Discrimination - can it be stopped?

[happyhindu]

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Superstitions can be legislated. If people want to practice some hideous act, others can try to educate them, but can not stop it, unless it is illegal. The average poor person drinks all their money and gets into domestic violence more often than that. I do not see the outrage in this site about the domestic violence. I suppose it is a private matter for these people.

<removed>

I think sometimes people have very little sense, to confuse Brahmin with Brahman takes the cake. sometimes half knowledge is worse than no knowledge. According to philosophy Brahman is the sole cause of every thing not Brahmin. Cha-Cha-Cha, what ignorance.

LOL, Commonsense is very uncommon.

Wikipedia definition:
In Hinduism, Brahman (bráhman) is the one supreme, universal Spirit that is the origin and support of the phenomenal universe.[1] Brahman is sometimes referred to as the Absolute or Godhead[2] which is the Divine Ground[3] of all being. Brahman is conceived as personal ("with qualities"), impersonal ("without qualities") and/or supreme depending on the philosophical school.

Brahmin is a name used to designate a member of one of the four varnas in the traditional Hindu society.

Brahmin is an anglicized form of brahman. The term brahman refers to a brahmin individual. A northie wud never say "mein brahmin hoon". He would say "mein brahman hoon". It is the southies who use the term brahmin more.

Ofcourse the term brahman also has other meanings.

 

[sangom]

Lets wait for the fact finding committe to do its job and further newspaper reports. Why claim anything until then.

Amen!

Request you to elaborate more on this. Are you saying i must wait for a conclusion on the made-snana ritual before putting blame on brahmins "for each and every shortcoming" in the society? Unfortunately sir, i don't see any connection between the made-snana ritual and the extensive work you suggest.

Sir, you have a great vocabulary and can conjure up various types of words. However, instead of a broad-based advice/suggestion, i would be glad if you can point out which part of my posts are misplaced or mistaken. If i know i have got something wrong, then i can readily correct myself.

Smt. HappyHindu,

Vocabulary-wise as well as knowledge-wise, especially on various aspects of the caste system, you stand much much above me. So, any ordinarily intelligent reader of this forum even will not agree to your observation "you have a great vocabulary and can conjure up various types of words". miso- means hatred towards, dislike towards and I just put brahmany, that's all.

I think you will agree that I hold opinions very similar, or even identical to, yours in regard to the pernicious aspects of the caste system of India, the role of brahmins in this entire episode and the need for brahmins to look at reservations as a sort of atonement for the historical wrongdoing, etc. Our divergence is recent, it started with my equating the racism in US on the same footing as casteism in India and my objection to efforts at playing down one by all possible devices and arguments while continuing to attack the casteism in India as if it is the worst social evil in the entire planet. After all, as you rightly observed, not all "may want to assuage their guilt by drawing equivalence, and comparing with practices elsewhere, possibly hoping that may mitigate the wrongdoings of their kind." Only some may think that a crime is a crime, anywhere, as long as the government does not allow that as legal.

You differed on this and claimed that you are not bothered about discriminatory practices in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Iceland, etc., and are concerned only with your motherland, viz., India. I held that if so, the best course for those who cannot wait to see the evil of casteism eradicated, would be to take up the cases with the appropriate authorities, instead of letting out tirades against brahmins here again, and again, without any rhyme or reason.

That is where matters stand as of now. To your remark, "i would be glad if you can point out which part of my posts are misplaced or mistaken.", I will say there may be no mistake or misplacement but repetition - of the same anti-brahmin sentiments which, even for a person like me, who squarely blames brahmins for all the ills of the hindu society due to its caste system, becomes somewhat jarring. It is like a mil finding fault with her dil for each and everything. To put it in other words, assigning blame is one thing but making a bête noire of it is something different. And when brahmins become the constant target of accusations repeatedly, in a forum in which many members are brahmins, it is not likely to be seen as a sign of erudition but only of a certain predisposition. The undernoted comment from one member may give you some idea:

"I find some members take every opportunity to attack/criticize only Brahmins.It is high time they take a non-partisan view and see things objectively without bringing caste prejudices."

 

[suraju06]

That is where matters stand as of now. To your remark, "i would be glad if you can point out which part of my posts are misplaced or mistaken.", I will say there may be no mistake or misplacement but repetition - of the same anti-brahmin sentiments which, even for a person like me, who squarely blames brahmins for all the ills of the hindu society due to its caste system, becomes somewhat jarring. It is like a mil finding fault with her dil for each and everything. To put it in other words, assigning blame is one thing but making a bête noire of it is something different. And when brahmins become the constant target of accusations repeatedly, in a forum in which many members are brahmins, it is not likely to be seen as a sign of erudition but only of a certain predisposition. The undernoted comment from one member may give you some idea:

"I find some members take every opportunity to attack/criticize only Brahmins.It is high time they take a non-partisan view and see things objectively without bringing caste prejudices."

A timely sage advice. I appreciate the maturity.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear sangom,

Re your post #89

To me: as a tambram, this is so embarrassing. No matter what, even those of us, who object to such practises, get painted ‘brahmin’, and by default are believed to be encouraging such uncouth actions.

I am with the dalit demonstrator there, who is disrupting this stuff, because, some idiot dalit would rather believe the Brahmin and roll over the echchil elai. The culprits are the Brahmins who eat and leave their echchil behind. If none of them agree to it, then there wont be an issue. But I guess money works is dubious ways, here too.

How can we get folks to show dignity and respect for our religion, when we have nincompoops rolling over echchil elais, and this is broadcast all over the world. Not much different than that temple for the rats in rajasthan, when the same rats, feed on grains meant for humans and cause untold damages.

How much more stupid can we get?

 

[happyhindu]

Vocabulary-wise as well as knowledge-wise, especially on various aspects of the caste system, you stand much much above me. So, any ordinarily intelligent reader of this forum even will not agree to your observation "you have a great vocabulary and can conjure up various types of words". miso- means hatred towards, dislike towards and I just put brahmany, that's all.

I think you will agree that I hold opinions very similar, or even identical to, yours in regard to the pernicious aspects of the caste system of India, the role of brahmins in this entire episode and the need for brahmins to look at reservations as a sort of atonement for the historical wrongdoing, etc. Our divergence is recent, it started with my equating the racism in US on the same footing as casteism in India and my objection to efforts at playing down one by all possible devices and arguments while continuing to attack the casteism in India as if it is the worst social evil in the entire planet. After all, as you rightly observed, not all "may want to assuage their guilt by drawing equivalence, and comparing with practices elsewhere, possibly hoping that may mitigate the wrongdoings of their kind." Only some may think that a crime is a crime, anywhere, as long as the government does not allow that as legal.

You differed on this and claimed that you are not bothered about discriminatory practices in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Iceland, etc., and are concerned only with your motherland, viz., India. I held that if so, the best course for those who cannot wait to see the evil of casteism eradicated, would be to take up the cases with the appropriate authorities, instead of letting out tirades against brahmins here again, and again, without any rhyme or reason.

That is where matters stand as of now. To your remark, "i would be glad if you can point out which part of my posts are misplaced or mistaken.", I will say there may be no mistake or misplacement but repetition - of the same anti-brahmin sentiments which, even for a person like me, who squarely blames brahmins for all the ills of the hindu society due to its caste system, becomes somewhat jarring. It is like a mil finding fault with her dil for each and everything. To put it in other words, assigning blame is one thing but making a bête noire of it is something different. And when brahmins become the constant target of accusations repeatedly, in a forum in which many members are brahmins, it is not likely to be seen as a sign of erudition but only of a certain predisposition. The undernoted comment from one member may give you some idea:

"I find some members take every opportunity to attack/criticize only Brahmins.It is high time they take a non-partisan view and see things objectively without bringing caste prejudices."

Reg point in bold and underlined, we are indians, hindus. We are bothered about india and our own religion. So ofcourse those of us who find casteism evil will mention so. What connection do i have with the whiteman and his churches, to be talking about it.

Sangom sir, please do not mind my saying so, but i find you have a change of heart. You basically want the caste-system to remain, and so you are doing a bit of an obfuscation job. Sir you are far more well-read than me, so i was very taken aback to see you claiming (or going to the extent of saying) only peshwas and sungas were brahmins (to convey powerlessness of brahmins).

Reg point underlined (without bold) and the para following it::

Sir, if there is continued justification for oppression (veiled as caste- 'discrimination'), then why should not anyone not speak up ? Do you expect me to accept things which sarang, suraju, claim?

I suppose you do not want me, nara, to make counter posts to certain people, because you want readers to get only one side of the story. Maybe you want everyone to think discrimination is normal practice, hence casteism is normal practice. Racism continues to happen, so casteism can continue to happen. Anything to protect casteism i suppose.

Sir, i sincerely suggest we agree to disagree with our views in these issues. Thankyou.

 

[kunjuppu]

Sangom,

Re your post #90

I live in Canada. please let me know where you found me in the context

all possible efforts are being put by members like Nara, Kunjuppu, etc., seem to explain away even the instances which are being presented by you, as isolated cases and not reflecting the majority US population's attitudes

sangom, I can only speak of my own experiences. i do not understand, why you should bandy me with Nara or anyone. if you have a gripe with me, say so please, and we can discuss it.

Also you have noted

social intermingling at the household level will be restricted unless they (the white people) find that you have changed over to their customs, manners, belief systems (not religion) and all that..

I have posted a few days ago, about the practise in our home re non inviting my relatives who have married outside our community, to tambram gatherings at our home, because our community just ignores these folks and they end up watching TV alone.

Socializing is a personal thing. Both me and mrs K, are very comfortable socializing with whites, and we have many many white friends, who come to our home and vice versa. Admittedly we are among the few, for most tambrams, do not even have north Indian friends.

Our white friends, I wish to say, we could confide and talk more openly, just because, they don’t gossip and usually we get honest feedbacks. The flip side, is that due to common background, there is something ‘special’ with a couple of our tambram friends, a closeness I don’t think we can expect of the whites.

i have always said, it is prejudice that defines us. Every human is prejudiced. It is whether this prejudice impacts you and how much it impacts you, is the question.

I am fairly acclimatized to Canada, am aware of its prejudice as a society at large. But then, yesterday I presented you, a snapshot of a country, which until 1967 was white 99%, and today the city of Toronto has more than 50% non white people. The pattern of immigration is such that 90% of the immigrants are non white, and at some point will be majority in the country. The society per se is indifferent to mixed racial marriages, though there will be exceptions who do not like it. The issue, I think, is how much loud and pervasive is this exception.

If you need to know this exception, you need only to look at the newspapers. exceptions do happen, but we should ask ourselves, is the racism so pervading, that it hinders our day to day lives. your own son, i am quite sure, is very successful, inspite of the 'racism', and i will leave it to him to tell you, if the usa has been fair, and gave him a chance to succeed, irrespective of his background.

We talked about change of attitudes. Since world war 2, the west as a society, has moved away from the old style imperialism and the citizens, to various extents have gone alone with it. More so, in the new societies of usa or Australia, than in Europe.

But then there are also extraordinary behaviours that cause reactions. During the dotcom period, it was not uncommon for Indians to switch jobs just at the promise of a few thousand increases, without giving any thought to commitment and responsibility of what happens when someone leaves a project mid way. They went on a spree buying up BMWs, which they abandoned at the airports when the bubble bursts.

needless to say, this was observed by the media and the white society at large, who came to distrust these 'carpet baggers' who they considered unrealiable, and who eventually nobody would hire. to these desi guys, the usa is fraught with racism. and they would never agree that brought it on themselves.. and also hurt the reputation of hard working indians for a very long time.

Strange things happen. On all sides. Everywhere. It does not translate into prejudice or racism.

Folks like me, who have spent most of my lifetime here in Canada, I think, am able to balance the overall value of the society here. I find it tolerant and liberating. It is a personal thing. Irrespective of whether there is a racial fight somewhere or an Indian getting frisked at the airport or a muslim denied visa for the usa.

hope this explains my surprise, at being categorized as an apologist for usa racism or effort to drive it under the carpet

 

[sangom]

Dear sangom,

Re your post #89

To me: as a tambram, this is so embarrassing. No matter what, even those of us, who object to such practises, get painted ‘brahmin’, and by default are believed to be encouraging such uncouth actions.

I am with the dalit demonstrator there, who is disrupting this stuff, because, some idiot dalit would rather believe the Brahmin and roll over the echchil elai. The culprits are the Brahmins who eat and leave their echchil behind. If none of them agree to it, then there wont be an issue. But I guess money works is dubious ways, here too.

How can we get folks to show dignity and respect for our religion, when we have nincompoops rolling over echchil elais, and this is broadcast all over the world. Not much different than that temple for the rats in rajasthan, when the same rats, feed on grains meant for humans and cause untold damages.

How much more stupid can we get?

Dear K,

I have recorded my dissent and criticism in one of the web-pages reporting this news (D A I J I W O R L D). Beyond this perhaps, we can make a mass petition to the CM of Karnataka and have it signed and sent from tbf if Shri Praveen is agreeable.

As I said in post#89, some tabras themselves are loonies enough to do this. How do we prevent this? First, like Raja Rammohun Roy, we should find out the scriptural authority based on which these people do this. If possible we should disprove that; otherwise appeal to GOI, state govts., HR&CE dept., etc., to look into this highly objectionable ritual and insist on a ban and attachment of all assets of institutions allowing such practice. May be these are what we can do.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

personally i am always dismayed and discouraged when i see mass idiocies like this.

i used to see the same type of abject behaviour in front of the kanchi mutt when folks like my dad, otherwise decent and sane, suddenly fallilng over themselves, in competition with one another, to attract the man's attention and to seek 'blessings'.

the sad fact is, that their families, who have no clue as to what is happening int he minds of thesse guys, just have to grin and bear it.

which is what i am doing now, when i see the pix of thesed guys rolling over brahmin echchil. and ensuring that my children do not see it.

i wonder even if our traditionally inclined friends here like suraju, sarang or such, can defend such actions?

 

[sangom]

Reg point in bold and underlined, we are indians, hindus. We are bothered about india and our own religion. So ofcourse those of us who find casteism evil will mention so. What connection do i have with the whiteman and his churches, to be talking about it.

Happy,

You are free to think so, as much as I am free to hold that we should view racism as much evil as caste system is evil.

Sangom sir, please do not mind my saying so, but i find you have a change of heart. You basically want the caste-system to remain, and so you are doing a bit of an obfuscation job. Sir you are far more well-read than me, so i was very taken aback to see you claiming (or going to the extent of saying) only peshwas and sungas were brahmins (to convey powerlessness of brahmins).

I have tried my best to convey my position. I feel it is our duty in this web forum which has international readership possible (though this may not actually be happening, however), to record our criticism of racism as we do about casteism. You and perhaps nara, kunjuppu have a different view on this. But that does not mean that I have a "change of heart". The problem with you, it seems to me, is that you tend to jump to quick conclusions and once you conclude, it is difficult to change it. For example you have now concluded that I had a "change of heart", I want the caste system to remain, I am doing obfuscation. These are all unwarranted conclusions and arise because you have not seen difference of opinion and how we can get along even if we hold differing/contrarian views on certain items.

To the best of my knowledge sungas and peshwas were the only "brahmin" dynasties; if you have better info I am always ready to learn from you.

Reg point underlined (without bold) and the para following it::

Sir, if there is continued justification for oppression (veiled as caste- 'discrimination'), then why should not anyone not speak up ? Do you expect me to accept things which sarang, suraju, claim?

I don't. But I also don't think you are addressing your posts to the point in many instances. Very often, you have the knack of bringing in caste upgradation, and how brahmins alone were responsible for this, etc. I also note a tendency of bringing in the history of different Telugu castes/sub-castes and branch off into the usual tirade against brahmins, again for accepting the higher status of this caste or pulling down that caste, etc. I feel there are very few people who will be interested in such historical minutiae of castes today, including the younger generation people from those very castes. So, in a sense you are rekindling age old caste feelings due to your obsessive pre-occupation with the caste problem, imho.

May be what your grandmother said should be our guidance - don't dig out the past too much; even if you do, keep it at the academic level and don't bring it to general forums like this, and lastly, don't jump to conclusions in haste.

LBNL (last but not least), you are free to hold on to your impressions about me (that I had a "change of heart", I want the caste system to remain, I am doing obfuscation, etc.). But I will be what I am. If you continue to scan through the pages here, and if I have the longevity, you may realize what I mean.

I suppose you do not want me, nara, to make counter posts to certain people, because you want readers to get only one side of the story. Maybe you want everyone to think discrimination is normal practice, hence casteism is normal practice. Racism continues to happen, so casteism can continue to happen. Anything to protect casteism i suppose.

My stand is —

Racism continues to happen, so let us criticize that also as we criticize casteism.

Sir, i sincerely suggest we agree to disagree with our views in these issues. Thankyou.

I agree.

 

[kunjuppu]

sad to say, we bring our caste prejudices outside of india, wherever we go.

in england, dalits have been successful in geting to brand 'casteism' as equivalent to 'racism'. the idea is to get international recognition of an indian blight, in terms, universal human hood can understand.

'racism' is a terminology that is condermned everywhere. we indians, once we go to the west, are the first to 'sniff' out racism and shout it out loud from the rooftops.

surprisingly the indian government has fought tooth and nail, against branding casteism as equivalent to institutionalized racism. i could not understand that ??

casteism is racism says UK

 

[prasad1]

Dear sangom,

Re your post #89

To me: as a tambram, this is so embarrassing. No matter what, even those of us, who object to such practises, get painted ‘brahmin’, and by default are believed to be encouraging such uncouth actions.

I am with the dalit demonstrator there, who is disrupting this stuff, because, some idiot dalit would rather believe the Brahmin and roll over the echchil elai. The culprits are the Brahmins who eat and leave their echchil behind. If none of them agree to it, then there wont be an issue. But I guess money works is dubious ways, here too.

How can we get folks to show dignity and respect for our religion, when we have nincompoops rolling over echchil elais, and this is broadcast all over the world. Not much different than that temple for the rats in rajasthan, when the same rats, feed on grains meant for humans and cause untold damages.

How much more stupid can we get?

K, I like your post.

Who orchestrated it? Who follows it? Why did they follow it? Who forced them to do it? I suppose the Brahmin ruling class did it. The poor people were forced by the Brahmin gonda gang to do such heinous deeds. The tv channels are of course Brahmin owned. and finally the majority of people watching were Brahmins. What a story. I am surprised that gullible people buy this premise, and others just want to skewer Brahmins in every post.

Last time I looked all the ruling class in Tamil Nadu and Center I could not find the Brahmin domination. I suppose MK, JL, Stalin, Manmohan Sigh, and other lawmakers are all Brahmin. and quota system should have leveled the playing field. Dream on.:lalala:

 

[kunjuppu]

prasad,

i really dont know who is orchestrating this.

if i were a missionary, i would initiate this, for what better way to put hinduism in a ridiculous and absurd light.

i am bothered other castes are participating. if it is only a brahmin thing for brahmins by brahmins, atleast it will be within the caste.

i don't know!!

 

[Nara]

.....My only objection as far as this forum is concerned is that a realistic picture is not being given to the readers and all possible efforts are being put by members like Nara, Kunjuppu, etc., seem to explain away even the instances which are being presented by you, as isolated cases and not reflecting the majority US population's attitudes. This in our native language is what is called முழுப்பூசணிக்காயெ சோத்தாலெ மறைக்கப்பார்க்கறது

Dear Shri Sangom sir, I have never denied that latent racism is still prevalent among the white population of U.S. So, I reject your முழுப்பூசணிக்காய் comment. If anything, this comment is appropriate for those who are unable to shed their caste identity and yet feel completely absolved of any responsibility for the all pervasive casteism wherever you go in India.

It is indeed as evident as the back of one's palm if only one cares to look. The video Happy posted is one example. While it is changing among the youth, no thanks to the older people, jAti is part of one's very identity in India, and how can we say it does not play a part in daily life. If one belongs to the higher caste, yes, one may not smell the stench of casteism, but ask a Dalit in a village where most Indians live about his day-to-day life. Ignoring this reality and claiming casteism does not affect people in their day-to-day life is indeed முழுப்பூசணிக்காயை சோத்துல மறைக்கப்பார்க்கறது.

Let me be clear, lest I am misunderstood or misquoted, racism is bad and must be confronted and challenged. Casteism is bad and must be confronted and challenged. We can do both at the same time, no need to choose only one.

I know and have said so often enough that Brahmins are not the only ones responsible for casteism. This is an Indian web site named TamilBrahmins. So it is immensely appropriate to talk about Indian casteism and the role of Brahmins in perpetuating. If you direct me to a site dedicated for Jats or Devars, or whoever, and if they will take me for a member, I will definitely speak out with as much force as I can muster against the atrocities the upper and middle castes commit. But I will not lay off speaking out against Brahminism and the Brahminists both B and NB who try to offer justifications and excuses. In parallel, I will also highlight incidences of racism in the U.S. if that is what you want to have balance. I will start a thread exclusively for it.

BTW, were you not the one who quoted SV, "There is an old superstition in Bengal that if the cobra that bites, sucks out his own poison from the patient, the man must survive. Well then, the Brahmin must suck out his own poison." to make the point that Brahmins must take their share of the responsibility seriously? Now, with your newly coined word, would you hold SV guilty of misobrahmany?

Coming to U.S. racism, I think it is similar and different from casteism in many ways. Slavery was a brutal, savage institution, and in this respect it is similar to casteism. However, there was also a strong abolitionist movement to end slavery and these white opponents of slavery did not mind even going to the gallows (John Brown) in their opposition, and in this respect it is different.

Even while slavery was practiced in the southern states, the blacks in the northern states enjoyed some degree of liberty and freedom to get educated and freely express opposing views. There were many imminent black leaders, particularly Frederick Douglas, who were able to fearlessly criticize the existing order. In India too we have had great leaders criticizing the existing order, like Ayothi Thas, and this is a similarity. But how many people know such persons existed? I did not learn of Ayothi Thas in school, I came to know of him only after I got interested in these issues. In contrast history of great Black leader of the past like Douglas, Harriet Tubman, and others is part of the required curriculum in all schools in the U.S.

After the civil war the U.S. government and other state governments established many universities for Black Americans to get advanced degrees, where as in India the Dalits were prevented from getting even school education. It was still segregated by race in U.S. (not any more), which is awful, but at least they were able to get highly educated and demand more justice. Contrast this with the video Happy posted that shows a case of a young girl forced to drop out of school out of fear. This is not atypical, or one off.

Let me cite one more poignant example that illustrates in what ways racism and casteism are both similar in some ways and different in others. This is about a brilliant Chemist Percy Lavon Julian, who happened to be black. Through sheer strength of character and perseverance he became one of the most preeminent and influential Chemists of his time. Many things we enjoy today can be traced to his work. Chicago Sun-Times, a white owned newspaper, named him Chicagoan of the Year in 1950. There are many such prominent blacks in every field of human endeavor. Can we name one Dalit who was ever accepted and recognized in this manner by the majority non-Dalits?

Yet, Dr. Julian suffered racism all his life. Harvard was racially segregated at that time and therefore he had to go to Europe to earn his Ph.D. In Chicago, a year after he was recognized as the Chicagoan of the year, when he moved into an affluent White neighborhood he received death threats, his house was fire bombed. This is a similarity with casteism no doubt. But the story does not end there.H is White neighbors were so outraged by the firebombing, they took out a march in support of Julian and his family. This is a difference. In India, even today people want agraharam and brahmin neighborhoods, Brahmin only flat system.

Today, in the U.S., racism, in the most part, is not a clear cut phenomenon like this pastor forbidding inter-racial marriage. Among the general public racism is more like an attitude towards poor racial minorities, harboring low opinions like they are lazy, they take advantage of the welfare system, they have criminal tendency, etc. Usually, if they come to know of a Black person well, then racism recedes and even goes away.

Anyway, it is my considered opinion that racism among the general public as it exists today in the U.S. is much more subtle and nuanced, and in this respect it is nothing like the casteism we see in India. The need in this forum is not criticism of racism, which will only be used by the Brahminists in this forum to justify their own casteism. The need in this forum is relentless criticism of Brahminism/casteism.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

dear sangom,

personally i am always dismayed and discouraged when i see mass idiocies like this.

i used to see the same type of abject behaviour in front of the kanchi mutt when folks like my dad, otherwise decent and sane, suddenly fallilng over themselves, in competition with one another, to attract the man's attention and to seek 'blessings'.

the sad fact is, that their families, who have no clue as to what is happening int he minds of thesse guys, just have to grin and bear it.

which is what i am doing now, when i see the pix of thesed guys rolling over brahmin echchil. and ensuring that my children do not see it.

i wonder even if our traditionally inclined friends here like suraju, sarang or such, can defend such actions?

K,

This is one of the bad effects of the bhakti cult of hinduism, imo, which was instrumental in the vedic system of belief getting supplanted by the so-called vedanta and the proliferation of deities, image worship and so on.

The basis of the kukke subrahmanya temple ritual is not clear but it has something to do with champa shashti (indian festivals,festival of india,indian festivals calendar,list of indian festivals,pictures of indian festivals,indian religious festivals,indian festivals dates,festivals indian) I think the subrahmanya association has been taken for granted. But as I said in an earlier post the echchal elai uruLal has its origins from the golden mongoose story of Mahabharata.

The pretension seems to me to be that the annadaanams in these places are performed with such high dharmic excellence that if that old mongoose were to come here its remaining half body will also become golden-furred! And when some of the bhagavatas do roll, they become parama bhagavatas because they have proved themselves to be "aDiyaarkkum aDiyEn"!

But no rational person will buy any of these bunkum today, but we cannot judge individual mindset. For example the tabra I referred to has earned a nickname "eau de cologne" **** because his talk will be so pleasing like the perfume but will evaporate leaving no trace by way of performance!

 

[sarang]

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: PageTitle"]See the deccan herald report. The rolling devotees are educated middle class and do this to fulfil vows, not for skin treatment. And there is no reference to brahmins.
To fulfil vows, they rolled over on plantain leaves containing scraps of food

Devotees do 'Made Snana' at Kukke[/TD]
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[TD]Subrahmanya (DK dist), December 10, DHNS:[/TD]
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[TD="class: SummaryStyle, colspan: 2"]The controversial 'Urulu Seve' or the 'Made Snana' was observed by the devotees, amid protests at the Kukke Subrahmanya temple here on Friday.[/TD]
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Taking part in the much-criticised ritual at the temple were members of the educated middle class including retired judges, doctors, engineers who had arrived from different corners of the State.

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[TD="class: overviewfont, colspan: 2"]“Inhuman”

Members of the Karnataka State Backward Classes Awareness Forum and Dalit-Backward-Minorities Co-ordination Forum gathered in front of the temple to protest against the practice which they described as “inhuman”.

K Shivaram of the Backward Classes Forum said it was “unfortunate” that the ritual was being observed in a temple which was administered by the Muzrai Department.

He urged the government to take take immediate measures to stop the “unhealthy” ritual. Such blind beliefs will endanger the devotees’ health, he stressed. The protesters met temple Executive Officer Ningaiah and presented him with a memorandum. The protest received lukewarm response from the public. Some of the devotees expressed their ire over the protest.

Devotees do ‘Made Snana’ at Kukke[/TD]
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[prasad1]

Subrahmanya is a southern deity, not well known in the north. Further my understanding is that is very Dravidian. He is worshiped by all shiva caste.
(When we were approving the installation of Murugan in our temple we had to explain to the surprised by members from nort India that Murugan is not Murga (chicken)LOL).
Is stupidity mandated by religion? Can the government outlaw stupidity? In a democracy (India is better participation than US) no one can force social customs. If anyone is dissatisfied with a given religious custom, they are free to change it, not accept it. If all else fails they can change the religion. People stay in a religion if they think they are getting some benefit out of it.
In the same vain if an individual or a private group practice an abhorrent custom, but within the law, government has no business meddling with the practice.

Snakebite proves fatal to minister

JONESVILLE, VA - A preacher who refused medical treatment after a rattlesnake bit him during the serpent-handling part of an Easter service has died, authorities said. The Rev. Dwayne Long, 45, of Rose Hill was holding a rattlesnake when it bit him on the back of a finger, Lee County Sheriff Gary Parsons said. Parsons said the congregation prayed for Long, but no one sought medical treatment. Long died Monday at his home. "We don't anticipate any charges at this time," Parsons said. "That's their belief." Long was pastor of a Pentecostal church where members interpret serpent-handling as a form of obedience to God.Snake-handlers believe that when people die of a snakebite they receive during a church service, it was simply their time to go. Long leaves a wife, five children and two grandchildren.Copyright April 15, 2004 Kingsport Publishing Corporation.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/ep/snake_bite.htm

Ignorance of some can benefit some smart people. So the smart take advantage of the situation. This is the way it is going to be, it does not matter how loud is your shout. If you do not accept the reality and keep shouting, probably it should be in a padded room.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Nara,

This is with reference to your detailed and well-balanced post #121.

I understand that there are similarities as well as differences between casteism and racism. But my contention is that we are looking at the same kind of evil sprouting, growing, blooming and bearing fruits in two different soils, in two different time spans. Hence it will be futile to seek one-to-one correspondence or perfect identicality, if I may say so. What has been described in your post give some of the 'brighter' aspects of racism; but aspects like redlining, reverse redlining and many other less palatable aspects have been conveniently sidelined and I feel this is where the முழுப்பூசணிக்காய் is being hidden.

I also cannot understand your statement that casteism is as evident as the back of one's palm if only one cares to look for it; by the same token will it not be true to say that racism in US is as evident as the back of one's palm if only one cares to look for it? If not, kindly give your reasons for your different stand. I believe both the evils are there in the respective countries if only anyone cares to look for it. For example if you ask the thousands of foreign tourists visiting different parts of India, how many will know about casteism, except in very general terms, at best?

I therefore cannot accept the line that racism had been or is, a much more benign affliction (tumour) while casteism on the other hand is a malignant cancer; both are equally bad instances of discrimination but thier historical developments differ. And I find the extreme cruelty of trapping africans, transporting them chained to the floors of ships for months, and treating them as sub-human creatures, while using the comparatively better looking females as concubines, and even today charging higher interests on loans given to them etc., extremely abominable. In the case of castes, at least the hindus have no history of zealously trapping the dalits in order to exploit them for generations.

I would not hesitate to call SV as a misobrahman if he has spelt out anti-brahmin comments at every available opportunity as Smt. HH seems to be doing here. But, for that single comment viz., Well then, the Brahmin must suck out his own poison, I don't think it will be fair to judge him as a person pre-disposed towards blaming brahmins whenever a chance came for him to speak.

Anyway, it is my considered opinion that racism among the general public as it exists today in the U.S. is much more subtle and nuanced, and in this respect it is much more harmful like a silent killer, and not like the casteism we see in India, which is so evident as to be capable of being diagnosed and treated better and cured with proper steps.

I feel the need in this forum is criticism of racism as much as criticism of casteism, even if it will be used by the Brahminists in this forum to justify their own casteism. The need in this forum is relentless criticism of Brahminism/casteism as well as racism and any other type of discrimination, by whatever name called.

 

[prasad1]

Racism was institutionalized and practiced by the dominating group. The majority of the ruling group decided that it was wrong, and the government outlawed it and enforces it strictly at all levels. The society ostracizes any body breaking a law. The media, law enforcement, and the justice system prosecutes the law breakers.
That is effective way to curb racism in public. Private racism or any other discrimination is personal and can not be mandated.

May be that is the only solution of other forms of discrimination.
In US they are adding gender, age, sexual preference, physical challenges, to this category. But all laws are meant to be enforced in public places, jobs, housing etc.

I have yet to see castesim institutionalized in any part of India. Of late it is re-introduced due to politics. If it was such a abhorrent practice why did the majority want it? Who is the majority that wanted to include caste as a criteria?

 

[sangom]

Subrahmanya is a southern deity, not well known in the north. Further my understanding is that is very Dravidian. He is worshiped by all shiva caste.
(When we were approving the installation of Murugan in our temple we had to explain to the surprised by members from nort India that Murugan is not Murga (chicken)LOL).
Is stupidity mandated by religion? Can the government outlaw stupidity? In a democracy (India is better participation than US) no one can force social customs. If anyone is dissatisfied with a given religious custom, they are free to change it, not accept it. If all else fails they can change the religion. People stay in a religion if they think they are getting some benefit out of it.
In the same vain if an individual or a private group practice an abhorrent custom, but within the law, government has no business meddling with the practice.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/ep/snake_bite.htm

Ignorance of some can benefit some smart people. So the smart take advantage of the situation. This is the way it is going to be, it does not matter how loud is your shout. If you do not accept the reality and keep shouting, probably it should be in a padded room.

Shri prasad,

I do not know the legal position in US and India and the differences in such matters as customs of people. But we have the history of the successful banning of 'sati' system in India. Even in contemporary times, I have read reports of some obscure christian faiths not giving medical treatment on the basis of their religious faith, neighbours reporting to police, and police forcefully entering the place, and taking the patient to hospital and registering cases against those who are deemed abettors. So, perhaps the Indian law does not tolerate such obscurantist practices and makes them punishable offences.

The last para is cryptic. what is it that you want to convey pl?

 

[Nara]

....available opportunity as Smt. HH seems to be doing here.

Sangom sir, I am sincerely sorry you made this unnecessary comment about Happy. So what if she does this at every available opportunity? I wish I could do the same as well.

BTW, I appreciate the level of knowledge Happy brings to discussions, even though she gets browbeaten into responding in kind. I appreciate the well documented "minutia" she brings that her opponents cannot refute but only make disparaging comments. I hope she will continue her valuable contributions without getting distracted.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Shri prasad,

I do not know the legal position in US and India and the differences in such matters as customs of people. But we have the history of the successful banning of 'sati' system in India. Even in contemporary times, I have read reports of some obscure christian faiths not giving medical treatment on the basis of their religious faith, neighbours reporting to police, and police forcefully entering the place, and taking the patient to hospital and registering cases against those who are deemed abettors. So, perhaps the Indian law does not tolerate such obscurantist practices and makes them punishable offences.

The last para is cryptic. what is it that you want to convey pl?

Sorry to be so obtuse.
I was just saying that smart people use all means including the ignorance of other for their advantage. It is perfectly legal but sometimes may be unethical.
Shouting against that reality is not going to change the situation.

 

[Govinda]

K,

This is one of the bad effects of the bhakti cult of hinduism, imo, which was instrumental in the vedic system of belief getting supplanted by the so-called vedanta and the proliferation of deities, image worship and so on.

And when some of the bhagavatas do roll, they become parama bhagavatas because they have proved themselves to be "aDiyaarkkum aDiyEn"!

Acc. to vedic/dharma shAstras, they are centered around Hygiene, even among the family members, 'echchil' is frowned upon and a 'No'. The accounts of al-biruni (700A.D), says all the communities grouped to-gether and ate the meal, but no-one can share the left-over and should be buried. Plus, every house-hold should clean up all the dishes at night, and start the day with the cleaned stove. We dont have black-magic/superstitions in vedic religion, except the bearing of fruits of our own karma.

'adiyaarkum adiyEn' is appropriate while serving those bhAgavathAs, with the proper understanding of Self/Supreme Self, and not associated with ego/silly material benefits! Don't demean the spiritual/vedic concepts by associating with the recent silly/ill-logical traditions.

Those acts are by people, who are after silly results/benefits! That one looks like that of Tulu's. There are many silly beliefs/superstitions among many communities, based on their ignorance (mis-interpretations/convenience/Quick-fix), the result of their bad karmas (the in-born society/lack-of knowledge/im-patience/wilderness due to repeatedly consuming wrong foods etc....).

 

[Nara]

....it is interesting to nore that the girl's father supported her and her zimbabwean fiancee.

Here is what the father said:

"And Stella's father was much more forceful in his denunciation of the interracial ban. "It sure ain't Christian," Dean Harville said. "It ain't nothing but the old devil working."

​

For more perspective: Kentucky church bans interracial marriage | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News

 

[prasad1]

Acc. to vedic/dharma shAstras, they are centered around Hygiene, even among the family members, 'echchil' is frowned upon and a 'No'. The accounts of al-biruni (700A.D), says all the communities grouped to-gether and ate the meal, but no-one can share the left-over and should be buried. Plus, every house-hold should clean up all the dishes at night, and start the day with the cleaned stove. We dont have black-magic/superstitions in vedic religion, except the bearing of fruits of our own karma.

'adiyaarkum adiyEn' is appropriate while serving those bhAgavathAs, with the proper understanding of Self/Supreme Self, and not associated with ego/silly material benefits! Don't demean the spiritual/vedic concepts by associating with the recent silly/ill-logical traditions.

Those acts are by people, who are after silly results/benefits! That one looks like that of Tulu's. There are many silly beliefs/superstitions among many communities, based on their ignorance (mis-interpretations/convenience/Quick-fix), the result of their bad karmas (the in-born society/lack-of knowledge/im-patience/wilderness due to repeatedly consuming wrong foods etc....).

Your explanation is factual and to the point. It is unfortunate that in today's cable news world stupidity gets them more rating. The reality shows encourages people to do sillier things. The majority is mired in "undh wiswas" misconceptions, and looking for immediate gratification. They are gullible and like sheep follow their leader without questioning the motives.

Should that be treated as normal, or treated as abnormal. Is that the image of India we want to perpetuate? Should we not educate the misguided, instead of lamenting in sites like this, trying to assign blame? It is easy to assign blame on some third party and pat ourselves for the great job we have done.

 

[happyhindu]

Happy,

You are free to think so, as much as I am free to hold that we should view racism as much evil as caste system is evil.

Dear Sir,

I have already said both racism and casteism are evil, and i see both as one and same. So i wonder what's the issue here.

I have tried my best to convey my position. I feel it is our duty in this web forum which has international readership possible (though this may not actually be happening, however), to record our criticism of racism as we do about casteism. You and perhaps nara, kunjuppu have a different view on this. But that does not mean that I have a "change of heart". The problem with you, it seems to me, is that you tend to jump to quick conclusions and once you conclude, it is difficult to change it. For example you have now concluded that I had a "change of heart", I want the caste system to remain, I am doing obfuscation. These are all unwarranted conclusions and arise because you have not seen difference of opinion and how we can get along even if we hold differing/contrarian views on certain items.

To the best of my knowledge sungas and peshwas were the only "brahmin" dynasties; if you have better info I am always ready to learn from you.

Frankly sir i don't know much about racism. All i understand is that, it is a form of xenophobia by whites against non-whites, an unwillingness to share public and private space with foreigners.

I do not know how widely prevalent racism in the US is, in this day and time. From what have heard and experienced, i wud say americans are one of the most friendliest people on the planet. I appreciate the fact that americans (whites) themselves take the initiative to dispel notions, and remove racism among their people.

Sir, i will gladly criticise racism as a social evil, although i do not know how discussion on racism is going to help change casteist attitude in indians.

If you feel i was mistaken in thinking you have had a change of heart, please do correct me. I felt so because of your posts on this thread. If you say you had no idea about brahmin dynasties, apart from sungas and peshwas, i take your word for it. Although must say am surprised, considering your depth of knowledge and past discussions.

Sir, you are welcome to point out my mistakes, and correct me whereever i have gone wrong. I will gladly stand corrected whatever the issue maybe, made-snana ritual or anything else. However, that does not entitle you to paint a broad-brushed stroke of my nature, that i jump to quick conclusions or that once i conclude it is difficult to change it. Although you are an elderly person, and i am supposed to respect age, i must say such conclusions of yours are far from befitting your age and experience.

I don't. But I also don't think you are addressing your posts to the point in many instances. Very often, you have the knack of bringing in caste upgradation, and how brahmins alone were responsible for this, etc. I also note a tendency of bringing in the history of different Telugu castes/sub-castes and branch off into the usual tirade against brahmins, again for accepting the higher status of this caste or pulling down that caste, etc.

Sir, this is not the first time you are asking me not to talk about telugu castes. What's wrong if i speak of them? What you call tirade against brahmins are documented facts. If you feel am wrong, please correct me with appropriate counter info.

I feel there are very few people who will be interested in such historical minutiae of castes today, including the younger generation people from those very castes. So, in a sense you are rekindling age old caste feelings due to your obsessive pre-occupation with the caste problem, imho.

Younger generation fills up their caste on admission forms. Irrespective of age, people are generally curious to know about their caste origins and issues pertaining to it. A good many people imagine they are kshatriyas but do not know what is a kshatriya, and his role, in the dharmashastras. Contrary to what you say, i get feedback asking me to write more about the origins and issues of various castes.

I beleive the younger generation is mature and sensible, unlike some older generation people who are more emotional and sensitive about caste adherence. I suppose it is natural for folks to be curious about the socio-political scenario of the past. However, in this modern world, people know hardwork, money, values and character is more important than caste.

May be what your grandmother said should be our guidance - don't dig out the past too much; even if you do, keep it at the academic level and don't bring it to general forums like this, and lastly, don't jump to conclusions in haste.

My mom's counsel is wise no doubt. But i do feel sad for superstitions (she has said a few times 'don't say negative things about brahmins, it is a sin'). I do not expect elderly sensitive individuals like her to be able to digest anything that even touches hinduism in any manner.

For that matter, mom cannot accept your points on atheism either. So i suggest we leave it to our individual selves to decide what we prefer to do. If i have to heed to your suggestion, then i may tell you in turn, please keep discussion on atheism at the academic level and do not bring it to general foums and do not jump to conclusions because no one knows how the earliest of molecules started reproducing.

LBNL (last but not least), you are free to hold on to your impressions about me (that I had a "change of heart", I want the caste system to remain, I am doing obfuscation, etc.). But I will be what I am. If you continue to scan through the pages here, and if I have the longevity, you may realize what I mean.

Sir i agree each one of us remains what we are. I will not comment on longevity because irrespective of age, no one knows what we are destained for. Who knows sir i may be gone before you.

Regards.