Caste tag for educational institutions triggers thought provoking debate

[vgane]

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Back to caste!

Can we eradicate caste by obliterating caste names...

The most heinous crimes in Tamil Nadu are done in the name of caste...

Doing symbolic is important but the hate crimes have to be eliminated.
Caste tag for education institutions triggers thought provoking debate
By S Mannar Mannan | ENS - COIMBATORE
16th August 2013 08:25 AM
An ongoing PIL in the Madras High Court seeking to ban use of caste identities in the names of government and aided educational institutions in Tamil Nadu has triggered a thought-provoking debate.
Blaming the caste system for all social evils, the petitioner, advocate S Saravanan sought a direction to State-funded schools and colleges to drop caste identities prefixed or suffixed to their names.
The court has issued notices to the Government and adjourned the case to September 10.
Many prominent schools and colleges that are either run or funded by the government have caste identities in their names. For instance, in Erode, a government aided college is named Chikkaiah Naicker College. Similarly, the Yadava College in Madurai is an aided college and in Virudhunagar, a school is named SS Subbiah Nadar Government Higher Secondary School. Naicker, Yadava and Nadar are caste names.
Coimbatore MP P R Natarajan feels there is no need to prefix or suffix caste name to educational institutions’ names. “This will not help the institutions to achieve their aim of popularising education,” he argues.
“Earlier, names of castes were removed from the names of streets and localities. Now, it is the right time to drop caste identities from the name boards of educational institutions. This will protect the minds of school and college students from being corrupted in the name of caste and help inculcate thoughts against caste discrimination among them,” reasons K S Kanagaraj, state president of Students Federation of India.
Endorsing him, Students Welfare Association of Parents (SWAP) chairman R Manimohan added that including caste as part of names of colleges or schools will create the feeling that a particular group is given preference over others in that particular institution.
However, former Vice Chairman of Tamil Nadu State Council for Higher Education A Ramasamy says that though the intention behind the demand to drop caste or religious identities from names of educational institutions is laudable, it will not be an easy process.
“There would be hurdles as some institutions like Madras Christian College, Banaras Hindu University and Aligarh Muslim University have been functioning for over 100 years. A backward or minority community would have established colleges and schools to promote education in the community and named them after the specific group. We cannot expect them to remove it,” he opines

 

[renuka]

The problem is Tamilians have no surnames and the caste name becomes surname sorts.

So may be we can all invent surnames based on the professions we are doing like how the Parsis have their surnames.

So may be those who are in IT can have a name like:

Ramesh ITkaran.

and all his progeny can take the name ITkaran and it has no caste tag and later if Ramesh ITkaran decides to open a college..it would be Ramesh ITkaran Institute of Technology..see how nice it sounds.

 

[tks]

If systematic discrimination is shown to exist in a place , with evidence , then that is grounds to put people running the place in jail.
Barring such situation those that gravitate towards names of castes are untrustworthy losers in life in my view. They cause more harm than good by their attempted means to project a sense of fairness which is often done for selfish reasons

 

[Vaagmi]

The problem is Tamilians have no surnames and the caste name becomes surname sorts.
So may be we can all invent surnames based on the professions we are doing like how the Parsis have their surnames.
So may be those who are in IT can have a name like:
Ramesh ITkaran.
and all his progeny can take the name ITkaran and it has no caste tag and later if Ramesh ITkaran decides to open a college..it would be Ramesh ITkaran Institute of Technology..see how nice it sounds.

In course of time ITkaran may undergo a metamorphosis and the Institute may take an apt name Eettikkaaran Institute of Technology and people with a lot of money will go that Institute for admission of their children who got fail marks in the eligibility criteria.

 

[Raji Ram]

Though not an existing name, most of the engg. colleges are 'eettikkaaran institutes',

even for many students with first class marks!! :sad:

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Good point made by TKS in post #3.

Members here might know about the proposal of the ministry of minority affairs to open an university in Srirangapatna to be named after Tipu Sultan.

There was wide spread opposition to the name and many hindu outfits participated in such agitations. They decired Tipu Sultan as an extremist, traitor and mass murderer.

But the name is only a minor problem (no pun intended). The real issue is that this was planned to be set up as a "minority" university, which means a significant percentage of seats reserved for minorities, a tag determined solely by one's religion. This, of course, is a clear case of communal discrimination.

The focus should be on opposing such discrimination on grounds of religion and not go after the name, a concession which does not really matter at all.

 

[sangom]

Removing caste surnames from all public discourses is surely one way of making the future generations do not remember "caste" often. I suggest that the governments (central and state) should take steps to set up "communities" (like the Auroville in Pondichery) in which "caste" will be not there at all in any aspect of life - from birth to death. People opting to live in such communities should be given preference to professional college admissions, government jobs, etc. Very soon we will find the results.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Post #2 - Suppose Ramesh ITkaran has a son called Suresh, and Suresh takes up a job in the army. Would Suresh’s surname be listed as Suresh ITkaran or because he is in the fighting profession, Suresh ArmyKaran? Does each generation invent a new surname depending on their profession?
Surname, by definition, is a “hereditary” name common to all members of a family, as distinct from a given name. The social protocol in having a surname is that it is the one name that is common from one generation to the next - father, son, grandson, and so on.

Post #7 “…set up "communities" (like the Auroville in Pondichery) in which "caste" will be not there at all in any aspect of life - from birth to death. People opting to live in such communities should be given preference to professional college admissions, government jobs, etc. Very soon we will find the results.”
Say the people opting to live in such communities are from Bengal, Andhra, Maharashtra, Punjab etc. If a guy has a name like Subrata or Debabrata, you know he is a Bengali. If the name is phaneendra, phaneesh, or Mallikharjuna - he is from Andhra. Ghanshyam could be from Maharashtra, Gurbaksh is a Punjabi name and so on.
While there may be no indication of caste, there will be subtle banding together of the people based on whether they speak Bengali, Telugu, Marathi or Punjabi. And the subsequent generations will be guided by their parents’ cultural proclivity. So, instead of caste, something else will divide people.
So, the solution may not be to eliminate caste names or caste system, but to educate people that, in spite of caste, we all share a common national destiny. In the ultimate analysis, once material prosperity is ensured for every one, caste, like nationality, will no longer be relevant.

 

[prasad1]

Removing caste surnames from all public discourses is surely one way of making the future generations do not remember "caste" often. I suggest that the governments (central and state) should take steps to set up "communities" (like the Auroville in Pondichery) in which "caste" will be not there at all in any aspect of life - from birth to death. People opting to live in such communities should be given preference to professional college admissions, government jobs, etc. Very soon we will find the results.

So now you trust GOVERNMENT to set up communities, and you expect individuals to be penned in these communities!!!!
Reminds me of Nazi camps or mao reeducation camps. Everybody who has views (not to my liking0) should be interned or better still eliminated so there is no opposing views expressed.

 

[renuka]

Post #2 - Suppose Ramesh ITkaran has a son called Suresh, and Suresh takes up a job in the army. Would Suresh’s surname be listed as Suresh ITkaran or because he is in the fighting profession, Suresh ArmyKaran? Does each generation invent a new surname depending on their profession?
Surname, by definition, is a “hereditary” name common to all members of a family, as distinct from a given name. The social protocol in having a surname is that it is the one name that is common from one generation to the next - father, son, grandson, and so on.

Dear Sir,

I have seen some Sri Lankan Tamil families here making surnames for example....they had a grandfather by the name Ratnasingham and they make Ratnasingham the surname of the family..so the children/grandchildren too carry the name Ratnasingham and the whole lineage is known as the Ratnasinghams.

The surname does not change anymore.

 

[sangom]

So now you trust GOVERNMENT to set up communities, and you expect individuals to be penned in these communities!!!!

Land being one of the costliest and legally intricate assets in India it is not possible for individuals (except those like Vadra, Rahul, etc.) to get hold of hectares of land. Plus, for setting up a community like auroville, lot of infrastructure work has to be done. Of course, even if the govt. decides to accede to this suggestion, ultimately it will be some powerful land mafia person who will get the contract. But individual initiatives from the hoi polloi like me will not be sufficient at all. I don't "trust" that the government will do this, my suggestion was just an idea for this forum to discuss, if there is no "veto" from any "foreignized" member!!

Reminds me of Nazi camps or mao reeducation camps. Everybody who has views (not to my liking0) should be interned or better still eliminated so there is no opposing views expressed.

I don't think the comparison to Nazi camps is correct. It was shameful on your part to equate the auroville to Nazi/Mao camps. But such new attempts may have to be made to erase caste notions from the minds of indians of all hues.

 

[sangom]

< snip >

Post #7 “…set up "communities" (like the Auroville in Pondichery) in which "caste" will be not there at all in any aspect of life - from birth to death. People opting to live in such communities should be given preference to professional college admissions, government jobs, etc. Very soon we will find the results.”
Say the people opting to live in such communities are from Bengal, Andhra, Maharashtra, Punjab etc. If a guy has a name like Subrata or Debabrata, you know he is a Bengali. If the name is phaneendra, phaneesh, or Mallikharjuna - he is from Andhra. Ghanshyam could be from Maharashtra, Gurbaksh is a Punjabi name and so on.
While there may be no indication of caste, there will be subtle banding together of the people based on whether they speak Bengali, Telugu, Marathi or Punjabi. And the subsequent generations will be guided by their parents’ cultural proclivity. So, instead of caste, something else will divide people.
So, the solution may not be to eliminate caste names or caste system, but to educate people that, in spite of caste, we all share a common national destiny. In the ultimate analysis, once material prosperity is ensured for every one, caste, like nationality, will no longer be relevant.

The suggestion was to eliminate the caste-consciousness from the minds of the future generations. Identities like regional, linguistic, etc., do not seem to be as poisonous as that of caste. For quite some time now there have been marriages between people of different regions/languages and no great harm has happened to the country due to this.

 

[prasad1]

Sangomji,
It was you who brought Government and auroville together. Government imposed camps are forced, Auroville on the other hand is volunteer grouping.

You wanted government to create the grouping it is similar to internment camps. So if it is shameful it was your creation.

 

[palindrome]

The petitioner should set up an online petition to enlist mass support. He is right. Why should educational institutions have caste names at all?

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Sir,

I have seen some Sri Lankan Tamil families here making surnames for example....they had a grandfather by the name Ratnasingham and they make Ratnasingham the surname of the family..so the children/grandchildren too carry the name Ratnasingham and the whole lineage is known as the Ratnasinghams.

The surname does not change anymore.

the concept of surname per modern definition, is or was, alien to me, till i came to filling out double names required in my high school certificate.

so my initial was expanded, and my father's name became my first name and my real calling name, my surname.

mrs K took my real name and attached it to her wonderfful moniker, and the for children, we did the same. in a way, my name, started a dynastyl.

but i have relatives who quote their gothra or their native place (trichur, thondukolam..) as their last name. as long as we have two names, and it is consistent in your documents you are ok. also, there is no need either for the wife or children to have the same last name as the husband/father. not any more.

 

[palindrome]

K sir and Renu, names like ratnasingham are not caste tags, so is fine i feel...

Once upon a time, i tried to change my name. There was so much hassle involved, i gave it up. Am glad both my children do not carry caste tags in their name. It ends with me. As such, caste is completely meaningless right now in time to a vast number of people. Narrow minded folks with agendas fester the caste thingy. It is deplorable if academic institutions carry caste tags.

 

[kunjuppu]

K sir and Renu, names like ratnasingham are not caste tags, so is fine i feel...

Once upon a time, i tried to change my name. There was so much hassle involved, i gave it up. Am glad both my children do not carry caste tags in their name. It ends with me. As such, caste is completely meaningless right now in time to a vast number of people. Narrow minded folks with agendas fester the caste thingy. It is deplorable if academic institutions carry caste tags.

interesting though, many south african tamils, use the caste tag as a surname. we find a lot of moodlis chetty naidoo pillay padayachi nair and i happen to know quite a few of them

there is no importance attached to the tag. intermarriage is common. it is used as just another name. very good attitude. south african tamils have no caste based belief.

 

[Vaagmi]

Good point made by TKS in post #3.

Members here might know about the proposal of the ministry of minority affairs to open an university in Srirangapatna to be named after Tipu Sultan.

There was wide spread opposition to the name and many hindu outfits participated in such agitations. They decired Tipu Sultan as an extremist, traitor and mass murderer.

But the name is only a minor problem (no pun intended). The real issue is that this was planned to be set up as a "minority" university, which means a significant percentage of seats reserved for minorities, a tag determined solely by one's religion. This, of course, is a clear case of communal discrimination.

The focus should be on opposing such discrimination on grounds of religion and not go after the name, a concession which does not really matter at all.

A doubt in my mind for a long time:

Any minority will need the Government's support in order to retain the minority group's special identity, culture and peculiarities. The idea is not to allow a gobbling up of a unique group's culture by the monolith majority. The term minority can be applied to brahmins as a group too. They live in the midst of a huge majority of others (2% versus 35%, 40%and more). And there is a relentless attempt by the majority to completely wipe out the minority by swallowing it. By the same logic that applies to Muslims, Christians and Parsis brahmins too should be treated as a minority on the brink of extinction and allowed to get the minority benefits.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I suggest that the governments (central and state) should take steps to set up "communities" (like the Auroville in Pondichery) in which "caste" will be not there at all in any aspect of life - from birth to death. People opting to live in such communities should be given preference to professional college admissions, government jobs, etc. Very soon we will find the results.

Dear Sangom,

I think you are being a trifle naïve here. The incentives that you suggest such as preference to college admissions, jobs, etc are already available to a vast majority of population. These privileges are conferred based on caste. Why would these people give these up to live up in auroville-type communities? Second, the govt won't be able to confer such benefits without earning the wrath of such privileged castes. Your proposal therefore is dead on arrival.

 

[vgane]

Coming to names in Tamil Nadu, we start with initial which represent Fathers name and then your name

When I landed in North India I was asked what did the initial stand for...So in many places they started calling me with the expanded initial as that represented First name as per them

Thats when I realised the names get interchanged in the North

This confusion was reflected in my first passport too also where for First name I put in my expanded initial

When I recollect this I realized how stupid I was!

 

[wrongan]

Removing caste surnames from all public discourses is surely one way of making the future generations do not remember "caste" often. I suggest that the governments (central and state) should take steps to set up "communities" (like the Auroville in Pondichery) in which "caste" will be not there at all in any aspect of life - from birth to death. People opting to live in such communities should be given preference to professional college admissions, government jobs, etc. Very soon we will find the results.

-Generally The Government is run by Non gratitude people.They need not permit any institution with caste name from today on wards.But it is funny to call krishnamachary as krishnama. who will know krishnama. Pachaiappa mudaliyar is well known as pachaiappa But how many people will really know Sir.PS Sivaswamy Iyer If his institutions are named sivasamy school.It is an act of dis gratitude to people who has done Charity.If Buildings constructed with with public money can be named after a politician what is wrong in retaining the name of the donar in the name as he was known when he was alive.

 

[sangom]

Sangomji,
It was you who brought Government and auroville together. Government imposed camps are forced, Auroville on the other hand is volunteer grouping.

You wanted government to create the grouping it is similar to internment camps. So if it is shameful it was your creation.

I wrote that government should come forward, just as the then government of Pondichery (French) had done it for Shri Aurobindo Ghosh. Perhaps you have no such noble examples in your mind and have only the Nazi and Mao examples to cite. It is shameful to be so.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom,

I think you are being a trifle naïve here. The incentives that you suggest such as preference to college admissions, jobs, etc are already available to a vast majority of population. These privileges are conferred based on caste. Why would these people give these up to live up in auroville-type communities? Second, the govt won't be able to confer such benefits without earning the wrath of such privileged castes. Your proposal therefore is dead on arrival.

Shri KB,

I agree that what you say makes sense. But the "government" can be all powerful, especially if it can somehow make a majority (as was seen in the case of the nuclear treaty) and legislate anything and everything except ordering the sun to rise in the north!! So, my suggestion is also feasible, for example, if the present 'unreserved' middle classes/castes - which form a powerful vote bank - desire and support such a move.

 

[prasad1]

I wrote that government should come forward, just as the then government of Pondichery (French) had done it for Shri Aurobindo Ghosh. Perhaps you have no such noble examples in your mind and have only the Nazi and Mao examples to cite. It is shameful to be so.

You are the one who cribs about anything government does. In india the majority of Government sponsored projects are bungled by politicians. If you thought government was so powerful as to wish away all caste, it would have happened. It did not happen shows you that government is only a representative of the people (some times).
On one hand you cry about government role, and on the other hand you want government to control everyday life. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Shri KB,
I agree that what you say makes sense. But the "government" can be all powerful, especially if it can somehow make a majority (as was seen in the case of the nuclear treaty) and legislate anything and everything except ordering the sun to rise in the north!! So, my suggestion is also feasible, for example, if the present 'unreserved' middle classes/castes - which form a powerful vote bank - desire and support such a move.

Dear Sangom,

I am only pointing out that we are seeing the exact opposite trend. I am sure you are following happenings in Maharashtra. I think the Marathas will soon be able to become privileged class at the expense of general classes. Elsewhere we have castes/communities who already have reservations fighting for more exclusive benefits - the Jats, Gujjars, the religious minorities in general and muslims in particular.

The example that you quoted - the nuclear treaty is a big ticket item much like inflation, corruption, national security, infrastructure etc. The politicians can do as they wish on these items precisely because the constituency which worries about these things are an insignificant minority. Of course, the neglecting of these items will be the cause of India's ruin!