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Caste system: an indigenous invention in South India? D. BALASUBRAMANIAN

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Palindrome said:
I believe the ones who complain about reservations are those who did not cut the mark.

And I believe the ones who say anything in order to support reservation know they can't make it without the help of reservation! To hold on to their priveleges, they will resort to anything and everything!

Reservation is discrimination and people have the right to opine against it. I do not think anybody's opinion can be stopped by resorting to cheap tricks.

There are some people here who think that those people who disagree with them are not good enough or Karma will come and haunt those people. Silly, I say!
 
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கால பைரவன்;184307 said:
I never claimed that others are stopping brahmins from competing for open category. Some brahmins do well; some don't. This is true for other forward castes as well. My point is, whether it is acceptable to you or not, without reservation the forward castes, which includes brahmins, would have a greater pool of opportunities and resources and therefore reservation is a handicap. I know we are never going to agree on this point. So let's agree to disagree.


I agree with your point.
Quota system skews the selection process. There was a time when the backward classes needed a helping hand may be at up to 10 years of independence. Now it is a boat anchor around the necks of Brahmin and forward classes. The unqualified people are getting the advantage of the quota system. Consequently the general consumer is getting poor quality care. If we allow healthy competition based on ability alone, we will be better served.

The open competition is consumer goods has allowed us to get better goods, or we all still will be driving the good old rickety Ambassadors.

And finally the last point but which hurts the most. let me give us a example of two people. Mr X is a low caste person and Mr Y is a high caste person. both apply for the same job. Mr X gets it as seat is ear marked for reserved category. now X has a better job and he has "risen" his family to good level economically. Y gets a low job. a few years later, the son or daughter of X again applies for the job. but wait a minute, isnt his family already "uplifted"? why should he be eligible for reservation now. cant that job be given to son of Y if he is more capable enough cas he is the person who needs to be "uplifted" now.


reservations doesnt take into account economic status of person and there in lies the problem. there are high number of high caste people who are economically backward then many low caste people.


i am of the opinion that no reservation should be allowed. The government can provide free education till graduate level for "economically backward classes". earmarking of seats for any particular sect/caste should be abolished.

These people who are profitting from this quota system, should be made to compete in the market place. Let merit dictate the outcome. Social engineering has served its purpose.
 
கால பைரவன்;184314 said:
And I believe the ones who say anything in order to support reservation know they can't make it without the help of reservation! To hold on to their priveleges, they will resort to anything and everything!

Reservation is discrimination and people have the right to opine against it. I do not think anybody's opinion can be stopped by resorting to cheap tricks.

There are some people here who think that those people who disagree with them are not good enough or Karma will come and haunt those people. Silly, I say!
Well, this was expected. If you can't get thru on merit, then blame reservations.

I do not have a caste certificate. Neither do my parents. I did not get reservations. In Karnataka, I was considered a Tamil Nadu candidate. In Tamil Nadu, I was considered a Karnataka candidate. In every place, I was an out of state candidate. Back then, so many colleges and options did not exist. Plus, I was more involved in ashrams and gurus; rather than school and studies. I did not cut the mark.

At one time I was swayed by the anti-mandal riots. My cousin (a half brahmin who too did not have a caste certificate) was part of it with a self-immolation bid (yes, self-immolation). We thought politicians were ruining us with caste tags. We did not care for caste. We were indignant, why caste tags were foisted upon us. We had a lot of anger in us.

It did not occur to us none of us had actually scored high marks. We had convinced ourselves we did not get seats because we came under forward caste category. There were very many of us who thought that way. Doing everything anti-mandal was a big thing then. I have been there, done it.

When I came to this forum, I was against reservations. Not only caste factor but circumstances in life also had made it difficult for me to acquire an education. But I persisted.

I began reading up on reservations in depth, when Nara sir produced an email from someone in this forum. Then I realized there is an entire process which goes into making decisions. It is not just politicians alone.

It took me a while to put my selfish self out of the picture and think of the larger picture. Now, I do not oppose reservations. In fact, I support it. I do not think it is correct to oppose reservations just because one did not get it.

Over the past 5 years, especially the past 2 to 3 years, every single person I know, who applied under general category, got admission. It was not always a course of choice or a college of choice. But they got the engineering and medicine seats they wanted.

Looking at how determined younger ones are (to make it), I feel rather silly for having been against reservations in my younger days. Now I believe if you have the ability, you will get it. It has always been like that. A general category for meritorious students always existed.

I believe the competition has gotten tougher. The cut off margin between general category and backward class for MBBS 2012 was just 1 mark. This website gives cut-off marks for each college from 2007. All this applies for government aided colleges.

Then you have private colleges. Education is a business for private colleges. Too many private colleges exist today; and they are offering seats with lower and lower donations. Yet seats are not filled. But still there are people who continue to oppose reservations. No idea how much more sillier they can get. As for the pot-shot of cheap tricks, lets see what the future holds for those who resort to it.

And yep, I do believe in karma. However, the context in which you portray my views on it can't get sillier. No one cares for agreeing or disagreeing. Lets watch and wait.

Finally, since things with you end in pot-shots (as always), I leave you to do the rounds.

Thank you.
 
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Palindromeji,
Not everybody is you. The world does not revolve around you. You are not the center of the universe. Observations here are of general nature. Your achievements may mean a lot you and you alone.
The views expressed here are for AAm admi.
 
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Well, this was expected. If you can't get thru on merit, then blame reservations.

..........

Finally, since things with you end in pot-shots (as always), I leave you to do the rounds.

Thank you.

Now, am I to write my own life story to disprove Palindrome's statement. Our own lifestories are just that. Life stories. They do not provide evidence to sway the argument one way or the other.

If there are enough seats that go unfilled even in a "reservation" regime, why have reservations at all? Anyone with half a brain can see through the logic or the lack of it in Palindrome's post.

Nothing more to add.
 
The readership is neither naive, silly, nor foolish to see things the way you do; or the way I do. They form their own opinions. Everyone is the aam aadmi. So am I. Personally, Your observations mean nothing more than crap to me. Feel free to avoid reading my posts.

There are sensible and sensitive people here, mind your language. I know you have run away when people point out your failings. You are not part of the general readership, so your foolishness is accepted.
 
கால பைரவன்;184323 said:
Now, am I to write my own life story to disprove Palindrome's statement. Our own lifestories are just that. Life stories. They do not provide evidence to sway the argument one way or the other.

If there are enough seats that go unfilled even in a "reservation" regime, why have reservations at all? Anyone with half a brain can see through the logic or the lack of it in Palindrome's post.

Nothing more to add.
Those with a quarter brain can see logic why reservations came into being and are here to stay. Irrespective of whether seats are filled or unfilled in private colleges.
Good to note you have nothing more to add. Best wishes.
 
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There are sensible and sensitive people here, mind your language. I know you have run away when people point out your failings. You are not part of the general readership, so your foolishness is accepted.
I have neither run away nor have i made insensitive posts. Am aware this is a bait. Reported this post. Note the repeated attacks please (speaks volumes about you Prasad1).
 
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I believe the ones who complain about reservations are those who did not cut the mark.

This is an attempt to deny the existence and bury the evidence of stark facts which do not agree with the opinion of the poster, especially when specific and irrefutable fact has been pointed out here: Message no. 3 of Smt RR : http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11788-brahmin-s-economic-condition.html

To borrow the phrase used by Sri Sangom, it is "Muzhu pooshanikAyai Sorthil maraikka pArkaradhu", trying to hide the whole pumpkin in a plate of cooked rice !!!!
 
post #46:

Kalabairavan said:
Time and again this fallacious argument is made. The percentage of open category seats cannot be considered as quota. They are NOT "allotted" to any category of people. They are open for competition. This category is not the same as reserved seats.
and Palindrome said:
Whether you call it quota or not, 31 percent seats are "allotted" to a category, called general category for open competition.

My view: 31% is not allotted to any category because "general" is not a category like SC or ST. It would be appropriate to say 31% remain unallotted and remain open to all castes.


Kalabairavan:
Whether the backward classes are struggling or not can be identified from the percentage of seats they corner in the open competition which is still open to them. That is the 88% population can compete for 100% of the seats, not 69%. But all these have been discussed before. There is no point in going through these very same points again.

palindrome:
If others (backward classes) are able to compete and get seats under open quota as you say, what is stopping brahmins from scoring equally well and getting seats?

It is not so simple. Under Reddys there is a community/subcaste called konda reddy community. It is considered a nomadic tribe living in the northern jungles of AP-Odissa border. But a reddiar friend of me from Madurai who does not know any thing about AP or Telugu declared himself to be a kondareddy (ST quota) and got selected as an IAS officer. I understand, in every community like Naidus, mudalis, thevars, Pillais, Nadars (a Sivakasi nadar friend of me declared himself as chanar-a backward subcaste of nadars- and got scholarship-read pocket money- from 8th standard onwards throughout his college education.) But a brahmin can never declare himself as gurukkal and get the benefit of reservation because for our constitution even the hapless gurukkal community is socially, educationally, culturally and economically (and for any…cally and all…cally) well advanced and hence forward. Where is equality in law that you are so loudly declaring with "righteous indignation"? all these “smart” fellows get their promotions also, to boot, under the quota system. The question is not why Brahmins can not score well. It is why should they alone struggle and exert to get that extra 1 mark while every reddy, mudali, naidu, naicker, pillai, thevar and nadar do not have to. The injustice done to Brahmins can not be wished away or papered over as you have attempted to do. It is real and bad.

KB:
Whenever the NBs in TN wanted to intimidate brahmins, they always went after the brahmin priests working in temples. All the kudumi, poonal cutting - they did to the brahmin priests. They, perhaps, did not realize how hapless the priest was then! When they wrote "பார்ப்பானொழிந்த சாதி மட்டும் தமிழ் சாதி", they certainly excluded poor brahmin priests. Their support for brahmin priests today is like wolf crying in support of a goat.
palindrome:
It is extremely unfortunate temple priests were attacked in one period of time. Whether they were attacked by DK goons on party directive, or by low-caste people independently out of anger in sporadic incidents remains a point of debate. Even today (I think) a non-brahmin does not know who is a smartha and who is an agamic temple priest. In the colonial period, Smarthas very cleverly tried everything in their capacity to apply and enforce dharmashastra laws to the vast indian population. Public anger welled up. Unfortunately temple priests ended up being attacked.

What a beautiful attempt at being evenhanded with good as well as bad! It is just ‘unfortunate’ and ‘it happened just at one period of time’. Whether it is a sporadic act of a goon or a directed attack we do not know-this is the way lies are spread and truths are made to appear to be suspect. Whether it was done out of anger is again a ‘point of debate’. Yes how else can we discredit the truth? And do not ask why anger was not against the mudalis, naickers and thevars and only against Brahmins. Oh yeah. Don’t you know smarthas are different from agamic temple priests? So the anger wherever it was against the smarthas are fully justified but poor gurukkals could have been spared. Anger being what it is can not differentiate between the two communities you see. That is why the public anger which naturally and spontaneously welled up against the smarthas got vented out on gurukkals. In the whole drama the middle castes were all innocent angels who were just helpless bystanders.

Palindrome! Brahmins are not the legendary crow and you are not the legendary clever fox to tell the story and run away with the vada. What a pathetic attempt.

palindrome in57:

Those with a quarter brain can see logic why reservations came into being and are here to stay. Irrespective of whether seats are filled or unfilled in private colleges.
Good to note you have nothing more to add. Best wishes.

The quarter brain says reservations came into being to help the lowest of the low communities who were at the receiving end for centuries . Reservations stay because politicians want it that way. Why they want it to stay is because they have seen how opiates and norcotic substances are sold by anti-socials and how more and more of it demanded by the hapless victims. The drug peddler is at least honest in that he gets his money and forgets the victim for that moment. But politicians never let the people forget the castes. And we have palindromes to applaud and cry jai Ho to these neo drug peddlers.

Cheers.
 
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This is an attempt to deny the existence and bury the evidence of stark facts which do not agree with the opinion of the poster, especially when specific and irrefutable fact has been pointed out here: Message no. 3 of Smt RR : http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11788-brahmin-s-economic-condition.html

To borrow the phrase used by Sri Sangom, it is "Muzhu pooshanikAyai Sorthil maraikka pArkaradhu", trying to hide the whole pumpkin in a plate of cooked rice !!!!
Getting 100% in one subject is not enough. I do not think even CMC Vellore would accept the candidature. Hundreds get that. High scorers are everywhere. All reputed colleges are flooded with candidates who score very high marks in all subjects. I can show you someone who got 100% in two subjects, did not get a rank, and settled for engineering instead of medical college. There are also people who get 100% in 4 subjects (someone I know did; way back in the 1990s, and even then settled for engineering not medicine). To be considered a rank holder, you should not only score high marks in +2 (i.e., 12th Std or A level) school leaving exams but also score high marks in the college entrance exam. As for cut-off marks, required for admission into each college, already provided a hyperlink providing the same from 2007. Interested readers are free to check the difference.

I borrow Nacchinarkiniyan's words:
Show me one instance of a Brahmin rank holder being denied admission because of reservation. I will withdraw my above statement. Many of us made to the top because we got a rank in our examination. Not because we were Brahmins.
 
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It did not occur to us none of us had actually scored high marks. We had convinced ourselves we did not get seats because we came under forward caste category. There were very many of us who thought that way. Doing everything anti-mandal was a big thing then. I have been there, done it.

It is not those brahmin students who scored 68% and 78% who feel bad. It is those who have scored 985 or 97% who feel let down by the society when they find others with just 85% or 87% sailing through.

Cheers.
 
Out here in Malaysia when there are many top scorers with the same marks competing for a seat in the university the 1st preference will be given to the student who also has a impressive sports and co curricular activities.

Just say one student A has 97% and student B has 97% too.

Student A was active in sports and co curricular activites but Student B was just a book worm and not active in sports etc...student A will be given preference over Student B.

May be India should also adopt this method so that students will be all rounders instead of just being book worms.

Even when I went for my government interview before internship my previous state level sports achievements helped me get a posting faster than those who were inactive in school days even though marks and results were similar.
 
Out here in Malaysia when there are many top scorers with the same marks competing for a seat in the university the 1st preference will be given to the student who also has a impressive sports and co curricular activities.

Just say one student A has 97% and student B has 97% too.

Student A was active in sports and co curricular activites but Student B was just a book worm and not active in sports etc...student A will be given preference over Student B.

May be India should also adopt this method so that students will be all rounders instead of just being book worms.

Even when I went for my government interview before internship my previous state level sports achievements helped me get a posting faster than those who were inactive in school days even though marks and results were similar.
In India there is a sports quota for those who excel in sports. A quota for children of defense staff. A quota for people with physical disability. Like this seats are divided into quotas.
 
In India there is a sports quota for those who excel in sports. A quota for children of defense staff. A quota for people with physical disability. Like this seats are divided into quotas.
hi
being brahmin ...my kids are not eligible for any quotas.....so i joined indian army....now my kids are eligible for defence quota....

so now im getting all quotas/benefits for ex servicemen category....
 
It is not those brahmin students who scored 68% and 78% who feel bad. It is those who have scored 985 or 97% who feel let down by the society when they find others with just 85% or 87% sailing through.

Cheers.

Thats true,anyway no use crying about reservation,i have also cried but it is pointless.

If you have brains,u can survive.
 
Getting 100% in one subject is not enough. I do not think even CMC Vellore would accept the candidature. Hundreds get that. High scorers are everywhere. All reputed colleges are flooded with candidates who score very high marks in all subjects. I can show you someone who got 100% in two subjects, did not get a rank, and settled for engineering instead of medical college. There are also people who get 100% in 4 subjects (someone I know did; way back in the 1990s, and even then settled for engineering not medicine). To be considered a rank holder, you should not only score high marks in +2 (i.e., 12th Std or A level) school leaving exams but also score high marks in the college entrance exam. As for cut-off marks, required for admission into each college, already provided a hyperlink providing the same from 2007. Interested readers are free to check the difference.

I borrow Nacchinarkiniyan's words:
Show me one instance of a Brahmin rank holder being denied admission because of reservation. I will withdraw my above statement. Many of us made to the top because we got a rank in our examination. Not because we were Brahmins.

As of today,there is no entrance examination.

It is perfectly possible for a focussed person to score a lot of marks in the board examinations.

But if you ask me personally,it is better to do a specialized thing like Army/Hotel management.
 
It is extremely unfortunate temple priests were attacked in one period of time. Whether they were attacked by DK goons on party directive, or by low-caste people independently out of anger in sporadic incidents remains a point of debate. Even today (I think) a non-brahmin does not know who is a smartha and who is an agamic temple priest. In the colonial period, Smarthas very cleverly tried everything in their capacity to apply and enforce dharmashastra laws to the vast indian population. Public anger welled up. Unfortunately temple priests ended up being attacked.

They were attacked by DK goons especially and not any random lower caste person out of anger.

I dont know what you are talking about,In Tirunelveli/Travancore , Brahmin teachers taught all castes that came to school,this happened right till the 1980s and the day the brahmins left teaching in government schools,govt schools became what they are today.
 
President Narayanan and Chief Justice (CJ) Balakrishnan came from poor families. President Narayanan was born in a hut. CJ Balakrishnan was no better off, his father was just a matriculate. Under the brahmin varna system, both these people cud not even have studied, or got any opportunity to improve their lives, let alone occupy apex offices.

Reg C.Subramanian, well, how to trust....Anyways, what is you definition of anti-brahmin?

KR Narayanan was also taught by upper caste teachers and not like an ekalayvan either,
 
biswa,

the so called lower castes, have racial memories of glory. no one was a 'scheduled' a few centuries ago. being conquered was equivalent to slavery, and the tamil tribes were no better, no worse, than the mores of those days.

at the dawn of the 20th century, the tamil brahmins, with the newly acquired power through education, sealed their fate, by openly claiming themselves as 'aryans', and the only linguistic group in india, termed the rest of the castes as NB. this they effectively sold to the british overlords, and it is only in tamil nadu the hindus are divided thus.

... in a historic sense, it is only fair that the rest of the tamil tribes elevate themselves to the level of a fair share of the cake. after all, tambrams, who throughout the centuries, by and large, were at the mercy of the castes for their susbsistence, for a brief period in history, could afford to dance only because the british wanted clerks versed in the english language, to churn the machinery of the Raj.

we soon bit the hand that fed us, never realizing, that with the exit of the british, much as we despise them, our privileges came to nought. :)

history has a way of righting the wrongs, i think. though some wrongs, i do not know, how they could be righted. like the Holocaust. could the jews ever be righted. or what wrongs did the jews commit, that historically their 'wrongs' could be vindicted?

i dont know.

ps.. even the newly arrived group to the tamil tribedom - the catholics have a miniature racial memory. when P.G.Panneerdas of the VGP fame, died suddenly in his prime, it is said, that his death was a punishment from jesus himself, because vgp promoted the t.v. series ramayana. dont know if you give credibility to this, but again, in all the catholic churches of tamil nadu, masses were said in penance, and catholics vowed not to watch ramayana.

such is the extremes of faith in india. good or bad. so be it. thaththaasthu.

It is not so simple,

The influence of Brahmins/Priests upon TN is legendary and lot of work has happened since the beginning.

Most of the Kings including the Nayakkars/Krishna deva Raya had Brahmins as advisors.

Secondly,The brahmins of TN are different from the rest if not racially/genetically but culturally and they wanted to preserve it.
 
What you say is true and will not enter the ears and psyche of some even if repeated zillion times.

Brahmins were never responsible for the plight of any jati; in UP both the brahmins and the dalits are coming together as the oppressed lot.

We brahmins must never fall prey to the vicious campaign of the mischievous lot.

It is not so simple,

The influence of Brahmins/Priests upon TN is legendary and lot of work has happened since the beginning.

Most of the Kings including the Nayakkars/Krishna deva Raya had Brahmins as advisors.

Secondly,The brahmins of TN are different from the rest if not racially/genetically but culturally and they wanted to preserve it.
 
It is not so simple,

The influence of Brahmins/Priests upon TN is legendary and lot of work has happened since the beginning.

Most of the Kings including the Nayakkars/Krishna deva Raya had Brahmins as advisors.

Secondly,The brahmins of TN are different from the rest if not racially/genetically but culturally and they wanted to preserve it.

Can you on any authority tell us that Brahmin advisor was appointed for his Brahminness? Or was he appointed for his qualifications. Two distinct events happening together is called coincidence.

Let us say that Brahmin was not qualified, Do you think Krishna Deva Raya would have still employed him as his advisor. Elementary a simple query would have clarified your erroneous conclusion.
 
Krishnadevaraya employed all varnas. But he had immense respect for brahmins, and supported temple construction, yagnas, vedic rites and gave 'brahmadeyam' lands for brahmins to settle and prosper.

Many smriti and chanakya's niti/ artha sastras define the qualifications required for employment. A good king will have ministers and advisers with diverse skills in religion, dharma, politics, economics and common sense.

What is erroneous - 'had brahmins as advisers' was the statement and not 'only brahmins as advisers'.

Can you on any authority tell us that Brahmin advisor was appointed for his Brahminness? Or was he appointed for his qualifications. Two distinct events happening together is called coincidence.

Let us say that Brahmin was not qualified, Do you think Krishna Deva Raya would have still employed him as his advisor. Elementary a simple query would have clarified your erroneous conclusion.
 
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