Cow or Mridhamgam - which is important

[mahakavi]

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Thanks Mr. Biswa (likewise I assume it is a Mr.). I belong and have belonged to several forums. In all cases I have spoken my mind without fear. Timidity is a word not found in my dictionary. I will not take insults lightly. I do not question others' faith either. But I have the right to question certain ideas without insulting the individuals. The same is what I expect from others.

 

[biswa]

In that case, you are a true TB.

But in an anonymous internet forum, every other post is a (perceived) insult, no?

 

[mahakavi]

.....But in an anonymous internet forum, every other post is a (perceived) insult, no?

Not really. I do not consider differing opinions as insults. Only pointedly prickly and cryptic remarks implying something sarcastic are insults. I admit they are few and far between. I consider myself a good sport for such unless I notice some vehemence in the remarks.

 

[Raji Ram]

I hope cows are NOT slaughtered for making mridhangams but the skin of those slaughtered, to cater the needs of

non-veg eaters are used, to make the wonderful percussion instrument. May be, the cows LIVE in the rhythm?

Here is a special youtube upload of 'jugalbandhi' of two great maestros Palghat Sri. Mani Iyer and Sri. Zakir Hussain:

Mridangam/Tabla Jugalbandhi - YouTube

 

[mahakavi]

I hope cows are NOT slaughtered for making mridhangams but the skin of those slaughtered, to cater the needs of

non-veg eaters are used, to make the wonderful percussion instrument.

It is one thing to hope but another is reality. Published accounts (verified with individuals who make the mridangam) indicate that some cows are specifically chosen to be slaughtered for their supple skin. Of course, the beef obtained as a by-products goes to feed the willing consumers. The irony in all this is that these animals are all close relatives of ours (genetically speaking) in the mammalian kingdom and when they are slaughtered blood runs like a river. We have been discussing the "killing" of plant products. Obviously no blood is spilled in that process. But the argument there is what you don't see does not mean the killing does not occur.

It is a small comfort to presume that the cows "live" in the rhythm of the mridangam.

 

[mahakavi]

Raji Ram:
At the start of the jugalbandhi audio (PMI/ZH) for which you gave the link, it says the rAgam is "pallavi". Is there a rAgam which is called "pallavi"? I haven't heard of one such rAgam (in my limited knowledge)

 

[Raji Ram]

......... At the start of the jugalbandhi audio (PMI/ZH) for which you gave the link, it says the rAgam is "pallavi". Is there a rAgam which is called "pallavi"? ........

Dear Sir,

Someone with a very limited / no knowledge of Carnatic music should have uploaded this in youtube, I guess.

The very short violin music at the beginning and end of the jugalbandhi indicates that, Sri. L. Shankar might have

played a rAgam - thAnam - pallavi in MOhana rAgam. :thumb:

 

[Raji Ram]

It is one thing to hope but another is reality. Published accounts (verified with individuals who make the mridangam) indicate that some cows are specifically chosen to be slaughtered for their supple skin. Of course, the beef obtained as a by-products goes to feed the willing consumers. .........

Oh! This note makes me really sad! Humans are cruel.

They might have thought 'konnAp pAvam, thinnAp pOchchu' and eaten the flesh!

Being beautiful is not only dangerous to women but also to cows!! :tsk:

 

[Iyyarooraan]

The idea of my post # 87 was to say that if every thing is sin, then what we are left with is only extinction. There was no sarcasm in that and those who point out the sins are naturally the leaders.
கொன்றால் பாவம் தின்றால் போச்சு.
I think the line has a different meaning than what is understood by us. For instance, the cow is killed for its skin, it will take rebirth as cow and eat the man who killed it in the last janma as a punishment. Cow has a life span of 20 yrs and the man has 3x more. Never heard? This might happen in "Kali".

 

[renuka]

Very cryptic remark! I did not leave the forum nor have any intention of leaving!

Dear Mahakavi ji,

What I meant is.... what you wrote sounded very much like a former member in forum who loved to label every Hindu religious belief as Fantasy and Fiction.

I got reminded of that person so much that a line from the Cheran Movie Autograph started playing in my head..you know that Nyabagam Varuthe Nyabagam Varuthe line?

I didn't mean to say that you left forum or intent to leave forum.
I didn't mean to be cryptic at all.

regards

 

[Raji Ram]

........ கொன்றால் பாவம் தின்றால் போச்சு.
I think the line has a different meaning than what is understood by us. For instance, the cow is killed for its skin, it will take rebirth as cow and eat the man who killed it in the last janma as a punishment. Cow has a life span of 20 yrs and the man has 3x more. Never heard? This might happen in "Kali".

நான் எழுதிய 'கடிக் கவிதை' நினைவு வருகிறது!

முற்பிறவி!

துடுக்குச் சிறுவன்

ஒரு புழுவை

கல்லால் குத்தித்

துன்புறுத்தக் கண்ட

ஒரு பெரியவர்,

'தம்பி!

புழுவை நீ

இந்தப் பிறவியில்

துன்புறுத்தினால்,

அடுத்த பிறவியில்

அது சிறுவனாகி,

நீ புழு ஆகி,

மீண்டும் நடக்கும்

இதே போல',

எனச் சொல்ல,

சிரித்தபடியே

அவன் பதிலளித்தான்,

'புரியாமல் பேசாதீர்!

என் முற்பிறவியின்

பழி வாங்கலே இது!' :heh:

 

[mahakavi]

The idea of my post # 87 was to say that if every thing is sin, then what we are left with is only extinction. There was no sarcasm in that and those who point out the sins are naturally the leaders.
கொன்றால் பாவம் தின்றால் போச்சு.
I think the line has a different meaning than what is understood by us. For instance, the cow is killed for its skin, it will take rebirth as cow and eat the man who killed it in the last janma as a punishment. Cow has a life span of 20 yrs and the man has 3x more. Never heard? This might happen in "Kali".

Thanks. It was not obvious at the first reading. I am not a pessimist but have a feeling that we are in this funk for a long time to come because wholesale extinction is not that easy. Even volcanic eruptions cause immediate danger but new life emerges soon from the ashes. Extinction might come eventually but on an asymptotic (gradual and prolonged) basis.

As I understand, the cow is a vegetarian, except in Chennai city a few may eat stray matter. Cow eating a man will certainly be news! Remember that making the mridangam using cowhide spans more than a couple of centuries---say 10 generations of cows by your reckoning. Are they waiting to eat the man who killed them? Also what about secondary sin--the person who did not kill but used the hide? He is a co-conspirator in the sin, right?. The tertiary sin---the vidwan who used the mridangam-- and the quaternary sin (the rasikas who enjoyed the sogasugA mridanga tALamu)---are they exempt? Where do we stop?

 

[mahakavi]

'புரியாமல் பேசாதீர்!

என் முற்பிறவியின்

பழி வாங்கலே இது!'

Sin is cyclic and is ordained by Nature/Evolution/God? Who started it? So why bother?:tsk:

 

[mahakavi]

Dear Mahakavi ji,

What I meant is.... what you wrote sounded very much like a former member in forum who loved to label every Hindu religious belief as Fantasy and Fiction.
......

I didn't mean to say that you left forum or intent to leave forum.
I didn't mean to be cryptic at all.

regards

Thanks for the clarification. Short missiles (!) sometimes have unintended implications.
As one who applies reason as appropriate as it requires, I do not label all Hindu beliefs as fiction or fantasy. Surely there is a lot of exaggeration in many of the purANAs taking you to the edge. As I said elsewhere, only the Hindu religion has seamlessly woven religion and mythology so that it is difficult to separate them. Look at Greek and Roman mythology---they had so much fantasy that they are relegated to interested reading---nothing more.

To prove my credentials as discriminating analyst, I am giving you a link here where I saw interesting facts giving a legitimate geographical basis to RAmAyaNam. The details were scoured from various sources (they were not my own).

http://www.svtemplenc.org/stories/StoryOfRamasJourneyfromAyodhyatoLanka.pdf

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Thank you Mahakavi Sir - The pralayam or whatever one would call it, will come when it will. In the matters of eating preferences, I think the Brahmins have the most difficult choices. Whether they are sincere or not is a different matter. In that case if they have to shun all foods that come with sin, it is extinction for them. The rest who follow the survival instinct may live on to see the Great End. But for us now they will not be Brahmins then. If you survive for the sake of others will be viewed differently. That leaves us to eat the food you just need to live, enjoy life just to recreate yourself for tomorrow's performance of your duty and sacrifice all other 'availabilities' without which you can live. I think this could sum up a life of today's Brahmin. That is how we can satisfy ourselves with or without regard to Vedas and Heavens. Vide para 2, thanks for echoeing my own view.

 

[mahakavi]

Nope..HIV virus is transmitted through a broken surface in the mucosa.
So unless you have a broken surface of mucosa in your mouth and then attempt to kiss a person with HIV who also has a exposed surface in his/her mouth..then the risk is higher.
Otherwise the concentration of the virus is very low in saliva,tears,sweat and urine if it is not contaminated with blood.

Some new information. No need to have a broken surface of mucosa. The HIV virus is in the saliva itself (without coming from the blood) if the person is infected. Now FDA has approved an HIV test using saliva. The company called Orasure Technologies has a kit called Oraqucik in home HIV test which you can use at home. You take a mouth swab to collect saliva, and put it inside a test tube with reagents. In 20-40 minutes you get the result. They do not specify you have to have muscosal rupture for the test to give proper result. If it is detectable then it is capable of transmission to another person.

 

[ShivKC]

Cow or Mridhamgam - which is important?

Answer is simple..

Have the cake, and eat it too!!!

 

[sarang]

In a recent article from south africa, it was claimed that hiv virus is present in a dormant state in all human beings (like other viruses). Only the lifestyle, bad habits and environment reduce our immunity for hiv to flare. The pharmaceutical business has exploited the ignorance to mint money.

Chances of getting aids is very low if one leads a clean lifestyle; i will post the link if i can locate it.

Some new information. No need to have a broken surface of mucosa. The HIV virus is in the saliva itself (without coming from the blood) if the person is infected. Now FDA has approved an HIV test using saliva. The company called Orasure Technologies has a kit called Oraqucik in home HIV test which you can use at home. You take a mouth swab to collect saliva, and put it inside a test tube with reagents. In 20-40 minutes you get the result. They do not specify you have to have muscosal rupture for the test to give proper result. If it is detectable then it is capable of transmission to another person.

 

[sarang]

vali to rama after he was struck by rama's arrow: Kshatrias and brahmanas do not use a vanara's skin nor eat its meat. Why have you attacked me?"

I am really surprised how use of cow's hide is accepted by hindus in general and brahmins in particular!

Cow or Mridhamgam - which is important?

Answer is simple..

Have the cake, and eat it too!!!

 

[mahakavi]

In a recent article from south africa, it was claimed that hiv virus is present in a dormant state in all human beings (like other viruses). Only the lifestyle, bad habits and environment reduce our immunity for hiv to flare. The pharmaceutical business has exploited the ignorance to mint money.

Chances of getting aids is very low if one leads a clean lifestyle; i will post the link if i can locate it.

I concur. Lots of viruses piggyback themselves into other creatures. The energy factory within each of our cells, called mitochondria, was a bacterium once which got a visa (so to speak) into the human body. This biosphere is a place of peaceful coexistence except in certain occasions things go awry. Yes, the HIV virus is an opportunistic infection aggravated by the compromised lifestyle of human beings.

I would not characterize the pharma companies as exploiting. They find the drugs to treat HIV. They spend money to discover the drugs and they are entitled to a fair return on their efforts. It is not just ignorance that makes people vulnerable but wanton indulgence despite knowing the risks in many cases. Early on it may have been ignorance but not anymore.

 

[mahakavi]

vali to rama after he was struck by rama's arrow: Kshatrias and brahmanas do not use a vanara's skin nor eat its meat. Why have you attacked me?"

I am really surprised how use of cow's hide is accepted by hindus in general and brahmins in particular!

Yes, it was a question by vAli embarrassing to Rama. Rama used convoluted logic such as VAli was an animal so he could hide and hunt him. But when vAli asked why Rama thought he should kill VAli Rama replied he did injustice to his brother Sugreeva by stealing his wife. But when vAli said that transgression as it applies to humans does not apply to monkeys, Rama had no answer. In the end they justify it as everything was pre-determined (that it was ordained that Rama should seek the assistance of Sugreeva), a very fuzzy situation.

Well, at one time brahmins ate meat, if you know. During Buddha's period the priests encouraged animal sacrifice and were eating meat and drinking alcohol too. When the priest was about to chant the mantra before sacrificing the animal, Siddharta Gautama walked in and carried the animal away. In ancient times the so-called "untouchables" ate beef and used cowhide to make various drums to be used in temple celebrations. The priests turned a blind eye to such practice at that time throwing some lame justification (such as-- in the service of the Lord everything is fair)

 

[sarang]

But vali's wife tara says that he usurped rumi (sugriva's wife) and drove away sugriva and tried to kill him. So for these adharmic deeds he had to pay.

The issue is not brrahmins eating meat; they ate meat as yagna sesha and not for boga. Sacrificing animals in roughly two out of twenty yagnas is referred to by ramanujacharya and kanchi periyavar (in deivathin kural). That is a separate issue.

Killing of cow is nowhere permitted; even for yagnas. Do you have scriptural or puranic or any other evidence to show that cows were eaten and their hides were used for drums.

Yes, it was a question by vAli embarrassing to Rama. Rama used convoluted logic such as VAli was an animal so he could hide and hunt him. But when vAli asked why Rama thought he should kill VAli Rama replied he did injustice to his brother Sugreeva by stealing his wife. But when vAli said that transgression as it applies to humans does not apply to monkeys, Rama had no answer. In the end they justify it as everything was pre-determined (that it was ordained that Rama should seek the assistance of Sugreeva), a very fuzzy situation.

Well, at one time brahmins ate meat, if you know. During Buddha's period the priests encouraged animal sacrifice and were eating meat and drinking alcohol too. When the priest was about to chant the mantra before sacrificing the animal, Siddharta Gautama walked in and carried the animal away. In ancient times the so-called "untouchables" ate beef and used cowhide to make various drums to be used in temple celebrations. The priests turned a blind eye to such practice at that time throwing some lame justification (such as-- in the service of the Lord everything is fair)

 

[carvaka]

Until Buddha, rig vedic ideas reigned supreme...I think I read it from Amartya Sen's book

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Yes, it was a question by vAli embarrassing to Rama. Rama used convoluted logic such as VAli was an animal so he could hide and hunt him. But when vAli asked why Rama thought he should kill VAli Rama replied he did injustice to his brother Sugreeva by stealing his wife. But when vAli said that transgression as it applies to humans does not apply to monkeys, Rama had no answer. In the end they justify it as everything was pre-determined (that it was ordained that Rama should seek the assistance of Sugreeva), a very fuzzy situation.

I have heard about these "supposed" arguments between VAli and RAmA, except with a reversed chronology.

First VAli asks RAmA why he intended to kill VAli. RAmA explains about the injustice VAli did to his brother by stealing Sugreeva's wife. When VAli counters that such transgression is acceptable among VAnaRas and human laws do not apply to them, RAmA replies that hunting a VAnaRa hiding is also NOT unfair as human laws of fighting an open warfare does not apply to a VAnaRA!

 

[prasad1]

But vali's wife tara says that he usurped rumi (sugriva's wife) and drove away sugriva and tried to kill him. So for these adharmic deeds he had to pay.

The issue is not brrahmins eating meat; they ate meat as yagna sesha and not for boga. Sacrificing animals in roughly two out of twenty yagnas is referred to by ramanujacharya and kanchi periyavar (in deivathin kural). That is a separate issue.

Killing of cow is nowhere permitted; even for yagnas. Do you have scriptural or puranic or any other evidence to show that cows were eaten and their hides were used for drums.

I am not as well versed as you in scriptures. I read this book. I am very sorry you asked a question like this, I am even more sorry that I started to research this topic. For a vegetarian this thread has been very painful.

A. Historian DN Jha has written a book entitled "Holy Cow: Beef in the Indian Dietary Traditions" Jha has argued that the Rg Veda refers to the cooking of ox's flesh as offering
to the gods,especially Indra.Agni's food was the ox and the barren cow.This practice, acc. to him,continues up to 8th century AD in some form or other.But at the same time,there was tendency among Brahmins to discourage the practice of killing cows in Kalyug. Jha has also spoken
of the Manusmriti,which while providing a list of animals that could be eaten,forbade the eating of the cow
Acc. to Yajnvalkya Smriti ,a learned Brahmin should be welcomed with a big ox or goat,delicious food and sweet words.
Charaka Samhita, Sushruta Samhita and Astangahritaya of Vagbhata acc. to Jha,referred to the use of beef in case of specific illnesses.The book refers to Charaka prescribing a gruel prepared
with beef gravy, soured with pomegranates, as a remedy for intermittent fever.

http://sanghsamachar.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/the-myth-of-the-holy-cow-part-1/

"Several points emerge from our limited survey of the textual evidence, mostly drawn from Brahmanical sources drawn from the Rgveda onwards. In the first place, it is clear that the early Aryans, who migrated to India from outside, brought along with them certain cultural elements. After their migration into the Indian subcontinent pastoralism, nomadism and animal sacrifice remained characteristic features of their lives for several centuries until sedentary field agriculture became the mainstay of their livelihood. Animal sacrifices were very common, the most important of them being the famous asvamedha and rajasuya. These and several other major sacrifices involved the killing of animals including cattle, which constituted the chief form of the wealth of the early Aryans. Not surprisingly, they prayed for cattle and sacrificed them to propitiate their gods. The Vedic gods had no marked dietary preferences. Milk, butter, barley, oxen, goats and sheep were their usual food, though some of them seem to have had their special preferences. Indra had a special liking for bulls. Agni was not a tippler like Indra, but was fond of the flesh of horses, bulls and cows. The toothless Pusan, the guardian of the roads, ate mush as a Hobson’s choice. Soma was the name of an intoxicant but, equally important, of a god, and killing animals (including cattle) for him was basic to most of the Rgvedic yajnas. The Maruts and the asvins were also offered cows. The Vedas mention about 250 animals out of which at least 50 were deemed fit for sacrifice, by implication for divine as well as human consumption. The Taittiriya Brahmana categorically tells us: Verily the cow is food (atho annam vai gauh) and Yajnavalkya‘s insistence on eating the tender (amsala) flesh of the cow is well known. Although there is reason to believe that a brahmana’s cow may not have been killed, that is no index of its inherent sanctity in the Vedic period or even later."