BROAD MINDED Vs TRADITIONAL

[sangom]

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Dear Shri Sangom, this is also an unfounded fear, IMO.

We all have our POV and we present it to the best our ability to persuade. I also further assume, and I believe this is a fair assumption, that we all are convinced in our own way of the "rightness" of the position we are arguing in favor of. So, if someone feels strong enough to encourage movement towards the liberal end, then they have the right to present that argument. If the position advocated is unsettling, then, the right response is to present an argument for not moving to the liberal side too quickly and leave it to the readers to decide what to do, if anything.

A position or an argument, made with all civility and decency, is unsettling to some cannot be a valid reason to ask the proponents of that position to refrain from presenting that argument.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

I find that you have not given any notice to my remarks, "It is similar to telling a small child that he/she will grow, become old and diseased and will die surely; the young mind will be shocked to even hear this, much less to accept it."

Anyway I feel there is no point in my trying further to convey my idea more clearly. So, I will stop here.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

i must be be one of the 'the other whose post sound in this fashion'. usually i prefer not to answer innuendos, because i would very much discuss a post for what it is worth direct face to face. even if i am not alluded to, i would like to take up their case.

i don't think in any of my posts that i used any exhortation, as this would imply inciting or encouraging someone to do something. i give credit to the forum members for ability to think for themselves and evaluate values and solutions. what is presented is one pov, based on my experiences in life. each one of us is an history to itself, and our views reflect the rich details that went to build what we are today. while i do not deny anyone's right to express themselves, in the same context, i think it is only fair that i get a chance to be read.

what is unnerving to me is the double standards, that many members have and no one has replied to this. why is it ok for your own son or daughter to marry out of tambrams, while it is not good, for other's sons, with even more acute problems, such as finding a tambram girl willing to marry them? there are so many young men condemned to a lonely life in old age, and to me, they need encouragement and be set up for success. not in another ten years. or twenty years. but now, for everyone has only youth in this world. once it is gone, it is gone forever.

the only credit that i am willing to take, and i consider myself this, is to be solution oriented. i am not comfortable with folks who keep complaining about the current situations, blame the british or muslims, wail over the loss of spirituality and above all nowadays to blame our tambram girls and their parents. let us not wallow in the misery of others. let us move, and help people find time boxed solutions and give them encouragement. life is too short to procrastinate.

pann has stated something about certain types of folks 'showing wrong directions to the society'. while i would like to disqualify myself because i am not a person of 'occupy high positions in power and wield enormous influence on the other sections of the society', i would question the presumption as to who judges what is a 'wrong direction'. should old tambram men be the judges? or should it be the mid twenties unmarried womenfolk?

there is a lot of presumption as to what is 'wrong'. i think it is very personal, and barring absolutes like stealing, murder or betrayal, there can be valid arguements on both sides to define 'rights' and 'wrongs'

who would like to take the onus of handing out judgements as to the rigths or wrongs, in this forum? can anyone claim to have understood the issues from all perspectives, and weigh them all uniformly and without prejudice, and to have come to conclude the mighty judgements? i, for cringe even at the thought of even passing a judgement on my own views, for i know for sure, they are definitely flawed and of limited perspectives.

so, instead of generalizations, and innuendos, and morally high road overview, a good starting point, may be examples or quotes to prove a point of view or better still, to explain one. let us start from the bottom, and buid our cases. maybe we will not convert someone else to our viewpoint, but atleast we will better understand our own stands.

thank you.

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

Any one articulating something quite ofter tries to turn the listener to his/her point of view. A liberal or an anarchist would like others to see things as he/sees them. So there could hardly be anything if an opinion is expressed that one is persuading others to see his/her point of few. A statement of fact is mere reporting.

History writing is all about opinion as one sees the facts.

Extant practices of this day would become tradition after few years. Those sneering at traditionalists have to keep that in view. Nothing comes unmixed.
What we are today (both positives and negatives) are result of the past... our practises will determine tomorrow's tradition.

Regards,
Swami

 

[C RAVI]

[FONT=&quot]Sri Pannvalan,
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The article of your own that you have published in this thread, epitomizing certain groups and causes, in order to zero in on differences between broad minded and traditional life style, I have considered all of your points as limiting to the concern of sustaining Brahmin culture and tradition.

I feel, taking your article to a macro level of debating on "what is right & what is wrong in one's life", "black & white aspects of one's life", "grey aspects of each considerations in one's life" etc..etc.. ,obviously would be limitless and would make no concrete conclusion as what to determine perfect/wrong. Every individual differ with their likings, preferences, belief & understanding and live one’s own life. Hence no one can stand authority to fix a rule and or to condemn the other beyond one’s maturity and understanding of what is life.

Learning to improve, adapting to survive, changing to cope, compromising to have solutions are all as per each individual’s acceptance on his/her own or upon guidance by others, for one’s own reasonable requirements & betterment.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So, I believe that your article is meant purely to sustain Brahmin community. There would be a dichotomy, if the subject is taken for debating on the common grounds of individual life situations and preferences, determining one’s broad mindedness/narrow mindedness/traditional mindset etc, that are irrespective of any religion, cast & creed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I would be grateful to you, if you can list out some of the vital points that you think may help Brahmin folks inside and outside India to contribute for the sustenance of Brahmin community amidst drastically changing environment, otherwise of which you fear, the Brahmin society would be in limbo and would vanish one's for all in due course of time.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe that there are few or many Brahmins born and brought up outside India and having a different nationality altogether are happy to be offered with some sort of Brahmin identity by their family and local Brahmin Samajam/Sabha. Obviously there are many such folks who are living outside India for their livelihood.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Subsequent to you document, your further elaboration on crucial points here would help all the Brahmins (including Brahmins in India) to sustain Brahmin tradition and culture to their best capacity (at least as a bare minimum requirement) for themselves and for our society.[/FONT]


Thanks and regards

 

[SwamiTaBra]

[FONT=&quot]Sri Pannvalan,
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The article of your own that you have published in this thread, epitomizing certain groups and causes, in order to zero in on differences between broad minded and traditional life style, I have considered all of your points as limiting to the concern of sustaining Brahmin culture and tradition.

I feel, taking your article to a macro level of debating on "what is right & what is wrong in one's life", "black & white aspects of one's life", "grey aspects of each considerations in one's life" etc..etc.. ,obviously would be limitless and would make no concrete conclusion as what to determine perfect/wrong. Every individual differ with their likings, preferences, belief & understanding and live one’s own life. Hence no one can stand authority to fix a rule and or to condemn the other beyond one’s maturity and understanding of what is life.

Learning to improve, adapting to survive, changing to cope, compromising to have solutions are all as per each individual’s acceptance on his/her own or upon guidance by others, for one’s own reasonable requirements & betterment.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So, I believe that your article is meant purely to sustain Brahmin community. There would be a dichotomy, if the subject is taken for debating on the common grounds of individual life situations and preferences, determining one’s broad mindedness/narrow mindedness/traditional mindset etc, that are irrespective of any religion, cast & creed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I would be grateful to you, if you can list out some of the vital points that you think may help Brahmin folks inside and outside India to contribute for the sustenance of Brahmin community amidst drastically changing environment, otherwise of which you fear, the Brahmin society would be in limbo and would vanish one's for all in due course of time.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I believe that there are few or many Brahmins born and brought up outside India and having a different nationality altogether are happy to be offered with some sort of Brahmin identity by their family and local Brahmin Samajam/Sabha. Obviously there are many such folks who are living outside India for their livelihood.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Subsequent to you document, your further elaboration on crucial points here would help all the Brahmins (including Brahmins in India) to sustain Brahmin tradition and culture to their best capacity (at least as a bare minimum requirement) for themselves and for our society.[/FONT]


Thanks and regards

Sorry to interlope.
I reproduce what I had stated in different thread. However, it would only be proper if Sri. Pannvalan outlines his views.

One feels that the agenda (for lack of a better word from me)for continuation of brahminhood has to be revisited. CHO Ramaswamy’s efforts in this respect has to be commended for his TV serial, though the storyline, the narrative could be faulted. Often we fall into the trap of justifying modern day requirements, its pressures, the influences on the present state and drift thereof. Yes, the current challenges has to dealt but the larger goal should not lost sight of.

Let us first make ourselves clear: whether brahminhood is necessary for Hinduism? Despite the rationalists, the larger hindu community (unconsciously) considers brahminhood the custodians of the vedic traditions – something unique. Having gone around Tamil Nadu, I could observe that even in villages where Brahmins have vacated, the temples with agamic traditions, the villagers would rather prefer to have a debauch kurukkal rather than a pujari from non-brahmin caste.

If Brahminhood is necessary, will not sensible that we the inheritors do what we can for preservation. The moment we start whining about the discrimination in secular employments, we find ourselves pitted against the other castes, which of course is detrimental to the larger interest of Hinduism.

[FONT=&quot]I just have few ideas:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a[/FONT][FONT=&quot])Plan for new agraharams spread across the southern states. ( I suppose Hindus in Andhra and Karnataka would be more receptive to such projects)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]b[/FONT][FONT=&quot])The inhabitants of these agraharams, would be vaidikas who would be scrupulously following the nitya karmas as enjoined in sastras. There could be two distinctive strands amongst them: i) one devoted to recitations of vedic hymns and performing yagnas ii) pandits, those interpreting sastras, and will be studying various vedangas and 64 arts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]c[/FONT][FONT=&quot])They would be provided the basic necessities and other facilities necessary to carry out the vedic rituals.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]d[/FONT][FONT=&quot])Employment should be barred for all the inhabitants of the proposed agraharams.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Let it be made amply clear. There is no need for brahminhood, if there is no desideratum for the preservation of the vedic lore.

 

[happyhindu]

Sorry to interlope.
I reproduce what I had stated in different thread. However, it would only be proper if Sri. Pannvalan outlines his views.

One feels that the agenda (for lack of a better word from me)for continuation of brahminhood has to be revisited. CHO Ramaswamy’s efforts in this respect has to be commended for his TV serial, though the storyline, the narrative could be faulted. Often we fall into the trap of justifying modern day requirements, its pressures, the influences on the present state and drift thereof. Yes, the current challenges has to dealt but the larger goal should not lost sight of.

Let us first make ourselves clear: whether brahminhood is necessary for Hinduism? Despite the rationalists, the larger hindu community (unconsciously) considers brahminhood the custodians of the vedic traditions – something unique. Having gone around Tamil Nadu, I could observe that even in villages where Brahmins have vacated, the temples with agamic traditions, the villagers would rather prefer to have a debauch kurukkal rather than a pujari from non-brahmin caste.

If Brahminhood is necessary, will not sensible that we the inheritors do what we can for preservation. The moment we start whining about the discrimination in secular employments, we find ourselves pitted against the other castes, which of course is detrimental to the larger interest of Hinduism.

[FONT=&quot]I just have few ideas:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]a[/FONT][FONT=&quot])Plan for new agraharams spread across the southern states. ( I suppose Hindus in Andhra and Karnataka would be more receptive to such projects)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]b[/FONT][FONT=&quot])The inhabitants of these agraharams, would be vaidikas who would be scrupulously following the nitya karmas as enjoined in sastras. There could be two distinctive strands amongst them: i) one devoted to recitations of vedic hymns and performing yagnas ii) pandits, those interpreting sastras, and will be studying various vedangas and 64 arts.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]c[/FONT][FONT=&quot])They would be provided the basic necessities and other facilities necessary to carry out the vedic rituals.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]d[/FONT][FONT=&quot])Employment should be barred for all the inhabitants of the proposed agraharams.[/FONT]


Let it be made amply clear. There is no need for brahminhood, if there is no desideratum for the preservation of the vedic lore.

Please cud you mention:
1) What is "Vedic" according to you? Wud it be the arya samaj way of rejecting idol worship or wud it include idol worship?
2) If the son of a vaidika in the proposed agraharam above decides to seek secular employment will there some sort of action taken against him ?

As for the comparison between the debauched kurukkal and a NB pujari, you cud be mistaken. Please do not compare past with present. Esp in this new age when things are changing rapidly. I certainly know of priests trained by Arya Samaj who are very well received by the public. Someone we know recently availed the services of priests at ISCKON and were satisfied. There are also people studying vedic science in places like Maharshi University, Florida Vedic College, etc. And here are some indian institutions teaching karmakanda: http://www.hindu.com/fline/fl2614/stories/20090717261403100.htm Vedic lore is being preserved in such ways also..

Regards.

 

[pannvalan]

Forsaking and then forgetting one’s traditions

I wanted to answer the questions raised here regarding pinpointing of certain specific issues.

Some Tamil quotations in the attachment are:

பெற்ற தாயும், பிறந்த பொன்னாடும்,
நற்றவ வானினும் நனிசிறந் தனவே.

தமிழ்த் திருநாடு தன்னை - பெற்ற
தாயென்று கும்பிடடி, பாப்பா.

வேறுவேறு பாஷைகள் கற்பாய் நீ
வீட்டுவார்த்தை கற்கிலாய், போ போ போ

 

[pannvalan]

Ravi,

I know you. My grievance is certainly not against you.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

Any one articulating something quite ofter tries to turn the listener to his/her point of view. A liberal or an anarchist would like others to see things as he/sees them. So there could hardly be anything if an opinion is expressed that one is persuading others to see his/her point of few. A statement of fact is mere reporting.

History writing is all about opinion as one sees the facts.

Extant practices of this day would become tradition after few years. Those sneering at traditionalists have to keep that in view. Nothing comes unmixed.
What we are today (both positives and negatives) are result of the past... our practises will determine tomorrow's tradition.

Regards,
Swami

Dear Swami,

Thank you for your note. As a follow up, I have some queries for you.

I would be grateful if you could explain what you mean by ‘sneering’. Also where one group, since you have picked the ‘traditionalists’ being sneered at. In a written medium how does one identify a sneer? Are there any example of sneers here in this thread

Which comes to the next point: what is the dividing line between traditionalists and the (for want of any other name) progressives? We can perhaps build this list starting from the lowest common denominators: poonal wearing, performing sandhi every day, veggie food, no alcohol, eating out in restaurants, crossing the ocean, will disown relative indulging in ic marriage, cinemas, carnatic music, bharatanatyam, love of sanskrit over tamil, …

All these above can be and should be answered with yes or no. would this be some criteria to define some one as trad or prog? I find otherwise, the definitions very vague. There is no quantifiable measure; all that is left is just an expression of dislike and distrust.

Or perhaps you have ideas of your own. Your view of setting up agraharams, with defined purposes, while maybe idealistic, I think, is simply not practical for want of takers. I think, if you suggest something and vote yourself for it, you should have your family and children to be participants. Otherwise to me it is hypocracy, as it is easy to preach and do something different. One should practice what they preach.

People write what they feel based on their life experience, readings and feelings of empathy. If this strikes a chord, so be it. If it does not, so be it too. If this be reading as persuading someone to one’s pov, so be it. Personally, I just write what I feel and do not expect to win converts or enemies. Just a different pov. That’s all.

 

[C RAVI]

[FONT=&quot]Sri Pannvalan,

Thank you very much for your efforts and sparing your time to prepare and upload your document.

I am glad for myself being able to identify myself and my future as a Brahmin and pondering about many such aspects and the reasons for so many years, in view of advancing demands of life some way or other, almost similar to what you have presented in your post #31.

The future Brahmin society is in the hands of present generation marriageable boys and girls to determine and do the best to pass on the tradition and culture to the next generation, living in tune with changing world and challenges of life.

Doing so, there is nothing to feel as indulging in discrimination with other groups of the society. Every group has its own unique specialty, style and botheration to uphold its values for future generation.

IMHO, the more such traditional and cultural variables actively exists, the more is the charm of life for every group to fascinate about the other group's values and learn the essence of human life, while continuing with one's own valid and useful concepts as possible without compromising. With the diversities of culture and tradition, unity and solidarity among each group can still be achieved with love and respect towards each other.

As a individual human we carry certain values and principles of our own and as a descent individual we respect that of others. My point is, when we could achieve this what can restrict us from following our tradition and culture with due respect to that of others?

Off course one should have the passion to rejoice in one's own tradition and culture and the civility to honor that of others. Unless this determination exists, tradition & culture and its preservation would ever be a controversial topic of debate and would be nothing more than a Hot Topic.


[/FONT]

 

[kunjuppu]

Ravi,

I agree with you that the beauty of a Brahmin society is brought out in many of our overtly practising traditions which dwell more into habits than ode to the Vedas.

We in our house, the women wear madisar for pondugal idal, and go through the motions of whatever thingamajig that makes this an auspicious function for sumangalis. I do enjoy it, as this is a regular custom before any function.

The same goes for weddings. The sight of a smoke induced tired eyed couple having their first lunch together is a sight cherished to be seen. Usually these are among the last to eat, and this feast for the eyes, is often the domain of the cook and servers, and seldom of the near and dear. I usually sit out, and wait to partake my meals with the stars of the day. there is nothing like the arakku madisar on a young twenty something tambram girl – makes a beauty out of every one who wears it.

Should all the boys wear the poonal? I don’t know. All the youths I know who had the upananayanam in the past 10 years hung it on the wall till the next avani avittam. Is this a tradition that somebody should follow? If yes, why is it that so many don’t do it? People like me stopped wearing the poonal, because I cannot abide by its rules, and I did not do the same for my sons, because I cannot set them a good example and I would not turn myself to be a hypocrite.

Should everyone do the shraddham? I have paid my dues, but if someone feels that he was mistreated by his parent to such an extent, that he did not feel like performing the obsequies, I think it is his business, and not for me to condemn or comment. This too I have seen in my family.

Then we have those numerous ceremonies like chorunnal, kaadhu kutthal and what not? Do observance of these make us good Brahmins?

To me, I am fanatical about palghat cooking with a coconut base. A thanjavur cooking simply would not be a good enough Brahmin cuisine for me. food is what we carry wherever we go and while accommodating other types of cuisines, we revert to our own, for comfort and solace.

Ravi, what I hope to say, is that we should go down to the bottom and move up listing what is it that we consider to be Brahmin traditions. How much of it that we preserve, because I think, nowadays every one of us, without exception, would discard (willingly or otherwise) traditions, if it should so inconvenience us in our larger life goals and aims. Some of us are honest to accept this and do not fear to own it up. Others, whose practices are not in line with their preachings, I do not know what to say about them. it is a matter for their conscience and in my belief, for them to answer to God some day.

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi,

I agree with you that the beauty of a Brahmin society is brought out in many of our overtly practising traditions which dwell more into habits than ode to the Vedas.

We in our house, the women wear madisar for pondugal idal, and go through the motions of whatever thingamajig that makes this an auspicious function for sumangalis. I do enjoy it, as this is a regular custom before any function.

The same goes for weddings. The sight of a smoke induced tired eyed couple having their first lunch together is a sight cherished to be seen. Usually these are among the last to eat, and this feast for the eyes, is often the domain of the cook and servers, and seldom of the near and dear. I usually sit out, and wait to partake my meals with the stars of the day. there is nothing like the arakku madisar on a young twenty something tambram girl – makes a beauty out of every one who wears it.

Should all the boys wear the poonal? I don’t know. All the youths I know who had the upananayanam in the past 10 years hung it on the wall till the next avani avittam. Is this a tradition that somebody should follow? If yes, why is it that so many don’t do it? People like me stopped wearing the poonal, because I cannot abide by its rules, and I did not do the same for my sons, because I cannot set them a good example and I would not turn myself to be a hypocrite.

Should everyone do the shraddham? I have paid my dues, but if someone feels that he was mistreated by his parent to such an extent, that he did not feel like performing the obsequies, I think it is his business, and not for me to condemn or comment. This too I have seen in my family.

Then we have those numerous ceremonies like chorunnal, kaadhu kutthal and what not? Do observance of these make us good Brahmins?

To me, I am fanatical about palghat cooking with a coconut base. A thanjavur cooking simply would not be a good enough Brahmin cuisine for me. food is what we carry wherever we go and while accommodating other types of cuisines, we revert to our own, for comfort and solace.

Ravi, what I hope to say, is that we should go down to the bottom and move up listing what is it that we consider to be Brahmin traditions. How much of it that we preserve, because I think, nowadays every one of us, without exception, would discard (willingly or otherwise) traditions, if it should so inconvenience us in our larger life goals and aims. Some of us are honest to accept this and do not fear to own it up. Others, whose practices are not in line with their preachings, I do not know what to say about them. it is a matter for their conscience and in my belief, for them to answer to God some day.

I agree with you Sri Kunjuppu ji.

Unless we rejoice the tradition, culture, systems that all are unique to Brahmin style and perform those activities at home considering the auspiciousness of each, these can not be understood and followed by our offspring....If our children could not understand its value, importance, meaning and could not find them fascinating and mesmerizing, we are truly helpless. What we may consider as the essence of our tradition/culture to enjoy, may be for our offspring's a flight of fancy. The basic point in our family & our society's point of view is that a chain is no stronger than its weakest link.

Sri, Kunjuppi ji, regarding revering poonal, I can say that its each people's choice to feel its importance or knowing its purpose. Some may not know but still continue as a belief and some may discard it on the grounds you have pin pointed. I agree that, I don't do sandhya vandanam due to my own valid reasons like what others may have. But I chant Gayatri Mantram every morning at least 10 times, holding the "Brahma Mudichu" of the poonal in a specific manner and satisfying myself.

As a common human being on this Earth, I do agree that at the end of the day we all accept that beauty is only skin deep.

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members,

Greetings. I think, Possibly due to my short comings my message in post #8 in this thread here was not responded.

For some reason, the possibility of an orthodox, broad-minded person was completely ignored. But in reality, only such persons are capable of extending some kind of flexibility. Only due to such persons, most communities still survive.

Sri.Pannvalan listed few factors for discussions/debates. In the absense of any discussion/debates, I wish to present my views about those factors.

(Back ground written by Sri.Pannvalan - Nowadays, I find that many Brahmins in the name of being very broad-minded are prepared to overthrow the traditions built upon by our intelligent ancestors, terming them as meaningless, irrelevant, cultural shackles and outmoded. This kind of behaviour is quite shocking to say the least.

When they feel that the identity of being a Brahmin is nothing but a tag around one’s neck and is to be discarded by the educated, forward looking and accommodative class. All the customs and practices that are identified with a particular community are no longer valid in the present scheme of things and the time has come to mix with others, so as not to be left out of the cultural revolution.

But, my question is whom we are fooling in this process? Are we saying to ourselves, “I am not the type who carry this bad reputation of carrying the burden of my ancestral past. I am a person with progressive ideas and am willing to change or reform myself so as to remain in tune with the rest of the population, lest I shall stand isolated”? ....What are the factors that impel one to think this way?).

1. Too much of interaction with other sections of the population, without realizing that interaction or having a healthy relationship with others cannot be at the cost of one losing one’s own identity.

Interactions and healthy relationships with different sections of society would only reiterate one's own identity. Even if we 'forget' our own uniqueness, others would 'expect' us to maintain our unique qualities. When a vegan or vegetarian gets invited to a party, the organisers always make sure, there is enough varieties available for them. On the other hand, the persons who refuse to interact freely with the different sections of the society run the risk of ending up lonely. In the case of loneliness, to overcome such terrible situation, they even go to the extend of compromising their own ideals. The important point to be noted here is, the persons who interact fluidly with other sections of society does not run the risk of lonliness.

With the above mentioned logic, I dare say, fluid interactions and healthy relationships only reiterate one's own identity.

2. Getting easily influenced by the media and carried away by their powerful propaganda.

Influence due to media exposure differs from person to person. People react differently to exposures. Personally, I am more exposed to movies. Actually I posted many movies in this forum. Some of the powerful movies I have watched are Paithrukam, Parinayam, Sopanam, Yugapurushan...to mention a few. Any default quality may not leave a person due to simple influences. Although media seems like a powerful propoganda, it is not very powerful. For example, if the media is that powerful, nobody would demand or give dowry in India!

3.Increasing awareness in one that repetition of the past will render one a museum piece.

I am not sufficiently knowledgable to understand the inner meaning of the quoted statement. In this case, since I didn't quite understand the meaning, I can't express my opinion.

4.The fear that heritage and culture will turn into unbreakable shackles, in due course.

Heritage and culture are ever evolving qualities. Our forefathers's life style kept evolving; culture depended upon the life styles. The whole thing became heritage. I have an heritage in my own life, so does every member in this forum irrespective their age. I mean just that person....not connected to his/her father or forefathers. My heritage starts from a small village in North Arcot Dist.....that's how my daughter views her heritage! I don't see any shackles in any point. When it comes to my heritage, I am more than happy to recognise my cultural heritage for example, in arts and religion, social heritage in caste system and everything connected to that etc.

Here is an example to show how heritage and culture evolves. One of my favourite songs.

5.The firm belief that unless one breaks from one’s legacy, one will get stuck at one place and cannot move forward.

I beg to disagree, please. It purely depends upon what was handed down. In post #8, I wrote about my grand mother. When one of my nieces entered in a ICM, this elderly lady didn't even bat an eye-lid; just received the couple in a very normal way. She said to me (over the phone) that she gave importance to my niece's wishes..if I had such broad mentality haned down to me, why would I break away such a legacy? I don't think I got stuch anywhere, nor my children. One should assess and evaluate the 'legacies' received; then should decide what legacies to maintain and what legacies are not not required. They are personal decisions, value based decisions. They are subject to individual decisions. So, in my opinion, it is quite difficult to pass a broad based opinion about them.

6.A growing false notion that knowing other cultures also includes accepting them and practicing them.

I know about Islamic religion, Muslim culture from different Islamic countries; I dare say, more than some average Muslims. My children can even 'think' like Europeans. Neither I follow Islam nor my children follow European culture. I think, I need not say more about this.

7.Inability to distinguish between fusion and confusion.

I think, I should pass this statement, please.

I wish to address the rest of the questions in a different post, please. Thanks.

Cheers!

 

[ganeshrev]

Shri Pannvalan,

I am not able to make a detailed reply to your first/second document due to heavy work at office.

But I would like to comment on "Dressing" section of the second document.

30 years back, I remember every patti beyond certain age will wear only madisar - Now can you say that those pattis who dont wear Madisar, but wearing 6 yards Sari now are not following the culture/ Tradition? Many Thathas beyond certain age in olden days would wear only Pancha kacchham - according to them wearing Dhothi in a normal way is one step below the standard for maintaining one's own tradition.

Personally,i find it difficult to wear Madisar. During varamahalakshmi Nonbu, even my mother in law wears normal sari because she is old and finds it tiring to wear the sari. So do I - i simple forget the technique and so I wear a 6 yards saree.But when I sit and pray and do pooja, i fully devote my 30 minutes towards paryers and Sthothram. I do not feel guilty of not wearing Madisar .I simply do not accept that i am breaking away from the Tradition. For me, my primary goal is to pray to goddess Lakshmi and am happy that I am able accompolish that.

What i mean to say is, as the generation progresses and influence of other factors come in - External practices can be adapted based on the weather, work, etc.(I just am hurrying up- So please pardon me for my botched post).But what I feel important is being good, thinking good and praying for the welfare of the family and the society.

I personally feel comfortable in Salwar as it suits my work at home as well as office - I dont feel the need to dress up differently inside the home just to keep up the tradition. I am comfortable is Salwar and do not think I have to dress up in Saree to externally show case the symbol of our culture.

Hypothetically speaking, I would settle for a good man for my daughter who does not care about dhothis, other superficial traditions and other visible symbols of traditions than a cynical person who says he follows all our cultural practices and dresses as per our culture.

I may add more later - But I thought I should record my disagreement with this.

Namaskarams
revathi

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

Any one articulating something quite ofter tries to turn the listener to his/her point of view. A liberal or an anarchist would like others to see things as he/sees them. So there could hardly be anything if an opinion is expressed that one is persuading others to see his/her point of few. A statement of fact is mere reporting.

History writing is all about opinion as one sees the facts.

Extant practices of this day would become tradition after few years. Those sneering at traditionalists have to keep that in view. Nothing comes unmixed.
What we are today (both positives and negatives) are result of the past... our practises will determine tomorrow's tradition.

Regards,
Swami

Swami,

while i agree with your post in principle, i would like you to let me know how you describe 'sneering'. it appears as a one sided act against the traditionallists.

i presume, as per your note, from the other side, ie the traditionalist do not use this.

i am just curious as to how you discover this characterestic in any post. seriously.

thank you.

 

[kunjuppu]

I like the title of this thread. After all being broad minded has always been associated with goodness, atleast in my mind. There is a level of tolerance that comes out of a cultured individual, who is able to appreciate in the goodness of a wide variety of things in life. To me to term someone ‘broad minded’ is always a complement, as opposed to a bigot, prejudiced, doctrinaire, dogmatist, fanatic or zealot. So, on the face of it, I would like to be broad minded.

On the other hand I could be traditional too in my practices. I love palghat cooking, celebrate all festivals, see Indian movies, love tamil and Indian film music, say my hanuman chalisa several times a day, ensured to have given my children a strong hindu identity and above all, a strong sense of pride in our community achievements. I do not have poonal but then half the guys I know do not have the poonal. Whenever I go to india, I visit the temples, as also in Toronto, where I live. I move comfortably in any Brahmin crowd as they see in my as one of their own.

So, having read pann’s lists and the answers: what strikes me is the dichotomy between what is said and what is felt. On the face of it, what is said is straightforward. But what is left unsaid, and this is what, it appears to me, is a deep held dislike of folks who are honest and openly express the attributes of the current tambram society. Admittedly there are hypocracies in any society, for is it not the hypocracies that bind us? Deep in our heart we may feel that many of the rituals have lost their relevancy, atleast to the way of life that we have chosen, but to admit so publicly, sounds blasphemous. There is also an imagined public out there which supposedly gets ‘corrupted’ on such maxims as eating meat is ok, drinking alcohol is ok, intercaste marriage is ok etc etc.

If one sees the matrimonial ads right across all castes and religions, india and Indian heritage folks around the world should all be saints. We never see ads where the boy or girl, drinks, eats meat, loves partying and has had relationships before. Perhaps one needs these qualities to advertise or those who advertise have these qualities as a result of which, they cannot find a mate otherwise? I don’t know, but it sure stretches my credibility as to our level of honesty and ability to look at ourselves critically.

I think our strength will come, not from invoking traditions that we do not follow anymore, but exhort others of our clan to do so, but by understanding where we are, why we are what we are, and coming to terms with the challenges of today and preparing ourselves for tomorrow. All of this needs a frankness and an open mindset. It needs a willingness to accept self criticisms and the ability to find areas where we can improve ourselves. If we go under the assumption that all is hunky dory with us, then we are not even in the playing field. So we condemn another generation to a set of practices which are best practised half baked, and these are also inculcated with a sense of entitlement of being a tamil Brahmin, and when they grow up, they find there is no gold at the end of that rainbow, they too turn bitter and start hurling epithets and abuses at anyone who disagrees with their mores.

About 30 years ago, we used to have a Punjabi sikh friend who used to encourage her children to watch hindi movies. How else would they know our culture, she would challenge to my incredible look on my face. I used to mock that attitude till now, when I find that probably my sikh friend had more honesty in dealing with her culture and its adaptability to the current day, than my tambram kiths and kins.

Such is life.

sp. i honestly believe that even the most espouser of traditional value here, if confronted with 'modernity' as defined by a meat eating or drinking or ic marriage inclined child, will not disown them. they have this love of their children and a sense of fairness, and also a realization of the changing times. it is just that they still have not grown up to muster the courage to express this loud and shout it out in this forum. the reasons, i cannot comprehend. the sooner they do, the sooner this thread can close in harmony. all along, i have been surprised at the inability of mature members' inability or unwillingness to participate in self reflection. these can provide flashes of honesty, only too quickly to hide behind clouds of doubts or fears raised by what is perceived as headon fast track to 'modernity'. it is nothing like that. it is only looking at ourselves, as what we are today. it is not all that bad a picture.

 

[pannvalan]

This is in reply to the post of Revathi.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Please cud you mention:
1) What is "Vedic" according to you? Wud it be the arya samaj way of rejecting idol worship or wud it include idol worship?
2) If the son of a vaidika in the proposed agraharam above decides to seek secular employment will there some sort of action taken against him ?

As for the comparison between the debauched kurukkal and a NB pujari, you cud be mistaken. Please do not compare past with present. Esp in this new age when things are changing rapidly. I certainly know of priests trained by Arya Samaj who are very well received by the public. Someone we know recently availed the services of priests at ISCKON and were satisfied. There are also people studying vedic science in places like Maharshi University, Florida Vedic College, etc. And here are some indian institutions teaching karmakanda: Producing priests Vedic lore is being preserved in such ways also..

Regards.[/QUOTE
Sir,
Arya Samaj also advocates:

i) believes in casteless hindu society
ii) permitting recitation of vedas by all.

If you are an Arya Samaji, or one who subscribes to its tenets, ab initio you should have kept away from this forum.

Many from Punjab, the nominal Arya Samaji, do not abhor idol-worship, in fact they visit temples with devotion!!

As one who has lived in the rural Tamil Nadu in the recent times, my observations are first hand. Also I speak in the backdrop of recent development in which non-brahmin boys trained in the agama patasalas are not welcomed to perform in temples that have been following agamic rituals.

If you have to talk about Florida, ISCKON, Maharishi's university and host of other institutions, I am afraid we are going at a tangent. You are silent about Swami Dayananda Sarasvathi (once disciple of Swami Chinmayananda) and the effort of his organisation in this front.
The issue is about survival of the traditions in the homeland (hope you would not ask what tradition means here) of preservation of vedic lore and all that accompanies that.
Breaches of discipline in proposed agraharam, should be dealt sternly. An analogy: any Roman Catholic priest breaking the vows of chastity is to be removed from the order.

I've only adumbrated, and I am aware it will be uphill and would require the involvement of larger Hindu community as well.
Influential hindus in consultation with dharmacharyas have discuss in detail..

With regards,
Swami

 

[sangom]

This is in reply to the post of Revathi.

Dear Shri Pannvalan,

In the attachment, I find that there is one serious flaw viz., you are comparing Keralites (people belonging to a linguistic state as a whole) to tambrams who are an assortment of different - and even antagonistic, at one time - groups under a caste umbrella but living in very many different locations.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

I like the title of this thread. After all being broad minded has always been associated with goodness, atleast in my mind. There is a level of tolerance that comes out of a cultured individual, who is able to appreciate in the goodness of a wide variety of things in life. To me to term someone ‘broad minded’ is always a complement, as opposed to a bigot, prejudiced, doctrinaire, dogmatist, fanatic or zealot. So, on the face of it, I would like to be broad minded.

On the other hand I could be traditional too in my practices. I love palghat cooking, celebrate all festivals, see Indian movies, love tamil and Indian film music, say my hanuman chalisa several times a day, ensured to have given my children a strong hindu identity and above all, a strong sense of pride in our community achievements. I do not have poonal but then half the guys I know do not have the poonal. Whenever I go to india, I visit the temples, as also in Toronto, where I live. I move comfortably in any Brahmin crowd as they see in my as one of their own.

So, having read pann’s lists and the answers: what strikes me is the dichotomy between what is said and what is felt. On the face of it, what is said is straightforward. But what is left unsaid, and this is what, it appears to me, is a deep held dislike of folks who are honest and openly express the attributes of the current tambram society. Admittedly there are hypocracies in any society, for is it not the hypocracies that bind us? Deep in our heart we may feel that many of the rituals have lost their relevancy, atleast to the way of life that we have chosen, but to admit so publicly, sounds blasphemous. There is also an imagined public out there which supposedly gets ‘corrupted’ on such maxims as eating meat is ok, drinking alcohol is ok, intercaste marriage is ok etc etc.

If one sees the matrimonial ads right across all castes and religions, india and Indian heritage folks around the world should all be saints. We never see ads where the boy or girl, drinks, eats meat, loves partying and has had relationships before. Perhaps one needs these qualities to advertise or those who advertise have these qualities as a result of which, they cannot find a mate otherwise? I don’t know, but it sure stretches my credibility as to our level of honesty and ability to look at ourselves critically.

I think our strength will come, not from invoking traditions that we do not follow anymore, but exhort others of our clan to do so, but by understanding where we are, why we are what we are, and coming to terms with the challenges of today and preparing ourselves for tomorrow. All of this needs a frankness and an open mindset. It needs a willingness to accept self criticisms and the ability to find areas where we can improve ourselves. If we go under the assumption that all is hunky dory with us, then we are not even in the playing field. So we condemn another generation to a set of practices which are best practised half baked, and these are also inculcated with a sense of entitlement of being a tamil Brahmin, and when they grow up, they find there is no gold at the end of that rainbow, they too turn bitter and start hurling epithets and abuses at anyone who disagrees with their mores.

About 30 years ago, we used to have a Punjabi sikh friend who used to encourage her children to watch hindi movies. How else would they know our culture, she would challenge to my incredible look on my face. I used to mock that attitude till now, when I find that probably my sikh friend had more honesty in dealing with her culture and its adaptability to the current day, than my tambram kiths and kins.

Such is life.

sp. i honestly believe that even the most espouser of traditional value here, if confronted with 'modernity' as defined by a meat eating or drinking or ic marriage inclined child, will not disown them. they have this love of their children and a sense of fairness, and also a realization of the changing times. it is just that they still have not grown up to muster the courage to express this loud and shout it out in this forum. the reasons, i cannot comprehend. the sooner they do, the sooner this thread can close in harmony. all along, i have been surprised at the inability of mature members' inability or unwillingness to participate in self reflection. these can provide flashes of honesty, only too quickly to hide behind clouds of doubts or fears raised by what is perceived as headon fast track to 'modernity'. it is nothing like that. it is only looking at ourselves, as what we are today. it is not all that bad a picture.

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

The condescending tone in the opening paragraph is sufficient proof of sneer loaded with prejudice.

Valuing tradition, I suppose lies in appreciating the legacy, even if were are constrained in adopting them in toto. Compared to smarthas of Tamil Nadu, I find more vaishnavas determined to cling, if you may call so, to the traditions. I salute them, even as I am a smartha.

By the way, Palghat was vibrant even till a few decades back for preservation of veda patasalas and like. Sri Seshadrinatha Sastri, former Principal of Madras Sanskrit College hails from that region and is an erudite traditionalist to boot!

With regards,
Swami

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members,

Greetings. This post is in continuation to post #37. Sri.Pannvalan said -

Who falls into this kind of cultural traps and quagmires?

1.Those who are not very well informed about their rich and ancient heritage.

This is the age of knowledge. Anyone interested to learn can learn almost about anything. Internet is a boon. Present situation is, if it is worth anything, it should be posted in the net. There was a time I longed to read various Tamizh literatures......In the recent days, I find them available in the net. Besides the internet references, I can virtually buy most any book on the net.

But, one should be interested to learn. If there is a will, there are many options available to learn.

Only the persons who are informed about rich and ancient heritage would understand its meaningful evelutions. Our heritage is not stuck in a time warp. Actually, there is one heritage which is stuck like that....But, Indian heritage, Hindu heritage is evolving fluidly. Only the persons who can bring the heritage forward to the present day would pass the heritage to future generations. For example, in the olden days, the vedic hymns were only passed by word of mouth. It was not even written down. But now, such informations are not only written down, also available to all the interested persons. Now, more persons, including persons living in a different country, persons who are not even Hindus can access these informations. We know not only our ancient heritage, but also the heritage of others too.

We only have to meet the persons of Indian origin from West Indies, Fiji, South Africa and such countries to see how these persons are maintaining the old heritage although they have been cut off from India for a very long time.

While it is important for the persons to learn our rich and ancient culture, it is also important for the culture to accomadate everyone. Any culture that follows exclusive policies may not have strong following.

2.Those who think that any type of change is for the better.

Those who think any type of change is better may possibly be living in a terrible condition. Someone who lives in a comfortable situation may not like changes; even may resist changes. persons living in utter poverty may not mind to try any changes which may promise a better condition. In the ever changing world, one can not resist changes. If we resist changes, we may be required to accept changes against our wishes. Usually, nobody gets forced to accomadate changes. At the end of the day, the degree of accomadating changes is a personal issue.

3. Those who get lured by the superficial things in life.

Who does not get lured by the superficial things in life? Everyone does. We came to this world empty handed; we will leave empty handed. Everything we go through in between is superficial. In my opinion, this neither has anything to do with broad-mindedness nor to maintain traditionality.

4. Those who want to go astray, but cite some silly reasons to justify their actions.

Astray from what? Strictly speaking, everyone has gone astray from ancient traditions. Nobody follows them, because such traditions have evolved. I don't think anyone is even interested in accepting this fact, leave alone giving silly reasons to justify.

If I analyse the next two points, I am afraid, I will be repeating myself. In the absence of clear identification of traditions, it is very hard to see what was left on the wayside.

Just because a person is modern, that does not make him/her a broad-minded person. I have seen pure scum-bags belonging to this category.

Broad-mindedness is a learned/nurtured quality. That gets developed by upholding individual values. Ancient culture and heritage helps; but they are not the only reasons for developing nice qualities. For example, we will come across broad-minded persons in any culture. They may be stickler to their ancient culture and heritage.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu, I give my view in bold letters within the quote below:

Ravi,

//I agree with you that the beauty of a Brahmin society is brought out in many of our overtly practising traditions which dwell more into habits than ode to the Vedas.//

Most of our habits have their origin and reasons in the vedas.

//We in our house, the women wear madisar for pondugal idal, and go through the motions of whatever thingamajig that makes this an auspicious function for sumangalis. I do enjoy it, as this is a regular custom before any function.
The same goes for weddings. The sight of a smoke induced tired eyed couple having their first lunch together is a sight cherished to be seen. Usually these are among the last to eat, and this feast for the eyes, is often the domain of the cook and servers, and seldom of the near and dear. I usually sit out, and wait to partake my meals with the stars of the day. there is nothing like the arakku madisar on a young twenty something tambram girl – makes a beauty out of every one who wears it.//

These are peripheral issues. Each one has his views about such things. If you ask a christian he would say the girl in her pure white wedding gown is the most beautiful one. But madisar and panchagachcham are not in the core of brahmin values

//Should all the boys wear the poonal? I don’t know. All the youths I know who had the upananayanam in the past 10 years hung it on the wall till the next avani avittam. Is this a tradition that somebody should follow? If yes, why is it that so many don’t do it? People like me stopped wearing the poonal, because I cannot abide by its rules, and I did not do the same for my sons, because I cannot set them a good example and I would not turn myself to be a hypocrite.//

Just because I am lazy or old and infirm I am not able to follow the strict regimen of the nithyakarma that I am supposed to do wearing the poonool.But I wont make a virtue of it and prescribe it to others leave alone justifying it and basking in the glory of such a "revolutionary" step I have taken. Every preceptor tries his best to practise what he preaches. But if he is unable to practise something which he preaches he does not automatically become a hypocrite and looses the eligibility to be a precept. Particularly if he is a father he would still have the duty to teach the son what is good in our culture and leave it to him to ask questions, find answers,discard whatever unwanted baggage is there and go through the experience and ultimately if necessary pick up what he jettisoned at an earlier evolutionary stage. This is my humble view. Kindly note I have used only the first person singular here.No offence meant. I believe, once you have thrown an idea into the forum it becomes the property of the forum and it can be criticised/appreciated freely by the members.

//Should everyone do the shraddham? I have paid my dues, but if someone feels that he was mistreated by his parent to such an extent, that he did not feel like performing the obsequies, I think it is his business, and not for me to condemn or comment. This too I have seen in my family.//

condemn-no. Comment-yes. There is nothing wrong in commenting about it. We comment only to our youngsters so that they learn. If someone feels so strongly about his parents to an extent that he would not forgive them even after death peace be with him. But I wont like my son or daughter to learn that kind of a malice from any one. Forgiving is the most beautiful thing to do I will tell them. And that is the essence of being a brahmin.

//Then we have those numerous ceremonies like chorunnal, kaadhu kutthal and what not? Do observance of these make us good Brahmins?//

These are common to other castes also.

//To me, I am fanatical about palghat cooking with a coconut base. A thanjavur cooking simply would not be a good enough Brahmin cuisine for me. food is what we carry wherever we go and while accommodating other types of cuisines, we revert to our own, for comfort and solace.//

These are personal preferences and have nothing to do with being a brahmin.

//Ravi, what I hope to say, is that we should go down to the bottom and move up listing what is it that we consider to be Brahmin traditions. How much of it that we preserve, because I think, nowadays every one of us, without exception, would discard (willingly or otherwise) traditions, if it should so inconvenience us in our larger life goals and aims.//

Yes. I agree with you.

//Some of us are honest to accept this and do not fear to own it up. Others, whose practices are not in line with their preachings, I do not know what to say about them. it is a matter for their conscience and in my belief, for them to answer to God some day.//

I have already mentioned about the preaching and it is dynamics. I would leave it at that. Cheers.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu, I give my view in bold letters within the quote below:

A good rebuttal.
Is wearing Poonal such a burden, it certainly is lighter than boots or waist belt; also it has non-religious use as well.

It has become a cliched to say that they would rather skip rituals for they are not given a meaning. What does raising a toast with cling of champagne stemmed-glasses signify? What does blowing off candles over a cake signify? How many question these practices..
These are gleefully accepted, but not homams, observations of other rituals are questioned. Perhaps observances themselves call for a different form of discipline.

Regards,
Swami

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Mr. Kunjuppu,

The condescending tone in the opening paragraph is sufficient proof of sneer loaded with prejudice.

i quote the text in reference below:

I like the title of this thread. After all being broad minded has always been associated with goodness, atleast in my mind. There is a level of tolerance that comes out of a cultured individual, who is able to appreciate in the goodness of a wide variety of things in life. To me to term someone ‘broad minded’ is always a complement, as opposed to a bigot, prejudiced, doctrinaire, dogmatist, fanatic or zealot. So, on the face of it, I would like to be broad minded.
Please look at it carefully. Have you not heard someone complemented as a broad minded person? Excuse me sir, but I have looked hard, and I have not found any ‘sneer loaded with prejudice’. No sneer was intended and I see no sneer. I need a better example.

Valuing tradition, I suppose lies in appreciating the legacy, even if were are constrained in adopting them in toto. Compared to smarthas of Tamil Nadu, I find more vaishnavas determined to cling, if you may call so, to the traditions. I salute them, even as I am a smartha.

Swami, you hit upon the words ‘constrained in adopting them’. I appreciate legacy as much as you do, and I probably have similar habits re constraints. So does, I think every tambram. We have all accepted the constraints and moved on. Except some of us, have this hypocracy of saying something and doing another. What is the use of poonal if you do not observe your daily regimen. I am not talking about sick old men. I am talking of boys in their teens till they are in their 60s ie the best of their lives.

I bet many of you guys are like that, and feel that just because you wear the poonal, albeit with constraints, that you have a greater respect for tradition. I think, folks like these, mock our tradition more than folks like me, who have called it quits, because we cannot accept the regimen of poonal. What do these guys go, once a year to avani avittam, which is more of a group gossip – how many of them count and do their gayatri 1008 times. those things, I have not seen practised since my teens and that is 47 years back. How many boys regularly do their sandhi after the poonal? Or for that matter their fathers?

I will say the same about alcohol, meat eating and intercaste marriage. We do it, if it is to our convenience. We do not let what we understand to be our brahminical heritage come in the way. Except we have a problem with being intellectually honest about it. Someone described our philosophy of life to be the 3C’s - Cash, Convenience & Comfort. He was observing a marriage ceremony. It could be applicable to any aspect of our life. This is something, that we all would have no problem accepting it casually on a one on one basis, but mention it in a public forum or in a group, all hell appears to break loose.

Another phenomenon that I see now in my family in india, is guys closer in age to me, suddenly overnight going madi. Ie they wont eat outside the house or the house of a Brahmin. But wedding feasts cooked by NBs apparently are ok. in my view, we pick and choose rituals and practices to our convenience, and claim we have more respect to the traditions. I figure it is more a fear of the coming drawing down of curtains and the need to answer our maker, more a reason for this partial madi than anything else.

I see 20 percent Brahmins calling 15 per cent ones, as blasphemous. None of us, for that matter are Brahmins, in the truest sense. it is best we be honest about our own limited and constrained 'respect' for tradition, than point fingers at others.

Why don’t you simply accept this as a fact, and we would have no quarrels. When I compare my lifestyle with many of Brahmins here in Toronto and in Madras, it is more or less identical, in what we maintain and we have given up. Except there is reluctance for many like you to accept that fact and to get upset at folks like me, who are honest about it. Next time, you see yourself, ‘constrained in another brahmin ritual’, please remember this.

By the way, Palghat was vibrant even till a few decades back for preservation of veda patasalas and like. Sri Seshadrinatha Sastri, former Principal of Madras Sanskrit College hails from that region and is an erudite traditionalist to boot!

That has nothing to do with what we are both talking about. no relevance to the ‘constraints in adoption’ of our regimens.

 

[kunjuppu]

Raju,

I agree with you 100%. I hope you are not surprised at that, because I am with you in spirit.

We are both talking of what ‘should’ and what ‘is’. There is tons of difference between what is practised and what is prescribed.

Brahmins of my father’s generation did not pass on those regimens to me and my friends. Except they went through the motions. My generation has felt that why be hypocritical and insult those institutions. If you cannot practice it, stay away, instead of mocking those functions with half baked half assed attempt with no sincerety.

Every one here who claims to be a traditionalist, is as much broad minded as the rest. There is a level of hypocracy, in accepting the various levels to which we practice our faith. Some do a little more than the others. That does not give the licence to the former, to condemn the latter, as having no ‘respect for traditions’.

When we all live in lies, I think, it is better to accept our limitations, and try to make better humans out of us, if not better Brahmins. The best of Brahmins, we seldom find. For those would spend their time leading a prescribed life, and will not indulge in practising constraints, to suit their worldly ambitions.

In the truest sense, none of us are Brahmins. As far as I know, brahminism does not accept partial identity – per Vedas either you live as prescribed and be a Brahmin, otherwise you are not. All of us belong to the latter category. Some of us are willing to wear that label. Others, for whatever reason, appear to have qualms.

Thank you.

 

[kunjuppu]

Pannvalan's list in post #41

My expectations are simple:

1. Let us keep in constant touch with our home state.
2. Let us speak in our mother tongue, while at home.
3. We will celebrate important festivals, without fail.
4. The way we dress speak about us; hence, let us not forget to wear our characteristic dresses, once in a while.
5. Let us not forget our ethnic food.
6. We will remain exposed to the music and other art forms of our state.
7. We shall never form an opinion about our heritage, without knowing it somewhat deeper.
8. We shall endeavour to retain those treasures our ancestors have given to us.
9. We must never feel shy to reveal our true cultural identity.
10. Let us take a pledge that we will not allow materialistic outlook supersede every other thing in life.

Pann,

I am very pleasantly surprised by your above prescriptions. Atleast the way I read it, it is quite different in tone and overview than your initial list at the start of this thread.

I would presume that these are the requirements of ‘traditionalists’ as viewed by you. I would agree to it.

Except #7, #8 – are not the entire list (#1 - #6, #9, #10) our heritage and the treasures handed to us by our ancestors?

I agree there are more, but #7, #8 are too vague and not in line with the rest of your list which is do-able.

Re #7, everyone, I think has an opinion of their heritage, as it is only human to be so. We all cannot have the same opinion. None of the scholars do either. Including ART. I am not sure whether you mean, ‘my heritage right or wrong’ here.

Again, ‘treasures of ancestors’ is vague enough to mean anything. Everything is a treasure from the ancestor, and you have watered it down to a practical list, which I think, is reasonable, for tambram identity to be kept alive. So, I am not sure, where the ‘treasures of ancestors’ come into play, if it does not include all the other points.

In this context, my home practices fit with your list. I have no quarrel with the list.

I am somewhat surprised myself, as I felt, that I was the epitome of that ignorant, shallow minded, decadent ‘broad minded’ individual and the primary target of many a critical notes in these threads.

I can only conclude, it is the level of honesty, that separates each of us, and that, I think is a sequence of a life time of experiences and our place of residence.

Ultimately, truth is stronger than any pretenses to ‘inherited greatness and the sense of entitlement that goes along with it. In our hearts, we all know the truth, but outwards, I am surprised at the level of the lies and dishonesty, and the harsh words thrown about, that too, in the name of our heritage.

I consider myself candid, but it may be too much for some to deal with this level of openness. I indulge in this type of open talk only among us, more as an exercise for our own to develop fortitude to deal with what we currently are, and not what we think we ought to be.. As a community, we discarded that garb several generations ago.

To sum up, I should say most tambrams in the west, that I am aware of, live within Pann’s guidelines. Many accept the limitations and do not put on airs. But a few do, and I call these hypocrites.

i will further take a cue from Pann, and bid this thread good bye. thanks everyone for their input and feedback. God Bless.