Caste system: an indigenous invention in South India? D. BALASUBRAMANIAN

[prasad1]

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Caste system to have been with us be much earlier, namely in people who were already in India in the Pleistocene era, between 30,000 – 10,000 years ago.


How does one address this question of the origin of the caste system in India?


A recent paper by G. Arun Kumar (of the Genographic Laboratory of Madurai Kamaraj University (MKU) Madurai) and others, published in the Journal PLoS ONE on November 28, 2012 (accessible free online at <PLOS ONE 7(11): e50269.doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0050269>) has taken a combination of genetic and anthropological analysis to address this question.
And it concludes that social stratification was already present among the Adivasis or tribal groups of Tamil Nadu well before the ‘Aryan’ migration.
In other words, it was and has been an indigenous invention.

.......

The results were revealing. They found strong evidence for genetic structure associated primarily with the mode of subsistence; in other words, fathers passed on their occupation and way of life to their sons.
Plus, since the group analyzed specifically one part of the Y chromosome that does not get diluted by recombination, they could do what geneticists refer as coalescence analysis, which allowed them to understand the genetic ancestry of traits and habits.
This let them suggest that social stratification of these indigenous sons of the soil had already occurred between 4000 to 6000 years ago, well before the West Asian influx.
The authors note that “the overall Y-chromosome patterns, the time depth of population diversifications and the period of differentiation were best explained by the emergence of agricultural technology in South India”.
In other words, population differentiation occurred well before the ‘Varna’ caste system. Patrilineage and demographic events seem to have brought in social strata and restricted gene pools, not external intervention.

The_Hindu

 

[psnarasimhan]

26-09-2012 அன்று “பிராமின் டுடே
கடந்த 26-09-2012 அன்று “பிராமின் டுடே” இதழின் சார்பில் நடந்த கலப்பு திருமணம் பற்றிய கலந்துரையாடல் கூட்டத்தில் நானும் கலந்துக் கொண்டேன். கலப்பு திருமணத்திற்கு எதிராக பலர் பேசியிருந்தாலும் கலப்பு திருமணத்தை ஆதரித்து பேசிய சிலரின் கருத்துக்களும் சிந்தனையை தூண்டுவதாக அமைந்ததை மறுப்பதற்கில்லை. சந்தியாவந்தனம் செய்ய சொல்லி தமது பிள்ளை குழந்தைகளை வற்புறுத்தும் நம் குல பெற்றோர்கள் பெண் களை மட்டும் சுலோகங்களை சொல்ல சொல்லியோ பூஜை புனஸ்காரங்களை செய்ய சொல்லியோ வற்புறுத்துவது கிடையாது. இது மட்டுமின்றி பெண்ணோ, பிள்ளையோ அவர்களது இளவயது ஆசா பாசங்களை உணராது அவர்கள் மூலம் வரும் வருமானத்திலேயே குறியாய் இருப்பது சிலரது வழக்கமாய் இருப்பதும் வாடிக்கையும் ஆகிவிடுகிறது. நமது ஜாதி பெண்கள் குறிப்பாக I.T Company- களில் வேலை பார்க்கும் பெண்கள் எவ்வித முன் யோசனை யும் இன்றி பிற ஜாதி பையன்களிடம் ஈர்க்கப்பட்டு பெற்றோர்களின் விருப்புக்கு மாறாக தம் வாழ்க்கையை அமைத்து கொண்டுவிடுகின்றனர். இதை தடுக்க எவராலும் முடிவதில்லை. இதனால் நம் சமூக பையன்கள் நல்ல குடும்பத்தில் பிறந்திருந்தும் நல்ல வேலையில் இருந்தும் திருமண வாழ்க்கை அமையாமல் வாடுகின்றனர். இந்த சூழலில் 30 அல்லது 35 வயதை தாண்டிய நம் பையன்களுக்கு எந்த காலத்தில் திருமணம் நடப்பது? அதிலும் மிக குறைந்த வருவாய் பெறும் வயது முதிர்ந்த பிராமண பையன்களுக்கு கல்யாணம் என்பதே கனவாகிவிடும் காலம் உருவாகி வருவதை மறுக்க முடியாது. இந்த இக்கட்டான சூழலில் வயது முதிர்ந்த நமது பையன்கள் நமக்கு ஒத்துவரக்கூடிய பிற இன பெண்களை மணம் முடித்து அந்த பெண்களையும் பிராமணர் களாக்கி விடுதல் ஏற்புடையதாகும் என கருதுகிறேன். இதனை நம் சமூக பெரிய வர்கள்தான் முடிவு செய்ய வேண்டும்.பூவணூர்.சுந்தர.ஜானகிராமன்
கொளத்தூர், சென்னை.99

 

[kunjuppu]

narasimhan,

i agree 100% with janakiraman. if you go through the various past threads, there is an example of namboodri folks in kerala, who go to the orphanages and marry girls from there. the advantage, is that these girls have no relations, and look up 100% to the husband for comfort and care. and agreeable, as per results, to learn to be a namboodri wife.

i dont know why we cannot adopt the same. instead of having disappointed and frustrated bachelors in their 30s, who come to forums like these, curse the girls and their parents, and beat their breasts.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There has been a lot of research in the last decade about the so called Aryan migration/invasion. It is a myth propagated by the British to suit their ends. Of course it also suited the needs of the so called Dravidian parties. Lot of research has been done to perpetuate the myth of Dravidian people. Because the parties have been in power for long they have even been able to get departments opened in foreign universities for Dravidian studies.

Very few of these studies are reported anywhere except in Tamil Nadu papers. This forum seems to attract all such motivated research.

Most of the so called Genetic studies are of no value in the absence of corroborative evidence. They are nothing but speculation.

There have been research papers proving (according to the authors)

1. Tamilians were the Polynesians and they were the ancestors of American Indians. They conquered Polynesia.

2. Tamilians constructed the Pyramids of Egypt and South America.

3. Tamilians and saivism ruled entire India. They were driven to South India by the Aryan invaders.

4. The Tamilians came from a continent called Kumari Kandam

In the old days these theories were rarely even published. I am quoting a couple of theories which were published in book form.

Now a days all these strange theories find a ready audience in news papers and the internet.

 

[palindrome]

There has been a lot of research in the last decade about the so called Aryan migration/invasion. It is a myth propagated by the British to suit their ends. Of course it also suited the needs of the so called Dravidian parties. Lot of research has been done to perpetuate the myth of Dravidian people. Because the parties have been in power for long they have even been able to get departments opened in foreign universities for Dravidian studies.

Very few of these studies are reported anywhere except in Tamil Nadu papers. This forum seems to attract all such motivated research.

Most of the so called Genetic studies are of no value in the absence of corroborative evidence. They are nothing but speculation.

There have been research papers proving (according to the authors)

1. Tamilians were the Polynesians and they were the ancestors of American Indians. They conquered Polynesia.

2. Tamilians constructed the Pyramids of Egypt and South America.

3. Tamilians and saivism ruled entire India. They were driven to South India by the Aryan invaders.

4. The Tamilians came from a continent called Kumari Kandam

In the old days these theories were rarely even published. I am quoting a couple of theories which were published in book form.

Now a days all these strange theories find a ready audience in news papers and the internet.

The paper quoted by the OP was not sponsored by the brits nor by dravidian parties.

Kindly do not link your tall speculative claims and trash-research by political interests, to proper academic research.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

We know the status of so called Academic research In India. Only those subjects which are politically correct are accepted for doctoral research. I have personal experience of this.

There are many papers published by the Universities in the U.S on Hinduism which would never be accepted for doctoral research in India.

 

[prasad1]

We know the status of so called Academic research In India. Only those subjects which are politically correct are accepted for doctoral research. I have personal experience of this.

There are many papers published by the Universities in the U.S on Hinduism which would never be accepted for doctoral research in India.

Caste system: an indigenous invention in South India? D. BALASUBRAMANIAN

This is not politically correct for Dravidian Parties. So it does not fit your definition.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Lot of research about Caste system which has ruined India. The system seems to have become the obsession of many people especially in Tamil Nadu and of course Tamil Brahmins.. This forum has had countless discussions regarding that.

<<Adivasis or tribal groups of Tamil Nadu well before the ‘Aryan’ migration.>>

Assumes that there was an Aryan migration and that there were Adivasis or Tribal groups in Tamil Nadu before that. These are the assumptions of Tamil Chauvinism.

 

[sangom]

I feel it will be difficult to prove conclusively that the vedas, vedic sanskrit and the similarities we find between the languages of the Zoroastrian sacred texts and the rigveda, all these happened in the natural course from out of a local, uniform and autochthonic population group which was originally spread throughout the Indian sub-continent or Bharatavarsha. During the BJP rule under the Prime Ministership of A.B. Vajpai, efforts were made to debunk and if possible, erase the Aryan-Dravidian concepts because BJP is generally seen by people all over India as a Brahmin-Baniya Party. That effort did succeed to some extent, I feel.

Tabras and Forums such as this one (TBF) obviously choose the BJP's line because, if Aryan invasion is accepted as a fact, then brahmins become outsiders to the country, so to say, because Brahmins represent the cream of what an Arya was supposed to mean and are even today most clannish as regards inter-marriage.

Though some people may have a selfish agenda in disproving any Aryan-Dravidian difference in the sub-continent, the two languages sanskrit and Tamil may themselves be proof enough of two distinct languages spoken here, I think. Viewed from this perspective and in the light of the archaeological finds from Salem, Coimbatore areas in recent years, which bear writings similar/identical to the Indus valley script, perhaps it may not be improper to conclude that the sanskrit-speaking people came at a later date to South India whereas the people using the IV script were here even from earlier times. (The Agastya myth is a likely supporting point in this regard.) Possibly these earlier inhabitants or even those who lived much earlier had caste divisions already and that is what the study in the OP refers to.

I have the gut feeling that this topic may give rise to very active discussion in this Forum and I look forward to the inputs from many of the learned members here. But to me, it looks as though this study will enable us to put all the blame for introducing our indigenous caste system to some long-lost ancestors of probably both the Aryans and the Dravidians.

 

[psnarasimhan]

Mr Sangom,
Thank you for your prompt reply. This is the way one should take part in the discussion.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

There are any number of research papers questioning the Aryan migration theory. Dismissing the whole thing as a BJP line is very much in line with the Congress line of the leftist historians who have been denigrating Hinduism and twisting history for centuries. Anything which questions the Leftist and so called secular (anti-Hindu) view is considered Hindutva.

Indus valley did not have a written language. Tall claims by Dravidian archeologists/historians to prove that the Indus valley script is Tamil are just theories. That is all. None of these claims have been accepted.

Sangom. Sorry. You are wrong.
Tamil Brahmins and Brahmins in general have been vociferous supporters of the Aryan migration theory. All of them claim to be Aryans. Check up any article on Wikipedia about any Brahmin community.

Of course I have written about these earlier.
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/share-your-knowledge/6079-indus-valley-script-tamil.html

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/share-...opriation-sanskrit-led-aryan-race-theory.html

 

[palindrome]

Lot of research about Caste system which has ruined India. The system seems to have become the obsession of many people especially in Tamil Nadu and of course Tamil Brahmins.. This forum has had countless discussions regarding that.

Assumes that there was an Aryan migration and that there were Adivasis or Tribal groups in Tamil Nadu before that. These are the assumptions of Tamil Chauvinism.

The paper quoted by the OP, of the Genographic Laboratory, has no need to kowtow to the beliefs of Aryanists, Dravidianists, Seculars, religionists.

<edited. Please be aware that personal attacks of any kind are not allowed and can lead to your account being suspended. - praveen>

The below is a small sampler of Brahmin Chauvinism:

Chicken has high niacin (steroid hormone generating, though promotes metabolism/DNA repair - to-NB genes!) ,

A quote by rprasad79: "This way our Brahmin community will get lost its identity as the offsprings of them will have the tag of Dravidians"

Saying abhivathaye involves reminding oneself about the satvic values his genes have picked up since a long time through generations.

A quote by suraju06: "So the Indian wisdom of restricting powerful and potentially uncontrollable situations by restricting knowledge to sAtvic genes will always be correct"

THIS GUY IS BRAHMIN !!!! Pure hearted, Sincere, Honest, Truthful, Faithful, Broad hearted, Broad Minded, Frank, Harmless, Long Sighted.

Folks, you think you are discussing amongst yourselves. Please be aware readership forms opinions based on your posts. To the public, the message is rather clear.

The aryanist view is
(a) to disprove anything which contradicts dharmshastra varna model of social organization
(b) to consider brahmins as aryans and tamil speakers as dravidians, including in marriage matters; yet claim dravidian parties invented the difference.
(c) brahmins are those who are endowed with the best qualities in the world.
(d) brahmins have "satvik genes" and are genetically different from non-brahmins.

Please take care.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

For completion sake, the dravidianist view should also be given:

a) Discrimination against brahmins is justice.
b) Birth-based classification did not exist in TN. If shown otherwise, it was good before brahmins arrived. Gone bad after.
c) Clashes between SCs and upper caste non-brahmins are not caste-clashes but borne out of economic considerations. If shown otherwise, then brahmins are responsible for such clashes.
d) பார்ப்பானொழிந்த பறையனொழிந்த தமிழ் சாதியானே தமிழன்.

 

[sangom]

The paper quoted by the OP, of the Genographic Laboratory, has no need to kowtow to the beliefs of Aryanists, Dravidianists, Seculars, religionists.

<edited. Please be aware that personal attacks of any kind are not allowed and can lead to your account being suspended. - praveen>

The below is a small sampler of Brahmin Chauvinism:



A quote by rprasad79: "This way our Brahmin community will get lost its identity as the offsprings of them will have the tag of Dravidians"



A quote by suraju06: "So the Indian wisdom of restricting powerful and potentially uncontrollable situations by restricting knowledge to sAtvic genes will always be correct"



Folks, you think you are discussing amongst yourselves. Please be aware readership forms opinions based on your posts. To the public, the message is rather clear.

The aryanist view is
(a) to disprove anything which contradicts dharmshastra varna model of social organization
(b) to consider brahmins as aryans and tamil speakers as dravidians, including in marriage matters; yet claim dravidian parties invented the difference.
(c) brahmins are those who are endowed with the best qualities in the world.
(d) brahmins have "satvik genes" and are genetically different from non-brahmins.

Please take care.

Palindrome,

I know you write your posts with the best of intentions and that you are not against anyone in particular. But I think you have missed the sarcasm in Shri Iyer's comments which you quote, as given below:

THIS GUY IS BRAHMIN !!!!

Pure hearted, Sincere, Honest, Truthful, Faithful, Broad hearted, Broad Minded, Frank, Harmless, Long Sighted.

I agree with much of the rest in your post. AFAI am concerned, what strikes me as most ingenious, is the fact that the Sudras who form the majority, were systematically kept away from all spiritual knowledge as also all kinds of sensitive knowledge too, if we go by Shri suraju's post which you cite above ("So the Indian wisdom of restricting powerful and potentially uncontrollable situations by restricting knowledge to sAtvic genes will always be correct"), but then the brahmins try to claim that it is only their sAtvik genes which alone can handle all such knowledge effectively (what is unsaid is, I believe, is "for the purpose of universal welfare".)

Had the knowledge been available equally to all and the people with non-sAtvik genes had made a mess of universal welfare (in the so-called Bharatavarsha) it was easy to accept this claim. But now historical development shows that this handling of all knowledge to sAtvik genes paved the way for continual foreign invasions, subjugation of different kinds, etc. Would it have been better for this country if those kinds of knowledge was made equally available to even those with purely rAjasic and tAmasic genes, right from the very beginning?

 

[sangom]

There are any number of research papers questioning the Aryan migration theory. Dismissing the whole thing as a BJP line is very much in line with the Congress line of the leftist historians who have been denigrating Hinduism and twisting history for centuries. Anything which questions the Leftist and so called secular (anti-Hindu) view is considered Hindutva.

Indus valley did not have a written language. Tall claims by Dravidian archeologists/historians to prove that the Indus valley script is Tamil are just theories. That is all. None of these claims have been accepted.

Sangom. Sorry. You are wrong.
Tamil Brahmins and Brahmins in general have been vociferous supporters of the Aryan migration theory. All of them claim to be Aryans. Check up any article on Wikipedia about any Brahmin community.

Of course I have written about these earlier.
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/share-your-knowledge/6079-indus-valley-script-tamil.html

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/share-...opriation-sanskrit-led-aryan-race-theory.html

Dear Shri iniyan,

I understand that our views on Aryans, Aryan migration into the present day Indian area, etc., do not agree. I have tried to give some of the reasons based on which I have formed my views in post #14 above.

"Ariyanam Vaejo" (aryāṇam vejo) or the "seedland of the Aryans" is a concept firmly rooted in the zoroastrian/iranian belief system. All aryans are considered by them to be constituting one race, which lived in the present day Arctic regions of the globe when the climate was much warmer there than today. I believe it is part of this so-called Aryas who brought the vedas, sanskrit etc., to this region through migration-cum-invasion.

Since there must have been human population existing even east of the Indus, these Aryans probably classified those indigenous people as Sudras or Dasyus or Panis, or even rakshas, daitya, asura, etc., according to the affinity and closeness which the migrant Aryans felt towards different groups of the indigenous people here. The niruktA definition of the word शूद्रः (śūdraḥ) as श्रुताद् दूरः शूद्रः या (śrutād dūraḥ śūdraḥ yā - one who is away from the vedas) corroborates my belief that essentially those who did not accept the vedas were categorized as śūdraḥ.

I agree that we are not sure, as of today, whether the IV script denotes full-fledged language; but the IV civilization definitely had a script of their own and used it for labelling even their consignments exported overseas. Similar symbols have been found on potsherds from some sites in Tamil Nadu also. We may, if we so want, conclude that the incoming Aryans from the NW of India displaced these IV script populace who migrated, in their turn, towards the southern parts of this sub-continent, but I prefer to limit my view to the presence of a people familiar with the IV symbols in most parts of India.

Though we may not be able to prove even genetically that there were two distinct groups of people, the two distinct languages — Tamil on the one hand and sanskrit and sanskrit-related languages of India on the other, is evidence that at least there existed a language very different from Sanskrit. It is also to be noted that, according to the linguistic experts, the Dravidian comprises of many different spoken languages/dialects from Brahui (Baluchisthan) to Paharia (Bihar, Jharkhand & W. Bengal) and Irula (Nilgiris) to Muria (Chattisgarh, Maharashtra, Odisha). I feel therefore, that the concept of a Dravidian people throughout most of India, once upon a time, cannot be far from the truth. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages)

I am not sure whether tabras will, today, support the AIT or even the concept of Aryans in India because it will surely go against their self-interests. It is necessary for them to take the public stance that they are all as much Tamils as any other group (even Pallan, Paraiyan, Pilaiyan and Vedan) of Tamilians though, personally they might like to assert their speciality or uniqueness, etc. I find the term "sAtveekam", "sAtveeki genes" etc., are being bandied about for this latter purpose mainly.
It is good of you to have announced your non-sAtveeki gotra credentials in such a situation.

I will look forward to your comments because I am sure they will be instructive, though differing from my pov.

 

[sarang]

Most of the religious literature in tamil is by non brahmins - azhwars, nayanmars included. Your argument will not hold water in any place.

Only veda reciting and teaching was restricted to brahmins. All other knowledge - language, mental and physical skills, aurved, jyotish, sculpture, music, dance , name any subject - were taught to all by brahmins and others. Brahmins were held in high respect by all - kings and all sections of society. How did the entire tamil population learnt ramayana, mahabharata, bhagavatam, vishnupurana etc? All knowledge except teaching/reciting vedas was available to all. And most important, there is not a single instance when anyone from the other varna was punished for learning or reciting vedas. Entire population of the village participated in the conduct of yagnas.

In modern parlance - it is like blaming modi and the bjp for the 2002 riots because they were ruling the state; whereas all the riots since independence with 100 times worse consequences have happened in congress regimes.

For a start you can verify how many azhwars and nayanmars were non brahmins and what is their contribution to the spiritual welfare of the dravidian community.

I agree with much of the rest in your post. AFAI am concerned, what strikes me as most ingenious, is the fact that the Sudras who form the majority, were systematically kept away from all spiritual knowledge as also all kinds of sensitive knowledge too, if we go by Shri suraju's post which you cite above ("So the Indian wisdom of restricting powerful and potentially uncontrollable situations by restricting knowledge to sAtvic genes will always be correct"), but then the brahmins try to claim that it is only their sAtvik genes which alone can handle all such knowledge effectively (what is unsaid is, I believe, is "for the purpose of universal welfare".)

Had the knowledge been available equally to all and the people with non-sAtvik genes had made a mess of universal welfare (in the so-called Bharatavarsha) it was easy to accept this claim. But now historical development shows that this handling of all knowledge to sAtvik genes paved the way for continual foreign invasions, subjugation of different kinds, etc. Would it have been better for this country if those kinds of knowledge was made equally available to even those with purely rAjasic and tAmasic genes, right from the very beginning?

 

[sarang]

For a start tambrams, why all bharatavasis, must put faith in the primary data - our vast and ancient literature and put this knowledge in one pan of the balance; we can always put the new theories as and when they appear in the horizon and compare without rejecting the former. The new theories change every day, have a high degree of bias, are speculative, and in many cases arrived at by fudging the data.

Whether it is the dating of ramayanam/ mahabharatm or the life and extent of the universe, derived conclusions are always opinions. Most of the scientists accept this, but only the protagonists yell as absolute truths despite all of them having a half life period of a few months or years.

DNA studies will go in the same direction as 'god particle'; there is no difference when one goes into finer states of matter; all matter is built from this single atishushma particle.

I am not sure whether tabras will, today, support the AIT or even the concept of Aryans in India because it will surely go against their self-interests. It is necessary for them to take the public stance that they are all as much Tamils as any other group (even Pallan, Paraiyan, Pilaiyan and Vedan) of Tamilians though, personally they might like to assert their speciality or uniqueness, etc. I find the term "sAtveekam", "sAtveeki genes" etc., are being bandied about for this latter purpose mainly.
It is good of you to have announced your non-sAtveeki gotra credentials in such a situation.

I will look forward to your comments because I am sure they will be instructive, though differing from my pov.

 

[sangom]

Most of the religious literature in tamil is by non brahmins - azhwars, nayanmars included. Your argument will not hold water in any place.

Only veda reciting and teaching was restricted to brahmins. All other knowledge - language, mental and physical skills, aurved, jyotish, sculpture, music, dance , name any subject - were taught to all by brahmins and others. Brahmins were held in high respect by all - kings and all sections of society. How did the entire tamil population learnt ramayana, mahabharata, bhagavatam, vishnupurana etc? All knowledge except teaching/reciting vedas was available to all. And most important, there is not a single instance when anyone from the other varna was punished for learning or reciting vedas. Entire population of the village participated in the conduct of yagnas.

In modern parlance - it is like blaming modi and the bjp for the 2002 riots because they were ruling the state; whereas all the riots since independence with 100 times worse consequences have happened in congress regimes.

For a start you can verify how many azhwars and nayanmars were non brahmins and what is their contribution to the spiritual welfare of the dravidian community.

I was commenting with particular reference to Shri suraju's commenst which was quoted by Palindrome. (("So the Indian wisdom of restricting powerful and potentially uncontrollable situations by restricting knowledge to sAtvic genes will always be correct") Hence, in effect you are negating these observations.

As regards azhvars and nayanmars, Shri Nara used to repeatedly write in his posts that the caste equality envisaged by some of the NB azhvars had been completely forgotten and the caste exclusivity has overpowered VA also. He was putting this question time and again, I think, to suraju 06. I will have to search for it in the archives.

The question here is not B vs NB, because the Dharmasastras recommended all knowledge to the three higher castes or dwijas. Hence covering up the track by projecting the NBs as a whole will not work. The more pertinent issue to be considered is how many nayanmars/azhvars belonged to the Sudra and the Panchama categories and what are their contributions to the religious literature, and so on. Have you anything to post on this topic?

Can we have a comparison between the religious literature output from all the NB azhvars/nayanars and those from the brahmin Acharyas in both sanskrit and Tamil? Why is it that even now the vaishnava temples including tirupathi use only sanskrit mantras for their poojas and Tamil mantras are not there?

You say, "Brahmins were held in high respect by all - kings and all sections of society." But many members here have in the past, repeatedly claimed that the brahmins had always been a meek and very poor lot who were forced to write out the Dharmasastras in such a way that the kshatriyas and vaisyas could go on exploiting the sudras and the panchamas and also that this is what is happening even now in Tamil Nadu where the powerful NB castes are still committing atrocities on the SC/ST when they try to go out of the control of the former. What then is your stand on this?

"Entire population of the village participated in the conduct of yagnas."
Is it possible to give any evidence in support of this from anciient texts, epigraphies, palm leaf manuscripts etc.? What happened to the prohibition that a Sudra should not even hear the vedas being recited, and if such a sin happens, molten lead has to be poured into the ears of such a sudra who should be made completely deaf? Do you have any instance of Sudras hearing the vedic mantras being chanted in any yagna of historical times? If so, pl. give details.

"How did the entire tamil population learnt ramayana, mahabharata, bhagavatam, vishnupurana etc?"
Can you give some documentary evidence that the sudras & panchamas (roughly the SCs & STs of today) were in general familiar with the sanskrit versiona of the epics and puranas? Can we have any evidence that the lowest castes (the Pallans and Paraiyans) of the present day have in general a good knowledge of the epics and puranas other than what little smatterings they may be knowing from cinemas and other sources like Villiputhurar bharatam, kambaramayanam etc., presented to them thru therukkoothu, dramas and other art forms? For example do you think srimadbhagavatham is familiar to most of the lower castes who belong to the SC/ST category?

For a start you can verify how many azhwars and nayanmars were non brahmins and what is their contribution to the spiritual welfare of the dravidian community.

I feel that the nayanmars from the lowest castes (thiruneelakantar-potter:enadinatha nayanar-shanar:kannappa nayanar-hunter:anaya nayanar-cowherd or Ayan:thirunalaippovar nayanar-paraiah:kalikamba nayanar-fisherman and a few more) have not contributed anything to the saivite literature; the pillars of saivism are appar (ruler or vaisya caste), sundarar and manickavachagar (both brahmins) and the entire Thevaarams are their works. In vaishnava literature we find larger contributions by Nammalvar (vellala), thirumangai alvar(tribal) etc. But the vital question is does today's vaishnavism (visishtadvaita or dvaitha) grant any status to people from the lowest castes? I think the honest answer is a big NO and it is the brahmins (called Iyengars of thenkalai & vadagali varieties) who alone are the Acharyas and who alone have the sway on those societies. The lowest castes do not figure at all in the system today. Hence your attempt to highlight the past contributions by some people belonging to the NB high castes as also the real sudras and untouchables, is a very poor defence. Let us talk truth.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sangom,

I do not understand the purport of your message.

The Tamilians were the first to have religious literature in a regional language. In 800 A.D. The Saiva/Vaishnava Bhakthi movement included non-Brahmins. Non-Brahmins were accepted as religious teachers. The Tamil Brahmins were part of the movement.

It took the rest of India more than 500 years after that even to think of this kind of revolution. Even then the Bhakthi movements of North India and Maharashtra were mostly anti-Brahmin. The movement was opposed by the Brahmins and they never played an active role.

I am proud to be a Tamil Brahmin. You know why? We were a part of the Religious revolution called the Bhakthi movement. The rest of India took hundreds of years to catch up with us.

The leftist historians were unhappy with the Tamil Bhakthi movement because it was not anti-Brahmin. Because it was not anti-temple worship. You can always say it did not go far enough.

Your message wants to take away the credit of the revolution from the Tamil Brahmins. It is belittling the revolution. It belittles the Nayanmars and Azhvars. May be you did not mean it, but that is how it comes out.

Tamil Brahmins were active participants of the religious revolution. The Bhakthi movement which could be called the French revolution of Hinduism.

BTW there is worship in Tamil in Thirupathi temple. It is done during Thomala Seva.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I am not sure whether tabras will, today, support the AIT or even the concept of Aryans in India because it will surely go against their self-interests. It is necessary for them to take the public stance that they are all as much Tamils as any other group (even Pallan, Paraiyan, Pilaiyan and Vedan) of Tamilians though, personally they might like to assert their speciality or uniqueness, etc.

I think Sangom is painting only one side of the picture. As a corollary, it can be said that the NBs support the AIT out of the same selfish interests as the theory needs to be upheld for them to justify discrimination against brahmins. It is on this basis - that they were following a different peaceful social model and that the violent varna model came from outsiders (i.e. brahmins), they can absolve themselves from any blame for the caste clashes that happen among themselves even today. History, if bent properly, is a tool to shift the blame on brahmins.

 

[ks_]

Namaste,

The words Caste and Aryan caught my attention. I haven't gone through all the postings in this thread .
Personally to me it is quite disappointing that even today there are people believing in Aryan race etc. There is enough evidence to prove that Aryan Invasion Theory is indeed a fake theory propagated by the British. Perhaps, the skin colour difference could be the only reason why more people from south tend to believe in aryans etc.

KS

 

[P.R.RADHAKRISHNAN]

Dear Sri Sangom,

It was not an Aryan Invasion. As others came they also came to live. The only difference is that while others especially Dravidians worshiped Phallus in Yoni, as Lord Shiva before ARYAN tribes came to India, these Aryan tribes felt bad about it and gave the name to the Only God as VISHNU and degraded Lord Shiva as Rudra. The present Rudra and Chamaka are the handiwork of Aryan Tribes. Adi Shankara was an aryan . Natuarally. he will say Lord Narayana is the foremost God. In the sandhya Vandana you might have noticed this. If not I give herein ( SARVA DEVA NAMASKARA KESHAVAM PRATHI GACHCHATHI). I believe in UPANASHADS which are Appendix to to Vedas. In that it is said EKO DEVA=GOD IS ONLY ONE. I believe that this only GOD may be called by any name. If Adi Shankara was born in KALADI it was by the blessing of LORD SHIVA called as VADAKUUNATHAN, (VRUSHABHAACHALESHWARAR) He professed Advaitha which was in existence ,on the request of his GURU NARAYANA WHO WAS TAUGHT BY GAUDA . Hence Advaita siddantha was only propagated by Adi Shankara to counter act the growth of BUDDISM,which became a threat to HINDUISM.IN this aspect . Kindly go through my BLOGS in WORD PRESS, YAHOO and IN GOOGLE.

Regards and Namaskarams,

P.R.RADHAKRISHNAN

 

[palindrome]

Both, Aryanists and Dravidianists, have caused immense obstacles to collective progress as a nation. It can get amusing to read the Aryanist view of what Dravidianists think, and vice-versa. Both produce twisted versions to substantiate their own claims.

Nobody claims there was a peaceful tribal period. Not even sangam period literature does (full of wars between the pandyas, cholas, cheras). Before the varna model came, all tribes fought for social control. The varna model, a late entrant into this scene, merely helped people of a certain culture, ie., dvijas, to positions of social power; with laws to keep their enemies subjugated as shudras.

Also, put simply, it made more sense for people of a clan, back then, to organize themselves into numerous occupations based on ability. Which is what all tribes did. A class system (varna system) is a misfit in the scenario; especially when it tries to represent too many occupations, diverse cultures, myriad peoples, into just 4 classes and 3 gunas.

A class system so far survived with a feudal system and autocracy (where 'hindu' kings and chieftains following dharmashastra laws ruled). This class system cannot fit in with democracy (where a leader of any culture is elected) and secularism (where governance is free of religion and religious laws). The continued relevance for varna system, sought by brahmins and self-claimed 'upper castes' under the term 'hindutva', is what moderates oppose.

 

[biswa]

The strange paradox is that with the current backlash from the "lower" castes in terms of reservations etc., you would expect that the "upper" castes would push for the abolition of the caste system. Strangely that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[kunjuppu]

The strange paradox is that with the current backlash from the "lower" castes in terms of reservations etc., you would expect that the "upper" castes would push for the abolition of the caste system. Strangely that doesn't seem to be the case.

biswa,

the so called lower castes, have racial memories of glory. no one was a 'scheduled' a few centuries ago. being conquered was equivalent to slavery, and the tamil tribes were no better, no worse, than the mores of those days.

at the dawn of the 20th century, the tamil brahmins, with the newly acquired power through education, sealed their fate, by openly claiming themselves as 'aryans', and the only linguistic group in india, termed the rest of the castes as NB. this they effectively sold to the british overlords, and it is only in tamil nadu the hindus are divided thus.

... in a historic sense, it is only fair that the rest of the tamil tribes elevate themselves to the level of a fair share of the cake. after all, tambrams, who throughout the centuries, by and large, were at the mercy of the castes for their susbsistence, for a brief period in history, could afford to dance only because the british wanted clerks versed in the english language, to churn the machinery of the Raj.

we soon bit the hand that fed us, never realizing, that with the exit of the british, much as we despise them, our privileges came to nought.

history has a way of righting the wrongs, i think. though some wrongs, i do not know, how they could be righted. like the Holocaust. could the jews ever be righted. or what wrongs did the jews commit, that historically their 'wrongs' could be vindicted?

i dont know.

ps.. even the newly arrived group to the tamil tribedom - the catholics have a miniature racial memory. when P.G.Panneerdas of the VGP fame, died suddenly in his prime, it is said, that his death was a punishment from jesus himself, because vgp promoted the t.v. series ramayana. dont know if you give credibility to this, but again, in all the catholic churches of tamil nadu, masses were said in penance, and catholics vowed not to watch ramayana.

such is the extremes of faith in india. good or bad. so be it. thaththaasthu.