Cow or Mridhamgam - which is important

[mahakavi]

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Insulin and the shining silver papaer covering sweets are derived from animals.

Insulin used to be obtained from pig and cows long ago. Now it is all made via genetic engineering. No more animal source for that. Likewise the enzyme used in cheese making was produced from calf stomach (after slaughtering for veal). But that is also made via genetic engineering nowadays. I don't know the method for shining silver (animal fat?). If that is the case substitute can be found. There are always excuses for using it saying the animal is not slaughtered specifically for shining silver. But it is sourced from animal. For some it may be objectionable.

 

[mahakavi]

If we are discussing whether the use of leather (killing of animals) will amount to a sin, then the subject is a vast one. Not only all the percussion instruments use skin of some animal or other, but also our sages and even Gods seem to have used skins of animals like tiger and deer for covering and seating purposes. We ourselves use leather products aplenty in our daily life.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Perhaps the sages had the dictum "do as I say and not do as I do". They made it convenient for them to use animal skin calling it pure for seating and justifying it by saying Shiva used tiger skin as clothing. How did they know that the gods used animal skin for clothing? It is their own concoction. The same thing goes for kasthUri and kOrOjanai (which are taken from the deer and cow, respectively) and by offering them for temple worship the act is justified. Did god ask for kOrOjanai?
As for using cowhide for mridangam it is known that the young cow which has given birth to one or two calves is specially chosen for its supple skin to be slaughtered specifically for making the cover of the mridangam. It is thus a sin to be instrumental in the killing of an animal for the sake of the hide to cover the mridangam which produces the sweet sound. Sweet but not sin-free!

 

[Iyyarooraan]

I understand "instant sin". But what is "distant sin"? Do you mean the sins committed by our forefathers? There is a saying "mAtA pitA pAvam makkaL taliyilE". Is that what you are referring to?

I have been working on a hypothesis as to how the sins committed by someone would affect his posterity. The sins normally go with the souls. How do they know to tag on to the bodies of the posterity of the sinner? Karma might attach itself to the soul (according to Hindu and Bhuddist beliefs) and then on to the bodies occupied by that soul. But affecting posterity is a stretch even on the karma theory.

There is a burgeoning field called Epigenetics which explains certain diseases caused by silencing certain genes. But that should happen to the same person in his current birth. For example, if you commit a sin it might make changes around some of your genes and cause some disease down the road. Then if you reproduce the modification might affect your offspring too. But if your grandfather or father committed a sin after ​you were born then this does not apply to you.

The people who killed the cow for her skin and the fellow who made the mridangam are instant sinners. The percussionist and the people who enjoy the vibrating sounds emanating from mridangam are distant sinners.

Everybody enjoys or suffers the fruits of their actions. I doubt the sin committed by parents visit their issues. Of course when the issues suffer parents undergo agony and when the parents suffer the issues undergo agony, too. But the sufferings are apportioned judiciously to each according to the merits of their past actions. In a family where suffering is experienced, one or two are around the spot and another set only hear about that perhaps later and some have no chance of knowing by some chance. See the experience varies. In a family there are people who just do not care about somebody else's suffering. Now as for committing new sins we will merit punishment according to our contributions. I think this is only natural law. In MHO the part of science has also a limited and apportioned purpose. In a nutshell, let me say individuals should be careful in their actions irrespective of involvement by others - close or distant.

 

[biswa]

Insulin is no more from animals.Now its DNA Recombinant Insulin.

This is true, but DNA cannot be grown inorganically. In particular the Recombinant DNA stuff requires a vector, in this case E.Coli bacteria. Recombinant DNA technology in the synthesis of human insulin

Of course we can go blue in the face debating whether the slaughter of E.Coli bacteria for the production of "human" insulin is acceptable or not.

 

[renuka]

This is true, but DNA cannot be grown inorganically. In particular the Recombinant DNA stuff requires a vector, in this case E.Coli bacteria. Recombinant DNA technology in the synthesis of human insulin

Of course we can go blue in the face debating whether the slaughter of E.Coli bacteria for the production of "human" insulin is acceptable or not.

Dear Biswa,

E Coli is sometimes found in our intestines too.They also die in us.So that's life cycle of dependency and co dependency in existence.
But as far as possible we can avoid killing anything.

Like I just found a cockroach at the back door and I just pushed it out of the door.
I didn't want to kill it.
See we have the option to kill or not to kill.
When faced by a bigger threat just say we are swimming in the sea and a shark attacks us..we have every right to defend ourselves and the shark also won't mind the fight put up by a worthy opponent!!LOL

 

[mahakavi]

This is true, but DNA cannot be grown inorganically. In particular the Recombinant DNA stuff requires a vector, in this case E.Coli bacteria. Recombinant DNA technology in the synthesis of human insulin

Of course we can go blue in the face debating whether the slaughter of E.Coli bacteria for the production of "human" insulin is acceptable or not.

Yes, DNA can be synthesized in the lab from organic chemicals. The PCR reaction is the standard to synthesize strands of DNA. A complete gene can be synthesized and has been done. The bacteria are used only to produce the gene product viz. the protein such as insulin, growth hormone, chymosin (cheese making enzyme) etc. We have even taken synthetic genes and put them in plants like corn to make monoclonal antibodies.
Regarding the destruction of the bacteria after they synthesized the product and the product isolated, yes that amounts to killing the bacterial and sewering the contents. Bacteria are not animals. They are considered plants. We draw a line between plants and animals when it comes to vegetarianism. If you say killing plants is also verboten then you can't eat any vegetables either. Eating spinach and other leafy vegetables is tantamount to murder too since they are living plants. If you exempt the products such as okra, eggplants, tomato etc., they are also living things in that the seeds in them can generate plants. So there is no end to where should one stop.

 

[renuka]

Everybody enjoys or suffers the fruits of their actions. I doubt the sin committed by parents visit their issues.

From what I have read before that each negative action commit by anyone has consequences for family in the sense that individuals with matching karmic patterns are born into the family and they undergo the so called "suffering"

It's not that an innocent child inherits the consequences of his father's wrong doing but the child itself has the karmic pattern to be born in such a family and take on the negative karmic effects.

 

[biswa]

What! Is it not a moral dilemma to have organisms swimming around in our intestines?

Maybe that's why the Jains used to cover their faces with a gauze mask.

But just you wait, until the cockroach brings back its whole family.

 

[sudeshwer]

as far as I am given to understand that a number of sheets of silver foil(it is called 'wark' in hindi) are folded and placed in stomach-bag of dead cow, buffalo etc and that bag was beaten number of times so that 'wark' becomes soft. such a fine silver paper covers sweets. well, after hearing this,many people may stop eating sweets. but this is the fact.

 

[renuka]

as far as I am given to understand that a number of sheets of silver foil(it is called 'wark' in hindi) are folded and placed in stomach-bag of dead cow, buffalo etc and that bag was beaten number of times so that 'wark' becomes soft. such a fine silver paper covers sweets. well, after hearing this,many people may stop eating sweets. but this is the fact.

I don't like eating sweets anyhow so thank god I have never eaten any silver foil so far in my life.

 

[mahakavi]

You don't have to eat silver foils even if you eat sweets. Except for Punjabi and Gujerati sweets, other sweets are not wrapped in silver foil. Our own mysorepAk (it is now renamed vElUrpAk), jAngiri, laddu, tiraTTuppal and a host of other sweets are made without using silver foil.

Let us take this issue one more step. Sugar is refined using animal charcoal. You know how animal charcoal is made. It is made by a process called pyrolysis of the bones whereby the organic content is converted into carbon in the absence of air at high temperature. Next time when you buy sugar ask where it was manufactured and talk to the factory to find out what kind of charcoal they use. The alternative is to use vellam which does not go through the refining process.

 

[renuka]

You don't have to eat silver foils even if you eat sweets. Except for Punjabi and Gujerati sweets, other sweets are not wrapped in silver foil. Our own mysorepAk (it is now renamed vElUrpAk), jAngiri, laddu, tiraTTuppal and a host of other sweets are made without using silver foil.

Let us take this issue one more step. Sugar is refined using animal charcoal. You know how animal charcoal is made. It is made by a process called pyrolysis of the bones whereby the organic content is converted into carbon in the absence of air at high temperature. Next time when you buy sugar ask where it was manufactured and talk to the factory to find out what kind of charcoal they use. The alternative is to use vellam which does not go through the refining process.

Ha Ha Ha..I escape yet again.You can't find sugar in my house cos I don't use it.
If I want to make a sweetener I used boiled dates and strain the mixture.It tastes so much better and a lower glycemic index too.

 

[Naina_Marbus]

Silver foils arenot non vegetarian but they are MADE, using the intestine of animals. Pleaseread this:
"The silver foils are not very expensive. They are sold by weight.Ordinarily, you can buy a packet of 160 foils for a price between Rs.100 to200. That is, approximately one rupee per foil. Not only the sweets, now a daysit is also applied on fruits.
Some Ayurvedic medicines also are wrapped in silver foils. They aremade by hammering thin sheets of silver in middle of booklets made of a bull'sintestines. In other words, after slaughtering a bull, quickly his intestinesare removed, and sold to the manufacturers of foils. The skins made of oldintestines are of no use. Even one-day-old intestines can not be used, becausewithin a few hours they stiffen.
The foil manufacturer removes blood and stools from the intestines, andcuts them into pieces. Then he puts one piece over another, making a bookletout of it. At his home, or in the factory, he puts one silver (or gold) sheetin-between each page. Then he hammers it hard until those metal sheets turninto thin wafers. The intestines of bulls are so strong, that even repeatedhammering do not destroy them, or they do not let the foils move around inside.Because of the hammering, some tissues of theintestine mix with the foils. After that thefoil manufacturer sells the bundle of foils to the sweets manufacturers. Somesmall foil manufacturers sell the foils to the temples. This foil is not onlydirty, it also is non-vegetarian. Even the meat-eaters do not eat intestines.Use of these foils turn even sweets into non-vegetarian food. A few years agothe Indian Airlines learned about this, and since then stopped using them onthe sweets served in their planes.
Now-a-days, machine made silver foils are available. Here is the link:
About Varakh - :: Welcome to SilverFoils ::

A good example of "ignorance is bliss". Who ever knew these things? Thanks for the eye-opener.

A slight change in the first sentence in your post :“Silver foils are not non vegetarian but they are MADE, using the intestine of animals” to perhaps the following:

“Silver foils are not non vegetarian only if they are NOT MADE using the intestine of animals”

 

[mahakavi]

If I want to make a sweetener I used boiled dates and strain the mixture.It tastes so much better and a lower glycemic index too.

I think on an equal sweetness basis date sugar and regular sugar have the same GI value.
Source: Date Sugar from Barry Farm

Quote: Though fresh dates score low on the glycemic index, dried fruits always score higher, and dehydration makes the score higher still since the sugar becomes more and more concentrated. So it's not recommended for diabetics or those on a low-glycemic diet, but it's great for anyone else who wants a very unrefined close-to-nature sweetener.
Date sugar - substitute one cup date sugar for each cup granulated sugar.
Unquote

 

[Raji Ram]

Silver foils are not non vegetarian but they are MADE, using the intestine of animals

Yes....... The sentence needs correction. Thank you Naina Sir!

It is true that non-veg particles stick to the foil and make it a non vegetarian stuff. Agreed!!

I have given the link for machine made silver foils, in the same post.

 

[biswa]

Ok not justifying vegetarianism, non-vegetarianism or anything like that.

But what are the possibilities that the cells from a cow are present in cow's milk? Always wondered about that.

 

[mahakavi]

But what are the possibilities that the cells from a cow are present in cow's milk? Always wondered about that.

Normally the udder of the cow is a stable organ unless it undergoes mastitis (surface wounds on the udder). Usually the cow is not milked until it recovers. Under normal circumstances even our skin has some dead cells which are sloughed off when you wash. Something like that could happen when you milk the cow. But those are dead cells anyway. If you think that constitutes animal meat (fleshy) then it is. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[sudeshwer]

today it is difficult to even imagine. my grandfather, why even my father used to have woodden-slipper(kattai) only.

 

[renuka]

Ok not justifying vegetarianism, non-vegetarianism or anything like that.

But what are the possibilities that the cells from a cow are present in cow's milk? Always wondered about that.

Off course some amount of cow DNA must be there!!LOL
But Biswa dear...you see the cow does not die when we drink it's milk just like all babies who are breast fed do not take their mother's life.

 

[renuka]

today it is difficult to even imagine. my grandfather, why even my father used to have woodden-slipper(kattai) only.

So some trees also died to make those slippers! See its almost impossible to be 100% Ahimsa as in not taking any life form.
So wherever we can we can opt for a lifestyle that consumes the least lives as possible.

 

[prasad1]

So some trees also died to make those slippers! See its almost impossible to be 100% Ahimsa as in not taking any life form.
So wherever we can we can opt for a lifestyle that consumes the least lives as possible.

I agree with you, I have written in other threads that do as little damage you can do. You will never escape doing harm to any life form. Please do not make a show of your faith, live with what you can and do as little harm to others feeling. Sometimes in our zeel to live our life we make others life miserable.

A friend of mine turned vegan, and stopped using milk, which is noble. But we did not turn vegan, he will keep reminding of how bad the system of milk production, and that we should give it up too. I thought that was rude. LOL

 

[sudeshwer]

No.45 I agree, Dr Renuka. we should consume the least lives as far as possible.

 

[Raji Ram]

O........you see the cow does not die when we drink it's milk just like all babies who are breast fed do not take their mother's life.

The only female who died after feeding a baby was Boothana! :evil:

Anyway, she was a demon and not Lord Krishna's mother!!

 

[Raji Ram]

No.45 I agree, Dr Renuka. we should consume the least lives as far as possible.

My dear M I L used to say that a person will consume non-veg stuff which is about the size of a goat's head, even if he/she is

very very careful!! Even now I wonder, 'Is it possible?'

 

[sudeshwer]

continuing my Quote No.47, even if we plug flowers from the trees, leaves from plantain tree etc etc may amount to 'killing'. we have to draw a line somewhere