Dilemma on Marriage when parents are very orthodox

[CHANDRU1849]

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Acharm, Anushtanam, Poojai, Punaskaram and Punaisuruttu are all man made. We can very well change it to our convenience. He requires practical thinking of the current situation and patience to explain this to his parents to accept the reality.

If he wants to marry, he must be realistic and once married, he cannot lead his life like the head of Sankara Mutt. If he attempts, he will definitely go to the point of no return.

 

[sangom]

I request everyone to please read post #7 and post #18 (I am not allowed to give links). I had posted them before this thread got derailed but they seem to have appeared only now because of moderation. I regret now that I was not very clear in my articulation of what type of suggestions I am looking for when I started this thread. My apologies for my mistake.

It is clear to me that my parents and I will have to make compromises. So repeating again and again that there is no girl who is orthodox and is simultaneously well-educated does absolutely nothing to help me. I knew this long before my parents ever started the topic of marriage. My question to the ladies and elders in this forum is what type of expectations are acceptable.

Let me given an example. Dressing; It seems that most females feel any type of restriction placed on their dressing made by their husband or in-laws as sexist. If my parents had their way, my future wife would only be allowed to wear a sari or a salwar kameez when going out and a nightie when at home. Mini-Skirts, t-shirts and jeans will probably be banned. I have female friends who wear a combination of a loose t-shirt or a kurti and loose jeans. Some even add a shawl. According to me this dress no more or no less modest than a salwar kameez and I think it is quite elegant (especially if the shawl is nice!). And I could definitely convince my parents that there is nothing wrong with dressing this way. I am sure there are many Iyer girls who would not find it sexist if I demand that they are not allowed to wear mini-skirts or tight jeans or tight t-shirts or tops that show the arms fully but everything else is fine. I think this is a sensible and intelligent compromise. But as I had mentioned before, I do not know much about what is seen as acceptable as I studied in an insular institution where I had a sum total of three female Tamil Brahmin friends. This might be seen as very sexist (and in fact will be seen that way by some of my female friends) by Iyer girls.

I am asking specifically what are the expectations on my side that are not considered draconian and sexist by females today. If you look at marriage profiles they do not seem to deal with such issues. Most marriage profiles literally have no data more than information that a girl is available for marriage. These are hardly profiles with detailed hobbies, likes and dislikes, and expectations that actually have consequences in day to day interaction. Most girls just write only about income, height and educational qualification. Few of them write things like broad minded, honest, open, supportive. These are the important expectations. I feel that maybe they want to defer the important questions to when they meet a prospective groom personally. But according to me, at this stage, people operate on instinct and do not really choose rationally. For instance, if I were to meet a prospective bride personally ("arranged date"!) and I dress the way I usually dress for my lectures, simple shirt, simple pant and vibuthi everywhere on my forehead, a modern Iyer girl might reject me solely for my dressing style. Now I can't really blame her. Girls and boys alike are attracted to stylishly dressed people. It is possible that in terms of conversation, I might have been the most interesting 'date' she had but she would still not marry me for reasons that will utterly not matter in day-to-day interaction. On the other hand, the same girl with the same exact conversation might accept me if I wore a dress shirt, tucked in and no vibuthi. People automatically assume that anyone who wears simple clothing and so much vibuthi on forehead cannot possibly be broad-minded and will be draconian. This is fallacious argument and I am slightly annoyed that many people in this forum are accusing my parents of being incorrigible and obstinate just because they are orthodox and old-fashioned. Orthodoxy and broad-mindedness are not mutually exclusive. My parents are wonderful people. Every single person in my class (most of my class were Tamil Brahmins) were forced to study engineering by their parents. One of them wanted to be a Paleontologist but his parents were not supportive so he ended up studying bio-technology. My parents told me I can study what ever I want and take how much ever time I want as well for studies. So I have a Ph.D. in pure mathematics. Even now my parents agreed to wait some more time for marriage so that I can do postdoctoral research. I have time till next April and they told they will not give me any more time (I will be 28 by April). They said they have no problem if I get married a few years later but they want to start looking next April so that they feel secure. Since my parents have been so good to me, it is not right that I prioritize only my wants and expectations in a bride just because they are old-fashioned. That is why I started this thread. So I urge people to please refrain from unnecessary name-calling my parents. It adds nothing to the discussion and helps me in no way to resolve my problem. Since most most people in this forum are elder to me, I apologize in advance but please read Matthew 7:5.

"You're nothing but show-offs! First, take the log out of your own eye. Then you can see how to take the speck out of your friend's eye."

The above is what Mathew 7.5 says according to the CE (Contemporary English) Version.

I was hesitant to write one more post in response to you, because it appears to me that what you are attempting through this Forum post is either to generate enough discussions and then thumb your nose and go away, or, to get the impossible possible!

In continuation of my previous post #19, let me say that marriage today especially for a tabra boy, is the mirror version of what it was about 50 years ago. To put it succinctly, it is the girl's side which calls the shots and not the boy's side. Hence, very much like what a tabra man with a daughter to be married off did years ago, your parents will have to go from one girl's parents to another and literally crave before them to take you as their son-in-law and comply with all the terms and conditions stipulated by them. If everything goes well and if some girl (may be non-brahmin or even christian/muslim, since you seem to indicate in your post #7 that you are not expecting a brahmin girl) marries you finally, then the future will be like marrying off a boy to the family of the girl; the only difference being that even now, the gotram change has not become boy taking over the wife's gotram! In spoken Tamil today's marriage for tabra boys is "dhArai vArttu paiyanai koDukkaRatu".

All that I write may be bitter to you because yours is like a Rip Van Winkle story (family) waking up suddenly after 50 years of sleep!

To all the detailed questions and doubts regarding dress and many other matters, the answer is "your wife will lay down the rules and you and your parents, brothers & sisters cannot question her" ; that is the simple untarnished truth. The same thing will happen when your younger brother marries; he will be a boy who will be married off into some other girl's family and will have to adjust himself to that family's values, acaram, madi, theeTTu, etc.

So, despite whatever other opinions you may get in this forum and which may be apparently sweet, this bitter medicine will be what can cure the problems arising from marriage. Just to round off, the daughter of one of my cousins who is a kaTTuppeTTi and AcArakkOtai, etc., married a boy whose family is also orthodox to a certain extent. This girl (whom I knew from very early childhood) is now a very senior executive in a big IT company. She dresses up in very tight and revealing jeans, sleeveless shirts, mini-skirts and so on. This it is rumoured, is not liked by either her parents (my cousin and his wife), the girl's in-laws or even by her husband but when this topic is broached, she says nobody has any business in how she dresses and if they don't like they can leave her house. Incidentally she has her own palatial flat in which her husband and her in-laws also live; her parents live in another suburb. This is the reality today.

 

[shunyampurnam]

Most of the members writing here feel that to follow madi and AchAram daily is almost impossible for this generation girls.

There used to be a saying that a marriage will finalize if 'anjukku reNdu pazhuthillai', meaning that if 40% of the expectations

are fulfilled, a marriage would be finalized. But now a days, the expectations are more and orthodox way of living is declining

in the well educated families and they stick to AchAram only on special days like poojAs and srAddhams!

If couples live away from their parents, then adjusting to the orthodox way of life for a few days in a year may not be a problem.

But, if they have to live together under the same roof, life will be surely miserable for all of them!

I agree that the rules of Acharam are impossible to follow in today's world but that in itself is not a reason for abandoning them. The rules of daily conduct that modern urbanized tamil brahmins follow are just as harsh. But people do not feel that it is harsh because they are so used to it and they feel it is a choice and not enforced. I will give an example of a rule that is enforced on me by urban society that I am forced to follow. I am supposed to dress in a particular way to be considered elite and educated. If I were to go and give a lecture on mathematics dressed in dhothi, angavastram and body smeared with vibuthi, people will think I am crazy (which I am to some extent!). I would prefer a dhothi, angavastram any day to shirt pant as they are way more comfortable. But society will ridicule me and I am dependent on society for my earning and will have to change myself. At least, in the institution I work in I will probably be allowed to come dressed up like this as it is a research institution and people will be up in arms if somebody enforces a dress code. But, if were to join a company then people would think it "unprofessional" to dress the way I dress. Somebody mentioned previously that a husband was forced to become more modern by letting go of tuft, etc. by modern wife. If you think about it, the wife's actions are just as questionable and morally wrong as my parents enforcing a dress code for their daughter-in-law. Why do people feel that the modern wife did nothing wrong whereas the same people feel my parents are being too old-fashioned? At the end of the day both parties are interfering in the personal freedom of somebody else. It is because the wife is interfering in way that makes the husband more appealing to society whereas my parents dictates make the daughter-in-law look lesser in the eyes of society.

And why do people not mind following Acharam for special pooja days? Or for that matter why do modern urbanized Iyers who are quite well off perform things like ganapathy homam? Either they believe in the ritual or are doing it for absolutely no reason. If they do believe in the ritual, then believing in madi acharam everyday is no more or no less rational than believing that pouring ghee in fire is somehow going to make your life better. The people who say that following acharam is difficult are following, from my perspective, rules that are just as difficult, arcane and completely arbitrary. My parents view madi acharam as a minor inconvenience to be put of with, just like modern buisness iyers feel it a minor inconvenience to follow all sorts of crazy dressing rules and table manner when eating in a business luncheon in a fancy restaurant. Has any one looked at fork etiquette? If somebody forces me to eat following these stupid rules, I will throw the knife and fork away and start eating with hand. Which is what modern Iyer girls are doing to acharam. They are rejecting all the rules of acharam which seem stupid in their eyes. Which is absolutely fine. We live in a free country after all. But, when the same girls say that they are more liberal, I get irked. They are not. They have just defined their perspective as liberal and every other perspective as non-liberal. Otherwise, why would a wife force the husband to remove the tuft and still call herself liberal?

In an ideal world, people should be completely indifferent to other people's personal choices. But, we don't live an ideal world. Traditional Iyers and modern iyers alike want to enforce their viewpoints on others. I think this is the heart of the problem that people like me who are caught between the two are struggling with. I would not like to a impose single rule in the personal matters of my wife and would like the same from her. But this is not possible because of my parents. They will be horrified if my wife dresses up in a low-cut mini-dress. So, I want to know what are the things I can expect without it being unfair to my future wife. Am I allowed to expect her to dress in a particular way? Am I allowed to expect her to cook for my parents? Can I expect her to stay with my parents? I don't really know. And please don't tell me this is something that cannot be answered by the ladies and elders in the forum here. A number of my cousins have gotten married after the talked briefly about such expectation to their wives and they agreed. Only to backtrack after a few years. Now their families have lost peace of mind and are miserable. I don't want to make the same mistake and need the informed opinions of ladies and elders on how to tackle such delicate issues. I have a learnt some expectations are reasonable. It seems it is okay to expect acharam on special days but not okay to expect this on a daily basis. This actually is very helpful. My father does nithy pooja in house everyday and since I will be doing it after him, I will cook the rice for navidhiyam and not expect my wife to take head bath and wear madi clothes and cook rice everyday. I think it is a reasonable compromise. Similarly on her three days, she can move freely in my house but not in my parents house (my parents and I live in the same building but different floors). I will cook for her the three days. I don't know whether girls will find this reasonable or not. Such suggestions will be very helpful as I am practically clueless in these matters. Most of the suggestions in this forums seem to be on the lines of completely abandoning traditions and orthodoxy and marry a girl of my liking. I cannot do this with a clear conscience. It would mean abandoning the nithya pooja which has been performed for at least 4 generations. Of course, I will freely admit that this tempting. I get to marry a girl of my liking and will no longer have to be an "ambi" as some people have so eloquently put but I don't think I can do this without regretting later. Hopefully, now I have made my dilemma crystal clear. If the only solution is to either marry a poor not highly educated girl or not marry at all, so be it. I am not entitled to get what I want. I just want to make sure that I try my absolute best to see if my preferences and my parents preferences can be reasonably balanced.

So many people have given their views and opinions. Though many of them are not useful to me, I still appreciate people taking the time to put down their thoughts. I cannot individually reply to all of them and answer the questions they have raised as I have already spent a lot of time in the past 2 days following this thread and I need to prepare of lectures. Thank you all!

 

[shunyampurnam]

"You're nothing but show-offs! First, take the log out of your own eye. Then you can see how to take the speck out of your friend's eye."

The above is what Mathew 7.5 says according to the CE (Contemporary English) Version.

I was hesitant to write one more post in response to you, because it appears to me that what you are attempting through this Forum post is either to generate enough discussions and then thumb your nose and go away, or, to get the impossible possible!

In continuation of my previous post #19, let me say that marriage today especially for a tabra boy, is the mirror version of what it was about 50 years ago. To put it succinctly, it is the girl's side which calls the shots and not the boy's side. Hence, very much like what a tabra man with a daughter to be married off did years ago, your parents will have to go from one girl's parents to another and literally crave before them to take you as their son-in-law and comply with all the terms and conditions stipulated by them. If everything goes well and if some girl (may be non-brahmin or even christian/muslim, since you seem to indicate in your post #7 that you are not expecting a brahmin girl) marries you finally, then the future will be like marrying off a boy to the family of the girl; the only difference being that even now, the gotram change has not become boy taking over the wife's gotram! In spoken Tamil today's marriage for tabra boys is "dhArai vArttu paiyanai koDukkaRatu".

All that I write may be bitter to you because yours is like a Rip Van Winkle story (family) waking up suddenly after 50 years of sleep!

To all the detailed questions and doubts regarding dress and many other matters, the answer is "your wife will lay down the rules and you and your parents, brothers & sisters cannot question her" ; that is the simple untarnished truth. The same thing will happen when your younger brother marries; he will be a boy who will be married off into some other girl's family and will have to adjust himself to that family's values, acaram, madi, theeTTu, etc.

So, despite whatever other opinions you may get in this forum and which may be apparently sweet, this bitter medicine will be what can cure the problems arising from marriage. Just to round off, the daughter of one of my cousins who is a kaTTuppeTTi and AcArakkOtai, etc., married a boy whose family is also orthodox to a certain extent. This girl (whom I knew from very early childhood) is now a very senior executive in a big IT company. She dresses up in very tight and revealing jeans, sleeveless shirts, mini-skirts and so on. This it is rumoured, is not liked by either her parents (my cousin and his wife), the girl's in-laws or even by her husband but when this topic is broached, she says nobody has any business in how she dresses and if they don't like they can leave her house. Incidentally she has her own palatial flat in which her husband and her in-laws also live; her parents live in another suburb. This is the reality today.

I am really sorry if that is the way you feel but I did mean to offend you and then run away. I am genuinely curious on how these delicate issues are managed. As I have reiterated many times, I am not asking for the impossible. I just want to make sure that that there is no compromise possible between my parents expectations and mine. Then I can make an informed decision on whether to get married to an orthodox girl from a poor background or stay single. If (God forbid) my parents were not around any more, then I will happily expand my horizons without worrying too much about orthodoxy from my life-partner. But I will continue to follow some of the traditions which place restrictions on me but not my wife. Please do not attribute intention to words on an internet forum. It is difficult convey tone and intention in writing. That is why I quoted Matthew, don't keep looking for mal-intention in others when there is none. My sincere apologies if I was wrong.

If I am to understand this latest post, your viewpoint is the guy placing any restriction on his wife is just asking for trouble. So the wife in tamil brahmin marriages is the dominant one. They do not consider the husband as an equal but as a inferior to them. Expecting otherwise is being stuck in the past. Am I right in this interpretation?

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear SP,

If you live in a separate floor in the same building in which your parents live, where is the need to worry so much?

Let your parents choose a few profiles for you (may be a difficult task, though) and talk to the girls and finalize one of them.

Or, find a suitable girl by yourself and let your parents know her and then get married. All the best to you!

P.S: Do it before you hit 30. Now a days, boys are considered seniors at that age; but girls are not!

 

[krish44]

Dear SP,

If you live in a separate floor in the same building in which your parents live, where is the need to worry so much?

Let your parents choose a few profiles for you (may be a difficult task, though) and talk to the girls and finalize one of them.

Or, find a suitable girl by yourself and let your parents know her and then get married. All the best to you!

P.S: Do it before you hit 30. Now a days, boys are considered seniors at that age; but girls are not!

Rajiramji
I have given 12 matrimonial profiles on tamil matrimony -all are educated girls 23-25 , tamil iyers who say they are traditional and orthodox.

let us see if s.purnam develops enough courage to proceed further.

most are like this.

they only want to discuss imagined non existent issues ,develop cold feet and do nothing.

you know thats why many boys remain unmarried.

 

[shunyampurnam]

Rajiramji
I have given 12 matrimonial profiles on tamil matrimony -all are educated girls 23-25 , tamil iyers who say they are traditional and orthodox.

let us see if s.purnam develops enough courage to proceed further.

most are like this.

they only want to discuss imagined non existent issues ,develop cold feet and do nothing.

you know thats why many boys remain unmarried.

Thank you for your effort! My parents will start searching for me in 7 months time. I will tell them to register me on Tamil Matrimony and if somehow things workout I will let you know. Some of these 12 girls might be married off by then but I am sure if there are 12 girls now, there will be 12 girls next April also. And I should be able to find them.

Just one query, if speak to a girl frankly about my hesitations and confusions, will they take it in the right spirit? What do people actually talk about in these "arranged dates"?

 

[a-TB]

Dear S Purnam
If you float a profile in tamil matrimony , Try the following profiles of girls who are traditional and who declare they are orthodox.

All are well educated, employed .iyer girls

M 2924299, M3843445,M 3744824, M 3669896,M3977285, M 3978453, M 3883015, M39499585,M3520955, M3979433, M3832232, M 3936278.

This should convince you that you are not alone as an orthodox person.There are 12 profiles for your requirements to prove others talking here do not know the

ground realities. Orthodoxy is wide spread. At least in profiles they say they are orthodox.

All you need to do is that after registering your profile and paying a fee , you can do keyword search with words 23-25 yrs ,orthodox and get amazing results.lol

You have a wide choice for pick and choose.

With best wishes

I may have been loggerheads with you about your views of NRI.

But I have to say you have been most helpful to this fellow going the extra mile. It is very kind of you

 

[sangom]

I am really sorry if that is the way you feel but I did mean to offend you and then run away. I am genuinely curious on how these delicate issues are managed. As I have reiterated many times, I am not asking for the impossible. I just want to make sure that that there is no compromise possible between my parents expectations and mine. Then I can make an informed decision on whether to get married to an orthodox girl from a poor background or stay single. If (God forbid) my parents were not around any more, then I will happily expand my horizons without worrying too much about orthodoxy from my life-partner. But I will continue to follow some of the traditions which place restrictions on me but not my wife. Please do not attribute intention to words on an internet forum. It is difficult convey tone and intention in writing. That is why I quoted Matthew, don't keep looking for mal-intention in others when there is none. My sincere apologies if I was wrong.

It is by now more than clear to most Tabras have well understood the position that "the table is turned" against the boy, as far as tabra marriages are concerned. This will be more so if the boy has some deficiencies. (One of my distant relatives with two boys, had to go (along with his wife) to the girl's parents' house more than ten times, in order to make them (the girl's parents) to take a sympathetic view of 'his younger son's case' because his son is just a graduate only and has a small job in a private company in Kerala and the boy is a little fat, may be slightly obese. The girl is a near six-footer, well-built or athletic, an accomplished Judo & Karate fighter, can ride a bullet motor cycle and is an air hostess in an international (foreign) airline, drawing very good salary and perquisites. The couple are completely mismatched for outward appearance, but so far (nearly one year after marriage) there is no news of any trouble.)

That was why I got the feeling that much like some past threads here, this one also could be an "imagined" case brought up so as to kindle fiery discussions and then to be forsaken.

If I am to understand this latest post, your viewpoint is the guy placing any restriction on his wife is just asking for trouble. So the wife in tamil brahmin marriages is the dominant one. They do not consider the husband as an equal but as a inferior to them. Expecting otherwise is being stuck in the past. Am I right in this interpretation?

A marriage today is not a traditional sacrament as many hindutva proponents still put it out. Whatever fire, homa, priest/vAdhyAr, mumbo-jumbo of mantras, etc., are performed are completely irrelevant to the legal contract of marriage. In this contract the male and female are not only completely equals, but, due the present laws and the scarcity of marriageable girls (in tabra community) the female has the upper hand. Even if you go for a Christian or Muslim girl (which I think is not your idea) or a non-brahmin hindu girl, those girls also know the demand-supply theory and will find out in a jiffy that you are marrying from outside your caste/religion because you are unable to get a suitable girl from your own community.

Husband today is not equal but only an "app" as per mobile parlance, and this will be more so if the girl is beautiful, educated, well-endowed and has good earnings, the husband will move from the "app" status to a "possession" status to mere "I own" status (just like possessing something worth it - BMW or Posche car, private jet, yatch, holiday island etc.,) to very ordinary ownership like - an ambassador car, 1BHK flat in some lower middle class area, etc.

In conclusion I can only say that my words are not "show-offs" as Mathew says. FYI, my youngest son, now 45, had decided quite some years ago, not to get married because he knew the way things are going with his friends who got married and are "bearing it with a grin". We, the parents were open, right from the beginning, for any alliance he felt OK, even if it were a foreign girl from his country of emigration. (My son is well off and earns well, good looking, tall, slim and healthy.)

 

[sangom]

I agree that the rules of Acharam are impossible to follow in today's world but that in itself is not a reason for abandoning them. The rules of daily conduct that modern urbanized tamil brahmins follow are just as harsh. But people do not feel that it is harsh because they are so used to it and they feel it is a choice and not enforced. I will give an example of a rule that is enforced on me by urban society that I am forced to follow. I am supposed to dress in a particular way to be considered elite and educated. If I were to go and give a lecture on mathematics dressed in dhothi, angavastram and body smeared with vibuthi, people will think I am crazy (which I am to some extent!). I would prefer a dhothi, angavastram any day to shirt pant as they are way more comfortable. But society will ridicule me and I am dependent on society for my earning and will have to change myself. At least, in the institution I work in I will probably be allowed to come dressed up like this as it is a research institution and people will be up in arms if somebody enforces a dress code. But, if were to join a company then people would think it "unprofessional" to dress the way I dress. Somebody mentioned previously that a husband was forced to become more modern by letting go of tuft, etc. by modern wife. If you think about it, the wife's actions are just as questionable and morally wrong as my parents enforcing a dress code for their daughter-in-law. Why do people feel that the modern wife did nothing wrong whereas the same people feel my parents are being too old-fashioned? At the end of the day both parties are interfering in the personal freedom of somebody else. It is because the wife is interfering in way that makes the husband more appealing to society whereas my parents dictates make the daughter-in-law look lesser in the eyes of society.

And why do people not mind following Acharam for special pooja days? Or for that matter why do modern urbanized Iyers who are quite well off perform things like ganapathy homam? Either they believe in the ritual or are doing it for absolutely no reason. If they do believe in the ritual, then believing in madi acharam everyday is no more or no less rational than believing that pouring ghee in fire is somehow going to make your life better. The people who say that following acharam is difficult are following, from my perspective, rules that are just as difficult, arcane and completely arbitrary. My parents view madi acharam as a minor inconvenience to be put of with, just like modern buisness iyers feel it a minor inconvenience to follow all sorts of crazy dressing rules and table manner when eating in a business luncheon in a fancy restaurant. Has any one looked at fork etiquette? If somebody forces me to eat following these stupid rules, I will throw the knife and fork away and start eating with hand. Which is what modern Iyer girls are doing to acharam. They are rejecting all the rules of acharam which seem stupid in their eyes. Which is absolutely fine. We live in a free country after all. But, when the same girls say that they are more liberal, I get irked. They are not. They have just defined their perspective as liberal and every other perspective as non-liberal. Otherwise, why would a wife force the husband to remove the tuft and still call herself liberal?

In an ideal world, people should be completely indifferent to other people's personal choices. But, we don't live an ideal world. Traditional Iyers and modern iyers alike want to enforce their viewpoints on others. I think this is the heart of the problem that people like me who are caught between the two are struggling with. I would not like to a impose single rule in the personal matters of my wife and would like the same from her. But this is not possible because of my parents. They will be horrified if my wife dresses up in a low-cut mini-dress. So, I want to know what are the things I can expect without it being unfair to my future wife. Am I allowed to expect her to dress in a particular way? Am I allowed to expect her to cook for my parents? Can I expect her to stay with my parents? I don't really know. And please don't tell me this is something that cannot be answered by the ladies and elders in the forum here. A number of my cousins have gotten married after the talked briefly about such expectation to their wives and they agreed. Only to backtrack after a few years. Now their families have lost peace of mind and are miserable. I don't want to make the same mistake and need the informed opinions of ladies and elders on how to tackle such delicate issues. I have a learnt some expectations are reasonable. It seems it is okay to expect acharam on special days but not okay to expect this on a daily basis. This actually is very helpful. My father does nithy pooja in house everyday and since I will be doing it after him, I will cook the rice for navidhiyam and not expect my wife to take head bath and wear madi clothes and cook rice everyday. I think it is a reasonable compromise. Similarly on her three days, she can move freely in my house but not in my parents house (my parents and I live in the same building but different floors). I will cook for her the three days. I don't know whether girls will find this reasonable or not. Such suggestions will be very helpful as I am practically clueless in these matters. Most of the suggestions in this forums seem to be on the lines of completely abandoning traditions and orthodoxy and marry a girl of my liking. I cannot do this with a clear conscience. It would mean abandoning the nithya pooja which has been performed for at least 4 generations. Of course, I will freely admit that this tempting. I get to marry a girl of my liking and will no longer have to be an "ambi" as some people have so eloquently put but I don't think I can do this without regretting later. Hopefully, now I have made my dilemma crystal clear. If the only solution is to either marry a poor not highly educated girl or not marry at all, so be it. I am not entitled to get what I want. I just want to make sure that I try my absolute best to see if my preferences and my parents preferences can be reasonably balanced.

So many people have given their views and opinions. Though many of them are not useful to me, I still appreciate people taking the time to put down their thoughts. I cannot individually reply to all of them and answer the questions they have raised as I have already spent a lot of time in the past 2 days following this thread and I need to prepare of lectures. Thank you all!

Shri S.P.,

For all the points/issues etc., raised by you in the above post, the answer is frighteningly simple and that is, you a boy in the prime of youth, are yearning for something, say YYY, which only that girl marrying you can give you and not even your parents, their madi, acharam, dress code, table manners and so on can give you! (I cannot be more explicit than this, in an open forum.) That YYY has now become a rare commodity and anyone possessing it calls the shots. (There is a Tamil proverb which goes, "taDiyeDuttavan taNDalkkAran" which in hindi becomes "jiski lAThi uski bhains". The position here can be got by replacing taDi with another word!)

It was therefore that the tufted guy cut off his tuft and the many other instances given. Comparison with the madi & acaram of parents is not even worth consideration because of the primary axiom viz., "what the wife can give, but parents cannot". If you keep parents and wife as equal under law, then you must be satisfied with your parents' madi & acaram and not even consider YYY. Then you will be the new age "Sukabrahmam".

I hope you have now understood the point.

 

[shunyampurnam]

Husband today is not equal but only an "app" as per mobile parlance, and this will be more so if the girl is beautiful, educated, well-endowed and has good earnings, the husband will move from the "app" status to a "possession" status to mere "I own" status (just like possessing something worth it - BMW or Posche car, private jet, yatch, holiday island etc.,) to very ordinary ownership like - an ambassador car, 1BHK flat in some lower middle class area, etc.

In conclusion I can only say that my words are not "show-offs" as Mathew says. FYI, my youngest son, now 45, had decided quite some years ago, not to get married because he knew the way things are going with his friends who got married and are "bearing it with a grin". We, the parents were open, right from the beginning, for any alliance he felt OK, even if it were a foreign girl from his country of emigration. (My son is well off and earns well, good looking, tall, slim and healthy.)

I find this too difficult to digest. Every human being is shallow to some extent, but I sincerely doubt that most Tamil Brahmin girls are this shallow. There might be some girls like this but then again there are guys even today who treat their wives like slaves. The reason I am doubting your words is because people cannot be so unaware of their shallowness. Especially women who have fought really hard to attain equal status. Are girls trying to take revenge for centuries of suppression? It makes no sense because a relationship were husband and wife treat each other as equals will definitely lead to more happiness for each other than one dominating the other. In short, I don't believe you. I think your family and closed friends have had bad experiences and you are generalizing to all girls. This is called sampling bias and is a big problem in many research studies.

The only reason I quoted Matthew was because I was rather annoyed about your comments about my parents. You hardly know anything about them apart from the fact that they are orthodox. That does not make them incorrigible. I apologize again if I offended you in any way.

I was wondering if there is a non-lame reason to get married. Maybe I found one but I am not sure.
http://i.imgur.com/O84Bgoe.gifv
The scene depicted above is priceless and might actually make all the hassles of marriage worth it!

 

[shunyampurnam]

Shri S.P.,

For all the points/issues etc., raised by you in the above post, the answer is frighteningly simple and that is, you a boy in the prime of youth, are yearning for something, say YYY, which only that girl marrying you can give you and not even your parents, their madi, acharam, dress code, table manners and so on can give you! (I cannot be more explicit than this, in an open forum.) That YYY has now become a rare commodity and anyone possessing it calls the shots. (There is a Tamil proverb which goes, "taDiyeDuttavan taNDalkkAran" which in hindi becomes "jiski lAThi uski bhains". The position here can be got by replacing taDi with another word!)

It was therefore that the tufted guy cut off his tuft and the many other instances given. Comparison with the madi & acaram of parents is not even worth consideration because of the primary axiom viz., "what the wife can give, but parents cannot". If you keep parents and wife as equal under law, then you must be satisfied with your parents' madi & acaram and not even consider YYY. Then you will be the new age "Sukabrahmam".

I hope you have now understood the point.

I assume YYY means sex. I don't think discussing sex should be a taboo. All humans have two types needs satisfied to be happy:
[1]. Physical needs: Air, food, water, shelter and sleep
[2]. Psychological needs: Self-esteem, autonomy, security and connection.

Sex is neither a physical need nor psychological need. People somehow erroneously assume that sex is a need without which we cannot be happy. This is not true. This is argued beautifully in this article with references to research papers http://markmanson.net/sex-and-our-psychological-needs (NSFW for those who know what this acronym means!).

To put it in a simple way. Sex is like having Ice-cream. Just thinking about ice cream makes me want eat it. Just thinking about eating it makes me happy. But I cannot have ice cream now. I will have to wait and that has slightly affected my happiness by a small amount. But five minutes from now I would be doing something else that is making me happy and I would have forgotten that there is such a thing called ice cream. As long as the psychological needs of humans are satisfied in other ways like sports, exercise, etc. the fact that a human is deprived of sex has almost zero affect on his/her happiness. To make a stronger argument the urge of sex is highest when you are in the 17-25 range after which libido slowly starts decreasing. At least for males Testosterone levels are highest in this age range. If people can control their urges at the peak of their desires because their minds are preoccupied with college and in general living life, why can't people in their 30's be happily single? I accept that when you hit 40's and 50's it would be nice to have company because by that age the ability to immerse oneself in work gets lost. Having someone around to share experiences with and satisfy our psychoilogical needs is far easier than sports and exercise. Even thinking ability greatly diminishes in the 40s. Very few pioneering mathematical discoveries have been made by mathematicians above the age of 40. But what is point in worrying about 40's and 50s now. We should cross the bridge when it comes.

That is why I have mentioned repeatedly that I don't really mind being single if I things don't work out for me. If I can get ice cream it would be nice. If not, it will have an affect on my happiness but it will definitely not be as drastic as Sangom seems to think.

 

[krish44]

Thank you for your effort! My parents will start searching for me in 7 months time. I will tell them to register me on Tamil Matrimony and if somehow things workout I will let you know. Some of these 12 girls might be married off by then but I am sure if there are 12 girls now, there will be 12 girls next April also. And I should be able to find them.

Just one query, if speak to a girl frankly about my hesitations and confusions, will they take it in the right spirit? What do people actually talk about in these "arranged dates"?

Look Purnam, the way you pick and choose ,the girls also do that. They will also size you up the way you would like, to find out if you will fit in with their plans.

In initial phase the parents of the girl would look at your profile [photo, acad , job details, parents details] , You would require atleast two photos one full length another

passport size. You would need to post these along withyour horoscope along with gothra and star.You can start getting them made as it takes time to cast one if you do

not have one.

You require Date of birth ,time and place of birth for that to be given to an astrologer who will do it for you..

You can also indicate your hobbies and interests.

You can mention that you belong to a traditional , orthodox family and looking for a similar match.Pl do no more elaboration on how you practise orthodoxy and

what things like acharam etc you would like the girl to observe in your family. These are best left unsaid

You can also elaborate what you are looking for in the prospective match in terms of professional life , shared hobbies and interests

Your profile describes you. You need to write a neat concise one that appeals to the person reading it. It is an art by itself.

Be honest but do not be over transparent describing the details of your orthodoxy. your plight to balance orthodoxy and modernity. All face the same dilemma

like you

When you have a chance to talk to the girl, let the girl talk more and listen . Try to see if you can bond with her.

If you go on a date , be on best behaviour and observe the social courtesies.

Also first one or two transactions with girls will turn out to be disasters and you might learn from it what to say and not say.lol

Normally the third clicks.

Try not to damage the relationship in the first attempt.

It takes quite a lot of time for an inexperienced person to get a match.

My suggestion is start now instead of later.

You can write the profile and get parents OK.

You can give your and parents contact in the profile with best time to call.


Never keep any party waiting. Promptly call and say no as nicely as possible if do not want an alliance,

Talk about your requirements only after two or three meetings after you understand the girl very well.

pl contact me if you want any help

with best wishes

 

[krish44]

I may have been loggerheads with you about your views of NRI.

But I have to say you have been most helpful to this fellow going the extra mile. It is very kind of you

There is a hidden personality trait which comes out when someone desperately needs help and I am in a position to help.

I would do what I do for this boy for a NRI boy or girl also who has a liberal mindset and who is equally helpless in finding a match suiting his/her mindset and

city/country of residence.

young people anywhere require help in matters of heart and most have utterly no idea how to transact the marriage land mine

 

[renuka]

Just one query, if speak to a girl frankly about my hesitations and confusions, will they take it in the right spirit? What do people actually talk about in these "arranged dates"?

Since I am a female let me help you out here.

On a first "arranged date" do not talk so much about your hesitations and confusions..that would scare off any girl becos most girls are looking for a male that would take the lead in life..a sort of "protector" for her.

Even though you might think discussing all these is being honest but it will be translated as being anxious and a potential difficult person to live with.

Most of us had an arranged marriage..even I had an arranged marriage..I am not a TB but I can give you some tips on what to speak to a potential bride on the 1st meeting.

1)Firstly dress up well..every girls crazy of a sharp dress man! Believe me..1st impressions count.

2)Don't go too traditional or too modern..try fusion..semi traditional with a hint of being in trend without being detached entirely from tradition and the modern world at the same time.

3)Smile..have good eye contact..but do not stare.

4)Start off the discussion by asking her about where she studied..where she works.
That would be good for starting up a conversation.

5)Then tell her about your studies..your job and open up slowly to keep the conversation going.

6)Then slowly talk about your hobbies and ask her what are her hobbies..Do not ask her if she has the same hobbies as you..cos that would come across as only wanting a clone.
Let her talk about her hobbies freely and show some appreciation for her hobbies.

7)You can even ask her about movies..her favorite type of movies..proceed to music etc.

8)Don't go too domestic..don't ask her about what she can cook etc..any normal girl can cook..so there is no problems for this.

This few tips should help.

 

[renuka]

. For instance, I spend at least a couple of hours a day on video games. .

Wow!

Couple of hours?

Scary..most females might not really like a person who is glued to video games..those who play video games a lot tend to not really communicate as much verbally and neglect some important duties.Video games do cause mental fatigue and not to mention affecting the sleep cycle at times..leaving very less energy for more meaningful activities.It even affects the sex life of couples.

Too much video games eventually makes a person short tempered an easily irritated and there is a tendency to lash out fast cos the mind is used to reacting at a very high speed during the games.

Virtual games become a "reality" and we react as fast even in real life and that means less mental inhibition capacity which means not filtering our thoughts as not to hurt the feelings of others...the finer feelings go into latent mode.


I can only wish you get a bride that loves video games too. Do females really love playing video games? I wonder.

Best of luck.

 

[Raji Ram]

.......... My parents will start searching for me in 7 months time. ..........

Wow! This IS the main point. The search will start by the parents in 7 months - Guru palan, I guess.

A better idea will be to search from now on and finalize the wedding when Guru palan is prevailing!

BTW, most of the educated girls are open in discussions in 'arranged dates'. They know what they want!

 

[Raji Ram]

Very nice tutorial, Renu! :clap2:

The word 'tutorial' reminds me of Vaagmi Sir! Where is he? :spy:

 

[Raji Ram]

Mothers of the girls in the 'marriage market' are the most powerful! I am talking about arranged marriages.

The moms have a set of Qs to be answered, before they 'decide' to show their girl to the new family. One 'mom' had one hour chat

with the parents of a guy in our family circle, before she decided to have a meeting with the guy (parents were not needed!!) at a

restaurant. The girl was doing her own business in IT field. :thumb:

 

[Raji Ram]

Overheard in one of the wedding receptions:

Mom of a ten year old girl tells her friend that she will demand 10 lakhs as 'varadhakshiNai' for her daughter's marriage!

The way cost of living goes up, it might become ten folds, when the real marriage happens!

 

[tks]

.
.
.
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That was why I got the feeling that much like some past threads here, this one also could be an "imagined" case brought up so as to kindle fiery discussions and then to be forsaken.
.
.
.

Insightful Probably someone who knows you and others well? ;-)

 

[krish44]

Mothers of the girls in the 'marriage market' are the most powerful! I am talking about arranged marriages.

The moms have a set of Qs to be answered, before they 'decide' to show their girl to the new family. One 'mom' had one hour chat

with the parents of a guy in our family circle, before she decided to have a meeting with the guy (parents were not needed!!) at a

restaurant. The girl was doing her own business in IT field. :thumb:

.

With Q and A sessions and interviews of girls mother with boy and his parents, one is tempted to think that mothers make good marriage material.

Mothers make up for what they could not do in their younger days when they got married.

By the way , boys in love should cultivate mother of the girl first before attempting to propose

 

[Raji Ram]

............ That was why I got the feeling that much like some past threads here, this one also could be an "imagined" case brought up so as to kindle fiery discussions and then to be forsaken........

Happens often because we are never tired of 'araccha mAvu'!

 

[krish44]

In business schools case studies are used as aids to teach business concepts.

Case studies here are good fodder material for exercising our brains.

If they happen to be true , some may benefit from our joint wisdom in tackling a serious issue.

 

[CHANDRU1849]

Overheard in one of the wedding receptions:

Mom of a ten year old girl tells her friend that she will demand 10 lakhs as 'varadhakshiNai' for her daughter's marriage!

The way cost of living goes up, it might become ten folds, when the real marriage happens!

This situation may continue to prevail, as long as same caste and sect marriage exists and identifying a suitable B bride.