Discrimination - can it be stopped?

[amala]

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Biswa and Amala,

This one is for you both -- Our Journey - How we know caste - YouTube

This is how most of us (including me) were, when we were younger. But how we grow up..sigh..

The guy in yellow shirt, justifying discrimination around time 4.40 in the video, sounds so familiar, no?

Compare two different things as 'discrimnation', and get away with casteism...

Amala,

Please watch the video carefully....one of the girls who changed their minds could be you. Our misconceptions do help to perpetuate caste-discrimination, don't they...

I always thot ignorance breeds arrongance. Those who arrogate themselves into a caste, do so because they do not know how their caste group originated.

When folks understand what the system is about, they ofcourse talk about their caste, but they no longer hold on to it rigidly. Meaning they can turn kind...

Ofcourse if prejudice is inherent, then there is no choice but to keep it. Thankfully that inherent prejudice does have an end, in our grave. Sooner or later time has a way of undoing things..

Regards.

HH i dont live in India nor ever see myself living there. I don't discriminate or ever see myself perpetuating caste discrimination in the distant future.

Contrast this with a friend of mine who i feel rather dejected about. This person goes on about how caste is meaningless etc but didn't put her money where her mouth is and married (or fell in love rather conveniently) with a Brahmin. See how people are? They espouse one thing in public about not believing in caste etc and do the complete opposite in their private life.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH,

I never said caste discrimination is not wrong. I merely said it is inevitable, doesnt mean it makes it right. I wasn't trying to justify casteism at all.I never said legislation is useless. You did. I said that is all we can do legislate. I also said people need to change their hearts. Otherwise you get covert castists like covert racists. That to me is utter total hypocrisy.

Thankyou dear Amala..am happy to stand corrected. Am glad i misunderstood your post. Your views are important to me dear amala. Because you are the younger generation. I hope you do view this youtube link Our Journey - How we know caste - YouTube

Cheers !!

 

[sangom]

HH i dont live in India nor ever see myself living there. I don't discriminate or ever see myself perpetuating caste discrimination in the distant future.

Contrast this with a friend of mine who i feel rather dejected about. This person goes on about how caste is meaningless etc but didn't put her money where her mouth is and married (or fell in love rather conveniently) with a Brahmin. See how people are? They espouse one thing in public about not believing in caste etc and do the complete opposite in their private life.

Kum. amala,

One doubt I have on reading the above is, is your friend a B or NB? This is just for info. But I presume she is a B and is married to a B; what is wrong with it? Or, is it your view that all persons who say caste is meaningless, must avoid Bs and marry into other castes only?

I feel that despite our individual views about caste, casteism, etc., what is important is that we do not discriminate any person merely on the basis of caste. If it so happens that you take a liking to a person who is B, or is of your own caste by chance, it will by itself not prove that you are a casteist in your outlook.

 

[prasad1]

All this caste stuff, is it mostly in the villages or in the small towns? All my teachers and my employers have treated me well regardless of their caste or mine.

Being in big cities all my life, I don't remember being ever asked my caste (until of course I joined this forum)

Biswa you are so right, but then again I never lived in Tamil Nadu. Having left India in 70s I did not encounter the caste issue either. I never new the resentment for or against caste based division. Even now it seems that it is historic and now being used for votes in politics. I do not see any institutionalized use of caste based division in India in public. If people are practicing it in private, nothing can be done except education and social pressure to change.

In a similar fashion in US the overt racism is put down strongly in public forum like housing, jobs, and in reporting. There is this strong urge to be politically correct, so that people do not get upset. Private feelings and prejudice can not be legislated. In Alabama, Mississippi, Oklahoma, etc it is very different. Racism is tolerated much more than in big cities.
Reuters reported 11/30/11:
"Nine members of Gulnare Freewill Baptist Church backed their former pastor, with six opposed, in Sunday's vote to bar interracial couples from church membership and worship activities. Funerals were excluded."

Kentucky church votes to ban interracial couples - Yahoo! News

 

[prasad1]

The word "discrimination" does not apply to casteism. The actual word is "oppression". That is, "suppression" in the name of caste. Some folks have have wielded the sword of dharmashastras for too long (without dirtying themelves ofcourse, the dirtying job was done thru their arms, the stupid 'kshatriyas').

Megalomaniacs have played around enough, all the time trying to continue casteism either thru the colonial white man's courts, or using subversive tactics in a democracy, abusing hindu scriptures to continue the adharma, misleading people with wrong information, and through the political hindutva agenda.

I think such casteists should worry about themselves. They need not bother about BC and MBC and such things.

If you want to hijack this thread I can not stop you, but I still want to protest that my original post was not about caste. You have a tendency to interject caste in every one of your post. You are consumed by caste hatred and want to divide this site on this basis. If your preoccupation is with caste start a separate thread instead of stealing every thread.

 

[ozone]

Or, is it your view that all persons who say caste is meaningless, must avoid Bs and marry into other castes only?

thats absolutely right. If you are a B and continue to be one, you continue to propogate casteism. If you claim you are out, one visible proof of the claim is to not marry a B.Doesnt matter whether you are a B or not. You should just not have loved him. period. If you do so, you are not putting the money where the mouth is. But if you do so, you get a set of warm well wishers such as:
QUOTE]Am glad i misunderstood your post. Your views are important to me[/QUOTE]

 

[Nara]

... To vehemently call for its eradication, destruction of brahminism (which, I feel is being used to refer to brahmin supremacist notions), etc., in a forum like this is tantamount to screaming from inside a room with closed doors.

Dear Shri Sangom sir, much of what we write in this forum can be characterized as screaming from inside a room with closed doors. At best a few hundred people may read what we write. I myself take it as an interesting time pass, nothing more serious. To look for solutions here like some people do is pointless in my view.

Having said that, if our writings can have any impact at all it is at the individual level. Even if one single reader gets motivated to think beyond the narrow view like "my jAti" that would mean some of our screaming has leaked out of the closed door.

Additionally, if we calmly consider the matter, where is brahmin supremacy in India to day?

Today Brahmins may not wield near total state power like they did in past in a mutually beneficial relationship with the ruler as the ones who bestow legitimacy over them. But they still do occupy various positions of state and economic power and not all of whom have transcended their caste attachment.

This is not to say we must pull them all down, but only that we must face the reality in an objective way and try to encourage eradication of caste feelings in our own individual life. Looking for grand solutions to reengineer society is beyond the scope of this web site, I think.

I have come to this conclusion because I feel that if we can be at peace with discriminatory practices in one country and try to whitewash it as long as possible and keep quiet, the same should be our attitude towards home country or motherland also.

I already expressed my thoughts on this point. I can only talk about myself, and I think I have never stayed quiet or tried to whitewash practices of my adopted country. I also feel my unbreakable connection to the land of my birth gives me the right to talk about issues affecting India.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

If you want to hijack this thread I can not stop you, but I still want to protest that my original post was not about caste. You have a tendency to interject caste in every one of your post. You are consumed by caste hatred and want to divide this site on this basis. If your preoccupation is with caste start a separate thread instead of stealing every thread.

Am calling a spade a spade. I did not equate racism to casteism first on this thread. No one really "owns" threads in public forums. If you don't like it, don't read it. Maybe your preoccupation is continuing propagation of discirmination in the name of dharma, so be it.

 

[kunjuppu]

Kum. amala,

One doubt I have on reading the above is, is your friend a B or NB? This is just for info. But I presume she is a B and is married to a B; what is wrong with it? Or, is it your view that all persons who say caste is meaningless, must avoid Bs and marry into other castes only?

I feel that despite our individual views about caste, casteism, etc., what is important is that we do not discriminate any person merely on the basis of caste. If it so happens that you take a liking to a person who is B, or is of your own caste by chance, it will by itself not prove that you are a casteist in your outlook.

sangom,

to reflect my own thoughts on this.

even though i consider myself fairly open in outlook, and did not have the experience of 'falling in love' with a girl when i was single, and was married per advice by my mom, without any jadhaga portutham, but just getting to know my wife's family..

i find it a big blessing to marry within the framework of famiilarity. right from food, values, practices, lifestyles - there is so much commonality, that right from the start, mrs K and moi, had no reason or need to verbalize stuff, that i find folks with relationships to folks of different cultures need to do.

as such, there is a big adjustment, in the process of getting to know one another and making a life togehter. for me, the common palghat ancestrage of my wife, definitely smoothened the way. in fact, i think, those who love and marry, are able to that is, within their common ancestrage, are doubly blessed.

i would also qualify, that love is something that 'happens', and knows no boundaries. i respect and admire love. which is why i say to love and love from one's own tribe, is double blessing. saves many challenges, and makes life easier.

 

[amala]

Kum. amala,

One doubt I have on reading the above is, is your friend a B or NB? This is just for info. But I presume she is a B and is married to a B; what is wrong with it? Or, is it your view that all persons who say caste is meaningless, must avoid Bs and marry into other castes only?

I feel that despite our individual views about caste, casteism, etc., what is important is that we do not discriminate any person merely on the basis of caste. If it so happens that you take a liking to a person who is B, or is of your own caste by chance, it will by itself not prove that you are a casteist in your outlook.

Truth be told i have no idea what caste this friend of mine really is. Its meaningless and not important to that person to the extent that person doesnt want to reveal it to me. I agree. There is nothing wrong with marrying another B is you're a B. There is nothing wrong with marrying a NB if youre a B too if thats what one wants.

 

[sangom]

Biswa you are so right, but then again I never lived in Tamil Nadu. Having left India in 70s I did not encounter the caste issue either. I never new the resentment for or against caste based division. Even now it seems that it is historic and now being used for votes in politics. I do not see any institutionalized use of caste based division in India in public. If people are practicing it in private, nothing can be done except education and social pressure to change.

In a similar fashion in US the overt racism is put down strongly in public forum like housing, jobs, and in reporting. There is this strong urge to be politically correct, so that people do not get upset. Private feelings and prejudice can not be legislated. In Alabama, Mississippi, Oklahoma, etc it is very different. Racism is tolerated much more than in big cities.
Reuters reported 11/30/11:
"Nine members of Gulnare Freewill Baptist Church backed their former pastor, with six opposed, in Sunday's vote to bar interracial couples from church membership and worship activities. Funerals were excluded."

Kentucky church votes to ban interracial couples - Yahoo! News

Shri prasad,

Can I take it that even in some of the churches, the racism is alive and kicking? If so, it will go to reveal that the racist feelings are as much sharp as caste prejudices are in some pockets of India. But there was some comment here that whereas caste system denies equality before God (i.e., entry into temples), while the christian church allowed freedom of worship, and so the caste system is a monstrous one and racism, comparatively minor aberration only. But this argument does not seem to hold good.

I am particularly intrigued by the comment :

The vote was taken after most of the 40 people who attended Sunday services had left the church in Pike County, near the border with West Virginia. Many members left to avoid the vote.

Most members of the church "didn't want anything to do with this," said longtime church official Dean Harville, whose daughter and her black fiance had drawn pastor Melvin Thompson's ire.


Should this be taken to mean that the 27 or so members favoured the ban or were against it? If US citizens are particular that they should be politically correct in public, should these people not have remained and voted against this ban? Hence I feel that racism is as much evident in US as caste prejudices in India. Is there scope for "whites bashing" in the context of US, on the lines of brahminism/brahmin-bashing with reference to India? Can we say the whiteskinned fellows should take the lead and compel the church to revoke the ban? I feel India is much better as it has allowed temple entry to all hindus without any great opposition from the priests.

 

[Nara]

From Huffington Post:

Some excerpts:

According to Harville's father, Dean Harville, Stella brought Chikuni to the church in June where they performed a song for the congregation. Following the visit, pastor Melvin Thompson told Harville that his daughter and her fiance could not sing at the church again. Thompson later proposed that the church go on record saying that while all people were welcome to attend public worship services there, the church did not condone interracial marriage. His proposal, which was accepted by a 9-6 vote last week....


"It's not the spirit of the community in any way, shape or form," said Randy Johnson, president of the Pike County Ministerial Association, according to Kentucky.com.


While Pike County and the surrounding community come to grips with the church's decision, researchers at Ohio State University and Cornell University say black-white marriages in the United States are soaring, increasing threefold, from 3 percent in 1980 to 10.7 percent in 2008.


In the U.S. there are probably hundreds of thousands of small unaffiliated churches. It is not wise to draw broad conclusions from isolated cases like this. While the presence of racism is undeniable, it is not tolerated by the majority the way casteism is in India.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

it is interesting to nore that the girl's father supported her and her zimbabwean fiancee.

 

[sangom]

In the U.S. there are probably hundreds of thousands of small unaffiliated churches. It is not wise to draw broad conclusions from isolated cases like this. While the presence of racism is undeniable, it is not tolerated by the majority the way casteism is in India.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

I agree that the incident could be an isolated one. But that just does not prove that the majority in the US do not "tolerate" racism. Even in that incident the majority seems to have silently supported the ban.

I don't understand how you assert that casteism is tolerated by the majority in India. Will you kindly elucidate?

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Is it a conclusion that casteism is not ok, but racism is ok. Discriminating power is the essential part of our intelligence. I tend to believe that casteism has affected more Brahmins than others. Telling the difference is not a crime; but talking against the difference is. The wound of casteism is on our person inflicted by others including the Bhajan parties, but instead of trying to heal the wound we are trying to deepen it; for what? To gain sympathy vote. The whole is made of divisions and if you remove the divisions the construction of the whole will collapse. The people who now talk of casteism and other divisions are only magnifying them to gain hypocritical glory. If you are not a casteist, that is enough; believe the world has changed. Why then this nightmares occur in day time?

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Nara,

I agree that the incident could be an isolated one. But that just does not prove that the majority in the US do not "tolerate" racism. Even in that incident the majority seems to have silently supported the ban.

I don't understand how you assert that casteism is tolerated by the majority in India. Will you kindly elucidate?

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/race/2009/06/why-customers-prefer-white-men.html
"A new study in an upcoming Academy of Management Journal takes on why white men continue to earn 25 percent more than equally well performing women and minorities.

It’s true that not everybody has a job that relies so heavily on customer service. But keep in mind that the service industry comprises 82 percent of the economy."

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: sqtdq, bgcolor: #EDF1F7, colspan: 2"]“The divide of race has been America's constant curse. Each new wave of immigrants gives new targets to old prejudices. Prejudice and contempt, cloaked in the pretense of religious or political conviction, are no different. They have nearly destroyed us in the past. They plague us still. They fuel the fanaticism of terror. They torment the lives of millions in fractured nations around the world. These obsessions cripple both those who are hated and, of course, those who hate, robbing both of what they might become.”[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]

Bill Clinton quotes (American 42nd US President (1993-2001)

Bill Clinton quotes


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-freed-wessler/stop-the-next-american-ni_b_204911.html

"Racial disparities in income leave communities of color making about 60 cents for every dollar earned by whites,” said Seth Wessler, the report's author and lead investigator. “This huge difference is a direct result of institutional policies and practices that collectively block people of color from opportunity."

"South Carolina GOP activist Rusty DePass has apologized for the Facebook remark that likened first lady Michelle Obama’s ancestors to an escaped Riverbanks Zoo gorilla. Also this week, an employee with Lexington GOP consulting firm Starboard Communications apologized for an online joke about President Barack Obama taxing aspirin “because it’s white and it works.”

I do not condone an birth based discrimination, be it overt or subtle. I do not want to compare USA with INdia. I just want to point out that discrimination is far more prevalent than accepted or admitted.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[prasad1]

Am calling a spade a spade. I did not equate racism to casteism first on this thread. No one really "owns" threads in public forums. If you don't like it, don't read it. Maybe your preoccupation is continuing propagation of discirmination in the name of dharma, so be it.

It is very difficult to educate a person who refuses to read. Show me one instance where I supported discrimination in the name of Dharma. There are sane people who what to have intelligent discussion about a given topic, you have nothing to add to the discussion so interject your own 'caste preoccupation'. Yes I too want to call a spade a spade.

 

[kunjuppu]

i dont know what to make of this .. is it faith? true faith? or something else?

anga pradhashnam over ecchchil elai?

... and the consequences

 

[Nara]

....I agree that the incident could be an isolated one. But that just does not prove that the majority in the US do not "tolerate" racism. Even in that incident the majority seems to have silently supported the ban.

Dear Shri Sangom sir, I have already given my view on the matter of race and caste here and here. In this case of supremacist pastor banning interracial marriage, all I am suggesting is not to derive broad conclusions based on isolated incidences.

I don't understand how you assert that casteism is tolerated by the majority in India. Will you kindly elucidate?

I am intrigued you are asking me to elucidate what must be as obvious as the back of one's hand. Is not caste one of the most prominent aspects of social life in India? Many electrons have been been expended on this very topic that I beg your pardon and excuse myself from having to repeat some of them.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

i dont know what to make of this .. is it faith? true faith? or something else?

K, it is a shame, a collective shame, that is what it is. In this day and age rolling over plantain leaves containing leftovers of food consumed by Brahmins is believed to cure skin diseases. Religious superstitions mixed with jAti/varna system, a revolting cocktail.

Thank you ....

 

[happyhindu]

Truth be told i have no idea what caste this friend of mine really is. Its meaningless and not important to that person to the extent that person doesnt want to reveal it to me. I agree. There is nothing wrong with marrying another B is you're a B. There is nothing wrong with marrying a NB if youre a B too if thats what one wants.

Amala, am confused. In Post # 56 you said your friend conveniently fell in love with a 'brahmin'. In this post you say you don't know the caste of your friend. I sense a disconnect between these two things, or have i understood wrongly? I mean how do you know the castes of your friend and his spouse if your friend does not talk about it.

 

[happyhindu]

But there was some comment here that whereas caste system denies equality before God (i.e., entry into temples), while the christian church allowed freedom of worship, and so the caste system is a monstrous one and racism, comparatively minor aberration only. But this argument does not seem to hold good.

Sangom Sir, since i am the one who mentioned equality before God, and caste as a monstrous thing (in this thread), perhaps your point refers to me (though am not sure). In case it did, here are some of my inputs.

Equality before God does not stop with temple-entry, that's a basic minimum. Forcing people into a slot, or allowing only specified ritualism to them by force, is part of religious inequality.

Also sir, i have never said or implied that racism is a 'minor aberration'. To me, racism being an open enemy is a fightable social evil, but casteism being linked with 'spiritual' canard of gunas and purvajanma karma, is a very tricky, difficult sort of social evil to fight against.

Racism prohibits people based on skin color. It does so directly and openly. Casteism affects a man's psyche by working into his innate spiritual nature, and eats him up from inside, with all the canard (ie., misuse) of gunas and purvajanma karma.

Both racism and casteism are social evils. I sense portrayal as though some people find racism ok/tolerable but casteism not-ok/intolerable. Please be assured that anyone would find racism and casteism both intolerable.

To Indians, casteism is the issue. But who knows perhaps casteism stems from some ancient racism, so equating both as same maybe correct afterall. Anyways, i do accept racism and casteism as one and the same.

If dharmashastras laws were created to favor one set of people, surely the same set should not have a problem with laws created to disfavor them. This is irrespective of whatever the white man does with his religion and his church.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Kunjuppu Sir,

Very nice post # 64. Have always felt marriage is about comfort zone. I used to be confused why people speak of marriages when they speak of social structures or social integration.

Some time back i met a person named AN, immersed in social sciences. Was curious why people of same caste face various forms of incompatibility. Topic went to culture and cultural incompatibility. AN brought out many interesting perspectives.

Turns out that when people became part of a 'caste', they adopted or give up customs. However this process of acculturation, and culture acquisition, was not uniformly spread across all parts of a given region. It varied even across villages within a small geographical region.

Pls note 'caste' and 'tribe' are two different things; and 'class' (varna) is yet very different, though all are linked.

According to AN, this culture acquisition did not stop even after a person (or set of people) became part of a 'caste'. Within a 'caste' framework, people continued to acquire or give up practices, in order to differentiate themselves (as much as possible) from the rest.

Hence over time, there came to be a massive emphasis on social practices, all of which infact stem from rituals (or are centred around exclusive ritualism).

Lets think of ancient days when man had nothing better to do, they had no bmw cars, high end consumer brands to create a social impression. Instead, social impressions and social statements depended on their practices. Thus came the context of highs and lows. Practices defined social highs and lows.

According to AN, marriage within a caste is actually a social indicator of a nation's adherence for casteism. AN says this is why marriages are spoken of in tandem with the issue of casteism.

AN also says with increased urbanisation, the whole context of acquiring and giving up customs changed (and continues to change rapidly). Individual comfort zone is transformed due to availability of a variety of food (restaurants), entertainment venues and movies, increased social interaction, etc. All of which tends to be common and shared in those who live in the same city/town.

Hence people of the same geographical area, instead of caste, tend to be accultured to the same things, and have a lot more in common. But this acquires a different shade in those who live(d) in various geographical regions, or interacted with people from different geographical regions over time. Such people tend to be an eclectic mix of various regions. According to AN, the context of caste infact does not apply to such people.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

i dont know what to make of this .. is it faith? true faith? or something else?

anga pradhashnam over ecchchil elai?

... and the consequences

Saw the second link, i suppose pitting an NB against another NB, has been going on since long (niyogis for example did not pollute the fire and dirty their own hands, they sent 'dalits' to the houses of komatis to do the violence job, against komati upanayanams).

I beleive there are foolish people who do things, either for money, or because they are brainwashed...they end up beleiving there is some great spiritual merit to be got for themselves by heeding to a brahmin's words or by rolling on brahmin's leftover meals.

Which is why i say racism is an openly fightable evil, but casteism works its way through religious practices.

 

[Brahin]

i dont know what to make of this .. is it faith? true faith? or something else?

anga pradhashnam over ecchchil elai?

... and the consequences

It is a belief I guess. Just read the article, no one was forced to do it at gun point isnt it?
If we don't believe in it just don't do it.

Note: the article clearly mentions every caste takes part in it.