Dhikshitars of Chidambaram are also Tamil Brahmins too

[anandr91]

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this might be a little silly, but what are the differences between agamic and non-agamic ways of worship/rituals/prayers? what is agamic and what is non-agamic? sorry for my ignorance on this matter. i thot all temples did the say kind of worships and rituals.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The controversy has been brewing since 2006.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/07/11/stories/2006071109120300.htm

Arumugha Samy wanted to recite Thevaram standing on the elevated structure before the Garbha Griha (Sanctum Sanctorum ) and not inside the Garbha Griha as reported wrongly by the press now.

Now the temple in Chidambaram is similar to the pattern of Kerala temples. Here we have an elevated platform before the Garbha Griha. Some of the Tamil Nadu temples have an ante room attached to the Garbha Griha. In some temples it is considered part of the Garbha Griha and in some it is not.

In the old days In Kerala only Brahmins were allowed to enter the elevated platform. Only Brahmins were allowed in the ante room also. This restriction has been removed in all the temples.

Actually what has been forgotten is that Arumugha Samy wanted to be recognized as a Othuvar and not a priest. The Othuvars recite Thevaram in Tamil Nadu temples standing just outside the Garbha Griha. Now this post of Othuvars was restricted to a particular forward community which controls most of the temples in Tamil Nadu. Arumugha Samy's fight seems to be first against that community and not against the Deekshidhars.

The question is did the Deekshidhar allow the other Odhuvars to recite Thevaram from the elevated platform?

Even if they had not allowed it earlier they could have easily made a change keeping with the times. Some people try to represent that only the priests are allowed on the raised platform. Is it correct. Is it not true that all people are allowed on the platform?I remember doing it. I think they charged some amount for it. There were other people who were non Brahmins who were there.

Arumugha Samy had approached the courts because he did not get the support of any of the political parties. The supporters have come from a fringe group.

I would like my friend who has been posting about this issue to clarify a few points?

Are/Were Non Brahmins/Brahmins who were not priests allowed on the platform ?

Are/Were the Othuvars allowed on the platform earlier?

Is it not true that the othuvars have all belonged to a forward community and no backward caste person was allowed to become a Othuvar?

Did not the Deekshidhars attack the Jaya TV Personnel inside the temple some years back?

 

[Saab]

பஞ்சாக்கரத் திருப்பதிகம்

திருச்சிற்றம்பலம்

மந்திர நான்மறையாகி வானவர்
சிந்தையுள் நின்று அவர் தம்மை ஆள்வன
செந்தழல் ஓம்பிய செம்மை வேதியர்க்கு
அந்தியுள் மந்திரம் அஞ்செழுத்துமே. 3.22.2
திருச்சிற்றம்பலம்

 

[malgova.mango]

"THILLAI VAZH ANTHANAR THAM ADIYARKKUM ADIYEN"
"THIRUNEELA KANDA KUYAVANARKKUM ADIYEN.."

Now peace reigns, let's sing mangalam ...

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Nacchi..

a devotee puts his foot on lord, he bathed him with the water from his mouth, he gives pork as a feast.... God REJOICED and gives him mukthi.

Intention defines the action...Unfortunately here the intention is politics and not devotion. He himself said that he comes with the order of cm, that's why the commotion.. Now the issue resolved ...we all can settle ourselves in peace....

etho ennakku therinja 2 varthai....
malgova.mango

 

[Saab]

அன்னம் பாலிக்குந் தில்லைச்சிற் றம்பலம்
பொன்னம் பாலிக்கு மேலுமிப் பூமிசை
என்னம் பாலிக்கு மாறுகண் டின்புற
இன்னம் பாலிக்கு மோவிப் பிறவியே.

 

[Saab]

a circulated mail from a yahoo group --------------------------------------------------
please recollect the incidents leading to the arrest of many
Dikshidars last fortnight.

yesterday at11th dated dinakaran newspapewr on page 6
there is a colour photo exibiting the great hero of that day ARUMUGASWAMY
wandering on the roads in Chidambaram for want of food'

it is very clear and to be noted that so called 'atheists' used
ths man as a tool to go inside the Natraja temple and create fuss
and bring a law and order situation,leading the Govt to the temple and so on

A real Dewaram,Thiruvasaka oduwar wants sing means will always be
allowed but not like this. hence all our devotees are requested to watch the issues properly
and intiate an action so that a repeatation is prevented.

--A posting in Kanchiforum

 

[Saab]

Most of the readers would be aware that two groups of Christians clashed in Ulundurpet that resulted in the police firing on the rioting mob causing two deaths. The story reported in Newindpress.com is as follows:

"Rival groups of Christians clash - Two killed in police firing in Villupuram
Monday March 10 2008 01:55 IST

P ARUL

VILLUPURAM: Two persons were killed and another injured in police firing at an unruly mob following a clash between two groups of a church in Ulundurpet on Sunday.

As the Dalit Christians of St Jabamalai Annai Church in Eraiyur were reportedly neglected, they built a ‘Saghaya Madha church’ in the area three months ago, and sought appointment of a priest for it.

The Viduthalai Chiruthaigal Katchi (VCK) and the Ambedkar Makkal Iyakkam also took up the issue. A few days ago, 15 persons went on an indefinite fast, demanding the Arch Bishop, Puducherry-Cuddalore appoint a priest. Revenue officials and police tried to pacify them and a contingent of policemen was posted to the village.

Meanwhile, posters were put up by the VCK in the village, demanding closure of St Jabamalai Church and recognition to Saghaya Madha Church. This provoked the rival group, dominated by BC Christians, and around 500 of them went on the rampage on Sunday, assaulting Dalits and torching their huts. Over 30 huts were gutted.

Superintendent of Police Amalraj along with a police team resorted to lathi charge. The mob retaliated and indulged in stone-pelting, injuring several policemen. As the violence continued, the police opened fire, in which M Periya Nayagam (40) and A Magimai (24) were killed on the spot.

Another person, Devasagayam, was admitted to Government Hospital. Over 40 persons were injured in the lathi-charge. District Collector Prajendra Navneeth and senior police officials rushed to the spot. A large contingent of policemen have been posted to the village."

I reproduce below an extract from the very appropriate comments of Sri Vedaprakash in Hindu Civilization.

"The failure at Erayur is serious: As the mass-media flashes news immediately, definitely the Church has been in jitters, nervous and really worried in responding to the violent behaviour of their believers. "Oh God, Oh God, why you have forsaken me?"[1], thus crying the affected believers. Jesus' assurance[2] that, "You all one in Christ, whether one is black or white, gentile or Jew" has failed utterly, as these believers have decided to fight with each other[3]. Karunanidhi and his Black Parivar aid and abet: Thus, when the Black Parivar, atheist Karunanidhi and others have been creating a lot of tamasha, sensation and excitement exploiting the old-man Arumugaswamy, singing Tevram in Tamil and the advocates getting benefits, the Catholic believers want separate Churches to worship, pray and conduct mass. Can Karunanidji help them? Now, Christians fight with each other to worship the same God, conduct prayers invoking the same God and inviting the Priests-Christian Dikshitas[4] to do so. But the Catholic-Disksithas refuse to come. The Catholic Bishops refuse to recognize their Church built. How that they have TWO to approach ONE[5]? Why Karu does not issue GO in this effect? Why the secular Ruler keep quite or indulging in dereliction in his duty? The Black Parivar too has been keeping quite instead of leading the Scheduled Caste Catholics to their own Church, demanding the Catholic priests to conduct the prayers or select one Arumugaswamy-type Anthonysamy or some other Catholicsamy[6] to lead the march! Had they done so, this clash could have been avoided. The two souls could have been saved. On March 9, 2008 (Sunday): The faithful Christians clashed with each other in the name of Jesus Christ or Mary, as reported by the TV-channels. Of course, they pointed out that they were Vanniars and Dalits (Scheduled Caste). Ironically, the media continues to use the term "Dalit", though it has already been announced that it is legally incorrect to use such term."

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

What is the relevance of this tirade against Christians to the Deekshidhars?

Earlier Muslims were being attacked.

I do not think this forum is meant for attack on other religions and political parties. This forum is being used to spread hatred.

The very fact that Arumugasamy was wandering on the road in search of food proves that he was not a tool in the hands of the politicians. The politicians made use of the situation. He is a Sivanadiar and Sivanadiars do wander around. He is not a Deekshidhar to have Mada maligai and Gooda Gopuram.

India has been blessed with a number of wandering Monks, some of them Avadhutas and many of them Brahmins.

No one has answered my questions.

 

[KRS]

Hate against any community is illogical and counterproductive, especially in a democracy, where interests of everyone can be safeguarded. Democracy is not a perfect syatem, but it is the only system in today's world that can reasonably avoid communalism. Haranguing about other religions in the guise of telling the 'truth' will arouse needless passions, that will culminate in violent expressions. May be this is what intentionally hoped for.

If one looks at the 'hot spots' in the world, the problems persist largely because of the unwillingness of different groups to forgive and forget the inequities, both perceived and real that were done to them in the past. People bring today's enlightenment to past happenings, just to feel better and to accentuate their victimhood. Lessons need to be learnt from the past only so far as to not repeat the wrong acts.

There are enough of today's problems - economy, pollution, health care, education, terrorism etc., to name a few - for us to tackle. We don't need to be fighting a '1000 year war' against anyone.

It always pained me to see such diatribes against other communities in a different Forum whose main intention was to gather universal support for a great institution which is going through tribulations nowadays. Thoughtless postings about other communities are allowed there with the objective of safeguarding the interests of Hinduism(perhaps the admins, focused only on the narrow support of a particular community), with the end result that people who might support the cause have left. A particular political view is also promoted vigorously, which in my opinion, should not be expressed in an open Forum such as that one as well as here.

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji, I totally agree with your statement about the objective of this Forum; and I hope our TB community would agree as well.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Saab]

Folks,

He is not a Deekshidhar to have a Mada Maligai and Gooda Gopuram.

I don't think this statement is made out of love.

If one looks at the 'hot spots' in the world, the problems persist largely because of the unwillingness of different groups to forgive and forget the inequities, both perceived and real that were done to them in the past. People bring today's enlightenment to past happenings, just to feel better and to accentuate their victimhood. Lessons need to be learnt from the past only so far as to not repeat the wrong acts.

This is a diatribe of a person unwilling to face reality. People don't appear out of nothing. People are continuation of their past. A person who wants to sweep the past under the carpet is condemned to repeat it. I am seeing a reality. You are seeing a shame that you want to hide. You and I are poles apart.

We don't need to be fighting a '1000 year war' against anyone.

Sure you don't want to for it suits you. But there are those who see the work of nature in it and seek historical justice. If you don't join them then you are against them. What do you do with them? Kill them all?

Love and hate are human. A person who denies this is out of touch with the reality. Some people try to portray themselves as the incarnation of love and condemn others like me as the personification of intolerance. How pitiable they are!

My advice to them is: Please stop bullshitting with your judgments. You give your views, I give mine and let other give theirs. Don't be the communist dictator and forbid the members as to what they can and cannot say. People have better judgement than you assume. Just be happy about the fact that we can post our views. People are far more smarter to know what to take and what to leave. Please don't try to be a filter and a judge. It is sickening.

Thank you.
Saab

 

[KRS]

Dear Saab Ji,

All views are based on judgements. What I wrote above is my personal view, and I will state it as clearly and loudly I can for all to hear every chance I get, because I sincerely believe that the welfare of our community as well as India is involved. I have done so in the other Forum I have mentioned also. How does this prevent you from posting your views?

I have no power to filter, edit or remove your postings based on what you write, as I am not an admin. You have every freedom to voice your opinions within the bounds of decency and I have every right to voice mine. The admins have to decide on what and what not to allow to be posted.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Saab]

Dear KRSji,

I do not participate in any other forum and I couldn't care less about you or anyone else doing at any other forum.

In this forum I have said:

You give your views, I give mine and let other give theirs.

And you have said:

You have every freedom to voice your opinions

So we are on the same page!

Thank you,
Saab

திருஞானசம்பந்த சுவாமிகள் (முன்றாம் திருமுறை)

3.001. கோயில்


பண் - காந்தாரபஞ்சமம்

திருச்சிற்றம்பலம்
1 ஆடினாய்நறு நெய்யொடு பால்தயிர்
அந்தணர்பிரி யாதசிற் றம்பலம்
நாடினாயிடமா நறுங்கொன்றை நயந்தவனே
பாடினாய்மறை யோடுபல் கீதமும்
பல்சடைப்பனி கால்கதிர் வெண்திங்கள்
சூடினாயருளாய் சுருங்கஎம தொல்வினையே.

 

[Saab]

Without comments

GESTURE TO ARUMUGA SWAMY ODUVAR – TNIE 18/3/08

A leading Tamil Weekly has come out with all details
regarding the happenings in Chidambaram temple. I want
to share some of the details with your esteemed
readers and correspondents;

1. The temple is NOT controlled by HR&CE. The court
had stayed the appointment of Executive Officer. The
Court had observed that the Dishidars belong to a
separate religious denomination. As on datE, the
temple affairs are controlled by Dikshidars only.

2. Devaram is being sung by the Dikshidars as part of
everyday Pooja and rituals. In fact, this is the ONLY
temple in the whole of Tamilnadu where Thevaram,
Thiruvsaagam, Thiruvisyppa, Thirupallandu, Peria
Puranam – called Panja Puranangal, are being sung.The
media and politician -created -image that the
Dikshidars are against tamil, is a BIG LIE.
3. According to local people, the Dikshidars insist on
following the customs and agama sastras while singing
Devaram. Except, Dishidars, nobody is allowed to sing
from the Kanagasabai (pulpit). Even the so-called
Brahmins are not allowed to sing or do pooja from the
Kanagasabai.

4. According to local people, Arumugaswamy is not a
properly trained Oduvar. In fact, the other Oduvars
in Chidambaram complain that the Government is not
appointing Oduvars in the HR&CE controlled temples,
despite repeated representations. They are surprised
as to why the interest in singing Thevaram only in
this temple.

5, Any person, after removing the upper garment (shirt
or banian) can visit the temple, irrespective of
caste, creed or religion. In fact, when
Thirumavalavan, the VCK chief visited the temple, he
was accorded full temple honours..

6. Ladies are allowed to sing Thevaram inside the
temple.

7. Many people in the crowd, which went into the
temple for singing Thevaram, could not sing the same
properly even with a paper. It was an embarrassing
moment for the agitators.

8. The media and the politicians are painting a
picture that Dikshidars are anti-tamil . In fact, one
of your correspondents wrote about the madisar mami,
panjakacham and a boxing match between two priests in
a derogatory way after his visit to the temple. Will
he write in the same vein about churches or mosques?

9. The CM has announced a pension of Rs.3000/- to
Arumugaswamy Oduvar, in recognition of his
safe-guarding the tamil culture. The same CM iconizes
EVR who called tamil ‘a barbaric language’ and
tamilians ‘fools’ and also ridiculed tamil greats like
Thiruvalluvar and Kannagi. When it comes to
double-acting, even the late Sivaji Ganesan cannot
match our CM.

Thanking you,

Yours sincerely

N.Mohan, 42-4 canal road, thiruvanmiyur,chennai41
18/3/08

 

[fire]

Brahmins....Projected as goons

Hi,
Though I havent get a view on this, for quite sometime I get the feeling that Brahmins are projected in the wrong side by some malicious people esp the media. They are projected as goons if not terrorists. Has it really happened this way?? I am wondering how can people do like this? From the childhood I didnt aware of any criminal cases booked against Brahmins (til the kanchi mutt issue) and I was not aware of any goons from our community.So I couldnt digest it.I cannot tolerate and keep mum when my country,religion,language,caste attacked for wrong reasons.

Thanks,
Fire

 

[malgova.mango]

The above posts by Saab is in editorial of "Thuglak" , it gives a complete perspective.

What I can't digest, is that the so called "Agmark Brahmins", before getting the full details, how eagerly they put down their own people , their own creed.

Even in the face of "devoid of humanity " comments. I couldn't help but to think .....

True friends help each other at times of hardship and definetly not wash there hands off.

What could be the motive ? I can't understand this. Afterall aren't we brothers.

 

[Saab]

Deaar MMji,

When some people make their own preference they forsake their own kith and kin (such as mother, sister, wife etc.). We should give them the due respect.

Regards,
Saab

 

[Saab]

திருஞானசம்பந்தர் தேவாரம்
மூன்றாம் திருமுறை
திருச்சிற்றம்பலம்

அயர்வுளோம் என்று நீ அசைவொழி நெஞ்சமே
நியர்வளை முன் கையாள் நேரிழையவளொடும்
கயல் வயல் குதிகொளும் கழுமல வளநகர்ப்
பெயர்பல துதிசெயப் பெருந்தகை இருந்ததே. 3.24.4

திருச்சிற்றம்பலம

பொருளுரை:
நெஞ்சமே! நீ, "நாம் அயர்ந்து போனோம்!" என்று தளர்ந்துவிடாதே!
ஒளி மிக்க வளையல்களை அணிந்த கைகளை உடைய,
அணிகலன்களை அணிந்த உமையோடு, கயல் மீன்கள்
வயலிலே குதிக்கின்ற வளமான நகரமாம் திருக்கழுமலத்தில்
தன் பெயர்கள் பலவும் கூறி (நாம்) துதிக்கப் பெருந்தகையாம்
சிவபெருமான் வீற்றிருக்கின்றார்!
Notes:
திருமறைக்காட்டிலிருந்து திருஞானசம்பந்தர் மதுரை மாநகரில்
சமணரை வென்று சைவநீதி தழைக்கச் செய்து வீற்றிருந்தார்.
அவர் தம் தந்தையாராம் சிவபாத இருதயர், பலகாலமாயதால்
பிள்ளையாரைக் காண மதுரை வந்தார். வந்த தந்தையாரிடம்
தம் உயிர்க்குத் தாயும் தந்தையுமாகிய தோணிபுரத்து இறைவன்
இருந்த சிறப்பை பேசி இத்திருப்பதிகம் ஓதினார்.

 

[malgova.mango]

Sir Saab!

Your service on spreading the "thevaram" with detailed explanation is a notable one. I take this opportunity to convey my respects and my wish to see more such posts.

vanakathudan
mm

 

[Saab]

Thank you MMji. I will start a separate thread and post Thevarams.

Regards,
Saab

P.S: I am posting them under Religion section

 

[vanam9394]

Dear all
The following information was released in Tamil Nadu state assembly by DMK Govt.

There are total 6 centers started by TN Govt. for priestly training for non-brahmins in Tamil Nadu.

On total, there are 207

76- Backward class students

55- Most Backward class students

34 - Scheduled caste students

42 - other caste students.

I consider this as epitome of humiliation. If Tamil Brahmins have any back bone, they should move to other states or stop paying taxes to TN Govt. This is time to protest.

 

[KRS]

Dear Vanam9394 Ji,

What is the import of your posting? Where is the humiliation? What should our community be protesting about?

I do not understand your posting at all. Can you elaborate?

Pranams,
KRS

 

[appaiah]

a good series of articles on Chidambaram

Here is a blog where a series of very informative articles on Chidambaram temple is available. It gives insight into the temple, its practices and festivals.

Incidentally it contains some informative write up (without spreading hatred) on the current issue as well.

http://aanmiga-payanam.blogspot.com/

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Appaiah!

Very good link - I enjoyed the thought process of Divakar - good narration. Thanks for the link.

Regards
MM

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri malgova.mango

Did you read the 81 posts that she has made in that series? The author, Ms Geetha Sambasivam, has been writing for the past one year on chidambaram. Very good research work indeed. The entire set can even be published as a book upon conclusion of her blog series. It is such a treasure. (A couple of corrections are needed. In such a volume, that is negligible and can even be ignored.) The author has the natural love for Chidambaram that she involves herself very deeply in every bit of what she writes and this fact is visible.

If you have not read all of them please do read them. There are some write ups exclusively on dikshitars. Those are worth reading too. Their sacrifices during muslim invasions have also been recorded by her and she has given the references to the inscriptions in the temple precincts.

Regards

Appaiah