Caste system: an indigenous invention in South India? D. BALASUBRAMANIAN

[P.R.RADHAKRISHNAN]

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Dear Sir,

I deffer from your views. At that time the groups were small. And this bifurcation was required. But now we have grown and we are a mixture of Aryans and Dravidians. Further the bifurcation was made as per the THRIGUNAS which are SATHVIC, RAJAS and THAMAS. But later on we men became more possessive and wanted our children also should be from our caste and changed that the caste system as if it is compulsory that a brahmin's son to become a brahmin, a Chettiars's son to be in chettiar caste only, a Nair's son to be called as NAIR only . Here we committed a mistake. I blame our ancestors for this biggest crime against HINDUISM. We can change the customs of brahmins which are obsolete only by discussions.

Regards and Namaskarams,
P.R. RADHAKRISHNAN

 

[palindrome]

ps.. even the newly arrived group to the tamil tribedom - the catholics have a miniature racial memory. when P.G.Panneerdas of the VGP fame, died suddenly in his prime, it is said, that his death was a punishment from jesus himself, because vgp promoted the t.v. series ramayana. dont know if you give credibility to this, but again, in all the catholic churches of tamil nadu, masses were said in penance, and catholics vowed not to watch ramayana.

such is the extremes of faith in india. good or bad. so be it. thaththaasthu.

Hope Jesus forgives such vindictive people. Wonder what they get by converting competition into religion, or by differentiating between "your god" versus "my god". All religions have such elements. Reminds me of some muslim friends back in India who believed neil armstrong never went to the moon..they believed Allah lives in the moon, and no human can go there whilst still alive. To them, all whites are crooks, plant lies in the media and make fake videos. A 'White' is anyone who is white in color (including japanese) and is a non-muslim. Such is the strange hold of religion on the mind.

Years later, I had a Javanese lady to help around the house. A very nice person. Since no human is perfect anyways, she had some strange beliefs. One, that only muslims are pure and good. The rest are not blessed enough to be muslims (bcoz they are affected by jins according to her). She stayed with us for 3+ years and left only when we left. Before she left i asked her, "i am not a muslim, am i good or bad". She hugged me and burst into tears saying she is going to miss me and the kids.

Religion and religious beliefs do strange things to people. That way, i like what the Kulashekaras represent. Different religions yet one family. One kulashekhara was a vaishnava alwar, another a shaiva nayanmar, and another a muslim.

 

[palindrome]

The strange paradox is that with the current backlash from the "lower" castes in terms of reservations etc., you would expect that the "upper" castes would push for the abolition of the caste system. Strangely that doesn't seem to be the case.

Those classed backward get benefits. Its the reverse of dvija rule books. So now they won't let it go so easily. Plus, Politicians do everything in their capacity to strengthen caste identities, to create a vote bank for themselves. The PMK is full of suck jokers. The have many followers no better than suckers. Now caste is a political issue.

Post-colonial events must have made the upper castes reactionary; such that they want to retain caste identities yet want reservations for themselves. No idea how all this will end. Irrespective of lower or upper, the young seem to have better sense of reasoning. Over time, naturally, due to changing ways of living, the current caste identities will hold no meaning to anyone. But that may happen only 20-30 years later IMO. Meantime, hope programmes like neeya naana deal more with caste, so people feel more encouraged to give up caste.

 

[sangom]

This is in continuation of my post # 18 above. Shri Nara's query was reagrding Swami Periyavachchan Pillai's interpretation of தொழுமின் நீர்.

உங்களுடைய வித்யாவ்ருத்தங்களும், ஜன்ம உத்கர்ஷங்களும் மத ஹேதுவாகையன்றியே தம

ஹேதுவென்றிருக்கும் நீங்கள் அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள்.... நீங்கள் அவர்களை ஆராதியுங்கோள்...ஸ்வரூப

ப்ராப்தமான நீச பாவமானது அவர்களுக்கு ஸ்வரூப ஸித்தம். உங்களுக்கு துர்மாநத்தாலே துஷ்கரம். அவர்களை

தொழவே உங்கள் ஸம்ஸார பீஜமான துர்மானம் போம்.

மதம் = அடக்கமின்மை
தமம் = அடக்கம்
ஹேது = காரணம்
துர்மானம் = அஹங்கரம்
துஷ்கரம் = அரிது

(http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/3182-sri-vaishnavam-2.html#post32782)

I doubt very much whether Vaishnavam (or, for that matter, even brahmins in general, will agree to abide by this advice.

Shri Nachinarkkiniyan, post # 19.

Sir,

I have not said anything disparaging about Nayanmars or Alvars. What I said was that even according to time-honoured trditions, the three dwija castes (varnas, if you so like) were allowed to learn and recite the vedas, Hence it was only the fourth caste (i.e., Sudras) and the panchamas or untouchables who did not have access to the mainstream vedic religion. Now, among the 63 Nayanmars, only a few who can be counted by fingers belonged to these two categories and to the best of my knowledge these handful of Nayanmars have not composed any part of the thevAram or thiruvAchakam. (You can correct me if I am wrong.) Even the popular account about thirunALaippovAr nAyanAr was composed by a brahmin and it became more well-known after the dravidianists came up with a satirical called "kinthanAr" and put it in therukkUtthu and cinema forms for wide knowledge/advertisement.

I find that you are claiming the full credit for the Bhakti movement for the Tamil Brahmins; I am also saying the same thing but pointing out that the non-brahmin, especially the shudras and the untouchables did not play any great role though, as a matter of mere tokenism and in this way some people belonging to the two last referred categories have been projected as Nayanmars.

The position in the vaishnava sampradayam is better since the high caste NB Alvars have contributed the lion's share of their Tamil religious literature, but vaishnavas today will not be prepared to abide by some of the casteless prescriptions like the one by Swami Periyavachchan Pillai's interpretation of தொழுமின் நீர்.

Thank you!

 

[sangom]

The strange paradox is that with the current backlash from the "lower" castes in terms of reservations etc., you would expect that the "upper" castes would push for the abolition of the caste system. Strangely that doesn't seem to be the case.

Dear Shri Biswa,

I believe that in TN, the "upper" NB castes were treated almost on apr with the lower and lowest classes by the brahmins who were the most pre-eminent caste (varna) for some decades at least when the Tamil Brahmins were enjoying the patronage of the Britishers who were the overlords in India till 1947. The Dravida movement took shape towards the end of this golden era for the brahmins and it is history now that the Dravidian movement, with the help of the constitutional provisions for special treatment of SCs, STs, OBCs etc., have been able to completely marginalize the brahmins. The upper caste NBs want now to enjoy the eminence, or the top-most step in the caste ladder since the erstwhile occupants of that rung, viz., the brahmins, have been completely ousted from there. Hence they are trying to establish their superiority and that, in today's conditions, cannot be done with the help of scriptures and beliefs and religious indoctrination, etc., as the brahmins could do in an earlier age. Hence the upper caste NBs are employing their money power, physical might and political clout to achieve their end.

This has given a very convenient excuse for the brahmins to shift all the blames, including the entire historical ones, of the caste system and its pernicious effects on to the upper castes. This is my understanding of the situation, please.

 

[sangom]

Namaste,

The words Caste and Aryan caught my attention. I haven't gone through all the postings in this thread .
Personally to me it is quite disappointing that even today there are people believing in Aryan race etc. There is enough evidence to prove that Aryan Invasion Theory is indeed a fake theory propagated by the British. Perhaps, the skin colour difference could be the only reason why more people from south tend to believe in aryans etc.

KS

Dear Sri Sangom,

It was not an Aryan Invasion. As others came they also came to live. The only difference is that while others especially Dravidians worshiped Phallus in Yoni, as Lord Shiva before ARYAN tribes came to India, these Aryan tribes felt bad about it and gave the name to the Only God as VISHNU and degraded Lord Shiva as Rudra. The present Rudra and Chamaka are the handiwork of Aryan Tribes. Adi Shankara was an aryan . Natuarally. he will say Lord Narayana is the foremost God. In the sandhya Vandana you might have noticed this. If not I give herein ( SARVA DEVA NAMASKARA KESHAVAM PRATHI GACHCHATHI). I believe in UPANASHADS which are Appendix to to Vedas. In that it is said EKO DEVA=GOD IS ONLY ONE. I believe that this only GOD may be called by any name. If Adi Shankara was born in KALADI it was by the blessing of LORD SHIVA called as VADAKUUNATHAN, (VRUSHABHAACHALESHWARAR) He professed Advaitha which was in existence ,on the request of his GURU NARAYANA WHO WAS TAUGHT BY GAUDA . Hence Advaita siddantha was only propagated by Adi Shankara to counter act the growth of BUDDISM,which became a threat to HINDUISM.IN this aspect . Kindly go through my BLOGS in WORD PRESS, YAHOO and IN GOOGLE.

Regards and Namaskarams,

P.R.RADHAKRISHNAN

Shri ks_ ji, Shri Radhakrishnan ji,

I have not talked about any Aryan Invasion like the "Mughal Invasion" or the "Monghol Conquests". I said only that a new kind of people who had very close association with the ancestors of the Zoroashtrians, came into the Indo-gangetic plane thru' the NW and these new paople who called themselves as "Aryans" might have settled down peacefully in some spots or areas while there might have been skirmishes to battles in the case of some other locations/areas. Hence we are not talking about any Aryan Invasion as such, but only about an Aryan Influx if that is agreeable to you.

Shri Radhakrishnan,

I am under the impression that Govinda bhagavatpada was the guru of Shankara. The name Narayana is news to me. Do you have any supporting references pl.?

I agree that Shankara was born in the Namboodiri caste and the Namboodiris are a very reclusive group which could have maintained its genetic purity to some extent, but I am doubtful whether the original Aryans could have maintained their genetic purity all through the long migration from AryAvarta into the Kerala region (some research shows the Namboodiris took a circuitous route through AP and TN to cross the western ghats and come into the Kerala region)?

Will you kindly give the urls for your different blog sites pl.?

 

[sarang]

Sevi vazhi seidi or are there any press reports or articles in catholic magazines supporting this. Will appreciate any references. I could not locate any.

i dont know.

ps.. even the newly arrived group to the tamil tribedom - the catholics have a miniature racial memory. when P.G.Panneerdas of the VGP fame, died suddenly in his prime, it is said, that his death was a punishment from jesus himself, because vgp promoted the t.v. series ramayana. dont know if you give credibility to this, but again, in all the catholic churches of tamil nadu, masses were said in penance, and catholics vowed not to watch ramayana.

such is the extremes of faith in india. good or bad. so be it. thaththaasthu.

 

[sarang]

"I believe" obviates the need for scrutiny.

Reservation was applicable only to SC and ST in the constitution; others were in a race to call themselves as backward and join the dole. Even president narayanan (and a supreme court judge) calls himself as backward. In every state in India, some communities are rich and powerful; some designated as backward are forward in others. Brahmins are not among the rich or powerful set.

This wikileak report may tickle you.

Brahmin babus returned to dominate TN in 1976: WikiLeaks cable

"A cable titled ‘Political and Caste Pressures in TN’ dated July 14, 1976, said the then Rajya Sabha Vice Chairman Godley Murahari had told a senior US diplomat that there was an increasing “Brahmin Flavour” to State government under President’s rule. Murahari, a Congress leader, had made the observation on July 2, 1976, five months after the Karunanidhi Government was dismissed.

"Murahari claimed that as a result of transfers and reshuffling of IAS personnel 12 of the 14 Government Secretaries and 80% of district Collectors were Brahmins. He felt Subramaniam was “consciously working in this direction”
Brahmin babus returned to dominate TN in 1976: WikiLeaks cable - The New Indian Express

Dear Shri Biswa,

I believe that in TN, the "upper" NB castes were treated almost on apr with the lower and lowest classes by the brahmins who were the most pre-eminent caste (varna) for some decades at least when the Tamil Brahmins were enjoying the patronage of the Britishers who were the overlords in India till 1947. The Dravida movement took shape towards the end of this golden era for the brahmins and it is history now that the Dravidian movement, with the help of the constitutional provisions for special treatment of SCs, STs, OBCs etc., have been able to completely marginalize the brahmins. The upper caste NBs want now to enjoy the eminence, or the top-most step in the caste ladder since the erstwhile occupants of that rung, viz., the brahmins, have been completely ousted from there. Hence they are trying to establish their superiority and that, in today's conditions, cannot be done with the help of scriptures and beliefs and religious indoctrination, etc., as the brahmins could do in an earlier age. Hence the upper caste NBs are employing their money power, physical might and political clout to achieve their end.

This has given a very convenient excuse for the brahmins to shift all the blames, including the entire historical ones, of the caste system and its pernicious effects on to the upper castes. This is my understanding of the situation, please.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The strange paradox is that with the current backlash from the "lower" castes in terms of reservations etc., you would expect that the "upper" castes would push for the abolition of the caste system. Strangely that doesn't seem to be the case.

By the same logic, it should not surprise anyone if the lower castes, who are beneficiaries of the reservations etc, strive to keep the caste system intact. Whether it is a feudal system or democratic system, the governing principle is still "might is right". That this "might" was, in the past, determined by the power of sword but, at present, determined by the strength of numbers is only a notional difference.

 

[sangom]

"I believe" obviates the need for scrutiny.

Reservation was applicable only to SC and ST in the constitution; others were in a race to call themselves as backward and join the dole. Even president narayanan (and a supreme court judge) calls himself as backward. In every state in India, some communities are rich and powerful; some designated as backward are forward in others. Brahmins are not among the rich or powerful set.

This wikileak report may tickle you.

Brahmin babus returned to dominate TN in 1976: WikiLeaks cable

"A cable titled ‘Political and Caste Pressures in TN’ dated July 14, 1976, said the then Rajya Sabha Vice Chairman Godley Murahari had told a senior US diplomat that there was an increasing “Brahmin Flavour” to State government under President’s rule. Murahari, a Congress leader, had made the observation on July 2, 1976, five months after the Karunanidhi Government was dismissed.

"Murahari claimed that as a result of transfers and reshuffling of IAS personnel 12 of the 14 Government Secretaries and 80% of district Collectors were Brahmins. He felt Subramaniam was “consciously working in this direction”
Brahmin babus returned to dominate TN in 1976: WikiLeaks cable - The New Indian Express

My "I believe" is to indicate that what follows is the cumulative essence of all that I have read, heard and have been told by reliable persons or sources over very many years that it will be impossible for me to produce supporting evidences. But such evidences in support of whatever I state will be there if some one wants to prove me wrong or to prove me right, as he/she may wish.

You want to prove me wrong, going by the usual nature of your responses to mine, and probably you could not get anything from the usual easy source viz., wiki, and so you are trying this barb, I feel.

It is common knowledge that reservation was extended to OBCs and probably, now, to the minorities also (like Andhra, I believe, once again). The strange thing is that the tabras, going by some of the members' views here in this Forum, refuse to see the world and its realities like what the rest of the population does. President narayanan and one CJ of the Supreme court, may be rich, but both belonged, till the Constitution, to the untouchable category. Both benefitted from the inclusive education policies of the rulers of Travancore and, because of their ability to study, both came to occupy the high positions. The Paravan caste (to which both Shri narayanan & Shri Balakrishnan belonged) is not a "powerful" caste in Kerala even today. (It is the Ezhavas who are "powerful" here, but I believe they are only OBCs; paravars of TN have now been reclassified as MBC.)

Even during the 1970's there was a general impression among the powerful political classes that brahmin officers would provide the best facade for their (corrupt) rule and even in Kerala it was no different. Whether the brahmin officers rose to their expectation is, however, not widely known.

C. Subramaniam was generally known as anti-brahmin in his attitude. So, it is surprising how the wikileaks says that he was working for brahminising the President's rule in TN.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

A class system so far survived with a feudal system and autocracy (where 'hindu' kings and chieftains following dharmashastra laws ruled). This class system cannot fit in with democracy (where a leader of any culture is elected) and secularism (where governance is free of religion and religious laws). The continued relevance for varna system, sought by brahmins and self-claimed 'upper castes' under the term 'hindutva', is what moderates oppose.

Most brahmins are mainly interested in finding how their tradional nityakarmas are still relevant in this changing world. That is all. That they seek to revive the varna system is not true in my opinion. Many other castes too strive to retain atleast a certain portion of their traditional mores and culture.

The support to "hindutva" parties from brahmins and upper castes today has little to do with varna system. Rather, the political alliance is formed because the non-hindutva parties are creating another set of priveleged classes - the minorities. There are caste-based priveleges on one hand that benefits lower castes and religion-based priveleges on the other hand that benefits non-hindus. The brahmins and hindu upper castes are left out of both. The creation of this new priveleged class not only takes away resources available to the general class but also makes it difficult to resist against this differential treatment as more and more people are taken away from the general class. The political support to hindutva parties is to limit the extent of religion-based priveleges and to limit the shrinking of general class.

As one can see, the lower castes and non-hindu minorities have the same objective - to retain their priveleged status, whereas the brahmins and upper castes are in the opposite camp. Therefore this has created a mirage that the brahmins and upper castes are seeking to overthrow secular governance and install a communal govt. That "hindutva" parties are fanatical and those who oppose it are moderates are just political statements. There is not much truth to them.

 

[sangom]

Most brahmins are mainly interested in finding how their tradional nityakarmas are still relevant in this changing world. That is all. That they seek to revive the varna system is not true in my opinion. Many other castes too strive to retain atleast a certain portion of their traditional mores and culture.

The support to "hindutva" parties from brahmins and upper castes today has little to do with varna system. Rather, the political alliance is formed because the non-hindutva parties are creating another set of priveleged classes - the minorities. There are caste-based priveleges on one hand that benefits lower castes and religion-based priveleges on the other hand that benefits non-hindus. The brahmins and hindu upper castes are left out of both. The creation of this new priveleged class not only takes away resources available to the general class but also makes it difficult to resist against this differential treatment as more and more people are taken away from the general class. The political support to hindutva parties is to limit the extent of religion-based priveleges and to limit the shrinking of general class.

As one can see, the lower castes and non-hindu minorities have the same objective - to retain their priveleged status, whereas the brahmins and upper castes are in the opposite camp. Therefore this has created a mirage that the brahmins and upper castes are seeking to overthrow secular governance and install a communal govt. That "hindutva" parties are fanatical and those who oppose it are moderates are just political statements. There is not much truth to them.

Dear Shri KB,

I have one doubt in regard to your above post.

From the experience in TN as also elsewhere, it is now somewhat clear that the uppercaste NB hindus have no love lost for the brahmins. The hindutva Party (viz., the BJP) is also not a pro-brahmin outfit nor is the RSS. The support of brahmins to these parties is thus foolish, I will say. The one possible solution possibly is Mayawati has reportedly tried in UP and succeded - joining both the dalits and the brahmins to counter the powerful yadavas, a middle of the rung hindu caste.

Though some of our members beat their chest saying that personally they keep excellent relations with all castes including the Dalits, the million dollar question is whether the tabras are ready and have the zeal and initiative to do a "Mayawati" in TN? Also, whether this can be repeated at the All India level by the All India Brahmin Federation?

 

[palindrome]

My "I believe" is to indicate that what follows is the cumulative essence of all that I have read, heard and have been told by reliable persons or sources over very many years that it will be impossible for me to produce supporting evidences. But such evidences in support of whatever I state will be there if some one wants to prove me wrong or to prove me right, as he/she may wish.

You want to prove me wrong, going by the usual nature of your responses to mine, and probably you could not get anything from the usual easy source viz., wiki, and so you are trying this barb, I feel.

It is common knowledge that reservation was extended to OBCs and probably, now, to the minorities also (like Andhra, I believe, once again). The strange thing is that the tabras, going by some of the members' views here in this Forum, refuse to see the world and its realities like what the rest of the population does. President narayanan and one CJ of the Supreme court, may be rich, but both belonged, till the Constitution, to the untouchable category. Both benefitted from the inclusive education policies of the rulers of Travancore and, because of their ability to study, both came to occupy the high positions. The Paravan caste (to which both Shri narayanan & Shri Balakrishnan belonged) is not a "powerful" caste in Kerala even today. (It is the Ezhavas who are "powerful" here, but I believe they are only OBCs; paravars of TN have now been reclassified as MBC.)

Even during the 1970's there was a general impression among the powerful political classes that brahmin officers would provide the best facade for their (corrupt) rule and even in Kerala it was no different. Whether the brahmin officers rose to their expectation is, however, not widely known.

C. Subramaniam was generally known as anti-brahmin in his attitude. So, it is surprising how the wikileaks says that he was working for brahminising the President's rule in TN.

President Narayanan and Chief Justice (CJ) Balakrishnan came from poor families. President Narayanan was born in a hut. CJ Balakrishnan was no better off, his father was just a matriculate. Under the brahmin varna system, both these people cud not even have studied, or got any opportunity to improve their lives, let alone occupy apex offices.

Reg C.Subramanian, well, how to trust....Anyways, what is you definition of anti-brahmin?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Dear Shri KB,

I have one doubt in regard to your above post.

From the experience in TN as also elsewhere, it is now somewhat clear that the uppercaste NB hindus have no love lost for the brahmins. The hindutva Party (viz., the BJP) is also not a pro-brahmin outfit nor is the RSS. The support of brahmins to these parties is thus foolish, I will say. The one possible solution possibly is Mayawati has reportedly tried in UP and succeded - joining both the dalits and the brahmins to counter the powerful yadavas, a middle of the rung hindu caste.

Though some of our members beat their chest saying that personally they keep excellent relations with all castes including the Dalits, the million dollar question is whether the tabras are ready and have the zeal and initiative to do a "Mayawati" in TN? Also, whether this can be repeated at the All India level by the All India Brahmin Federation?

Dear Sangom,

Perhaps my earlier post was not very clear. My opinion is that the alliance between brahmins and other "upper" castes is not because of caste affinity or because of their supposed clamor for varna system but because of the fact that they both belong to the general class and the opportunties/resources available to them are being squeezed by provisions favorable to both "lower" castes and minorities, who are the priveleged classes today. That is, the equation is the general class alliance on one side vs the backward classes and minorities on the other side. Given this background, I feel it will be difficult for the brahmins and SCs to form an alliance. The alliance in UP is an exception IMO, and even here it was possible because Mayavathi brought the poor brahmins also under the reservation net.

The situation in TN is different from many other states because of the huge percentage of population that is classified as backward in TN. Here, an alliance among castes that come under general class would not alter the equations significantly. In addition, the dravidian movement effectively isolated the brahmins. This is not the case in many other states.

I agree with your observations regarding hindutva. The hindutva ONLY opposes special provisions to minorities. They would not dare question the anomalies that one sees in classification of backward classes. Their stance, IMO, is opportunistic. Yet, the general class has no other option but to support hindutva in this matter.

 

[palindrome]

Shri ks_ ji, Shri Radhakrishnan ji,

I have not talked about any Aryan Invasion like the "Mughal Invasion" or the "Monghol Conquests". I said only that a new kind of people who had very close association with the ancestors of the Zoroashtrians, came into the Indo-gangetic plane thru' the NW and these new paople who called themselves as "Aryans" might have settled down peacefully in some spots or areas while there might have been skirmishes to battles in the case of some other locations/areas. Hence we are not talking about any Aryan Invasion as such, but only about an Aryan Influx if that is agreeable to you.

Shri Radhakrishnan,

I am under the impression that Govinda bhagavatpada was the guru of Shankara. The name Narayana is news to me. Do you have any supporting references pl.?

I agree that Shankara was born in the Namboodiri caste and the Namboodiris are a very reclusive group which could have maintained its genetic purity to some extent, but I am doubtful whether the original Aryans could have maintained their genetic purity all through the long migration from AryAvarta into the Kerala region (some research shows the Namboodiris took a circuitous route through AP and TN to cross the western ghats and come into the Kerala region)?

Will you kindly give the urls for your different blog sites pl.?

The vedic period presents a varied and mixed culture (there are matronymic names also). Moreover there are loan words in vedic sanskrit from sino-tibetan, dravidian, austroasiatic languages. Therefore imo the proposition presented by Frits Staal is true -- that indo-aryan speakers mated and mingled with indigenous people (or, speakers of other linguistic groups); and vedas were composed long after such intermingling. So, it appears, there was no such thing as "original aryans" even in vedic period. The only thing which existed was culture. Then culture changed.

We already noted cultural phases. First change happened in the historical period when brahmana texts were composed-- since the compositions are associated with the kuru-panchala heartland it must have been a kuru movement. The brahmana texts borrowed hymns from veda samhitas and also produced their own hymns. Primitive fire rituals of the vedic samhita period were now developed into elaborate vedic yagnas. This was the time when a 'brahmana' (performing yagnas or fire sacrifices) first appeared.

Mahabharat was also the time when atharvas gained eminence. The term 'brahmana' was reserved for the atharvan who was the master of a vedic yagna. The atharvan brahmana supervised the work of a rigvedic hotr, samavedic udgatr and a yajurvedic adhvaryu. But later the yajurvedic people arose in social prominence. This rise was detailed by Frits Staal in the book 'Discovering The Vedas'.

The Mahabharat period of conquests by kurus and their allies may have resulted in the earlier dharmashastras. But after examining the works of PV Kane, Keith and Staal, am of opinion now the rise of yajurvedic people resulted in the creation of the dharmashastras. After all, it was the yajur brahman-kshatriyas who drove away the vis.

Quite apparently, the yajur got to be preeminent. This must have been mistaken for aryan invasion, i feel. It also seems to me nearly all brahmakshatriya (brahmans of kshatriya decent aka kshatropeta brahmanas) were yajur (barring those such as shaunakas). So, it was just about one native culture gaining eminence over the rest; with laws, and all, to help them stay eminent. So, IMO, there was no such thing as aryan invasion.

 

[palindrome]

Most brahmins are mainly interested in finding how their tradional nityakarmas are still relevant in this changing world. That is all. That they seek to revive the varna system is not true in my opinion.

Not true. Hindutva nationalism is not that simple.

Many other castes too strive to retain atleast a certain portion of their traditional mores and culture.

This applies to retired elderly people IMO; who are struggling to keep the young interested in some things which they did.

The support to "hindutva" parties from brahmins and upper castes today has little to do with varna system.

Wrong. The leaders of RSS visioned India as a Hindu Rashtra (hindu nation) based on the Varna system. There are far too many papers on this. To readers, I suggest the book Contours of Hindu Rashtra: Hindutva, Sangh Parivar, and Contemporary Politics by Ram Puniyani.

Rather, the political alliance is formed because the non-hindutva parties are creating another set of priveleged classes - the minorities.

Minorities are Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, and Adivasis (ie., those of tribal religions). Barring the adivasis who do not have religious institutions, the buddhists, jains, sikhs are usurped under the term 'hinduism' for an obvious reason -- control over their religion, their religious institutions and thus socio-political control.

The most hated are the Muslims and Christians. There are far too many reasons underlying antagonism between them and hindutva people. Deen Dayal Upadhyay, a Jan Sangh leader, went so far as to dub a muslim a source of evil (page 90 of Political Process in Uttar Pradesh). But one thing is clear. The rise or betterment of minorities is viewed as a threat by hindutva nationalists who seek a 'hindu' nation with onus on varna class system.

There are caste-based priveleges on one hand that benefits lower castes and religion-based priveleges on the other hand that benefits non-hindus. The brahmins and hindu upper castes are left out of both. The creation of this new priveleged class not only takes away resources available to the general class but also makes it difficult to resist against this differential treatment as more and more people are taken away from the general class. The political support to hindutva parties is to limit the extent of religion-based priveleges and to limit the shrinking of general class.

Brahmins and upper castes get 31 percent seats. This chart (source is NFHS but url is not working) puts the population of general category in Tamilnadu at just 2%. So 2% population is getting 31% seats?? At that rate, all upper castes should be getting admission.

It is impossible to accept upper castes are not getting admission -- if not government colleges, private colleges are available. Infact, engineering colleges are put on sale because seats are not filled and business is not doing good. Show how many surplus seats are available.

IMO, all this hype about reservations, merely shows upper caste people are not able to digest (a) betterment of those they consider shudras; and (b) loss of social control.

As one can see, the lower castes and non-hindu minorities have the same objective - to retain their priveleged status, whereas the brahmins and upper castes are in the opposite camp. Therefore this has created a mirage that the brahmins and upper castes are seeking to overthrow secular governance and install a communal govt. That "hindutva" parties are fanatical and those who oppose it are moderates are just political statements. There is not much truth to them.

Brahmins and upper castes too get 31 percent seats. Even if upper castes were 20% of population, they are far too privileged with respect to ratio of population to quota allotment. As said earlier in the Aarakshan thread, amount of reserved categories should be increased from the current 69%. According to this post 88% of TN is backward. So it seems to me the struggling ones are infact the reserved categories; with 88% population they are struggling for 69% reserved seats.

As for seeking to overthrow secular government, the very nature of hindutva modeled on varna vyavastha is poles apart from secularism. This of course does not mean Congress is secular. Congress too plays caste politics and is not secular. There is no politician in India who is not corrupt. There is no political party which does not play caste and religion card for votes. India is a politically very unhealthy country.

 

[palindrome]

The hindutva Party (viz., the BJP) is also not a pro-brahmin outfit nor is the RSS.

Completely untrue. Hindutva is all about the creation of a Hindu Rashtra based on Varna.

Though some of our members beat their chest saying that personally they keep excellent relations with all castes including the Dalits, the million dollar question is whether the tabras are ready and have the zeal and initiative to do a "Mayawati" in TN? Also, whether this can be repeated at the All India level by the All India Brahmin Federation?

Mayawati is corrupt and power hungry. She can do anything for political power. It is about her self-benefit. She did nothing for dalits so far. Though Smarthas will do anything to get political power, I doubt if others can overcome their lack of trust for 'brahmins'; unless
(a) smarthas put up a hapless temple priest as a prop and portray themselves to be the same (although they may continue to view temple priests as lowly creatures of manusmriti with contempt); and
(b) smarthas seek out someone corrupt like Mayawati who will sell conscience for self-benefit. Since existing politicians have already created a society with no conscience, it should not be difficult to get someone like that.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Brahmins and upper castes get 31 percent seats.

Brahmins and upper castes too get 31 percent seats. Even if upper castes were 20% of population, they are far too privileged with respect to ratio of population to quota allotment.

Time and again this fallacious argument is made. The percentage of open category seats cannot be considered as quota. They are NOT "allotted" to any category of people. They are open for competition. This category is not the same as reserved seats.

According to this post 88% of TN is backward. So it seems to me the struggling ones are infact the reserved categories; with 88% population they are struggling for 69% reserved seats.

Whether the backward classes are struggling or not can be identified from the percentage of seats they corner in the open competition which is still open to them. That is the 88% population can compete for 100% of the seats, not 69%.

But all these have been discussed before. There is no point in going through these very same points again.

 

[sangom]

The vedic period presents a varied and mixed culture (there are matronymic names also). Moreover there are loan words in vedic sanskrit from sino-tibetan, dravidian, austroasiatic languages. Therefore imo the proposition presented by Frits Staal is true -- that indo-aryan speakers mated and mingled with indigenous people; and vedas were composed long after such intermingling. So, it appears, there was no such thing as "original aryans" even in vedic period. The only thing which existed was culture. Kindly note, this pertains to vedic samhita period. Then culture changed.

We already noted cultural phases. First change happened in the historical period when brahmana texts were composed-- since the compositions are associated with the kuru-panchala heartland it must have been a kuru movement. The brahmana texts borrowed hymns from veda samhitas and also produced their own hymns. Primitive fire rituals were now developed into elaborate vedic yagnas. This was the time when a 'brahmana' (performing yagnas or fire sacrifices) first appeared.

Mahabharat was also the time when atharvas gained eminence. The term 'brahmana' was reserved for the atharvan who was the master of a vedic yagna. The atharvan brahmana supervised the work of a rigvedic hotr, samavedic udgatr and a yajurvedic adhvaryu. But later the yajurvedic people arose in social prominence. This rise was detailed by Frits Staal in the book 'Discovering The Vedas'.

The Mahabharat period of conquests by kurus and their allies may have resulted in the earlier dharmashastras. But after examining the works of PV Kane, Keith and Staal, am of opinion now the rise of yajurvedic people resulted in the creation of the dharmashastras. After all, it was the yajur brahman-kshatriyas who drove away the vis. Quite apparently, the yajur now got to be preeminent. This must have been mistaken for aryan invasion, IMO. It also seems to me all brahmakshatriya (brahmans of kshatriya decent aka kshatropeta brahmanas) were yajur. So, it was just about one culture gaining eminence over the rest; with laws, and all, to help them stay eminent. So, IMO, there was no such thing as aryan invasion.

Palindrome,

When we say "original aryans" I am not sure what we are trying to refer to. From a purely genetic pov, I think a "pure" race can result only if mating between siblings or incest had been practised at least at the nascent stages of a race. We have the instance of Prajapati and his daughter Saraswati as seen in the Satapatha BrAhmana passage given below:

“Prajapati(Brahma) desired his daughter( SARASWATI) and made love to her. This was a sin in the eyes of the gods, who said to the god who rules over beasts [Pasupati, Rudra],‘He commits a sin, acting in this way towards his own daughter, our sister. Pierce him.’ Rudra took aim and pierced him. Half his seed fell to the ground. The gods cured Prajapati and cut out Rudra’s dart, for Prajapati is the sacrifice. To utilize [the seed], the gods said,‘Take care that this may not be lost, but that it may be less than the oblation.’ They gave it to Bhaga to eat, but it burnt his eyes and he became blind. Then they gave it to Pusan to eat, but it knocked out his teeth. At last they gave it to Savitr [the sun] and it did not injure him, for he appeased it.”—
Ref : Satapatha Brahmana 1:7:4:1-7.

Then, we have the Yama-Yami episode in Mandala X, hymn 10 of the Rigveda, to suggest that brother-sister marriages were allowed at some remote past.

Hence it may not be wrong to conclude that the Aryan race was pure up to a certain point in time. It is also quite reasonable and natural that for a migrant population such as the Indo-Aryans, it was both a necessity and a useful social device to have intermarriages with the local women, mainly so that the patrilinear society system did not crumble. It is therefore more accurate to say that the Indo-aryans did not continue as a pure race for a long time.

But to conclude that "there was no such thing as "original aryans" even in vedic period." will be rather unwarranted, I feel because, the reasons adduced in support thereof viz., matronymics (where?), loan words in vedic sanskrit from sino-tibetan, dravidian, austroasiatic languages, etc., prove only that these are vestiges of some far anterior contacts with matrilinear socities, and speakers of different languages; we cannot suddenly jump to the conclusion that these ought to be results of mating with different kinds of people.

The brAhmaNa texts depict the sacrifices at an advanced and complicated ritual stage. Therefore, it is more reasonable to conclude that by the time of these brAhmaNa texts, the fire sacrifices had already grown into complicated and elaborate rituals. The myth of vedavyAsa classifying the one veda into four presents another complication, according to me; is it not possible that one integrated priesthood started having differences among themselves as to whose (the hotA, ritvik, adhvaryu, udgAtA, and the brahman, etc.) role in the vedic yajnas was most important and crucial? A reading of the aikamatya sookta at the very end of the SAkala rigveda will convince an impartial student that the said sookta was more in the nature of an admonition to the bickering priests and they were being advised in that sooktam to be united in their mantras and minds समानो मन्त्रः ...समानमस्तु वो मनॊ समाना हृदयानि वः ...यथा वः सुसहासति । (samāno mantraḥ ...samānamastu vo mano samānā hṛdayāni vaḥ ...yathā vaḥ susahāsati |). Possibly at some point of time in these developments, each of the four main groups of priests the hotṛ, udgātṛ and adhvaryu groups might have separated the hymns pertaining to their own functions each, and accordingly given shape to the rik, sAman and yajur vedas, imho. One postulate is as good as another, in this matter, I think.

Regarding the postulate of “Kshatropeta Brahmins”, “Brahmakshatriyas”, etc., do we have any evidence from the samhitas or the brAhmaNa texts themselves? I find from google search that only the Harivamsapurana makes a reference to it.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Whenever the NBs in TN wanted to intimidate brahmins, they always went after the brahmin priests working in temples. All the kudumi, poonal cutting - they did to the brahmin priests. They, perhaps, did not realize how hapless the priest was then! When they wrote "பார்ப்பானொழிந்த சாதி மட்டும் தமிழ் சாதி", they certainly excluded poor brahmin priests. Their support for brahmin priests today is like wolf crying in support of a goat.

PS: Moderator, when post #42 is allowed, please allow this post also!

 

[palindrome]

Time and again this fallacious argument is made. The percentage of open category seats cannot be considered as quota. They are NOT "allotted" to any category of people. They are open for competition. This category is not the same as reserved seats.

Whether you call it quota or not, 31 percent seats are "allotted" to a category, called general category for open competition.

As for backward classes reserved candidates qualifying on merit, the following point was asked before:
"Will they be filling merit seats under their respective BC and MBC quotas? Or will they be filling merit seats under open-quota ? I was told if you get into a BC quota on merit (that is with very high marks) then you can choose college and course of choice."

Whether the backward classes are struggling or not can be identified from the percentage of seats they corner in the open competition which is still open to them. That is the 88% population can compete for 100% of the seats, not 69%.

But all these have been discussed before. There is no point in going through these very same points again.

If others (backward classes) are able to compete and get seats under open quota as you say, what is stopping brahmins from scoring equally well and getting seats?

 

[palindrome]

Whenever the NBs in TN wanted to intimidate brahmins, they always went after the brahmin priests working in temples. All the kudumi, poonal cutting - they did to the brahmin priests. They, perhaps, did not realize how hapless the priest was then! When they wrote "பார்ப்பானொழிந்த சாதி மட்டும் தமிழ் சாதி", they certainly excluded poor brahmin priests. Their support for brahmin priests today is like wolf crying in support of a goat.

PS: Moderator, when post #42 is allowed, please allow this post also!

It is extremely unfortunate temple priests were attacked in one period of time. Whether they were attacked by DK goons on party directive, or by low-caste people independently out of anger in sporadic incidents remains a point of debate. Even today (I think) a non-brahmin does not know who is a smartha and who is an agamic temple priest. In the colonial period, Smarthas very cleverly tried everything in their capacity to apply and enforce dharmashastra laws to the vast indian population. Public anger welled up. Unfortunately temple priests ended up being attacked.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

If others (backward classes) are able to compete and get seats under open quota as you say, what is stopping brahmins from scoring equally well and getting seats?

I never claimed that others are stopping brahmins from competing for open category. Some brahmins do well; some don't. This is true for other forward castes as well. My point is, whether it is acceptable to you or not, without reservation the forward castes, which includes brahmins, would have a greater pool of opportunities and resources and therefore reservation is a handicap. I know we are never going to agree on this point. So let's agree to disagree.

 

[palindrome]

Palindrome,

When we say "original aryans" I am not sure what we are trying to refer to. From a purely genetic pov, I think a "pure" race can result only if mating between siblings or incest had been practised at least at the nascent stages of a race. We have the instance of Prajapati and his daughter Saraswati as seen in the Satapatha BrAhmana passage given below:

“Prajapati(Brahma) desired his daughter( SARASWATI) and made love to her. This was a sin in the eyes of the gods, who said to the god who rules over beasts [Pasupati, Rudra],‘He commits a sin, acting in this way towards his own daughter, our sister. Pierce him.’ Rudra took aim and pierced him. Half his seed fell to the ground. The gods cured Prajapati and cut out Rudra’s dart, for Prajapati is the sacrifice. To utilize [the seed], the gods said,‘Take care that this may not be lost, but that it may be less than the oblation.’ They gave it to Bhaga to eat, but it burnt his eyes and he became blind. Then they gave it to Pusan to eat, but it knocked out his teeth. At last they gave it to Savitr [the sun] and it did not injure him, for he appeased it.”—
Ref : Satapatha Brahmana 1:7:4:1-7.

Then, we have the Yama-Yami episode in Mandala X, hymn 10 of the Rigveda, to suggest that brother-sister marriages were allowed at some remote past.

Hence it may not be wrong to conclude that the Aryan race was pure up to a certain point in time.

Sir, how can sibling marriages serve as proof for the existence of a 'pure race'? Please could you explain your understanding of a "race"?

It is also quite reasonable and natural that for a migrant population such as the Indo-Aryans, it was both a necessity and a useful social device to have intermarriages with the local women, mainly so that the patrilinear society system did not crumble. It is therefore more accurate to say that the Indo-aryans did not continue as a pure race for a long time.

We are talking of indo-aryan speakers mating with speakers of other linguistic groups at a time when all kinds of societies existed, patrilineal as well as matrilineal. Is there proof from vedic samhitas that indo-aryans were only patrilineal then?

But to conclude that "there was no such thing as "original aryans" even in vedic period." will be rather unwarranted, I feel because, the reasons adduced in support thereof viz., matronymics (where?), loan words in vedic sanskrit from sino-tibetan, dravidian, austroasiatic languages, etc., prove only that these are vestiges of some far anterior contacts with matrilinear socities, and speakers of different languages; we cannot suddenly jump to the conclusion that these ought to be results of mating with different kinds of people.

Matronymics: mentioned here. Some details of polyandry in the vedic period is here.

Regarding loan sounds or words of other linguistic groups found in vedic sanskrit -- on what basis can one deduce they are "vestiges of contacts" with matrilineal societies and speakers of other linguistic groups? As for mating and mingling of people prior to the vedic period, and evolution of vedic sanskrit, I think the book by Frits Staal "Discovering the Vedas" is good (because it combines research from the genetic pov and from linguistic pov).

The brAhmaNa texts depict the sacrifices at an advanced and complicated ritual stage. Therefore, it is more reasonable to conclude that by the time of these brAhmaNa texts, the fire sacrifices had already grown into complicated and elaborate rituals. The myth of vedavyAsa classifying the one veda into four presents another complication, according to me; is it not possible that one integrated priesthood started having differences among themselves as to whose (the hotA, ritvik, adhvaryu, udgAtA, and the brahman, etc.) role in the vedic yajnas was most important and crucial? A reading of the aikamatya sookta at the very end of the SAkala rigveda will convince an impartial student that the said sookta was more in the nature of an admonition to the bickering priests and they were being advised in that sooktam to be united in their mantras and minds समानो मन्त्रः ...समानमस्तु वो मनॊ समाना हृदयानि वः ...यथा वः सुसहासति । (samāno mantraḥ ...samānamastu vo mano samānā hṛdayāni vaḥ ...yathā vaḥ susahāsati |). Possibly at some point of time in these developments, each of the four main groups of priests the hotṛ, udgātṛ and adhvaryu groups might have separated the hymns pertaining to their own functions each, and accordingly given shape to the rik, sAman and yajur vedas, imho. One postulate is as good as another, in this matter, I think.

Kindly elaborate why you think vedic priesthood began from a single entity and broke into bickering factions. That the aikamatya sookta asks bikering priests to be united in their mantras and mind does not indicate the priests had a common origin in the first place.

Regarding the postulate of “Kshatropeta Brahmins”, “Brahmakshatriyas”, etc., do we have any evidence from the samhitas or the brAhmaNa texts themselves? I find from google search that only the Harivamsapurana makes a reference to it.

I think you refer to Harivamsapurana here which mentions the kShatropetA dvijAtayaH. I got some details of Kshatropeta-dvijatyah from this book and from Paul-Emile Dumont's partial translation of the Taittariya text. Unfortunately I do not have both the publications with me right now. I also tried to read the Taittariya Brahmana on my own and mentioned some things I found in this thread (pl note the Taittariya Brahmana verse which says Yajur is the origin for Kshatriyas was from the book History of Dharmashastras by PV Kane available here on page 41-42).

 

[palindrome]

I never claimed that others are stopping brahmins from competing for open category. Some brahmins do well; some don't. This is true for other forward castes as well. My point is, whether it is acceptable to you or not, without reservation the forward castes, which includes brahmins, would have a greater pool of opportunities and resources and therefore reservation is a handicap. I know we are never going to agree on this point. So let's agree to disagree.

There is no proof whatsoever to show reservations are a handicap for upper-castes. The open quota (general category) represents meritocracy. The best get in. The others do not cut the mark. I believe the ones who complain about reservations are those who did not cut the mark.