• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

"Complicatedism"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi KRS,

I am referring to the foll quote from an earlier post.

“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”
Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Cheers,
 
wow, what a bizzare discussion on whether one needs religion?

The Zen book is full of nonsense, what has sun rising has anything to do with God ? If we all could see God, there will be no Aethist or a religous fanatic. since the Aethist keep saying there is no God, the religious keep saying there is God.

The priest, teacher, Guru are the ones who teach us & provide us with the path to knowledge !!. They should be worshipped in our true tradition because knowledge is the true wealth.

for one to argue, that I dont need a religion to see God, is like saying, I dont need a teacher to learn. so pl dont send your kids to school, colleges, let them learn on their own from the internet on how to become surgeons !!.

so how does religion help - It builds a strong character, morality, ethics, Good over Bad, tradition, conservativism, control over Greed, desire & guides us in our lives challenges. The Brahman, Atman, Jiva, manam, Ahamkharam, chit etc.. are very advanced concepts in our religion & they provide us the path by which we can go towards self realization. There are 2 paths to reach self realization - one is through the mental plane - Bhakti, Devotion, meditation, the other through physical plane - rituals, yoga etc.. In this path, Guru's are absolutely important to guide us.

for those who dont need Guru's, they are least bothered about self-realization, they just want to meander around in life, pass time in meaningless discussions, have no interest in anything except come on such forums & give some half baked global gyan - like live your life the way you want, religion doesnt matter, dont worry just follow your heart, marry anyone - IR or IC - all are okay, blah blah blah

Dear Jaykay,

Welcome to the discussion.

You see you have misunderstood the whole thread.

The thread is all about God and self discovery.

Religion sometimes complicates the journey of self discovery.

For all that much you speak about the need for religion..you yourself feel that "what has the rising sun got to do with God?"

LOL! you just contradicted yourself.

So that means you have divorced God from the sun?

So that means that God is only in heaven??


The Sun is the visible form of God's power.

Adhi Deva Namasthubyam Praseeda Mama Bhaskara
Divakara Namastubhyam Prabhakara Namostute.


One might need a teacher to show us the path but the teacher is not religion.
Teacher is a remover of darkness.

The word Guru itself means remover of darkness..it does not denote religion anywhere even in the definition.
 
Last edited:
Hi Renuka,

Let me clarify - I was referring to the Zen quote which says - people are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence. so I was making my statement in that context - not contradicting myself.

firstly, religion does not complicate the self discovery. It actually provides a platform & path for self discovery.

Second, you would not be in this state of awareness without your religious & spiritual leanings.

I would be keen to know how religion complicates the journey to self discovery ? I could not find points subtantiating this in the earlier posts - maybe I just scanned through it.

Cheers,
 
Just corrected my earlier post.

I meant to say - what has the sun rising example has anything to do with people's fanatical belief in God ? If we all could see God, there will be no Aethist or a religous fanatic. since the Aethist keep saying there is no God, the religious keep saying there is God.

Zen quote from an earlier post - “You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”
Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

So, please elaborate why you think that this quote is not correct, please.

Regards,
KRS


Hi KRS,

I am referring to the foll quote from an earlier post.

“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”
Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Cheers,
 
I would be keen to know how religion complicates the journey to self discovery ? I could not find points subtantiating this in the earlier posts - maybe I just scanned through it.

Cheers,


Dear Jaykay,

I had written some points earlier but anyway here it is.

Note: This is my personal view on why religion complicates self discovery.
I am not finding fault with Vedas and God..so please read this with an open mind.

1)The word Religion actually is an English word.
In Sanskrit we use the word 'Mata/Matam' meaning "thought/opinion"
Many a times we read the word Mama Mata in religious text denoting "My opinion"

Ancients were never creating new religions but they were just Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuda Vadantifying their understanding of Sanathana Dharma and this was done to suit the time,place and the understanding of the people of that time.

If we see even Vedic Hymns..it starts off as praising nature..forces of nature and later on deifying these forces of nature and giving them a name and elevating them to a status of a deva.

Then we can see that many hymns are for securing grains, cattle, progeny etc..later on we have hymns requesting fame,power and higher place in heavens etc..then we have the Jnaana portion that deals with Brahman and the concept of Realizing Brahman.


Ok ..what I am trying to say is at no one point there arose a need for religion..Vedic lifestyle seemed to be self discovery in action.

It was never meant to be static as you can see from the evolution of thought of the seers and sages.

Even the Shad Darshanas at times contradicted each other.

It did not mean that one seer was right and the other was wrong.

It is just that each one of them was penning their thoughts to aid mankind progress and understanding.

Like I wrote in my earlier posts that when a scientist discovers a new drug and later on after a while the drug becomes resistant to bacteria he has to move on to discover a new drug or how like a caterpillar moves from one blade of grass to another.

But what we have today is static thinking and the search for God is still going on in circles and only outward focus is stressed upon.

Very few Gurus actually encourage people to look within.

Everyone gives excuses that "you are not ready..you need to do this and that to purify your mind etc"

Further more each one holds on to their Teachings as tight as the grip of death.

When we travel in a boat to go across the river..we get into the boat and sail across the river and finally get down and go to the other side of the river...so same way with Teachings of Religion..it is meant to be raft to take us across the ocean of Samsara and we are supposed to get down and leave the raft of religion behind and not hold on to it..by holding on to a raft no one gets across anywhere.

Religion is fine up to a certain level but if one holds on to it an refuses to get down from it that is when the person becomes infected with complicatedism.

This is what I mean by "To realize God one needs to give up Religion"


Just to add...we can not be too sure that the journey ends after we cross the ocean of Samsara..for all we know that is when the journey actually begins.
 
Last edited:
Dear KRS,

This quote is not correct - because you are trying to compare what can be "seen" versus "not seen". Just because God cannot be seen does not mean the religious faiths are in doubt. if we counter argue that Sun itself is God's creation, you know what will be the reaction from these guys - where is the proof etc.... so the Zen book is full of nonsense & does not add any value to anyone with such useless arguments.

“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”
Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Cheers,
 
Hi Renuka,

Just because the differnt religious texts give differnt paths to self-realization, does not mean religion is complicating the self disscovery process.

so differnt people choose differnt texts & follow them. all you have to do is to pick one the paths (margas) & then go towards self discovery.

Cheers,
 
Hi Renuka,

Just because the differnt religious texts give differnt paths to self-realization, does not mean religion is complicating the self disscovery process.

so differnt people choose differnt texts & follow them. all you have to do is to pick one the paths (margas) & then go towards self discovery.

Cheers,

Dear JK,

That is not what I meant...you see there can be even 100 Paths that lead to God and all can be right too but complicatedism is about Holding On and Not Giving up that Path eventually.

So that forms a barrier to realize God.

I am not finding fault with any path but we just need to realize that is just a path and nothing more

Just like how a person wearing barrier method of contraception can not cause conception.

Only when the barrier is removed conception can take place..so same way..only when the barrier of religion is removed we can impregnate ourselves with the concept of God in the true sense.
 
Last edited:
Hi Renuka,

There is a lot of noise around religion due to the fanatical followers, radical right wingers, fake swamijis etc.. so these distractions can affect the faithful.

However the fundamental purpose of religion & its texts are to be a guiding path/light to self-realization, so it is incorrect to come to the conclusion that they are the barriers to reach God.

Also your example on religion being a raft to take us from one end of the river to another is incorrect - the religious journey itself is the end !! & in this Journey, you experience HIM in many many forms.

Also how does one impregnate oneself the concept of God - it is through religion, Bhakti - Devotion, etc..

Cheers,
 
so when Bhakthi increases, the devoted will see HIM in many of the day to day interactions ! similarly when you follow the path of Yoga or meditation, you will see HIM via physical or spiritual experiences.
 
...... 1.You see not everyone will think like me....I can't expect anyone to think that God is one ..but that does not mean I condone conversion.

Conversion means we acknowledge that there is more than One God..hence the need for conversion.

2. So by discarding complicatedism of religion I would only want to focus on self realization through works of masters like Sathya Sai Baba,Adi Shankara, Lord Buddha, Swami Vivekananda,Swami Yogannanda,Ramana Maharishi,Bhagavad Geeta,Upanishads etc.

3. But I get what you mean that I did not like the idea of inter religious marriage if one is a die hard fanatic and the other is all embracing than that type of marriage won't be too beneficial for spiritual growth.

4. But anyway if one wants to be fair and square to all ..one can take a spouse from each religion.

So right now I have Amar...two vacant slots for Akbar and Anthony!LOL
Dear Renu,

1. Most of the Hindu theists have an Ishta Devatha, though it is said the God is one! Even if a saivite weds

a vishnavite, the couple may have to compromise in the way they pray! So even in same religion weddings,

it is accepted that there are many forms for God / Goddess!

2. Most of the people pray only to get benefits or to get peace of mind. They don't need self realization!

3. Even in the same religion weddings, one of the spouses might be an atheist! BTW who needs spiritual growth?

4. Oh! That reminds me of Panchali who wanted a husband with five virtues and ended up marrying the Pandavas!

No one is perfect in this world and accepting the spouse as he / she is, leads to a successful wedded life. :D
 
Dear Mr.Jaykay,


I agree with many of your recent posts here..

Religion can never complicate!! It in fact facilitates one towards his/her spiritual path.

No matter how fanatically we are Theist, we have to agree that existence of God is based on our strong Belief system, based on mutual sharing of spiritual and life time experiences

Once we are born and gain conscious, we need a system to get into spirituality in a specific way, from the scratch. Its only a specific belief system as a Religion that can saw a seed of spirituality and let it grow towards the right direction in due course of time.

All that exaggerates, complicates and devastates is the "Complicatedism" of Human's infected Brains. This super intellectual and infected Human Brain is the one that goes rampant in establishing superiority over the other and creates havoc.

If humans honestly try to understand their spiritual path/religion (all the followers of different paths that all directs towards one truth and guides all to be true human), in their true search towards finding GOD in Oneself, In Others & In The Whole Creation, there would not be any atrocities across the Globe in the name of Religion.

The simple principle that humans should follow globally is - "Live & Let Live". Only when one fingers the other, the other starts drilling in retaliation. In this land of Human Survival with infected brains among certain folks, there can be numerous reasons, ways and means to indulge in such fingering and drilling and just to avoid that nothing can be shunned to be deprived with.

 
Last edited:
Dear Renu,

1. Most of the Hindu theists have an Ishta Devatha, though it is said the God is one! Even if a saivite weds

a vishnavite, the couple may have to compromise in the way they pray! So even in same religion weddings,

it is accepted that there are many forms for God / Goddess!

2. Most of the people pray only to get benefits or to get peace of mind. They don't need self realization!

3. Even in the same religion weddings, one of the spouses might be an atheist! BTW who needs spiritual growth?

4. Oh! That reminds me of Panchali who wanted a husband with five virtues and ended up marrying the Pandavas!

No one is perfect in this world and accepting the spouse as he / she is, leads to a successful wedded life. :D

Dear RR ji,

1)Your 1st point reminds me of the question my late MIL asked me when she came to view me.
She asked me "who is your ishta devata"?

And I said God.
She again asked me "I mean which god you pray too..is it Krishna,Shiva,Amman etc"

I told her again "yes I understand what you mean but I dont have an Ishta..I like all forms but when I pray I just think of God as God alone and try not to think of a specific name"



2)Point No 2..well so far I have rarely or never prayed for self gain.I am being truthful here.I have never prayed for money or success in my life.
I have so far mainly prayed for God to give me a clear mind to understand Him better.
Yes I have prayed specifically in times of acute danger but still I leave it to God to decide what is best for me.

I have prayed for others like friends when they need help and unknown people like when the neighbourhood kid got kidnapped and murdered..everyone was hoping he would be found but poor child was found dead.

In fact just a few days ago one of my friends asked me if I have a pic of goddess Lakshmi in my house and I realized only then that I did not have one.

She was shocked and she asked me "how can you not have a pic of a Lakshmi? How will wealth and luck come to you?
Which female goddess pic you have?"

I replied that I have Saraswati in my altar cos I like her calmness and the Veena.

Then she asked me "why you dont have Lakshmi?"

I said "dont know..never thought of Lakshmi cos I somehow did not feel attracted to that form of God"

3)Your 3rd point...one can ask from beginning if a person is an Atheist..so we can decide not to marry an Atheist.
In my college all guys used to impress us girls by taking us to temples on 1st or 2nd date itself!LOL

It was like this..."if you want to go on temple tour..get a boyfriend..he will take you right from Shringeri to Mukambika"

So never met,dated or married an Atheist!LOL

BTW everyone needs spiritual growth eventually that is the purpose of our human birth.

4)Doing house work and juggling career and house can be tiring..so polyandry will be a welcome change to get work done.
But one needs to be fair and square..so it has to be polyandry and polygamy!LOL

Yes you are right...no one is perfect hence we take birth in this world.
 
Last edited:
Dear Mr.Jaykay,


I agree with many of your recent posts here..

Religion can never complicate!! It in fact facilitates one towards his/her spiritual path.

No matter how fanatically we are Theist, we have to agree that existence of God is based on our strong Belief system, based on mutual sharing of spiritual and life time experiences

Once we are born and gain conscious, we need a system to get into spirituality in a specific way, from the scratch. Its only a specific belief system as a Religion that can saw a seed of spirituality and let it grow towards the right direction in due course of time.

All that exaggerates, complicates and devastates is the "Complicatedism" of Human's infected Brains. This super intellectual and infected Human Brain is the one that goes rampant in establishing superiority over the other and creates havoc.

If humans honestly try to understand their spiritual path/religion (all the followers of different paths that all directs towards one truth and guides all to be true human), in their true search towards finding GOD in Oneself, In Others & In The Whole Creation, there would not be any atrocities across the Globe in the name of Religion.

The simple principle that humans should follow globally is - "Live & Let Live". Only when one fingers the other, the other starts drilling in retaliation. In this land of Human Survival with infected brains among certain folks, there can be numerous reasons, ways and means to indulge in such fingering and drilling and just to avoid that nothing can be shunned to be deprived with.


Dear Ravi,

Yes you are right..the Encephalitis caused by Complicatedism is indeed dangerous.
 

I don't think God will appear before me! But my eyes get wet when I sing / teach some songs.

And I have a very strong belief in the 'Shakthi Vinayaka' in our colony temple! :pray2:

P.S: Please don't ask me which God I prayed before settling down in Sing. Chennai!! :D
 

I don't think God will appear before me! But my eyes get wet when I sing / teach some songs.

And I have a very strong belief in the 'Shakthi Vinayaka' in our colony temple! :pray2:

P.S: Please don't ask me which God I prayed before settling down in Sing. Chennai!! :D

Dear RR ji,

Why do you say God wont appear in front of your eyes?

Don't you teach children music??

Isn't music and children also God(till they become teens!LOL)
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

Zen is an established Buddhist religious practice towards liberation, that millions around the world follow and practice. Practice is the seminal word here, because that is what is most important for the followers. In fact, the root of the word 'Zen' is the Sanskrit word 'Dhyana'. Zen, in fact, is a Guru based religion.

One of the core teachings of Buddha is about living with the choice of 'middle path'.

This is why the author talks about the 'political and 'religious' fanaticism and dogma. Zen rejects any 'theoretical' teachings towards self realization.

It seems to me, you are mistaking the statement as an atheist statement. In my opinion, that is not correct.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS,

This quote is not correct - because you are trying to compare what can be "seen" versus "not seen". Just because God cannot be seen does not mean the religious faiths are in doubt. if we counter argue that Sun itself is God's creation, you know what will be the reaction from these guys - where is the proof etc.... so the Zen book is full of nonsense & does not add any value to anyone with such useless arguments.

“You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt.”
Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Cheers,
 
Last edited:
for those who dont need Guru's, they are least bothered about self-realization, they just want to meander around in life, pass time in meaningless discussions, have no interest in anything except come on such forums & give some half baked global gyan - like live your life the way you want, religion doesnt matter, dont worry just follow your heart, marry anyone - IR or IC - all are okay, blah blah blah

Shri jaykay767,

2. Why is "self-realization" necessary? And, do you think that all those who say "self-realization" is a must, definitely get that and do not, to put it in your own words, "meander around in life, pass time in meaningless discussions, have no interest in anything."?

3. If god had wanted humans to get god-realization then would not that god himself input that into one of the deepest recesses of the human psyche? Has god done so, in your learned view or has he not? If god has done so, where is the need for a guru/teacher or religions themselves? Is there any religion given out by god himself?


 
Dear KRS,

I am referring to Robert's interpretation of Zen & the many inferences he makes, not to the Zen theology itself.

Cheers,
 
Hi Sangom,

yes, self realization is a must, whether we attain in this Jamna or the next or the next ... thats the salvation for our souls. whether Others believe or not is irrelevant, that doesnt change the belief of the religious & faithful.

Religion is a based on the core teachings of the greatest Guru's in this world - Adi Shankara, Jesus, Prophet etc.. so what is wrong in this ?. They are the guiding force for others to seek self realization. God wants all of us to go through this journey & hence has passed on this wisdom to the many Guru's in this world.

As I said earlier, just because there are a few radical right wingers in all religion does not change the core teachings/knowledge & path to self realization.

Cheers,
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Latest ads

Back
Top