"Complicatedism"

[renuka]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

I was just wondering if we are actually practicing "Complicatedism" instead of Hinduism.

Isn't there a way where one can discard all sorts of "Ism" in Hinduism itself and start to focus of what is actually needed.

Cultural practices have at times corrupted even the true essence of knowing the truth cos lots of time is wasted on maintaining culture when that time can be used to serve society.

Some argue that all rites and rituals are to tame the mind but does religion actually change a person? I do not think so.

Being overtly religious at times causes Human Values to decline.

All sages and gurus know that God is Within but yet encourage external search with excuses that we can not perceive God directly without going thorough step by step.

Well at times.. some have knocked the University of Religion..yet the degree is what is learnt in LKG..so it the never ending cycle of not understanding anything.

There is some vital ingredient missing in the present day scenario.

I am not finding fault with anything..I am no Atheist..it is just that too many threads in the fabric of present day Hinduism only weaves a shroud that might actually cover our thinking capacity.

Sometimes I feel to actually get to know God within us we need to discard religion.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Doc

You are more than just 'correct' here. I suggest you read " Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance "
- ZAMM in short.

It's there.

Yay Yem

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Bravo dear Renu! :clap2:

You have hit the nail on its head and on the coffin too! :smash:

The more people KNOW
the more they compare and contrast.:suspicious:

Who can excel in bhakti of Kannappa naayanaar
who did not even know what or who was a god??? :angel:

Faith, Trust and Love are the keywords
and not what we find sprawled everywhere all the time. :heh:

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

So the right bait is needed :fish2:

to bring the V.T. from its hideout!!!

 

[prasad1]

I was just wondering if we are actually practicing "Complicatedism" instead of Hinduism.

Isn't there a way where one can discard all sorts of "Ism" in Hinduism itself and start to focus of what is actually needed.

Cultural practices have at times corrupted even the true essence of knowing the truth cos lots of time is wasted on maintaining culture when that time can be used to serve society.

Some argue that all rites and rituals are to tame the mind but does religion actually change a person? I do not think so.

Being overtly religious at times causes Human Values to decline.

All sages and gurus know that God is Within but yet encourage external search with excuses that we can not perceive God directly without going thorough step by step.

Well at times.. some have knocked the University of Religion..yet the degree is what is learnt in LKG..so it the never ending cycle of not understanding anything.

There is some vital ingredient missing in the present day scenario.

I am not finding fault with anything..I am no Atheist..it is just that too many threads in the fabric of present day Hinduism only weaves a shroud that might actually cover our thinking capacity.

Sometimes I feel to actually get to know God within us we need to discard religion.

I agree with you. To this extent please read Kabirpanth.

 

[sangom]

Sometimes I feel to actually get to know God within us we need to discard religion.

Smt. Renukaji,

You have started treading the same path as I did.

 

[renuka]

I agree with you. To this extent please read Kabirpanth.

Dear Prasad ji,

I have been reading some basic introduction of Lord Buddha's teachings(I am not calling it Buddhism becos I do not think that He wanted to start any "Ism")

His words are very Upanishadic and Vedantic..user friendly and teaches all about self and self discovery.

I feel Vedanta/Bhagavad Geeta/Lord Buddha's teachings make a good guide for mankind.

Since now you recommended Kabirpanth..I would start reading that too.

 

[renuka]

Smt. Renukaji,

You have started treading the same path as I did.

Dear Sangom ji,

Something changed my mind yesterday cos someone asked me which deity is my family kula deivam and started to make it sound that I am neglecting the worship of Kula Deivam and why I do not have a pic of Kula deivam and that started me thinking why why why??

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom ji,

Something changed my mind yesterday cos someone asked me which deity is my family kula deivam and started to make it sound that I am neglecting the worship of Kula Deivam and why I do not have a pic of Kula deivam and that started me thinking why why why??

If you read Buddha (Access to Insight) you may end up as even an atheist from the present "complicatedism" viewpoint. So, kindly try to remain as agnostic.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sangom ji,

Something changed my mind yesterday cos someone asked me which deity is my family kula deivam and started to make it sound that I am neglecting the worship of Kula Deivam and why I do not have a pic of Kula deivam and that started me thinking why why why??

We do not have a kuladeavam. We go to all and any temple, gurudwara, or church. I still think of the same Brahmam. In that respect I too do not believe in the Traditional God (the father, or savior). I am not an atheist, but at the same time I too feel that I do not belong to any organized religion.

 

[Govinda]

We do not have a kuladeavam. We go to all and any temple, gurudwara, or church. I still think of the same Brahmam. In that respect I too do not believe in the Traditional God (the father, or savior). I am not an atheist, but at the same time I too feel that I do not belong to any organized religion.

Prasad Ji,I understand the fanaticism and the commercial benefits behind any organized religion. As a Brahmin/devout Hindu, you cannot deprive Brahman of His no-second supremacy! [bringing in all that devas/cit/imaginary personalities to the same level of One Surpassing Cause of ALL] Rethink Again!

 

[Govinda]

Dear Prasad ji,Since now you recommended Kabirpanth..I would start reading that too.

Renuka,This Sant Kabir quote is more Upanishadic or vaishnavic, in the sense that One can really know anythingabout that Supreme Person only by His grace , through the qualified Guru.

जैसे तिल में तॆल है, ज्यों चक‍मक में आग ।तेरा सायी तुझ में है, तू जाग सकै तो जाग ॥—संत कबीर

The above doha, means that 'Like there is oil in the seed, fire in that flammable wood, your Lord is within you, if you can find Him yourself'. This indirectly suggests that, you cannot know Him on your own, unless there is an external cause - an expeller for the seed or a fire for the wood! So, the external cause, is the Guru, who makes you realized the inner-self better!! Again like that choice of organized religion, the choice of qualified guru, family, satsang, friends, other encounters are all based on our Karma. So, one still have the free-will, intellect to chose those possibly at our own will! [except the choice of birth and family]!

 

[prasad1]

Prasad Ji,I understand the fanaticism and the commercial benefits behind any organized religion. As a Brahmin/devout Hindu, you cannot deprive Brahman of His no-second supremacy! [bringing in all that devas/cit/imaginary personalities to the same level of One Surpassing Cause of ALL] Rethink Again!

I came to my conclusions after thinking. I have been in this site, and still have the same philosophy. I have not changed my position. If you are suggesting that I will end up somewhere less that one with Brahmam, so be it.

 

[Govinda]

I came to my conclusions after thinking. I have been in this site, and still have the same philosophy. I have not changed my position. If you are suggesting that I will end up somewhere less that one with Brahmam, so be it.

Prasad Ji, What you dont understand is that 'Wherever you go, our intelligence based on Karma , will follow through'. So unless we fix that intelligence followed by Qualities, that Karma will still be in our shadow, even if we get isolated and retire to the Himalayas. We will be attached to the trees, snow and the beautiful mountain-deers running around. Such, is the magnificience (maya) of Lord's power in the matter!! So, even while we are in the grihasthAsrama, devote yourself to that Supreme Being's Nature (beauty, power, supremacy), and you will gain that balanced mind, to help, educate the other ignorant defiant masses around.

If you are suggesting that I will end up somewhere less that one with Brahmam, so be it.

The problem with Renuka's post and that of Sangom and your virakti about the religiosity, is that you guys do not want to accept the Reality. Though religion plays a part in fanaticism and degradation of values, it is only those who possess such lowly nature cling to those kind of religiosity. Why should everyone be sAdhus, and sants ? What about those other living being, just got upgraded to humanoid species. These people are in the lower rungs, and would be fascinated by some ritualistic behaviours and drive pleasure and experience through them. So, leave them alone, let them graduate on their own pace. P.S: The Ritualistic behaviour refers to pleasure seeking repetitive behaviours, and doesnot refer to the Vaidika karmAs prescribed in the shAtrAs to improve one's jnana and bhakti like sattva gunas

 

[Govinda]

Renuka,

Sometimes I feel to actually get to know God within us we need to discard religion.

Regarding the OP, if all are left without any religion, then they will again come up with their own rules/sutras of following things, and would begin with cults, then overtime there would be many sponsorships and become a bee line called Religion. This is how it happened before, Initially it started with Sanatana Dharam, individually realizing the Creator, then people added up their own faiths, beliefs, traditions, and multiplied!! Wow! you want us to start again!! Just, Wait for the end of this yuga. Plus, Until there is atleast one to do the Sandhya, there will exist the Sun. After that vritra, the demon of blocking atmosphere, will be back, and the earth will lose its power of life!

Some argue that all rites and rituals are to tame the mind but does religion actually change a person? I do not think so.

If the Creator and all the devatas never got tired in taking up avatars, and forms (as sages, sadhus etc.) to educate us agaian and again, why are you guys making a big deal out of variety in the creation? It is our responsibility to educate our family, friends and neighbours about right knowledge, right values, as and when we get chances to do so. All of us have to take part in the service of the creator, through helping each other, beit for wisdom or life situations. Forgive those who are less fortunate (in both wisdom and opportunities) and give them a repeated helping hand! Hang on and dont lose hope upon humanity!!

All sages and gurus know that God is Within but yet encourage external search with excuses that we can not perceive God directly without going thorough step by step.

That is becos, there are 86billion neurons, and only one 'group' of them might lead to Shushma nAdi. We need so many experiences, knowledge practive, roles (various life-births) to attain that hightened realization. How many neurons make a human brain? Billions fewer than we thought | James Randerson | Science | guardian.co.uk So, our sages has suggested so many ways to improve the neuron wiring in the right sense, not firing in the wrong sense. So, Only self experiences [happiness, failures, disappointments, struggles] will help people realize the purpose of existence and fix the neuron-firing.

 

[amala]

If you read Buddha (Access to Insight) you may end up as even an atheist from the present "complicatedism" viewpoint. So, kindly try to remain as agnostic.

As I understand it, Theravadins are silent on the existence of God, and so agnostic anyway.

 

[renuka]

If you read Buddha (Access to Insight) you may end up as even an atheist from the present "complicatedism" viewpoint. So, kindly try to remain as agnostic.

Dear Sangom ji,

My "complicatedism" point of view is not to be agnostic or atheist.

"Complicatedism" has infected all religions of the world.

Even present day Buddishm is infected with Complicatedism.

Man eventually wants to have his say even in the words of God..that is what complicates the whole scenario.

Most of our own Hindus schools of thought actually at times contradict each other and that has further divided the concept of God.

Each school of thought is a person's self discovery...like how a scientist discovers some new drug.

But a school of thought is not and should not be static cos after a few years just like how a scientist realizes that the medication he found has become resistant to bacteria..he will have to move on to discover a new drug.

So same way with the human mind..it really can not have an end point and the path to God might actually best be paved by our own selves eventually.

Freedom of discovering the Truth is what is needed.

We are born to be free and not to be bound.

So when I wrote that to know God within us one might need to discard religion...it is not to become an agnostic or an Athiest...it is just to start the journey to search for the truth...a long long journey which might take countless births.

 

[renuka]

Renuka, Regarding the OP, if all are left without any religion, then they will again come up with their own rules/sutras of following things, and would begin with cults, then overtime there would be many sponsorships and become a bee line called Religion. This is how it happened before, Initially it started with Sanatana Dharam, individually realizing the Creator, then people added up their own faiths, beliefs, traditions, and multiplied!! Wow! you want us to start again!! Just, Wait for the end of this yuga. Plus, Until there is atleast one to do the Sandhya, there will exist the Sun. After that vritra, the demon of blocking atmosphere, will be back, and the earth will lose its power of life! If the Creator and all the devatas never got tired in taking up avatars, and forms (as sages, sadhus etc.) to educate us agaian and again, why are you guys making a big deal out of variety in the creation? It is our responsibility to educate our family, friends and neighbours about right knowledge, right values, as and when we get chances to do so. All of us have to take part in the service of the creator, through helping each other, beit for wisdom or life situations. Forgive those who are less fortunate (in both wisdom and opportunities) and give them a repeated helping hand! Hang on and dont lose hope upon humanity!! That is becos, there are 86billion neurons, and only one 'group' of them might lead to Shushma nAdi. We need so many experiences, knowledge practive, roles (various life-births) to attain that hightened realization. How many neurons make a human brain? Billions fewer than we thought | James Randerson | Science | guardian.co.uk So, our sages has suggested so many ways to improve the neuron wiring in the right sense, not firing in the wrong sense. So, Only self experiences [happiness, failures, disappointments, struggles] will help people realize the purpose of existence and fix the neuron-firing.

Dear Govinda ji,

I have no problems with the concept of God and avatars.

God keeps things simple...Geeta is the best example.

Lord Krishna kept worship and offerings so simple..Phalam,Pushpam,Patram,Toyam.

Geeta is the best guide for mankind.

Avatars keep things simple...its man who make a mess of things.

BTW you wrote this:

The problem with Renuka's post and that of Sangom and your virakti about the religiosity, is that you guys do not want to accept the Reality

You got me all wrong....now where in my OP I mentioned that I do not want to accept Reality..in fact Reality is what I wish to know.

Govinda ji..all I see in your post and reply to me is Rigidity.

As a I said before..God keeps things simple..that is the reason why He descends as an Avatar to re establish simplicity.

Lord Krishna was all the while proving to Uddhava that the simplicity of the Gopikas and their devotion is what really mattered.

Remember the story where once Lord Krishna faked a headache and said the sand beneath the feet of a devotee will cure His headache?

Everyone did not dare give cos they were thinking it is disrespectful to do so.

But the Gopikas did not have second thoughts..they gave the sand beneath their feet to apply on Lord Krishna's head cos their main concern is to cure His headache.

Gopikas were not infected with Complicatedism..all other's were.

I hope you get my point..God is Simple,Man "complicates" Him.

 

[renuka]

So, one still have the free-will, intellect to chose those possibly at our own will! [except the choice of birth and family]!

Dear Govinda ji,

I am surprised you say that one does not have the choice of birth and family.

Karma decides everything.

Karma is verily our own actions and reactions.

So even what looks like a lack of free will is actually our own doing.

Our actions determine our birth/family etc.

We are born in family compatible with our karmic blue print.

Life is a contract which we decided before we were born.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

It is not correct to blame religion for failing to deliver. It is our failure. Just as any student who does not pass an exam if he fails to understand that subject, we have failed to properly understand our scriptures but blame the religion for our failure.

First of all there should be 100% belief in the scriptures. That belief comes if you are able to just see the truth of what is said. Then practice comes easily. If what is said in the scriptures is faithfully followed, I think we would not be complaining about religion.

Let me also say that all the religions say the same universal and eternal truths. The differences are mostly in the details.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

It is not correct to blame religion for failing to deliver. It is our failure. Just as any student who does not pass an exam if he fails to understand that subject, we have failed to properly understand our scriptures but blame the religion for our failure.

First of all there should be 100% belief in the scriptures. That belief comes if you are able to just see the truth of what is said. Then practice comes easily. If what is said in the scriptures is faithfully followed, I think we would not be complaining about religion.

Let me also say that all the religions say the same universal and eternal truths. The differences are mostly in the details.

Dear Sravna,

In my posts I have not blamed religion.

I just did not feel it does much good in the long run all becos men makes things complicated.

Please do not get me wrong.

AM ji recommended me to read a book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and I glanced through and read this quote.

“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

After reading this quote I feel the author is 100% right.

So in a way when we say I 100% believe in God or scriptures it does go to show that we are re affirming what we think..in other words there could be some element of doubt.

So I feel the author wrote that with deep insight that if we believe something there should not be a doubt and does this not agree with our own Sanathana Dharma??


For example..you know your are Sravna..do you keep saying I am Sravna, I have 100% believe and faith that I am Sravna?
If you do that that means you have some element of doubt in you.

So after reading this quote by Robert M Pirsig I feel the meaning of Mahavakya Aham Brahmaasmi is even clearer and we do not have to keep on repeating the fact that I have Faith in God and Scriptures.

Many feel that Lord Buddha was evasive of the concept of God but there is possibility that He knew It(God) and did not have to go on re affirming it and just showed the world the path to know it themselves too.

Let me put in simple words(I do not want to be in preaching mode and start complicating issues!LOL)...Just like the song "I'm Sexy and I know it"

The feeling of God should be like that "Aham Brahmaasmi and I want know it"

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

I am not talking of fanaticism. I am also not saying that we need to keep proclaiming what we know. I am just talking about belief, the opposite of doubt.

I also believe that real belief comes through intuition and not by force.

 

[renuka]

I also believe that real belief comes through intuition and not by force.

Dear Sravna,

Exactly!


Finally only intuition reveals to us the truth.

Religion at times can be forceful.

 

[sangom]

Dear Renuka,

I am not talking of fanaticism. I am also not saying that we need to keep proclaiming what we know. I am just talking about belief, the opposite of doubt.

I also believe that real belief comes through intuition and not by force.

"Belief" is a half-way condition; you don't surely know but yearn to prove that what you "believe" is the truth. "Intuition" is completely different; just as an infant knows how to suckle its mother's breast when it is hungry - to satisfy its hunger; there is no belief, there is "surety" but no logical explanations. Most of us (Govinda, Sravna, etc.,) have been ossified in our indoctrinated beliefs and want to get confirmation every now and then, that our beliefs are correct; that is why such people go on administering their beliefs to anyone and everyone, and also add (when possible) the mediation of a "guru" so that if their advice proves disastrous, it will be possible to shift the blame on to the absence of "guru" or the lack of competence of the "guru" if there has been one!!

Kabir's doha does not mean what Govinda seeks to misinterpret it as: 'Like there is oil in the seed, fire in that flammable wood, your Lord is within you, if you can find Him yourself'. This indirectly suggests that, you cannot know Him on your own, unless there is an external cause - an expeller for the seed or a fire for the wood! So, the external cause, is the Guru, who makes you realized the inner-self better!!

Kabir is sure that our saayee or god is within ourselves and exhorts us to wake up to this truth "जाग सकै तो जाग" (if you can wake up -to this truth, that is - please do.) is the simple and straightforward meaning but Govinda strives to push it through his own (vaishnava) labyrinthian tube and seeks to bring in the "guru" appendage to it. God has, at best, created humans; He has not created a separate set known as gurus. And between God and Man why should such a "broker" be introduced? May be it fits very well with present day Indian state of affairs where middlemen eat away almost everything! and become extremely powerful too.

The earlier one discards organized religion and gurus the easiest it will be to progress spiritually.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Tmt VR

Your post # 4

It's not a question of VT's 'hide-out' - more a sort of an adventurous get-away to meet up some
friends I made at Prayag - these are the Tamilian settlers on the Indo-Burmese border.

Just because of my Brahmin descent, I am being addressed here as 'Sami' - a title I know that I know that I am not
worthy of in any way and it and makes me sqirm with discomfort. There has been no Brahmin here before me,
nor even a vegetarian.

People here are so tough, rugged and rustic yet cute and full of affection. The Rohingyas are a major
problem here.

I am in a different world altogether, Madam. It's amazing to note how many 'worlds' co-exist on
one Planet - simply terrific are the way of the Almighty.

I plan to return to Chennai on 1st May, after darshan of Sri Kamakhya Devi in Guwahati - a dip
in the Brahmaputra, for sure.

Then 1st week June I go to Kosovo [ via Zagreb ] - again to meet up some old acquaintances there.

Yes Mam, turtles do have a way of travelling long distances, making friends, retaining and
relishing relationships.

Sangom Sir already seems to be an advanced practitioner of Zen [ if not a Master already ] and our dear
Doc, seems to be getting there.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem