"Complicatedism"

[Visalakshi Ramani]

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Dear adventure-seeking V.T !

I never realized that we can make our lives one long uninterrupted quest for adventure. WOW!!!
What an amazing energy swamiji!:hail:

Don't squirm now. :nono:
After all you energy baffles me and it deserves some praise. :clap2:

Tough, rugged and rustic people are usually more affectionate and less pretentious.

Enjoy their company when they hold you in such high regards.

The forum is dull without you. :bored:

So I hope you will join us soon and not just continue to be a V.T all the time!!!

Foot note: V.T = Visiting Turtle (a nickname our friend has taken on himself)

 

[sangom]

Dear Tmt VR

Your post # 4

It's not a question of VT's 'hide-out' - more a sort of an adventurous get-away to meet up some
friends I made at Prayag - these are the Tamilian settlers on the Indo-Burmese border.

Just because of my Brahmin descent, I am being addressed here as 'Sami' - a title I know that I know that I am not
worthy of in any way and it and makes me sqirm with discomfort. There has been no Brahmin here before me,
nor even a vegetarian.

People here are so tough, rugged and rustic yet cute and full of affection. The Rohingyas are a major
problem here.

I am in a different world altogether, Madam. It's amazing to note how many 'worlds' co-exist on
one Planet - simply terrific are the way of the Almighty.

I plan to return to Chennai on 1st May, after darshan of Sri Kamakhya Devi in Guwahati - a dip
in the Brahmaputra, for sure.

Then 1st week June I go to Kosovo [ via Zagreb ] - again to meet up some old acquaintances there.

Yes Mam, turtles do have a way of travelling long distances, making friends, retaining and
relishing relationships.

Sangom Sir already seems to be an advanced practitioner of Zen [ if not a Master already ] and our dear
Doc, seems to be getting there.

Guruvethunai
Yay Yem

Shri AM,

When you were giving your despatches from Allahabad I was under the impression that you are a highly religious tabra who (still) perceives the bath at Kumbhmela as a bath in the divine "amrut" which spilled and so on. Now, I know you are different. My best wishes for a very happy stay there and return to Chennai or wherever you would plan to.

Rohingyas (Muslims) are seen as being ethnically cleansed by the Burmese Govt. What is the truth? And what does Aang san Su ci say about it?

 

[Govinda]

Kabir is sure that our saayee or god is within ourselves and exhorts us to wake up to this truth "जाग सकै तो जाग" (if you can wake up -to this truth, that is - please do.) is the simple and straightforward meaning

Sangom Ji,

Here we go. Let us take that doha of Kabir to mean the way you said, 'If you can, wake up to the truth'. I would simply say, one CANNOT.

If so, we wouldn't be born. We are born of karma, meaning, our body organs (sense, action, mind) are all dabbed in karma, that blocks the Luminous, Self-Knowing Atma. Acc. to Upanishads, Our true self is like the Lustrous Gem, but pathetically dusty.

We should clear ourselves off of this karma (that is dispersed in every sense-organ and mind like the 'oil in the seed'). This is no "belief", this is just "common-sense" , Else, why would anyone be born, if they
all have known or realized the TRUTH? [Renuka, simply referred this COMMON-SENSE as Intuition]

Even somewhat-balanced people like us, experience many instances of anger or love or passion, our intellect gets completely blocked by a dark net! and we wouldn't want to go farther than those emotions, and evaluate the situation. After a lapse of that moment, we would feel disgusted by such obscurity of thought. So, only various experiences, various births, various roles, we should take to learn and rid of the VEIL of karma. Our mind is like the dusty mirror. Unless we clean it off with Cold Vinegar, we can't see the reflection of our True Self. Acc. to Upanishads, Our true self is like the Lustrous Gem buried inside the 'greasy' dust of Karma.

If we are at a better level of Jnana, (spread over the body, organs, mind) we get an appropriate birth (With the grace of the Creator) and get access to the right knowledge. As our worst part of karma has been cleared to some extent, the Self-Luminous Atma (dharmi-jnana), through the right Intellect/senses (Dharma-jnana), is able to immediately cling to or get attracted to the TRUTH/FACT.

Whereas, There exists NithyaSuris, the great MahAtmAs, who never have incurred any karma. Those holy souls, assist in the emancipation of the souls/Jivas, by taking birth as sages or some acharyas and revealing the right knowledge through srutis and other authoritative texts. They dont act in any self-inteterst nor for any benefit or glory. Unless our external knowledge (dharma jnana) has expanded to a required level, Our Self cannot grasp or see the TRUTH.

Such expansion, is not taking a dip in the ganges or wearing Rose scent. One should be prepared to tune their senses/mind towards the right goal of Knowing the Inner Self (self and ParamAtma).

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Sangom Sir

Your post # 27.

I am sorry I gave you that impression - No way, I never was a hardcore, ritualistic TamBram. True, I have done
and continue to do a lot of bizarre things and go to weird places. But I don't think that I'd ever get what I
got, in those Ashrams/Mutts/Adheenams because I abhor any and all forms of regimented 'religion'

Philosophies, Theories and Jargon are for the intellectuals and intellectuals debate, discuss, describe, analyse
and write about them. And I am no intellectual .

While philosophy is for the intellectual, spiritualism is for the real seeker.

As a 'practicing-ritualist-turned-agnositc', I am sure you read not just the lines, but also between them.

Having read extensively the Scriptural works of Abrahamic Religions, Our Own, Sikh, Jain, Budhist, Zen and Tao,
I have never been tempted to hold on to any one with any fanatic passion.

The Truth lies elsewhere , and that's where the focus of the Real Seeker is.

Someone, somewhere in this thread had mentioned something about "Choice of a Guru" - Yuck !
One doesn't Choose a Guru - Gurus just HAPPEN. A detailed account of this process is given by
Paramahamsa Yogananda in his Autobiography of a Yogi.

Maybe sometime, somewhere our paths will meet when I could possibly get some insights from
a Zen Master.

Salutations to a Zen Master.

Yay Yem

 

[renuka]

'If you can, wake up to the truth'. I would simply say, one CANNOT.

Our Self cannot grasp or see the TRUTH.

Dear Govinda ji,

If one can wake up in the morning to the sound of the rooster crowing..why can't one hear the call of God within?

One can only elevate himself by himself and degrade himself by his own self..so there is nothing beyond the reach of the inner self.

 

[Govinda]

Dear Govinda ji,

If one can wake up in the morning to the sound of the rooster crowing..why can't one hear the call of God within?

Waking up to external sounds, is the right sense perception and an input faculty, needed for the mind to process information. These people are in the normal spectrum. Among these normal ones, some cannot focus or be devoted, just reading a book for a longer period becomes a daunting task.

Look up for these, conditions, Tinnitus, Schizophrenia , people hear within inside of their ears, sounds more like a brain related phenomenon, which may be physiological (food-intake), structural (damaged ear nerves) or psychological (obsession, depression, anxiety etc.)

So, Unless one's mind is made a clean mirror, one cannot hear one's own self. Back to my old post

So, repeatedly feed the senses/faculties of mind with good values, facts, common-sense topics, logic. And all these
are cognitive, inputs that will influence your brain/mind. They will inturn aid in doing the right actions -karma/conative. Brain is LIKE a muscle, it can be trained any way, forward or reverse. Overtime, one will develop clarity of mind and then their decisions/choices will be balanced and righteous. Such persons' Self will get in tune with what is TRUTH/FACT, will not yield to emotions that senses or mind desires. This is the dawn of realization.

 

[Govinda]

Anand Manohar,

But I don't think that I'd ever get what I got, in those Ashrams/Mutts/Adheenams .......
Having read extensively ....The Truth lies elsewhere...and that's where the focus of the Real Seeker is.
Someone, somewhere in this thread had mentioned something about "Choice of a Guru" - Yuck !
One doesn't Choose a Guru - Gurus just HAPPEN.

Someone was led to many fronts - physical mutts or knowledge of mutts or access to various
faiths/works...But, still waiting to find the TRUTH....

Meaning.. Though he was lead to GURUS/PATHS, he did not chose, waiting for the Truth! Yuck!

Someone contradicted himself!! And did not know that!

Knowledge is 'knowing things in depth and knowing if they are similar or if they contradict or
are there dependencies'.

If Knowledge is incomplete or inadequate, then Intelligence,' the power to reason or determine the best
among them', FAILS. If one's intelligence fails, they make wrong choices. Which means, their mind cannot
find or grasp the TRUTH. So, the choice is based on the faulty mind, not the TRUTH or FACT.

So, such people needed more experiences, more exposures to right avenues or knowledge sources
[assuming, their intelligence is okay, but knowledge falls short].

But there are cases where knowledge is complete, in case of Smoking tobacco [it has a disclaimer],
but people still chose to smoke. Here, intelligence failed due to weak mind or strong senses. These
people need more training for self-control.

While philosophy is for the intellectual, spiritualism is for the real seeker.

FYI, Philosophy evolved from the disciplined, seeking, practicing, thoughtful minds ......You used jargons, and didnt
know their definitions.

 

[renuka]

Brain is a muscle, it can be trained any way, forward or reverse. .

Dear Govinda,

No wonder you feel its hard to wake up to the Truth.

Cos your brain is a muscle.

The rest of us have neurons!LOL

 

[Govinda]

Dear Govinda,

No wonder you feel its hard to wake up to the Truth!

Cos your brain is a muscle!

The rest of us have neurons!LOL

Oops! I edited it to 'Brain is LIKE a muscle' and intelligence is malleable.
Is the Brain Like a Muscle, Really? - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

That's good nitpicking, But, that does not change the argument!

If mind cannot be changed, then there would be no use of rebirths! The only difference between the realized and unrealized
is the' level of Knowledge/Jnana'.

 

[renuka]

Oops! I edited it to 'Brain is LIKE a muscle' and intelligence is malleable.
Is the Brain Like a Muscle, Really? - Newsweek and The Daily Beast

That's good nitpicking, But, that does not change the argument!

If mind cannot be changed, then there would be no use of rebirths! The only difference between the realized and unrealized
is the' level of Knowledge/Jnana'.

Dear Govinda,

The difference between the unrealized and the realized is the presence or absence of Ahamkara.
Ahamkara is a modification(Vritti) that arises in the mind.


A person can still have a high level of Jnaana but yet have Ahamkara and that makes him as good as a person without Jnaana.

 

[C RAVI]

A true Gnyaani is said to have attained Gnyaanam/Knowledge only when he/she has conquered his/her Ahamkara as well!!

Gnyaanam is not just equal to Knowledge. Gnyanam is a combo of knowledge, wisdom and discipline of mind and body, leading to absolute realization. Once this is achieved, a person is said to have achieved Gnyaanam and is called as Gnyaani.

 

[renuka]

A true Gnyaani is said to have attained Gnyaanam/Knowledge only when he/she has conquered his/her Ahamkara as well!!

Gnyaanam is not just equal to Knowledge. Gnyanam is a combo of knowledge, wisdom and discipline of mind and body, leading to absolute realization. Once this is achieved, a person is said to have achieved Gnyaanam and is called as Gnyaani.

Well said.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Marhaba Sheikh

MOBROOK !

Dear Edu Kondala Vaada,

Your post # 32

You are absolutely correct - I cannot say with any authenticity / sincerity that I have found the TRUTH.

Also true is the fact that I did not learn to drive a motor vehicle by reading the 'Owner's Manual' nor did I
expect water to come gushing out of an almanac, just because the positions of the celestial bodies
indicated a thunderstorm on a particular day.

I suggest you read Leo Tolstoy's short story : Three Hermits - you can google it.

Yay Yem

 

[Raji Ram]

......... Sometimes I feel to actually get to know God within us we need to discard religion.

Oh Renu!
Now you can accept I R weddings! God is in everyone... So why bother about religion! :couch2:

P.S: Since 'simple' becomes 'simplism', 'complicate' becomes 'complicatism'!

Why take the past tense? Just to complicate?

 

[renuka]

Oh Renu!
Now you can accept I R weddings!

Dear RR ji,

LOL! I am already married..so have no idea how an IR marriage would be.

 

[renuka]

Oh Renu!
Now you can accept I R weddings! God is in everyone... So why bother about religion! :couch2:

P.S: Since 'simple' becomes 'simplism', 'complicate' becomes 'complicatism'!

Why take the past tense? Just to complicate?

Dear RR ji,

I have decided who ever my son marries I wont object neither will I accept becos it's his marriage.

We can only object or accept if it is our own marriage.

Frankly speaking we can only attend and be a participant or spectator of a wedding.

Each child finally carves his/her own life including marriage...if he/she feels unhappy of their choice after a while divorce is always an option and one can opt to try again.

As parents I would do the duty of attending his wedding if invited.

 

[Raji Ram]

......... LOL! I am already married..so have no idea how an IR marriage would be.

Dear Renu,

I did not mean your wedding!

You used to panic even when our friend TVK Sir wrote about one I R wedding in his story of two sisters.

I thought you will not panic now because you have realized that God is one and is independent of religion!!

 

[C RAVI]

Absolute Realization can take place any time..Sooner or Later!!

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

I did not mean your wedding!

You used to panic even when our friend TVK Sir wrote about one I R wedding in his story of two sisters.

I thought you will not panic now because you have realized that God is one and is independent of religion!!

Dear RR ji,

You see not everyone will think like me....I can't expect anyone to think that God is one ..but that does not mean I condone conversion.

Conversion means we acknowledge that there is more than One God..hence the need for conversion.

So by discarding complicatedism of religion I would only want to focus on self realization through works of masters like Sathya Sai Baba,Adi Shankara, Lord Buddha, Swami Vivekananda,Swami Yogannanda,Ramana Maharishi,Bhagavad Geeta,Upanishads etc.

But I get what you mean that I did not like the idea of inter religious marriage if one is a die hard fanatic and the other is all embracing than that type of marriage won't be too beneficial for spiritual growth.

But anyway if one wants to be fair and square to all ..one can take a spouse from each religion.

So right now I have Amar...two vacant slots for Akbar and Anthony!LOL

 

[biswa]

I agree. The question is not about whether there is one God or not. Clearly each species or each race cannot have their own God.

The problem is more about whether some group wants to wage "jihad" or "crusade" to try to eliminate another group.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

I think I wrote about this couple sometime back! One Iyer lady married a Christian guy and they have an

agreement that each will follow their own religion! She goes to the temples with children on Fridays and he

goes to the church with children on Sundays! Isn't it strange!! They are my brother's friends.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu,

I think I wrote about this couple sometime back! One Iyer lady married a Christian guy and they have an

agreement that each will follow their own religion! She goes to the temples with children on Fridays and he

goes to the church with children on Sundays! Isn't it strange!! They are my brother's friends.

Dear RR ji,

It take a lot of commitment to lead a dual life and head no where finally.

I have witness inter religious marriages of the Hindu Christian kind where both Temple wedding and Church wedding is done.

The best advise I can give to couples who want to have a IR marriage is just to register marriage and no need for temple or church wedding cos why marry the same person twice!LOL

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Renu,

We have had double weddings in our close family circle too! What irked me was that the Iyer type

wedding - tying of three knots with 'oru pavun' thirumAngalyam - was followed by a church wedding

in the evening, where the bride walked with a bare neck + a grand white gown with low neck cutting!

Why tie the knots and remove it the same evening? It is nothing but கேலிக் கூத்து, imho!! out:

 

[Jaykay767]

wow, what a bizzare discussion on whether one needs religion?

The Zen book is full of nonsense, what has the sun rising example has anything to do with people's fanatical belief in God ? If we all could see God, there will be no Aethist or a religous fanatic. since the Aethist keep saying there is no God, the religious keep saying there is God.

Zen quote from an earlier post - “You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

The priest, teacher, Guru are the ones who teach us & provide us with the path to knowledge !!. They should be worshipped in our true tradition because knowledge is the true wealth.

for one to argue, that I dont need a religion to see God, is like saying, I dont need a teacher to learn. so pl dont send your kids to school, colleges, let them learn on their own from the internet on how to become surgeons !!.

so how does religion help - It builds a strong character, morality, ethics, Good over Bad, tradition, conservativism, control over Greed, desire & guides us in our lives challenges. The Brahman, Atman, Jiva, manam, Ahamkharam, chit etc.. are very advanced concepts in our religion & they provide us the path by which we can go towards self realization. There are 2 paths to reach self realization - one is through the mental plane - Bhakti, Devotion, meditation, the other through physical plane - rituals, yoga etc.. In this path, Guru's are absolutely important to guide us.

for those who dont need Guru's, they are least bothered about self-realization, they just want to meander around in life, pass time in meaningless discussions, have no interest in anything except come on such forums & give some half baked global gyan - like live your life the way you want, religion doesnt matter, dont worry just follow your heart, marry anyone - IR or IC - all are okay, blah blah blah

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

You stated:

The Zen book is full of nonsense, what has sun rising has anything to do with God ?

Just curious. How do you know 'what has sun rising has anything to do with God?', if God exists?

Regards,
KRS