங்கிய இழி தொழில் இழி குலம் ஒருவி
நல்ல தொல் குலம் பெறுதலும் நரபதி அரிதே

இதன் பொருள்: வில்லாலே விலங்குகளைக் கொன்று வெண்மையான நிணமும் ஊனும் ஓரத்திற் பற்றித் தின்கின்ற பற்களையுடையவர்களும் மீன்படு கடலின் ஓரத்தில் வாழும் பரதவரும் முதலாக அளவு கடந்த இழிதொழிலைப் புரிபவர் இழிகுலத்தினின்று தப்பி உயர்ந்த பழங்குடியிற் பிறத்தலும் அரியது.

In another verse it says:
ஊனொடு தேனும் கள்ளும் உண்டு உயிர் கொன்ற பாவத்து
ஈனராய் பிறந்தது இங்ஙன் இனி இவை ஒழிமின் என்ன..

ஊனையும் தேனையும் கள்ளையும் உண்டு உயிரையும் கொன்ற தீவினையால் இவ்விடத்திலே இழிந்த வேடராய்ப் பிறக்க நேர்ந்தது என்பது இதன் பொருள்.

Contrast this with what appar wrote:
சங்கநிதி பதுமநிதி இரண்டுந் தந்து
தரணியோடு வானாளத் தருவரேனும்
மங்குவார் அவர் செல்வம் மதிப்போம் அல்லோம்
மாதேவர்க்கு ஏகாந்தர் அல்லராகில்
அங்கமெலாம் குறைந்தழுகு தொழுநோயராய்
ஆவுரித்துத் தின்றுழலும் புலையரேனும்
கங்கைவார் சடைக்கரந்தார்க்கு அன்பராகில்
அவர் கண்டீர் நாம் வணங்கும் கடவுளாரே!

Don't you think the social groups such as the bharathavars, the eyinars, the meenavars, the vedars who are lowly castes in the eyes of anti-brahmanical religions, will take to hindu religion promoted by appar?

A point of fact is that the anti-brahmins/ anti-brahminists have all been ardent casteists and therefore continuance of similar ideas should not be a cause for surprise for us!

Dear KB,

I understand well where I stand and where these anti-brahmins stand. The problem is with the frequency with which they keep spraying this on us. I am fed up. The Hindu religion is beautiful beyond words. But there are those hindus who want to disfigure their own face and we cant do anything about it. Thanks.
 
This is common ruse used by brahmanists -- they claim anti-brahmanists are and will remain ardent casteists.

But well, take a look around. A former bania neither sticks to trading or shopkeeping. He can become an IT professional, a medical doctor, anything he pleases. So many secular vocations and education options did not exist previously. The old order is already changing. Its only a matter of time....no matter what caste-justifiers like to think....no matter how much intellectual justification is given to keep casteism alive (though today caste-names are "former" occupational categories only), alas, they may perhaps like to turn a blind eye to the changing world....

After 1000 years, will caste-labels used today exist?

Ruse or no ruse one thing is sure. That the castes will never go from the society is a certainty. Casteism is a different cup of tea and it has discrimination loaded into it. Excellence will always be respected and sought after. The other day a friend of me who is not a brahmin was advising his son to checkup whether he can get a brahmin doctor for consultation. I was surprised and asked him why a brahmin doctor. He said he prefers to consult a brahmin doctor as he wants to take no chance with his health. A bania may become a medical doctor but a bania patient will still prefer a brahmin doctor. Merit can never be kept subjugated for ever.
 
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