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"Complicatedism"

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Music will lead to salvation if the bhakti is as glorious as of these saints.

th


Krishnn Chaitanya maha prabhu
 
Or Hariharji!

th


These saints dissolved their personal identity in bhakti expressed as music with abandon and merged with God.

Today music is a hot-selling-product. I believe that the peru-pona-vidhvaans charge by the hour/ by the number of songs learned (whichever is more) and will switch on the electronic tampura only when the payment for a sessions is ~500Rs.

So much for love of God and bhakti leading to salvation!!!

Children learn to compete in the various contests and teacher mint
money selling their knowledge both nationally and internationally.
 
Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

Then, please elaborate what interpretations and inferences he is making that are opposite to Zen theology, please.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS, Pl refer to the following - In its introduction, Pirsig explains that, despite its title, "it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either." Cheers,
 
........ Children learn to compete in the various contests and teacher mint
money selling their knowledge both nationally and internationally.
The parents of children want to get popularity.
And the teachers make hay while the sun shines! :popcorn:

They know that singing for bhakthi ALONE will not provide money for their living! :)
 
Hi Sangom,

yes, self realization is a must, whether we attain in this Jamna or the next or the next ... thats the salvation for our souls. whether Others believe or not is irrelevant, that doesnt change the belief of the religious & faithful.

So, Shri Jaykay, you agree that "self-realization" is salvation of the Christians and these are all belief of the "religious & faithful". Is there any evidence other than such belief that "self-realization" is considered essential, say, for example by our vedas?

Religion is a based on the core teachings of the greatest Guru's in this world - Adi Shankara, Jesus, Prophet etc.. so what is wrong in this ?. They are the guiding force for others to seek self realization. God wants all of us to go through this journey & hence has passed on this wisdom to the many Guru's in this world.

Will you kindly furnish references for Jesus and Prophet Mohammad recommending "self-realization" as a must for their followers? To the best of my knowledge neither our three vedas, nor Christianity & Islam talk about "self-realization".
 
The parents of children want to get popularity.
And the teachers make hay while the sun shines! :popcorn:

They know that singing for bhakthi ALONE will not provide money for their living! :)

True! Those who make a living out of music
can forget getting salvation out of their music.

Nidhi saala sukhama??? raamudu

sannidhi seva sukhamaa???

nijamukha baluku manasaa!!!

This was the attitude of the trinity in music!!!
 
Dear Sri Jaykay Ji,

Exactly - this is why I wanted to know why you have such harsh words against Robert!

He is trying to make sense about linking science and religion, in his book.

This is why, it did not make sense, reading your posts. I thought you try to bridge between science and religion.

So, what am I missing here/

Regards,
KRS


Dear KRS, Pl refer to the following - In its introduction, Pirsig explains that, despite its title, "it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles, either." Cheers,
 
Dear KRS, This book by Robert has no relevance in theology as explained by him in the introduction. My comments were NOT related to Zen theology. My comments are on "his interpretation" which is full of nonsense. for eg, when he says, people have no doubt (hence no ideological position) because the sun rises in the morn everyday, but defend the religious dogma vehemently - this is a useless, statement - adds no value to anyone. It is like saying - Grass is green, rain falls down on the earth, etc.. If had renamed his book saying it is a good day dreaming book while riding motorcycles across US, instead of linking to Zen, I would have been far less critical. To top this, someone on this forum suggested to read this book so that they can discard religion & reach self realization - LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)
 
Dear KRS, This book by Robert has no relevance in theology as explained by him in the introduction. My comments were NOT related to Zen theology. My comments are on "his interpretation" which is full of nonsense. for eg, when he says, people have no doubt (hence no ideological position) because the sun rises in the morn everyday, but defend the religious dogma vehemently - this is a useless, statement - adds no value to anyone. It is like saying - Grass is green, rain falls down on the earth, etc.. If had renamed his book saying it is a good day dreaming book while riding motorcycles across US, instead of linking to Zen, I would have been far less critical. To top this, someone on this forum suggested to read this book so that they can discard religion & reach self realization - LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)

Dear JK,

I have no idea which school of thought you follow...but I don't know why I get a feeling you could be following Vishishtadvaitam( correct me if I wrong).


Sangom ji had written in one of his posts that when God designed us humans if He wanted us to Realize Him.. He would have made us with a built in mechanism to realize Him eventually.
I fully agree with what Sangom ji wrote.

Ok let me ask you...even Gurujis and Rishis were once upon a time just ordinary beings who observed and focused on their surroundings and realized there is a Higher Entity.

They contemplated..meditated and attained revelation which they shared with others to uplift mankind.

Now let me tell you a simple story...anyone can be endowed with an awakened higher perception.

A few years ago there was a helicopter crash into the jungles of East Malaysia.
The rescue team were finding hard to trace the victims cos the jungle was too dense.

They sought the help of the local natives called Penans who know this jungle inside out.

Penans help to locate the victims and survivors risking their own lives too.

So the government authorities wanted to reward the Penans who helped find the victim/survivors..but the Penans refused and reward of any form...they said "When we render help to others we do it with no expectations of what so ever"

Now these are simple people who cant read and write ..who do not have any so called organized religion but yet their words echoed what Lord Krishna said in Geeta..Karmanyevadhikaraste Ma Phaleshu Kadacana.

No one preached Geeta to them.

We so called organized religion individuals need the Geeta to even know this fact and in this very forum itself many have argued that it is not possible to do action without having expectations.

So now tell me....How did the Penan tribal man know about this??

yes you can argue that the tribal guru must have taught him..but purity of heart can not be taught..it has to come from within.

God speaks through pure hearts cos God has instilled in us a built in system to Realize Him.
 
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Hi Renuka,
Actually, I am a follower of both schools of philosophy - Advaitam & Vishistadvatiam. Both schools of thought can lead to self realization.
To answer Sangom - The soul is the in-built mechanism (life force in all of us is Brahman) to reach self realization. Thats why you find a lot of people after having achieved the basics – food, water & shelter – start focusing on spirituality..
Agree with you as well – all Guru’s were normal human beings till they pursue the path of self realization.
I dont see a contradiction to the so called Organized religion. Just because it is organized, lot of money being spent etc.. does not make the teachings of the Greatest Guru’s – Shankara, Jesus, Prophet wrong !! After all the richest & poorest Church still teach the Bible right ?
I mean we can go to a small temple in a village & gain self realization OR go to a well organized temple like Tirupathi to gain self realization. It does not matter. Of course if people get lost in the trappings, the glamour, etc.. then it is an issue.
So what is religion ? – it is a collection of the ancient wisdom coming down the ages. & this ancient wisdom were coded in many tribes in the past. So it is not surprising that the penans knew about this. Yes, this penan follows the path of God much more than any of us. However that does not mean, we discard religion.
Bhagavad Geeta is a evolution of thought over time & hence contains many of the wisdom from the ages down.
There are many ways to reach HIM – Sanyasi’s discard everything & pursue HIM, Some reach HIM through Bhakti, Devotion, Some others reach him through meditation, some reach him through physical rigor – Yoga, etc.. some reach him through pursuit of knowledge etc..
Cheers,
 
Hi Renuka - I also remember in your earlier note, you mentioned about the tradition of worshipping the family diety. See, these are the ritualistic traditions many of us follow. so why do we do this ?, it is because we want to honor our ancestors & continue the tradition they followed for centuries downwards. These are strong beliefs that helps us/guide us in our lives. if you go to the penans & study them carefully, you will find a num of rituals being performed. so the path of Goodness & God has a num of facets - through ritual tradition, Bhakti, devotion through music etc.. Cheers,
 
Dear Sri Jaykay Ji,

This is very interesting! You cite the author's playful remarks about his fiction (which by the way is a serious work as it employs the Zen philosophy - which by the way has origins to Hinduism - and the implications of Scientific temper as applied to today's living) and yet attack his idea on the grounds of your own theology!

In my opinion, what he is talking about is very profound. One needs to give much respect to Science, because, not only of it's rigor, but also because, it confirms 'reality' as it exists. This is why, we know that this world is a globe and not a flat plate today.

He is trying to match it with the unknown, which is mystical (he calls it 'romantic', pursuant to the western philosophical tradition), and to me this is a great modern philosophical work, how to live with both.

He is talking about political and religious fanaticism, which are based on faith - which can not be proved - as opposed to scientific mindset. He is trying to merge faith, which is not fanatic to the reality of the senses as expressed by science.

This is why I am surprised by your virulent criticism of his work. Do you fall in to the category of a religious fanatic, that he describes?

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS, This book by Robert has no relevance in theology as explained by him in the introduction. My comments were NOT related to Zen theology. My comments are on "his interpretation" which is full of nonsense. for eg, when he says, people have no doubt (hence no ideological position) because the sun rises in the morn everyday, but defend the religious dogma vehemently - this is a useless, statement - adds no value to anyone. It is like saying - Grass is green, rain falls down on the earth, etc.. If had renamed his book saying it is a good day dreaming book while riding motorcycles across US, instead of linking to Zen, I would have been far less critical. To top this, someone on this forum suggested to read this book so that they can discard religion & reach self realization - LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)
 
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Dear KRS, I am surprised by your virulent support of this author. are you related to him by any chance ? or his publisher ? I have a right to voice my opinion & yes, it is a harsh critiscm, so what ? I mean you are based in US right?. so must have heard about 1st amendment? I don't consider a romantic approach to be a serious study or interpretation in theology. you may consider it a great philosophical work - that's your assessment. & I simply don't agree. How does my assessment of calling this book full of nonsense make me a religious fanatic ?
 
Ha! Dear Jaykay767 Ji,

You made statements that you can not back up with logic, and now you resort to personal attack (no, I have no self interest in the author), and hide behind the first amendment of USA of freedom of speech (I never questioned your freedom to speak, I only wanted to understand your logic behind it).

All this goes to the last sentence of your posting, I have quoted. It is what it is. I am afraid that you have proved my point! :)

Regards,
KRS





Dear KRS, I am surprised by your virulent support of this author. are you related to him by any chance ? or his publisher ? I have a right to voice my opinion & yes, it is a harsh critiscm, so what ? I mean you are based in US right?. so must have heard about 1st amendment? I don't consider a romantic approach to be a serious study or interpretation in theology. you may consider it a great philosophical work - that's your assessment. & I simply don't agree. How does my assessment of calling this book full of nonsense make me a religious fanatic ?
 
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